I have received more PMs and will again answer in public as I think this should be discussed openly. On the other hand I also understand that some people might want to stay in the shadows for now.
---
Subject: Re: Ponzi warning doesn't need the lie
Thank you for your organized reply.
![Smiley](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/smiley.gif)
It turns out that the nextponzi may not have been ran fairly. I don't know for sure as I didn't play, but I also saw your posting on other threads. I only posted on the nextpozni thread and then PM'ed you because I was fed up would seeing you call *everyone* that ever was paid out by a Ponzi a thief. It wasn't a well thought out action.
Yes. I did not think long about it. Its my opinion though and every post here should been seen as such. An opinion someone posts. You argued that I lie by expressing my opinion, well thats your opinion. It certainly was exaggerated.
I do not run a Ponzi and have not set up a site, but I could setup a Ponzi that is 100% fair, I have the skills. Some people setting up these don't really seem to know what they are really doing. A few sites look pretty good, but most are just poor copies of the better sites. However, many sites are using the blockchain and that does leave a record.
Sure, the blockchain leaves a record, but it is not personal. A 100% fair ponzi would require you to prove that you do not play yourself. Proving you did not do something is impossible in this case. If you find a way around this, Id be curious to hear how you do it, among others.
Your valid concern seems to be that the owner of the Ponzi is putting there funds in ahead of everyone else. If that were done it wouldn't be honest, on that I agree. However your posts have called everyone that gets a payout from a Ponzi a thief. That is not true. Saying something that isn't true over and over is a lie.
Saying something that is not true is not always a lie. You say there exist honest ponzis. By the definition of the words thats not possible. I know you talk about something different when you say honest ponzi, but this something has no name. Maybe you can figure one out. Anyway, a joke is not true either, but telling a joke is usually not considered lying.
Think about this, Ponzi schemes are everywhere.
![](https://ip.bitcointalk.org/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.quickmeme.com%2Fimg%2F90%2F90625b2e7e86e123918f4acdc91485bd3fe5aa11e6294ba8c502d1c32d340666.jpg&t=665&c=dTQ2wuKN8TpVIA)
Sorry, I could not resist.
If you are an American and you have family members that collect social security, are they thieves? FICA taxes are enforced by the government and most people have no choice in the matter. That is a far worst injustice than people willfully gambling. If you or I set up a social security system, it would be branded a Ponzi. There can be little doubt of that.
Im not going to argue this for several reasons. First it makes no difference. Lets agree its a ponzi, this does not make the ponzis here any better. Second I dont want to argue politics, especially not american politics, this would easily derail the conversation.
Finally, there are many people that have played these Ponzi sites and have posted they have been paid. There postings are all over the crypto web sites. These people have gambled and have succeeded. They may have been lucky to play when they did, but they claimed they did play and win. Many provide transaction ID's and I have looked at the block chain transactions.
They should leave positive feedback. My negative feedback does not mean much if others give different feedback. Yet, all those running the ponzis have newbie accounts that can not build a solid feedback.
At least the one I looked at in detail appeared to be completely legit. The owner actually booked a 5% fee there and made over 30 BTC in two days, far more that he could have by gaming his own game and those deductions were on the blockchain. The winners of that Ponzi game were not thieves. There are also some posts by people that have lost. I would assume most choose not to post about that. Your standard post was on that sites thread, but I didn't look to see if you posted it.
There was at least one person blindly posting it everywhere. Even in threads that are not ponzis. Anyway, yes I have to admit I did next to no research about the nature of the ponzi when I left the feedback or posted the warning. This is mainly because while I find it hard to believe that someone would willingly play a ponzi there seem to be people that do this. Like you. My warning and my rating however is not directed at those that inform themselves. Anyone that informs themselves would see my rating only confirms they are playing a ponzi. Well if they came for a ponzi, how would that make a difference. The only people I could possibly scare away are those that are not aware how a ponzi works and frankly they should not play a ponzi.
Now if you want to point out that it is risky and probably unintelligent to play one of these Ponzi games, I really couldn't disagree. The only bone I have to pick is your widespread labeling large amounts of people as thieves.
Let me dig them up for the conversation.
#1
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=922591.msg10128470#msg10128470"TruthfulPonzi"
1 received, never paid
https://blockchain.info/address/16KFMBDRAhP5gGgzWBZ2zz5zMHe8HBrNpA#2
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=921221.msg10118175#msg10118175"endponzi.com"
5 received, 3 paid
https://www.blocktrail.com/BTC/address/1CTx8GoX2DUpWpUvcjFSquiTwdH7KFdUTk/transactionsPayment/payout structure suggest scam. As they are not 150%
#3
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=920052.msg10115533#msg10115533"CryptoInvest"
Edited OP, they had a homepage (see my quote)
54 received, 66 paid
old address (8 months), hard to say what is ponzi and what not.
Id say almost nothing came out of the thread as most of the TX are older.
#4
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=920592.msg10113452#msg10113452"24HourPonzzi"
0 received, 0 paid
https://www.blocktrail.com/BTC/address/1BkyicQt4MhKBa4fzNYuguj2CcvLvUu9Vh/transactionsFrankly you seriously hurt your message and image by doing that. Most people easily see how absurd the statement is. If you really care about what you are saying and want to have impact, stick to the truth. That is the way to raise doubts in peoples minds.
Again, I stoped posting the message as I agree it does not help my cause. Its better to educate people in a more calm manner. Blatant posts will not change anything.
Thank you and I do wish you success.
xxx (name removed from quote)
Same to you.
-Sho
---
Another message, from someone else. This message is refering a third person which I will label "zzz" and forth person which I will label "aaa".
---
subject: Hi!
Hey shorena, I was referred to you by zzz (name removed from the quote) after I messaged him regarding this topic. I hope you read carefully and let me know your thoughts
![Smiley](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/smiley.gif)
Hi,
I will do my very best.
I am not saying I am going to do this unless trusted members approve, but what would your opinion be on a small maximum (like .5btc), automatic and instant ponzi game ran by a member like myself and another semi-trusted member on this forum? Myself and another bitcointalk member really want to run an official and trustworthy game on this forum but since so many new sites get their trust ratings ruined from running them it has prevented us greatly.
Honestly? If I see a thread like this I would rate it as any other. I have yet to be convinced that a ponzi can be honest, but I have argued that. I am sure you read it.
It would work so that we can't cheat out users (everything on blockchain and only one transaction at a time, everything is instant even if there aren't any confirmations) and of course we'd be able to give everyone realtime support.
Both of us have positive trust here.
One issue risen by zzz was this:
Well the biggest problem you need to solve is that you and your partner can't send anything to the ponzi to keep it alone. Which is, well, impossible. I stopped giving new ratings but it would be smart to contact aaa and shorena what they think about this.
Personally, I wouldn't do it for profit but rather to keep the program activity up.
What I would do to avoid this flaw is continue reinvesting a portion of my profit (like 20%) until the program dies that way the ending loss doesn't hit members as hard as what it would if i didn't invest.
I wouldn't do it for my own personal gain but yes he is right it is a flaw that is un-preventable even if we wanted to prevent it. There is always that possibility. That's where the trust comes in I suppose.
As I wrote the other person above and as zzz wrote: You would have to prove that you are not participating, which is impossible. I do however support that you refrain from the usual alt accounts which only live as long as the ponzi does.
I want to run it by trusted members before we do anything hence I contacted yourself and zzz. I don't want to piss people off I just want to end the scams and have a place where people can play the ponzi game if they choose to play it, and do it safely.
I hope theymos implements the subboard that was discussed. It could have a sticky that would contain all the information people need to understand what the "games" (sorry for this, but I just dont see it as a game) in this section are about.
Just let me know your opinion. I'm just asking around because I think it would be a good idea to get a site like this going by a semi-trusted/established member rather than a newbie.
Thanks for reading, very much looking forward to your response.
I support the established member approach, but the main problem still exists. Its not provably fair and AFAIK it cant be.
I also dont really see the issue with my ratings. I understand that blatant posts in the ponzi threads might piss some people off. I stopped that. My rating pretty much confirms that you are running a ponzi (if/when you do) and if people are scared away by the red number, frankly they should be as they are apparently unable to click the trust link and see what is behind it. If they cant do that, how do you think could they judge the risks involved in a ponzi? I dont patronize anyone, they are free to send you or any other ponzi as many coins as they want.
If it helps: If theymos creates the new section[1] I will stay away from it.
-Sho
[1]
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=920696.msg10135486#msg10135486erm no I think it was this one:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=923229.msg10135115#msg10135115