Circle of Trust [Game/experiment] -- GAME OVER

[sadpandatech]

I feel something good will stem from this experiment.

~Bruno~

What makes you say that Bruno? A good way to garner trust and the wait for time to strike would be to participate in a few small trades and games like this before pouncing on an unsuspecting victim. This is meaningless because the stake is too low. I give more away than this to panhandlers just taking a walk downtown.

The game rules pretty much rule out anyone that hasn't already acquired some lvl of trust anyhows..

some good things that could come from this experiment;

We can show how much easier and cheaper it is to send money through so many hands compared to banks. (could you imagine wiring money from bank to bank through 100 accounts?)

and across boarders no less.

I'm sure there are more things to be gleaned from such an excercise but my simple mind can't think of them atm. ;p

[sadpandatech]

I feel something good will stem from this experiment.

~Bruno~

What makes you say that Bruno? A good way to garner trust and the wait for time to strike would be to participate in a few small trades and games like this before pouncing on an unsuspecting victim. This is meaningless because the stake is too low. I give more away than this to panhandlers just taking a walk downtown.

The game rules pretty much rule out anyone that hasn't already acquired some lvl of trust anyhows..

I trusted the Bitconica guys, Mark Karpeles, Peter Lambert, Intersango guys, MyBitcoin and on and on and on and on....

some good things that could come from this experiment;

We can show how much easier and cheaper it is to send money through so many hands compared to banks. (could you imagine wiring money from bank to bank through 100 accounts?)

Oh, please. It doesn’t matter how many people you send it to if you can’t trade it without getting ripped off or having to wait weeks or months to get your spendable currency out of the system. I can send an email telling someone I’m mailing them a check in seconds and it doesn’t need to wait for confirmations before it can be read. Neither the email or the btc will be immediately transferrable to fiat.

and across boarders no less.

 I can mail a check across international boundries and I just bought something at Newegg with PayPal and had it delivered to my doorstep the next day with no fee other than shipping cost.

I'm sure there are more things to be gleaned from such an excercise but my simple mind can't think of them atm. ;p

I can't think of them either but if you come across any let me know. I could use something to reestablish my faith.

if it seems so negative to you, Bitcoins that is. Then why the fuck are you here?

[sadpandatech]

I've been here for a long time. We have talked before and even worked on Bitcoin100 together (although you probably don’t remember – the last time we spoke your father just passed away – I’m sorry). I know you’re a good guy and want to see the best in this system. I think I’ve been ripped off one too many times. I’ve become incredibly tainted and I suppose I just want someone to give me a good argument for continuing on. Other than the same rhetoric that I myself have preached for a year and a half I can’t seem to find one. Maybe I just don’t want to think I’ve been doing nothing but working for the electric company (mining).

Yea, we have and I always took you to be a good guy with a lvl head as well. Yea, his passing has kept me from wanting to deal with anything having to do with charity or sick people in general.. :/

I did not realise you had such bad experiences lately. I'm sorry to hear that. I can see where that is especially frustrating when you put in a lot of your own time and energy to help promote something we see as good and beneficial to society.

I had intended to actually draw up a civilied response and have no real excuse for not having done so, I apologize for that. Keep your head up, m8. We all know that Bitcoin can and will change the way people think of 'money' but it unfortunatly is not capable of changing the people. Both good and bad.

Regards,
 Derek

[Otoh]

The fact that it is a small sum, under $10 makes it all the more interesting, if ppl also posted how they would convert it to their local fiat & how long this would take & at what cost then that too would be of interest I think.

For me I would either sell it on Intersango & withdraw to my UK bank account, this normally takes a day & hopefully in the future would be much faster (under 2 hours & free) if they can automate it with their bank, as it would be a small withdrawal - under GBP 100 then there's a GBP 0.20 fee which isn't excessive.

Alternatively if I wish to send it in dollars to my US bank account then I would sell it on Mt. Gox & withdraw to my Dwolla account then from there send to my US bank account, I can't remember if there's a fee for this but if so it's probably like $0.25 or something & as I've only used Dwolla for deposits I'm not sure of the time that takes but obviously there are other faster ways to get $ cash at a higher fee/commission rate so it would be interesting to hear ppls alternatives, like P2P exchange etc.

I actually live in mainland Europe & could sell on Intersango or some other Euro-centric exchange then withdraw in Euros via SEPA, which is meant to be fast & either free or cheap though I haven't tried this as yet & haven't looked up the details.

[nimda]

It is just as easy to get scammed with PayPal as it is with Bitcoin. The only difference is that with PayPal, the merchant takes the risk. I know this from firsthand experience.

[nimda]

No, the merchant should not take the risk. The reason for that being that the merchant is generally more trusted. Here's my logic:

Imagine that you are in #bitcoin-otc selling ice cream coupons. You've been doing this for years.
Some new person joins the channel and asks you to send first. Do you? Of course not.
A helpful channel resident explains to the new person that you have a flawless rating, and thus the new person sends first.
(This actually happens very frequently, minus the "ice cream" part)

In this perfectly reasonable, oft-occuring example, the merchant did not take the risk; the buyer did. Had the merchant taken the risk, the new person would, with a high probability, have run off with the ice cream without paying. Given that this is the internet, "drive-offs" (pumping gas then driving off without paying) are hard to pursue / prosecute.

The problem seems to arise when the "poor broke bastard" leaves his money with the merchant. The merchant provides no evidence of collateral or any real reason for the poor bastard to leave the money with him. Keep your coins in your own (brain/paper/offline/etc)wallet, where they are actually safe. Take them out for transactions, and don't lend/deposit them with merchants without good reason. The merchants/deposit-takers are not FDIC-insured If people didn't use MtGox/etc as an e-wallet, then MtGox wouldn't be able to run off with nearly as much money.

If a Bitcoin user does decide to "deposit" his/her coins with any third party, for any reason (e-wallet, exchange, good interest rates) then he/she must consider it a "loan," not a "deposit." The user is loaning his/her bitcoins out, and must make sure that he/she can get them back later. Just because transactions are pseudonymous does not mean that the whole business needs to be; just because the gov't doesn't force KYC on every Bitcoin business doesn't mean that due diligence is prohibited.

[dooglus]

Yes, but the merchant should take the risk. They are there to make the money. It's backwards here. In Bitcoin it seems like the little poor broke bastard has to pay the price while the Goxes get richer.

The problem is that the merchant doesn't end up paying the cost of chargebacks, his honest customers do.  The merchant calculates the cost of chargebacks and increases his prices to cover that cost.

[nimda]

CornedBeefHash:
While I have sold things for PayPal and gotten burned (one guy/gal claimed it was broken on arrival -- yeah, it and the bubble-wrap packaging ) I have yet to be burned while taking the risk as a buyer. I mailed cash out the other day (in exchange for BTC) and it just wouldn't make sense (for the merchant) to trash the merchant's perfect ratings by scamming me.
You listed examples like MyBitcoin/Bitcoinica etc, but those all fall under my previous statement that you let them hold your money. Don't do that. Have you ever been scammed as a buyer in a transaction when dealing with someone reputed?

[nimda]

Again, just because Bitcoin isn't gov't backed doesn't mean that crimes are can't be prosecuted. Just because there are no KYC laws for it doesn't mean that it has to be perfectly anonymous. Just because there is no recourse requirement doesn't mean that the customer can't demand collateral.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Did this not reach 100 transactions yet?

~Bruno~

[dooglus]

Last I heard it was with RyNinDaCleM, step 36.

[RyNinDaCleM]

Last I heard it was with RyNinDaCleM, step 36.

Yep, I still have it! I've been checking for days to hand it off, but no one wants it apparently. If there isn't anyone by say, Friday 27th of July, I'm sending it back to Garr. I will have had it for two weeks at that point, and see no reason to keep it any longer than that.

[hongus]

I would take it but I don't meet the reqs :\

[RyNinDaCleM]

I would take it but I don't meet the reqs :\

Why not? You're a full member! The only thing you're missing is an address.
You have 5 hrs and 41 mins to respond or it gets sent to Garr at the addy in the OP.
What are you still reading for? GO!  

[hongus]

Okay. Here's the address 1APyqdvGMvjfEMPKCo3oHSJ4CkJuXhTCy1

[RyNinDaCleM]

1)Garr255 - 189JHV6KPzvnPmjYCGPbvMMmZUWppere7h #2
2)the joint - 17EVRSvdPJGhk7uKHCpY9ghnWnx7j3pPAs #3
3)sadpandatech - 13YmfB6TeLzyCdnwsVZ5MdYVCLnfm5eNGF #4
4)nimda - 1KiZGitw2zEr4uPzZsT7dh7F6e5yoKGvE7 #5
5)Al the Alpaca - 1EWRJ5BeibZxMguujPLzqM8WWiHpFJtLLx #6
6)pirateat40 - 1CR5BadHQt8wd4t98mE4rw9hUfSGQ4ZGDg #19
7)rjk - 17qypELtTKqr716m937wLWbapnFG6i4fyZ #20
8)NothinG - 1BjMLLGrwYk3hrcnSqEUEeGchkx9tiykfY #21
9)PatrickHarnett - 1KwECAhJGr8BPGgn6mezf5Z3jT7vG1HaAZ #27
10)pekv2 - 12NcNYb2oEh6ANo95AakEjPqQdgbcxh4m9 #32
11)unclemantis - 12kM9BocNb5zSG7RMKp9wPxopK5NpayrMZ #34
12)mb300sd - 1HVmv5EtQZtcsFfXe6Crz972BrB1MwsNCM #39
13)rudrigorc2 - 1MSPwixhqiwMLXxw3WXtNjg2nst6qVWhCX #44
14)Brunic - 16Hz2xA4NmAp4CU3Mr9aJy8H9D5XqXupHG #49
15)fatigue - 1Fj4QZbavJeKfagjDqUPFqQ4iJ4bHqFAMG #52
16)Phraust - 15UJrPbxd6ULPJaxASUoWUp6xc473T7mww #88
17)adamstgBit - 15nutdfqcS38hXdZoL7LNz5wBt8Aq4wCUT #89
18)bluefirecorp - 1PsQ8qFp6ZY94gXvFLP4cqcmoLQSDCqLJc #90
19)Drakahn - 1C1UMHsdPxgsWGWBhdaTC47kibJjFgWnhb #91
20)Gladamas - 1FVySmZNZ6LUvz1mKkt9zgRWjBzvkM4Roh #92
21)phantitox - 1GtGFJskG47Q6Q1NFsfMLWfNV9ivabbyab #93
22)John (johnthedong) - 1Cm2ymVqiHA42jv31rtyze684oWTDkreza (instawallet addy, DON't REUSE)  #98
23)Keefe - 1BZy1xxwcxQyRZErcYUFke72TSU7cV5Ptf #107
24)Otoh - 1G5apmPvo2iTtmkNWAHTCET7Y842Ufijs8 #110
25)[Tycho] - 1VayNert3x1KzbpzMGt2qdqrAThiRovi8 (please provide TX hash when sending) (tx) #75
26)Dalkore - 12SSYCcvaHadm8Myxb3mUTzyv96VNhyzeZ #67
27)payb.tc - 14no5MUE4ur2gyyEE3BHpHhV82gKm8NLbH #133
28)damnek - 17xbiU6EWdaf74rmwxPv9AQZc1MeKMWh5n #115
29)Tril - 1Xgeo7EQgrk22paxmKVrhNVSmauczL6EE #117
30)Scott J - 18UVSvCAb6QGjPSdiXxveeu56ujmu3kTt4 #118
31)honest bob - 14x3n2ntSAGN4gGvGoLhi6NbUuuoWwvfdL #140
32)giszmo - 1KLYFWyv5aeci2PwJQs9aTRN1JRzDDL96o #143
33)arklan - 1F4j4Lha8BjL4wxwFVbGaQwMJ4Kd1brfXb #145
34)dooglus - 1BooBz2AEwUd6JepB7NhNsnAe58Q6obpcu #159
35)riX - 155gBnpiBQcpnP6coTX6V7znSK3G73uNjK #160 - has the coin(s)
36)RyNinDaCleM - 1Bgi9fX1TD9cnuzBvWGLfm7D7sNVEq96UU #175
37)hongus - 1APyqdvGMvjfEMPKCo3oHSJ4CkJuXhTCy1 #251
...
101) Return to Sender - 18dktRf1EYbyaYTkSSZJiacBmCemxwWdqm #1

Sent 2.0801337BTC to hongus!

[hongus]

1)Garr255 - 189JHV6KPzvnPmjYCGPbvMMmZUWppere7h #2
2)the joint - 17EVRSvdPJGhk7uKHCpY9ghnWnx7j3pPAs #3
3)sadpandatech - 13YmfB6TeLzyCdnwsVZ5MdYVCLnfm5eNGF #4
4)nimda - 1KiZGitw2zEr4uPzZsT7dh7F6e5yoKGvE7 #5
5)Al the Alpaca - 1EWRJ5BeibZxMguujPLzqM8WWiHpFJtLLx #6
6)pirateat40 - 1CR5BadHQt8wd4t98mE4rw9hUfSGQ4ZGDg #19
7)rjk - 17qypELtTKqr716m937wLWbapnFG6i4fyZ #20
8)NothinG - 1BjMLLGrwYk3hrcnSqEUEeGchkx9tiykfY #21
9)PatrickHarnett - 1KwECAhJGr8BPGgn6mezf5Z3jT7vG1HaAZ #27
10)pekv2 - 12NcNYb2oEh6ANo95AakEjPqQdgbcxh4m9 #32
11)unclemantis - 12kM9BocNb5zSG7RMKp9wPxopK5NpayrMZ #34
12)mb300sd - 1HVmv5EtQZtcsFfXe6Crz972BrB1MwsNCM #39
13)rudrigorc2 - 1MSPwixhqiwMLXxw3WXtNjg2nst6qVWhCX #44
14)Brunic - 16Hz2xA4NmAp4CU3Mr9aJy8H9D5XqXupHG #49
15)fatigue - 1Fj4QZbavJeKfagjDqUPFqQ4iJ4bHqFAMG #52
16)Phraust - 15UJrPbxd6ULPJaxASUoWUp6xc473T7mww #88
17)adamstgBit - 15nutdfqcS38hXdZoL7LNz5wBt8Aq4wCUT #89
18)bluefirecorp - 1PsQ8qFp6ZY94gXvFLP4cqcmoLQSDCqLJc #90
19)Drakahn - 1C1UMHsdPxgsWGWBhdaTC47kibJjFgWnhb #91
20)Gladamas - 1FVySmZNZ6LUvz1mKkt9zgRWjBzvkM4Roh #92
21)phantitox - 1GtGFJskG47Q6Q1NFsfMLWfNV9ivabbyab #93
22)John (johnthedong) - 1Cm2ymVqiHA42jv31rtyze684oWTDkreza (instawallet addy, DON't REUSE)  #98
23)Keefe - 1BZy1xxwcxQyRZErcYUFke72TSU7cV5Ptf #107
24)Otoh - 1G5apmPvo2iTtmkNWAHTCET7Y842Ufijs8 #110
25)[Tycho] - 1VayNert3x1KzbpzMGt2qdqrAThiRovi8 (please provide TX hash when sending) (tx) #75
26)Dalkore - 12SSYCcvaHadm8Myxb3mUTzyv96VNhyzeZ #67
27)payb.tc - 14no5MUE4ur2gyyEE3BHpHhV82gKm8NLbH #133
28)damnek - 17xbiU6EWdaf74rmwxPv9AQZc1MeKMWh5n #115
29)Tril - 1Xgeo7EQgrk22paxmKVrhNVSmauczL6EE #117
30)Scott J - 18UVSvCAb6QGjPSdiXxveeu56ujmu3kTt4 #118
31)honest bob - 14x3n2ntSAGN4gGvGoLhi6NbUuuoWwvfdL #140
32)giszmo - 1KLYFWyv5aeci2PwJQs9aTRN1JRzDDL96o #143
33)arklan - 1F4j4Lha8BjL4wxwFVbGaQwMJ4Kd1brfXb #145
34)dooglus - 1BooBz2AEwUd6JepB7NhNsnAe58Q6obpcu #159
35)riX - 155gBnpiBQcpnP6coTX6V7znSK3G73uNjK #160 - has the coin(s)
36)RyNinDaCleM - 1Bgi9fX1TD9cnuzBvWGLfm7D7sNVEq96UU #175
37)hongus - 1APyqdvGMvjfEMPKCo3oHSJ4CkJuXhTCy1 #251
...
101) Return to Sender - 18dktRf1EYbyaYTkSSZJiacBmCemxwWdqm #1

Sent 2.0801337BTC to hongus!

Got it.

[hongus]

So whos taking it next? I dont want to hold this. Too tempting to spend :\

[OneEyed]

So whos taking it next? I dont want to hold this. Too tempting to spend :\

Too bad I'm not a full member yet, I would have participated.

[flatfly]

Joining... Address in my sig

EDIT: Received.