I'm fucking out. bitcoin will be over soon..confirmed.

[mmsmears]

bitcoin's obituary
further proofs

Just because the price is going down? Many stocks go down then recover especially when they are stocks of a new high tech company. Bitcoin is still in business!

Bitcoin is supposed to be a currency not a stock.

[nizamcc]

bitcoin's obituary
further proofs

Just because the price is going down? Many stocks go down then recover especially when they are stocks of a new high tech company. Bitcoin is still in business!

Bitcoin is supposed to be a currency not a stock.

Unless people actually use it, it will be seen as a stock

[mmsmears]

bitcoin's obituary
further proofs

Just because the price is going down? Many stocks go down then recover especially when they are stocks of a new high tech company. Bitcoin is still in business!

Bitcoin is supposed to be a currency not a stock.

Unless people actually use it, it will be seen as a stock

It’s no wonder why mainstream people are scared of bitcoin.  There’s such a mix of speculators treating BTC like a commodity investment & purists that want mainstream adoption as an everyday currency.  “News flash” it can only do one function well, it’s either a growth investment or a currency.  To attract new major venture capital investment, bitcoin needs to be volatile and have room for rapid growth.  For mainstream people to adopt it as an everyday currency, it needs to be moderately stable.

To be widely accepted, bitcoin needs to settle down. People want their currency value to remain fairly stable, not fluctuate wildly like a commodity stock.  Imagine if your paycheck was paid only in bitcoins and you would gain or loose 35% of it's value week to week.  Currently you still have to convert to fiat $ to pay bills.  Would your utility company, landlord or mortgage company deal with +/- 35% weekly value fluctuations?   Would you be able to pay your rent, mortgage, car & health insurance or buy groceries? Sorry kids, we don't eat this week:(

“Bitcoin was a genius invention, but its implementation became corrupted by people whose aim was to make money – not bitcoins, but dollars.” ~ BCnext

[LiteCoinGuy]

damn, i sold all BTC at 180 USD   - now iam panic buying!

I sold a bunch at lows like that twice. I finally learned my lesson and became a permabull.

well, actually that was a joke and i bought alot  

-----------

@mmsmears

btc will not be stable for a loooong time. but that is not a problem. there is already a service called "LOCKS" which basically locks the btc value. other services will add similar things and make btc stable.

Are you talking about the "Locks" service provided by Panama-based bitcoin wallet provider Coinapult?  

If so my BS meter is flashing RED.  They would have to have significant assets to cover the extreme recent BTC price fluctuations.  

There's a reason companies setup in Panama, the Fed's can't easily haul them in for fraud.  

that is what iam talking about. best solution so far. you can also use some financial products (hedge) for this kind of stuff.

do you have a better solution for that problem  ?

[loszhor]

Love the obit site! Markets can be scary for some plus half of the battle in trading is psychological.

[inigthz]

So, how are you bitcoin ?? 

[mmsmears]

damn, i sold all BTC at 180 USD   - now iam panic buying!

I sold a bunch at lows like that twice. I finally learned my lesson and became a permabull.

well, actually that was a joke and i bought alot  

-----------

@mmsmears

btc will not be stable for a loooong time. but that is not a problem. there is already a service called "LOCKS" which basically locks the btc value. other services will add similar things and make btc stable.

Are you talking about the "Locks" service provided by Panama-based bitcoin wallet provider Coinapult?  

If so my BS meter is flashing RED.  They would have to have significant assets to cover the extreme recent BTC price fluctuations.  

There's a reason companies setup in Panama, the Fed's can't easily haul them in for fraud.  

that is what iam talking about. best solution so far. you can also use some financial products (hedge) for this kind of stuff.

do you have a better solution for that problem   ?

Do you really call "Coinapult" a solution?  Do you seriously think that they really could survive holding a 79% loss on the books for over 6 months & still be able to pay commitments?
To (hedge) a 79% loss you need an alternative income source to support it.  Located in Panama, I imagine they have so many other alternate income streams, really?
I wouldn't count on them fulfilling their commitments when the BTC price fluctuates wildly.


Coinapult: TOS
Locking your Bitcoins
You may choose to “lock” a certain amount of bitcoins in accordance with these Terms (the “Fixed Bitcoins”). When you “lock” your bitcoins, you are converting your Fixed Bitcoins into the right to receive a future amount of bitcoins based upon a future offered rate. We do not offer exchange services, and you are only entitled to receive bitcoins from us as set forth in these Terms.

Locking Quote
Before “locking” your Fixed Bitcoins, you will obtain a quote of the locking value of the Fixed Bitcoins corresponding to the value assigned by our system to an underlying asset or currency. Coinapult will communicate a time window to accept the quote for locking your Fixed Bitcoins into Variable Bitcoins.

Actual Locking
After having received a locking value for a certain amount of Fixed Bitcoins, you may accept the quote. After your acceptance of the quote described above, subject to these Terms, your Fixed Bitcoins will be converted into the right to receive a future amount of variable bitcoins corresponding to the quoted underlying asset or currency value (the “Variable Bitcoins”). By accepting the quote, you are further authorizing Coinapult to display a Variable Bitcoin balance in your wallet corresponding to the underlying asset value of your Fixed Bitcoins at the time of the lock.



 

[pawel7777]

Do you really call "Coinapult" a solution?  Do you seriously think that they really could survive holding a 79% loss on the books for over 6 months & still be able to pay commitments?
To (hedge) a 79% loss you need an alternative income source to support it.  Located in Panama, I imagine they have so many other alternate income streams, really?
I wouldn't count on them fulfilling their commitments when the BTC price fluctuates wildly.

79% of what?

Anyhow, if you're concerned about their business model just ask them directly to explain it to you (before declaring them insolvent). IIRC they're active on this forum.

And they're not the only business that offers such service:

http://www.coindesk.com/first-glimpse-inside-halsey-minors-new-payments-platform-bitreserve/

https://bitreserve.org/en/homepage

https://bitreserve.org/en/status

BitReserve have offices in US and Shanghai, if Panama is not good for you.

ps I don't use neither Coinapult or Bitreserve, so I cannot vouch for any of them.

[Trent Russell]

Coinapult doesn't need to lose money based on the bitcoin price. They charge a fee when someone uses 'locks'. If someone signs up, sends 1 bitcoin and locks it at $250 (or whatever the market price is), then all coinapult has to do is sell 1 bitcoin on an exchange for $250. When someone 'unlocks' they buy back $250 worth of bitcoin on an exchange. They can profit from the fees each time and need take no risk. This is a bit obvious, of course, so I'm skeptical that anyone doesn't know this.

As for being based in Panama, that makes me trust them a lot more. If there were providing a useful service while being located in the U.S., they'd either need to have friends in high places or they'd be shut down. At least being in Panama forces the U.S. agents to make a small international incident out of it.

If you'd prefer a solution based in the U.S. and you're a United Station (I can't imagine a non-USan prefering such a thing), then you could start one yourself. There's clearly a market for it, so you could make money off the fees. (Realistically, of course, it would cost a lot to start up and then they'd shut you down and possibly put you in prison, but hey, freedom isn't free.)

[mmsmears]

Do you really call "Coinapult" a solution?  Do you seriously think that they really could survive holding a 79% loss on the books for over 6 months & still be able to pay commitments?
To (hedge) a 79% loss you need an alternative income source to support it.  Located in Panama, I imagine they have so many other alternate income streams, really?
I wouldn't count on them fulfilling their commitments when the BTC price fluctuates wildly.

79% of what?

Anyhow, if you're concerned about their business model just ask them directly to explain it to you (before declaring them insolvent). IIRC they're active on this forum.

And they're not the only business that offers such service:

http://www.coindesk.com/first-glimpse-inside-halsey-minors-new-payments-platform-bitreserve/

https://bitreserve.org/en/homepage

https://bitreserve.org/en/status

BitReserve have offices in US and Shanghai, if Panama is not good for you.

ps I don't use neither Coinapult or Bitreserve, so I cannot vouch for any of them.

79% of what?  The high bitcoin price $1,200 to $250 = 79% decrease

I didn't declare them insolvent, I just don't trust any company offering a guaranteed BTC to $ return especially when you read the TOS.

I had a roommate from Panama that said that for enough $$$$ you could essentially do what ever you wanted as long as the right people were paid off.

Now back to my original problem with bitcoin volatility.   

To be widely accepted, bitcoin needs to settle down. People want their currency value to remain fairly stable, not fluctuate wildly like a commodity stock.  Imagine if your paycheck was paid only in bitcoins and you would gain or loose 35% of it's value week to week.  Currently you still have to convert to fiat $ to pay bills.  Would your utility company, landlord or mortgage company deal with +/- 35% weekly value fluctuations?   Would you be able to pay your rent, mortgage, car & health insurance or buy groceries? Sorry kids, we don't eat this week:(

[Bagatell]

Now back to my original problem with bitcoin volatility.   

I Love Bitcoin’s Volatility

http://nakamotoinstitute.org/mempool/i-love-bitcoins-volatility/

[Trent Russell]

Do you really call "Coinapult" a solution?  Do you seriously think that they really could survive holding a 79% loss on the books for over 6 months & still be able to pay commitments?
To (hedge) a 79% loss you need an alternative income source to support it.  Located in Panama, I imagine they have so many other alternate income streams, really?
I wouldn't count on them fulfilling their commitments when the BTC price fluctuates wildly.

79% of what?

79% of what?  The high bitcoin price $1,200 to $250 = 79% decrease

I explained above why a loss (or gain) in bitcoin relative to the locked currency does not imply a loss on the books for the service. (It's not complicated.) For some reason you're still pretending that a 79% loss in the price of bitcoin relative to the USD implies the service provider has a 79% loss on the books. Now the question is: what is your motive in pretending that?

[mmsmears]

Now back to my original problem with bitcoin volatility.   

I Love Bitcoin’s Volatility

http://nakamotoinstitute.org/mempool/i-love-bitcoins-volatility/

Bitcoin is supposed to be a currency not a stock.

[Trent Russell]

I explained above why a loss (or gain) in bitcoin relative to the locked currency does not imply a loss on the books for the service. (It's not complicated.) For some reason you're still pretending that a 79% loss in the price of bitcoin relative to the USD implies the service provider has a 79% loss on the books. Now the question is: what is your motive in pretending that?

Maybe I'm wrong about it not being complicated. Buying and selling BTC to account for locks without speculating on the price seems obvious to me.

Maybe the obvious way most people would implement locks is something like: "I got a great idea! I'll take someone's bitcoin and give them an IOU for $250 worth of bitcoin. Then I'll hope the price goes up so I can pay them back and make a profit!"

The second way sounds, well, I'm tempted to say retarded, but that's just too insulting to retarded people. I seriously think most retarded people could see the second way is a bad business plan.

[CoinRocka]

bitcoin's obituary
further proofs

Just because the price is going down? Many stocks go down then recover especially when they are stocks of a new high tech company. Bitcoin is still in business!

Bitcoin is supposed to be a currency not a stock.

Its both. Wait for it.

[pawel7777]

79% of what?  The high bitcoin price $1,200 to $250 = 79% decrease

That's the price decrease, not company's loss.
Trent Russell already answered that but you ignored it.

I didn't declare them insolvent, I just don't trust any company offering a guaranteed BTC to $ return especially when you read the TOS.

No one asks you to trust them. Again, if you're concerned about their model you should ask them to clarify in the first place. Did you bother to do it?

I had a roommate from Panama that said that for enough $$$$ you could essentially do what ever you wanted as long as the right people were paid off.

That could be applied to any country, the definition of "enough $$$$" will vary tho.
Still, Panama being corrupted doesn't mean every business registered there is automatically a fraud.

Now back to my original problem with bitcoin volatility.   

To be widely accepted, bitcoin needs to settle down. People want their currency value to remain fairly stable, not fluctuate wildly like a commodity stock.  Imagine if your paycheck was paid only in bitcoins and you would gain or loose 35% of it's value week to week.  Currently you still have to convert to fiat $ to pay bills.  Would your utility company, landlord or mortgage company deal with +/- 35% weekly value fluctuations?   Would you be able to pay your rent, mortgage, car & health insurance or buy groceries? Sorry kids, we don't eat this week:(

Price averaging. Your kids will eat in " -35% week" if you saved a surplus from "+35% week".

Volatility is inevitable in the early stages. What do you suggest? Pegging it to USD?

[picolo]

Now back to my original problem with bitcoin volatility.   

I Love Bitcoin’s Volatility

http://nakamotoinstitute.org/mempool/i-love-bitcoins-volatility/

Bitcoin is supposed to be a currency not a stock.

It could be a stock or a store of value.

[mmsmears]

Do you really call "Coinapult" a solution?  Do you seriously think that they really could survive holding a 79% loss on the books for over 6 months & still be able to pay commitments?
To (hedge) a 79% loss you need an alternative income source to support it.  Located in Panama, I imagine they have so many other alternate income streams, really?
I wouldn't count on them fulfilling their commitments when the BTC price fluctuates wildly.

79% of what?

79% of what?  The high bitcoin price $1,200 to $250 = 79% decrease

I explained above why a loss (or gain) in bitcoin relative to the locked currency does not imply a loss on the books for the service. (It's not complicated.) For some reason you're still pretending that a 79% loss in the price of bitcoin relative to the USD implies the service provider has a 79% loss on the books. Now the question is: what is your motive in pretending that?

You’re right,

To my knowledge Coinapult is not currently carrying any loss on the books until they commit.  They are locking BTC to a current BTC=fiat trade value.

In their Actual Locking TOS:  “After your acceptance of the quote described above, subject to these Terms, your Fixed Bitcoins will be converted into the right to receive a future amount of variable bitcoins corresponding to the quoted underlying asset or currency value (the “Variable Bitcoins”).”

What will the value of the “Variable Bitcoins” be?

Considering the current wild fluctuations in BTC, it concerns me that any company offering this service is exposing themselves to a significant risk even in a 24hr period from offer to acceptance.

Taking into account the past few months of volatility. They have to maintain significant assets to cover the extreme recent BTC price fluctuations.

[mmsmears]

79% of what?  The high bitcoin price $1,200 to $250 = 79% decrease

That's the price decrease, not company's loss.
Trent Russell already answered that but you ignored it.

I didn't declare them insolvent, I just don't trust any company offering a guaranteed BTC to $ return especially when you read the TOS.

No one asks you to trust them. Again, if you're concerned about their model you should ask them to clarify in the first place. Did you bother to do it?

I had a roommate from Panama that said that for enough $$$$ you could essentially do what ever you wanted as long as the right people were paid off.

That could be applied to any country, the definition of "enough $$$$" will vary tho.
Still, Panama being corrupted doesn't mean every business registered there is automatically a fraud.

Now back to my original problem with bitcoin volatility.   

To be widely accepted, bitcoin needs to settle down. People want their currency value to remain fairly stable, not fluctuate wildly like a commodity stock.  Imagine if your paycheck was paid only in bitcoins and you would gain or loose 35% of it's value week to week.  Currently you still have to convert to fiat $ to pay bills.  Would your utility company, landlord or mortgage company deal with +/- 35% weekly value fluctuations?   Would you be able to pay your rent, mortgage, car & health insurance or buy groceries? Sorry kids, we don't eat this week:(

Price averaging. Your kids will eat in " -35% week" if you saved a surplus from "+35% week".

Volatility is inevitable in the early stages. What do you suggest? Pegging it to USD?

Price averaging is not practical when you have no idea how high or low it can go.  As you can see by the 2014 charts, your guess is as good as anyone's.

The current situation is a clear example of problems the Bitcoin network will face in the future. Miners only continue to operate when it’s profitable. Bitcoin value will always be tied to operating costs of people, equipment, facilities & energy.

Will their be enough individuals running long term hashing power to support network transactions when mining is over?  What will their operating costs be? 

Will the system eventually transform into something centralized that will charge transaction fees to support operating costs?  Which would be very similar to the banking system that we have today but without Government backing.

[pawel7777]

Considering the current wild fluctuations in BTC, it concerns me that any company offering this service is exposing themselves to a significant risk even in a 24hr period from offer to acceptance.

Taking into account the past few months of volatility. They have to maintain significant assets to cover the extreme recent BTC price fluctuations.

Again, I don't know what their actual model is. But assuming they're selling BTC in the same time as you decided to 'lock' then the exposure is few seconds rather than 24 hours. If that's the way they do that, the risk is non-existent.

Price averaging is not practical when you have no idea how high or low it can go.  As you can see by the 2014 charts, your guess is as good as anyone's.

The current situation is a clear example of problems the Bitcoin network will face in the future. Miners only continue to operate when it’s profitable. Bitcoin value will always be tied to operating costs of people, equipment, facilities & energy.

Will their be enough individuals running long term hashing power to support network transactions when mining is over?  What will their operating costs be? 

Will the system eventually transform into something centralized that will charge transaction fees to support operating costs?  Which would be very similar to the banking system that we have today but without Government backing.

I'm not saying that price averaging is practical or safe, but it's yet just another way to protect yourself from volatility.

As for mining - no one can predict the future. But it's a self regulated system (less miners, diff goes down, profitable again). Also, I wouldn't be surprised if in future some of the large BTC related companies will be mining just to secure the network. If their profit is grater than loss on mining - it still would make sense (in financial terms) for them to do it.

And it will never be centralised (Central Bank style) as long as anyone is free to start mining or running a node.