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Author Topic: Why I think neither Ethereum and AT are going to be the future of blockchains  (Read 2150 times)
CIYAM
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January 17, 2015, 02:54:52 PM
 #1

Whilst there is a lot of excitement about the possibilites of "Turing complete" blockchain transactions that are supported by Ethereum and AT (the latter being my own invention) after studying how these work I have come to the conclusion that they are just not going to really scale up to provide us with a "new internet" (which is what I have now come to think of as being the main goal that blockchains should be used for).

If you think of how things like this forum work today (via HTTP/HTTPS) you create a forum post by effectively populating a form with values that gets turned into a HTTP/HTTPS POST request for the server to then turn into a DB operation (after performing validation).

But both Ethereum and AT instead are actually working more like low-level machines (either a Java VM in the case of Ethereum or a virtual CPU in the case of AT) which are very inefficient in comparison to something like HTTP with a web server backend that uses say FCGI.

They have to work this way as otherwise you could create a very simple program like this following:

Code:
while( true )
 str = str + str;

that will run your computer out of memory (causing it to either crash or become completely unresponsive) unless the fees to execute more than X amount of steps are high enough.

But is there another way?

Yes - I designed a concept called Software Manufacturing (http://ciyam.org/open/?cmd=view&data=20121221010507352000_P&ident=M100V112&chksum=b3d538bf) many years ago (which works in a somewhat similar manner to Charles Simonyi's project called "Intentional Software").

In Software Manufacturing the above pseudo code would have to be divided into two components - a looping specification and a separate specification that covers what to do within the loop. As all source code is "generated" you can't stop the resulting code from effectively being something like this:

Code:
while( true )
{
   if( str.length( ) > c_max_allowed )
      throw runtime_error( "str too big" );

    str = str + str;
}

This is not something you can do using either Ethereum or AT as they are simply not high level enough but this is something that can be easily be done using Software Manufacturing (as you have no choice).

Using such a high level approach means that rather than bothering each node with putting a VM or virtual CPU between the network and the DB you can just put in the functional operations themselves (which would look more like SQL statements than machine code).

This will scale to at least the level we have today in regards to internet applications and this is what CIYAM is currently developing.

If you'd like to learn a bit more about what exactly Software Manufacting is then a quick introduction can be found here: http://ciyam.org/docs/methodology.html.

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

GPG Public Key | 1ciyam3htJit1feGa26p2wQ4aw6KFTejU
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inBitweTrust
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January 17, 2015, 03:01:06 PM
 #2

While I appreciate the project and love Vitalik's research, Ethereum appears to be an act of supererogation with the burden of added inefficiencies which could be carried out by one or multiple oracles.

http://gavintech.blogspot.com/2014/06/bit-thereum.html


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January 17, 2015, 03:03:12 PM
 #3

and even if Ethereum would be a better system, they dont get traction.

it would be much better if they would work with BTC instead of this project  Undecided

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January 17, 2015, 03:06:14 PM
 #4

it would be much better if they would work with BTC instead of this project  Undecided

Yes - that I think is an important point - CIYAM is not about trying to create a new "currency" so in fact it will be able to work with Bitcoin (there is already a Wallet package).

The vision that CIYAM has for blockchains is for a new internet but there is no reason that Bitcoin shouldn't be the main "store of value" (or general financial transaction mechanism) in the new internet.

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

GPG Public Key | 1ciyam3htJit1feGa26p2wQ4aw6KFTejU
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January 17, 2015, 05:57:14 PM
 #5

Whilst there is a lot of excitement about the possibilites of "Turing complete" blockchain transactions that are supported by Ethereum and AT (the latter being my own invention)
Shameless plug / Product placement
CIYAM
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Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer


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January 17, 2015, 05:58:28 PM
 #6

Whilst there is a lot of excitement about the possibilites of "Turing complete" blockchain transactions that are supported by Ethereum and AT (the latter being my own invention)
Shameless plug / Product placement

AT is an open source and free product - so okay call it a plug but I don't make a cent from anyone using it (and it is in fact the first Turing complete system to be running on a mainnet).

And why should I be ashamed of it?

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

GPG Public Key | 1ciyam3htJit1feGa26p2wQ4aw6KFTejU
cellard
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January 17, 2015, 06:03:12 PM
 #7

MaidSafe will lead the way into true decentralization.

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CIYAM
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January 17, 2015, 06:04:58 PM
 #8

MaidSafe will lead the way into true decentralization.

I think it is another great idea - it is probably just going to be a question of which works best.

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

GPG Public Key | 1ciyam3htJit1feGa26p2wQ4aw6KFTejU
freequant
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January 17, 2015, 06:06:56 PM
 #9

Whilst there is a lot of excitement about the possibilites of "Turing complete" blockchain transactions that are supported by Ethereum and AT (the latter being my own invention)
Shameless plug / Product placement

AT is an open source and free product - so okay call it a plug but I don't make a cent from anyone using it (and it is the first Turing complete system to be on a mainnet).

Whether you make a profit is irrelevant. General Discussion is a place to discuss about Bitcoin, not to promote other projects. Please post in alt-currencies.
CIYAM
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Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer


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January 17, 2015, 06:08:42 PM
 #10

Whether you make a profit is irrelevant. General Discussion is a place to discuss about Bitcoin, not to promote other projects. Please post in alt-currencies.

CIYAM is not an alt currency (it isn't even a currency) and it has a Bitcoin Wallet so please get your facts straight.

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

GPG Public Key | 1ciyam3htJit1feGa26p2wQ4aw6KFTejU
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AT - Automated Transactions - CIYAM Developer


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January 17, 2015, 06:09:01 PM
 #11

Whilst there is a lot of excitement about the possibilites of "Turing complete" blockchain transactions that are supported by Ethereum and AT (the latter being my own invention)
Shameless plug / Product placement

Why do you think it is a product placement from the moment the thread name already contains that word and on top of that he is saying that is not the future. He is not advertising it this way, just discussing his thoughts and concerns. And even so -  as CIYAM mention it is the first Turing complete that is live on mainnet, so it is worth mentioning imo.

1ELCU3hahFLMPPqsoHS2Mg2Rqjya6VXjAW
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January 17, 2015, 06:19:48 PM
 #12

Whilst there is a lot of excitement about the possibilites of "Turing complete" blockchain transactions that are supported by Ethereum and AT (the latter being my own invention)
Shameless plug / Product placement

Why do you think it is a product placement from the moment the thread name already contains that word and on top of that he is saying that is not the future. He is not advertising it this way, just discussing his thoughts and concerns. And even so -  as CIYAM mention it is the first Turing complete that is live on mainnet, so it is worth mentioning imo.

Lumping together a random project with a blockbuster such a Ethereum and taking a critical tone to make the post sound legit may be smart marketing, but it's still completely off-topic in this sub-forum.

That being said, Satoshi and I could be wrong sometime, as being pure rockstar geniuses doesn't necessarily make us fit to debate of political matters; now Satoshi has stepped down, so that let's only me to rule that forum. Right Wink?
CIYAM
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January 17, 2015, 06:24:18 PM
 #13

Lumping together a random project with a blockbuster such a Ethereum and taking a critical tone to make the post sound legit may be smart marketing, but it's still completely off-topic in this sub-forum.

That is rather odd to say - as in fact the CIYAM project was started in 2001 (yes 14 years ago) but okay seemingly you are in charge of what is "on topic" in the whole forum now.

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

GPG Public Key | 1ciyam3htJit1feGa26p2wQ4aw6KFTejU
freequant
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January 17, 2015, 06:35:47 PM
 #14

Lumping together a random project with a blockbuster such a Ethereum and taking a critical tone to make the post sound legit may be smart marketing, but it's still completely off-topic in this sub-forum.

That is rather odd to say - as in fact the CIYAM project was started in 2001 (yes 14 years ago) but okay seemingly you are in charge of what is "on topic" in the whole forum now.


If I was I would have moved your thread to alt-currencies. Now I'm not saying that your project isn't interesting. I'm just stating that you are off-topic here, in a subtle way maybe, but still off-topic. I let it up to the mods to make the final call on that matter.
CIYAM
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January 17, 2015, 06:39:20 PM
 #15

If I was I would have moved your thread to alt-currencies. Now I'm not saying that your project isn't interesting. I'm just stating that you are off-topic here, in a subtle way maybe, but still off-topic. I let it up to the mods to make the final call on that matter.

So again it seems that you think you should be in charge of what posts go where.

Like you say - let's leave it up to the mods. Smiley

(as you think that a product that has a BTC Wallet and isn't an alt coin should be moved to alt coins)

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

GPG Public Key | 1ciyam3htJit1feGa26p2wQ4aw6KFTejU
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January 17, 2015, 06:46:53 PM
 #16

Whilst there is a lot of excitement about the possibilites of "Turing complete" blockchain transactions that are supported by Ethereum and AT (the latter being my own invention)
Shameless plug / Product placement

Why do you think it is a product placement from the moment the thread name already contains that word and on top of that he is saying that is not the future. He is not advertising it this way, just discussing his thoughts and concerns. And even so -  as CIYAM mention it is the first Turing complete that is live on mainnet, so it is worth mentioning imo.

Lumping together a random project with a blockbuster such a Ethereum and taking a critical tone to make the post sound legit may be smart marketing, but it's still completely off-topic in this sub-forum.

That being said, Satoshi and I could be wrong sometime, as being pure rockstar geniuses doesn't necessarily make us fit to debate of political matters; now Satoshi has stepped down, so that let's only me to rule that forum. Right Wink?

Have you read the documentation of AT or studied its potential to say it is a random project and/or cannot be compared to Ethereum? We are not care about marketing or whatsoever, just the tech and this is how that random project was developed. It is not about being wrong or genius or whatsoever, anyone is free to express his opinion and is also free to have a huge ego. But if you support the evolution of the technology and moving forward, at least you should be able to have a serious discussion instead of "trolling" and accusing. If the thread is or not in the right sub-forum, then are mods out there to decide that.

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January 17, 2015, 06:52:23 PM
 #17

But lets not speak more about AT. The thread is not about AT or Ethereum. The concerns raised from CIYAM are beyond these projects and are more general.

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January 17, 2015, 06:54:30 PM
 #18

If I was I would have moved your thread to alt-currencies. Now I'm not saying that your project isn't interesting. I'm just stating that you are off-topic here, in a subtle way maybe, but still off-topic. I let it up to the mods to make the final call on that matter.

So again it seems that you think you should be in charge of what posts go where.

Like you say - let's leave it up to the mods. Smiley

(as you think that a product that has a BTC Wallet and isn't an alt coin should be moved to alt coins)


I think he is just making an emotional knee jerk reaction because you had the nerve to attack his investment in ethereum. Of course this topic is relevant to Bitcoin as it makes some salient points that more efficient processes are best handled off the blockchain.

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January 17, 2015, 06:58:16 PM
 #19

If I was I would have moved your thread to alt-currencies. Now I'm not saying that your project isn't interesting. I'm just stating that you are off-topic here, in a subtle way maybe, but still off-topic. I let it up to the mods to make the final call on that matter.

So again it seems that you think you should be in charge of what posts go where.

Like you say - let's leave it up to the mods. Smiley

(as you think that a product that has a BTC Wallet and isn't an alt coin should be moved to alt coins)


I think he is just making an emotional knee jerk reaction because you had the nerve to attack his investment in ethereum. Of course this topic is relevant to Bitcoin as it makes some salient points that more efficient processes are best handled off the blockchain.

+1

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January 17, 2015, 07:00:18 PM
 #20

*sigh*

Expected a nice intelligent discussion starting with 18 posts already.....instead found trolls and whiners.....that is enough BTT for one day (all 5 mins of it).

Radix - DLT x.0

Web - http://radix.global  Forums - http://forum.radix.global Twitter - @radixdlt
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