Cryptocoins-Dice.com | BTC XRP XMR XMG DOGE | Play Invest Leverage Faucet

[wpalczynski]

Bobbax,

What is scandalous is your replies to this https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=929949.80 .  You have not mathematically demonstrated how it is possible that during a time period in which the house lost 2 million fluffypony and I both lost over 2 million each.  Basically investors lost more then 2 times what the house lost in that same period.  The explanations you provided make no sense to me or other people to who I reached out for an opinion on the matter.  Initially you avoided the core of the question, this raises major red flags.

One would think that as a casino owner you would want to ensure that your biggest investor at the time (me) would understand how he is losing large amounts of money to what look like gross mathematical anomalies.

Hi,

The site has been updated yesterday (or early this morning for GMT).

I modified one of the core rule of the game that causing investors making scandal on the site. I can't afford such scandals from some peoples with high reputation at this state.

The accusations aren't justified and felt after a player won a lot. As I said in my previous posts, indirectly, the leverage on DOGE was just irresponsible, allowing the max profit to going extremely high compared to the initial bankroll (1/3 of the bankroll), and so, allowing players to win/lost high.

I think most peoples are misunderstanding the leverage system, which is kinda working like kelly, and which is, on the basis, similar to the JD's leverage.

The decision I took is maybe temporary and can be updated again in the future: the max profit isn't related anymore to the bankroll with leverage but to the initial bankroll.

What does that mean for the site, players and investors ?

It mean that the max profit is a lot lower.
For the players that change is pretty frustrating because they just can't bet as high as they did anymore until new investors enter in the game.
For the investors it mean the volatility is a lot less higher and the risk/chance to lost/win high is reduced.

The leverage itself still works the same way and still imply a risk.

Notice that was because the max profit was bind to the bankroll with leverage that XMR and XRP recovered. It was also the reason DOGE & BTC goes down.

I'll keep monitoring the effects of that change on the site and investment, but that will simply result in less violent grow/drop.

[AnalizeSituation]

Some make this test?

your bets/wins? 

how much you sent bitcoins
and how much you wins? in precentages? i am interest
maybe i am my bitcoins invest 

[Bobbax]

I modified one of the core rule of the game that causing investors making scandal on the site. I can't afford such scandals from some peoples with high reputation at this state.

The accusations aren't justified and felt after a player won a lot. As I said in my previous posts, indirectly, the leverage on DOGE was just irresponsible, allowing the max profit to going extremely high compared to the initial bankroll (1/3 of the bankroll), and so, allowing players to win/lost high.

Honestly, your attitude here towards investors is terrible. I can forego miscommunications due to the language barrier, but it is clearly insulting to say that investors are "making scandal on the site" and that we're "irresponsible". We're investors in *your* business, we're providing the very foundation your site builds on. We don't mind making a loss, but we want to understand why we incurred a loss, and the explanation is critical as it explains why us or anyone else should continue to invest. If there's something we're misunderstanding then the onus is on you to take the time to explain it to us.

Thus far you've not contacted me (or wpalczynski, I imagine) to walk us through things so we understand why we've made a 90% loss on our investment. Insulting us because we don't have magical insight into what your (closed) source is doing is really not doing you any favours.

Hi fluffy,

You're going to have a hard time proving this isn't a scam. Someone far more familiar with martingale and gambling dynamics will have to look at your code to see where you screwed up.

You're not the only accusing my site of being a scam right after that loss for the investors.
I'm not here to insult peoples but I'm not here to be insulted too.

You asked how that loss happened and I sent an answer. The winner even came here to share witness.
I'm aware nobody want to lost such amount, but as I said, the global average of the bankroll was pretty much irresponsible. 80:1 is an oblivious high risk.

smooth mentioned it the right way:

With 100x leverage "the house" only needs to lose 1% against the bettors for investors to lose 100% of their investment. Even with an edge, the house being down 1% will happen frequently.

So we were at 80:1 and the max profit is 0.5%. Within 3-4 bets you could just lost all.

I'll find back the bets and send them here tomorrow, I'll be not available anymore for today.

[wpalczynski]

Not sure what you are trying to say here.

Some make this test?

your bets/wins? 

how much you sent bitcoins
and how much you wins? in precentages? i am interest
maybe i am my bitcoins invest 

[perl]

Please disable leverage!!!

You are more litle for proposal leverage .

23:39:41 <@davidlatapie> Tu sais quoi ? Met en pratique et montre nous
23:42:12 <@davidlatapie> Je vais me coucher, bonne nuit

45 Minutes after CCD print information lost 0.12BTC.
CCD as lost 0.15BTC not investor .

I have luck with me on start POC .
I have win only 0.04 BTC on gambler view reduce investisor view.

And my investisor AT as switch 0.00047319 -> -0.09571797   ( not fee for me for next 0.15BTC on investisor )
All Investisor lost only 0.04 ( Results only of my luck )

I can make POC more extrem
For 0.5 BTC  LOST , I can make AT Site lost more between 50 BTC and 100BTC  
And same time regulare investor share 0.5BTC  and my investisor page as 50BTC and 100BTC of profit without fee.
 

[fluffypony]

Hi fluffy,

You're going to have a hard time proving this isn't a scam. Someone far more familiar with martingale and gambling dynamics will have to look at your code to see where you screwed up.

You're not the only accusing my site of being a scam right after that loss for the investors.
I'm not here to insult peoples but I'm not here to be insulted too.

There was no insult from my side - I said you would have a hard time proving you're not a scam given the situation, that is not incorrect. I further said that someone with greater familiarity with the dynamic would need to look at the code, and that is also not incorrect. I'm not suggesting you open-source your code, but you could definitely open-source or privately distribute the investment / betting algorithms responsible for this behaviour.

I don't want an answer from smooth, I want to be treated by the company owner like I am a sizeable investor. Because I am, even after this 90% loss. Continuing to dodge around semantics and my word choices just makes you look guilty

[wpalczynski]

Whats POC?

Please disable leverage!!!

You are more litle for proposal leverage .

23:39:41 <@davidlatapie> Tu sais quoi ? Met en pratique et montre nous
23:42:12 <@davidlatapie> Je vais me coucher, bonne nuit

45 Minutes after CCD print information lost 0.12BTC.
CCD as lost 0.15BTC not investor .

I have luck with me on start POC .
I have win only 0.04 BTC on gambler view reduce investisor view.

And my investisor AT as switch 0.00047319 -> -0.09571797   ( not fee for me for next 0.15BTC on investisor )
All Investisor lost only 0.04 ( Results only of my luck )

I can make POC more extrem
For 0.5 BTC  LOST , I can make AT Site lost more between 50 BTC and 100BTC  
And same time regulare investor share 0.5BTC  and my investisor page as 50BTC and 100BTC of profit without fee.
 

[wpalczynski]

Exactly the same type of behavior hes exhibiting when addressing my concerns.

Hi fluffy,

You're going to have a hard time proving this isn't a scam. Someone far more familiar with martingale and gambling dynamics will have to look at your code to see where you screwed up.

You're not the only accusing my site of being a scam right after that loss for the investors.
I'm not here to insult peoples but I'm not here to be insulted too.

There was no insult from my side - I said you would have a hard time proving you're not a scam given the situation, that is not incorrect. I further said that someone with greater familiarity with the dynamic would need to look at the code, and that is also not incorrect. I'm not suggesting you open-source your code, but you could definitely open-source or privately distribute the investment / betting algorithms responsible for this behaviour.

I don't want an answer from smooth, I want to be treated by the company owner like I am a sizeable investor. Because I am, even after this 90% loss. Continuing to dodge around semantics and my word choices just makes you look guilty

[smooth]

Hi fluffy,

You're going to have a hard time proving this isn't a scam. Someone far more familiar with martingale and gambling dynamics will have to look at your code to see where you screwed up.

You're not the only accusing my site of being a scam right after that loss for the investors.
I'm not here to insult peoples but I'm not here to be insulted too.

There was no insult from my side - I said you would have a hard time proving you're not a scam given the situation, that is not incorrect. I further said that someone with greater familiarity with the dynamic would need to look at the code, and that is also not incorrect. I'm not suggesting you open-source your code, but you could definitely open-source or privately distribute the investment / betting algorithms responsible for this behaviour.

I don't want an answer from smooth, I want to be treated by the company owner like I am a sizeable investor. Because I am, even after this 90% loss. Continuing to dodge around semantics and my word choices just makes you look guilty

I totally agree that more transparency about the process and effect of investment and leverage changes is definitely needed. I've told Bobbax that this is the only thing I think will enable to him to retain both a leverage feature and some degree of user confidence. This is just my opinion though, ultimately it is his call what if anything to do here.

[wpalczynski]

It is hard for me to understand what you write.  Could you please explain this in French and I can translate with Google or something?

Please disable leverage!!!

You are more litle for proposal leverage .

23:39:41 <@davidlatapie> Tu sais quoi ? Met en pratique et montre nous
23:42:12 <@davidlatapie> Je vais me coucher, bonne nuit

45 Minutes after CCD print information lost 0.12BTC.
CCD as lost 0.15BTC not investor .

I have luck with me on start POC .
I have win only 0.04 BTC on gambler view reduce investisor view.

And my investisor AT as switch 0.00047319 -> -0.09571797   ( not fee for me for next 0.15BTC on investisor )
All Investisor lost only 0.04 ( Results only of my luck )

I can make POC more extrem
For 0.5 BTC  LOST , I can make AT Site lost more between 50 BTC and 100BTC  
And same time regulare investor share 0.5BTC  and my investisor page as 50BTC and 100BTC of profit without fee.
 

[perl]

Bug with fee on divest
Commission free until is not update with divest

Dogecoin   01 Mar @ 07:10:28   502,495.47669370   95,140.05975568   9,514.00597556
 Dogecoin   01 Mar @ 07:06:20   508,481.14166468   91,929.04943277   9,192.90494327
 Dogecoin   01 Mar @ 07:06:13   517,609.63316921   91,247.21153915   9,124.72115391

[wpalczynski]

If true this must be a bug introduced with one of the latest code changes because I was certainly charged a commission on my very modest Monero earnings when I divested.

Bug with fee on divest
Commission free until is not update with divest

Dogecoin   01 Mar @ 07:10:28   502,495.47669370   95,140.05975568   9,514.00597556
 Dogecoin   01 Mar @ 07:06:20   508,481.14166468   91,929.04943277   9,192.90494327
 Dogecoin   01 Mar @ 07:06:13   517,609.63316921   91,247.21153915   9,124.72115391

[perl]

Yes is recent, to night no probleme .

Code:

 Bitcoin	28 Feb @ 23:40:53	0.50000000	0.00000000	0.00000000
 Bitcoin	28 Feb @ 23:02:38	0.00473191	0.00000000	0.00000000
 Bitcoin	28 Feb @ 23:02:03	0.02000000	0.00473191	0.00047319

Pb is allway present

Code:

 Ripple	01 Mar @ 14:31:35	2,995.81957613	2.04412654	0.20441265
 Ripple	01 Mar @ 14:31:21	2,996.02397339	2.04397339	0.20439733

[Bobbax]

There was no insult from my side - I said you would have a hard time proving you're not a scam given the situation, that is not incorrect. I further said that someone with greater familiarity with the dynamic would need to look at the code, and that is also not incorrect. I'm not suggesting you open-source your code, but you could definitely open-source or privately distribute the investment / betting algorithms responsible for this behaviour.

I don't want an answer from smooth, I want to be treated by the company owner like I am a sizeable investor. Because I am, even after this 90% loss. Continuing to dodge around semantics and my word choices just makes you look guilty

Hi,

sorry to be late on that. Here all the bets done by the player:

https://www.cryptocoins-dice.com/files/zip/bets.tar.gz

The server seed is not revealed because the player is still using that seed.

You'll find 2 files. 1 JSON with all the bets from her run, and a simple nodeJS file to calculate the total amount he won from that run.
The script will show that he won 4,423,680 DOGE.

Here the DOGE chart:



3,590,000 + 830,000 = 4,420,000

Even without looking to the other players bets we can see that's pretty much accurate.

edit: I'm checking out for the commission, i'll refund the overflow if I find something.

[smooth]

This does not explain:

during a time period in which the house lost 2 million fluffypony and I both lost over 2 million each.

I can imagine how it might be possible but without more transparency on the entire process including investment and leverage changes you aren't going to restore confidence. Another possibility is that wpalczynski is mistaken and that didn't happen. Either way, please document it.

Just posting log files on a one time basis to put out the fire now is not good enough either, they need to be available ongoing.

[leancuisine]

Is the site down? It is for me at least...

[Bobbax]

Is the site down? It is for me at least...

The site is up, shouldn't be down for you. Could you try again and keep me updated ?
If the site is still down for you, could you send me a PM with some hints, like from what country are you trying to connect ?

[leancuisine]

Is the site down? It is for me at least...

The site is up, shouldn't be down for you. Could you try again and keep me updated ?
If the site is still down for you, could you send me a PM with some hints, like from what country are you trying to connect ?

It's working fine for me know, it must have been my internet then.

Just worried as I own 70% of the bankroll.

[wpalczynski]

Bobbax,

What is scandalous is your replies to this https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=929949.80 .  You have not mathematically demonstrated how it is possible that during a time period in which the house lost 2 million fluffypony and I both lost over 2 million each.  Basically investors lost more then 2 times what the house lost in that same period.  The explanations you provided make no sense to me or other people to who I reached out for an opinion on the matter.  Initially you avoided the core of the question, this raises major red flags.

One would think that as a casino owner you would want to ensure that your biggest investor at the time (me) would understand how he is losing large amounts of money to what look like gross mathematical anomalies.

Hi,

The site has been updated yesterday (or early this morning for GMT).

I modified one of the core rule of the game that causing investors making scandal on the site. I can't afford such scandals from some peoples with high reputation at this state.

The accusations aren't justified and felt after a player won a lot. As I said in my previous posts, indirectly, the leverage on DOGE was just irresponsible, allowing the max profit to going extremely high compared to the initial bankroll (1/3 of the bankroll), and so, allowing players to win/lost high.

I think most peoples are misunderstanding the leverage system, which is kinda working like kelly, and which is, on the basis, similar to the JD's leverage.

The decision I took is maybe temporary and can be updated again in the future: the max profit isn't related anymore to the bankroll with leverage but to the initial bankroll.

What does that mean for the site, players and investors ?

It mean that the max profit is a lot lower.
For the players that change is pretty frustrating because they just can't bet as high as they did anymore until new investors enter in the game.
For the investors it mean the volatility is a lot less higher and the risk/chance to lost/win high is reduced.

The leverage itself still works the same way and still imply a risk.

Notice that was because the max profit was bind to the bankroll with leverage that XMR and XRP recovered. It was also the reason DOGE & BTC goes down.

I'll keep monitoring the effects of that change on the site and investment, but that will simply result in less violent grow/drop.

Bobbax,

Can you please provide some answers to my questions on how 2 million doge looks to have just disappeared?

[Bobbax]

I am interested in why I lost more then the house total loss even though I am less then 50% of the bankroll.  Thats what I need you to explain to me.  You have the data on your end.  I was watching those numbers for more than an 1hr 40 mins so the delay shouldnt come into play.

You just didn't lost more than the house, as all other investors (including me).
You did allow me to show your investment data, you'll find one of your investment chart below.

We can see on the Feb. 13 that the wagered coins spiked, most was due to that player toggling invest+high leverage/divest.
Around 110k wagered. It's ~25% of the total wagered amount.


(site DOGE wagered amount)

You're trying to find a correlation between the site profit indicator and your investment, that's where you're going the wrong way.
Usually, the site profit and your investment should be indeed pretty similar, the variations caused by the coins back from an investments are too low to be seen.
As said in my previous post, the site profit don't know when you bring back into the game your own played coin, from your investment.
If you own 50% of the bankroll, bet 10 and lost, you'll get back 5. If you replay with the 5 coins you just lost: it's causing variations, because your started with 10 but in fact played 15.

I think you're mostly worried about what happened on the Feb. 13, because the rest of the charts looks like your investment chart.


(your chart - site chart)

Just by looking the previous bank's big win, you earned approx half of it. Watching other waves provide pretty similar results (winning or losing).

The Feb. 13 player caused huge variations. He did replay a lot of lost coins and earned a lot of investors coins.
At this stat of the game, it's not so hard to do, because it's still easy to own the bankroll.

It's not cheating, he could lost on that, that's even not a strategy. Look like he tried twice and never did it again.

Your 2M didn't disappeared, they were won that way.

I made a basic graph to provide a better explanation.
Notice that's a case of a full success.



The graph showing 5 bets: A, B, C, D & E.
1, 2 & 3 is the bank profit.

Before bet A, the player invest with 100:1 leverage and own 80% of the bankroll, before bet B he divest and own 0%, etc...
By owning that large chunk, if he win, he'll mostly win her own coin. If he lost, he'll get back 80%.

After that 5 bets session, the bank profit is up to 3. But investors (not counting that player), lost 2.6.

You think that the 2M 'disappeared' because, on the Feb. 13, the site profit is going up, like in the example above. The site profit chart is right on the total won and lost, and your investment chart is right to show that you lost coins.
I'm again relating to the Feb. 13 because we got very high variation on that day causing your investment chart and the site profit chart to look different.

Now, let suppose that the player totally failed:



We got exactly the same results, but reversed: investment charts going up while site profit chart going down.

That's why this 'tactic' is not better than just betting.