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Author Topic: 3600 bitcoins dumped everyday = bearish brainwash propoganda  (Read 1728 times)
ivyleague1985 (OP)
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January 21, 2015, 04:08:59 PM
Last edit: January 21, 2015, 05:07:01 PM by ivyleague1985
 #1

Let's assume there are three types of miners existing in the market.

1. Perma-bear miner that doesn't believe in bitcoin at all. They will sell whatever they mined for fiat.

OK. Those guys are dumping. But how much % of them are out there? If they are perm-bear, why not short directly on exchange but enter the business of mining instead?

I will say at most 5% of the miners are perma-bears.

2. Savvy miners that do calculation before any mining/selling activities.

The calculation is easy: if expected return of holding > the interest rate of borrowing, it would be beneficial for miners to borrow fiat, rather than sell bitcoins, to pay for the maintenance.

So if miners can sell at $250 within a year from now, they can generate a 25% more intrinsic return comparing with selling today at around $200. And what is their borrowing cost at the moment? 1% or 2%? Everyone can see through that 25% return is way greater than 1% interest rate, right?

What if one miner believes that he/she will never see a $250 price within one year from now? Good question, but the answer is simple. If his expectation is that low, he will choose to quit now and will not remain in the business.

So weaker hands are also shaken out in the savvy miners camp. The more stronger hands, the less dumping from this savvy miner group.

I guess there are 50%-60% savvy miners out there. And they will hold given the low interest rate and the high expected return.

3. Perma-bull miners that totally endorse the potential of bitcoin. They will not sell until bitcoin is widely accepted and price is largely appreciated. They are the remaining 35%-45% out there.

From this guesstimate, you can see NOT ALL 3600 coins are dumped everyday! Miners will do calculation before dumping. Miners can borrow fiat and can wait for a better price to sell. And by reserve selection, bears will not choose to enter the mining business in the first place.

Don't get manipulated by bears' brainwash without your own analysis.
ivyleague1985 (OP)
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January 21, 2015, 04:19:05 PM
 #2

Let's assume there are three types of miners existing in the market.

1. Perma-bear miner that doesn't believe in bitcoin at all. They will sell whatever they mined for fiat.

OK. Those guys are dumping. But how much % of them are out there? If they are perm-bear, why not short directly on exchange but enter the business of mining instead?

I will say at most 5% of the miners are perm-bears.

2. Savvy miners that does calculation before any mining/selling activities.

The calculation is easy: if expected return of holding > the interest rate of borrowing, it would be beneficial for miners to borrow fiat, rather than sell bitcoins, to pay for the maintenance.

So if miners can sell at $250 within a year from now, they can generate a 25% more intrinsic return comparing with selling today at around $200. And what is their borrowing cost at the moment? 1% or 2%? Everyone can see through that 25% return is way greater than 1% interest rate, right?

I guess there are 50%-60% savvy miners out there. And they will hold given the low interest rate and the high expected return.

3. Perma-bull miner that totally endorse the potential of bitcoin. They will not sell until bitcoin is widely accepted and price is largely appreciated. They are the remaining 35%-45% out there.

From this guesstimate, you can see NOT ALL 3600 coins are dumped everyday! Miners will do calculation before dumping. Miners can borrow fiat and can wait for a better price to sell (if any). And by reserve selection, bears will not choose to enter the mining business in the first place.

Don't get manipulated by bears' brainwash without your own analysis.


You know why the price hit $200 and still dumping? 10% inflation

Miners can borrow fiat and can wait for a better price to sell NO, THEY DON'T DO SUCH RISK THING, most of miners dump immediately, sad fact but you have to take it


Only dumb ass who doesn't do any calculation will directly yield to the conclusion. Doing business = taking risk. If the expected return is good, why not take some risks?

It is entrepreneurs who opened mines and entrepreneurs have stronger and braver hearts than wonkers like you.
jaredboice
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January 21, 2015, 04:26:34 PM
 #3

The death by inflation argument is a very RETARDED argument considering how transparent it is that only 21 Million Bitcoins will ever be generated.  Everyone knows about this cap.  Therefore everyone knows that this inflation will slow down dramatically, especially with the next halving in 2016.  Knowing this, investors will want to get their hands on more Bitcoins now while the spigot is flowing twice as fast (and 4x as fast as the halving after the next halving, etc..)
jasonjm
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January 21, 2015, 04:26:59 PM
 #4

wow,  never was there a more bunch of delusional people than bitcoin longs.

probably 95%+ of miners sell coins immediately.

if they had wanted to speculate on bitcoin they would have just bought bitcoin.

PS love how you describe people who agree with your world view as "savvy".

when winklevoss ETF is denied, bitcoin at under $20 within 6 months, watch.

and yeah inflation is a real big problem for bitcoin when interest has dropped off a cliff.

it takes almost $1 million dollars a day, even at these low prices, just to keep bitcoin where it is, assuming no one is dumping coins. Good luck with that.
jaredboice
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January 21, 2015, 04:27:50 PM
 #5

Cheesy ROLMAO
zoinky
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January 21, 2015, 04:33:36 PM
 #6

wow,  never was there a more bunch of delusional people than bitcoin longs.

probably 95%+ of miners sell coins immediately.

if they had wanted to speculate on bitcoin they would have just bought bitcoin.

PS love how you describe people who agree with your world view as "savvy".

when winklevoss ETF is denied, bitcoin at under $20 within 6 months, watch.

and yeah inflation is a real big problem for bitcoin when interest has dropped off a cliff.

it takes almost $1 million dollars a day, even at these low prices, just to keep bitcoin where it is, assuming no one is dumping coins. Good luck with that.

Go look at fresh blocks and show me the coins that are moving to exchanges immediately.
ivyleague1985 (OP)
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January 21, 2015, 04:34:26 PM
 #7

wow,  never was there a more bunch of delusional people than bitcoin longs.

probably 95%+ of miners sell coins immediately.

if they had wanted to speculate on bitcoin they would have just bought bitcoin.

PS love how you describe people who agree with your world view as "savvy".

when winklevoss ETF is denied, bitcoin at under $20 within 6 months, watch.

and yeah inflation is a real big problem for bitcoin when interest has dropped off a cliff.

it takes almost $1 million dollars a day, even at these low prices, just to keep bitcoin where it is, assuming no one is dumping coins. Good luck with that.

I will say 95% miners will do calculation before the selling. Don't expect mine managers to be as stupid as you to "just sell immediately", because they are not dealing with a consumer product that has stable pricing, but instead are dealing with an asset that has volatile pricing.

Market timing, risk/reward ratio and cost/profit analysis are always considered by miners. Buying, holding and selling are the three options laying on the mine managers' desks.

If oversimplifying is all your bears can do, I can only say bears are NOT that shrewd as they pretend to be.
jasonjm
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January 21, 2015, 04:42:46 PM
 #8

I have no position at all, so whatever happens now doesn't affect me.

that being said, to me, bitcoin looks like a slow motion train wreck.

there are a tons of longs in the 70 to 120 ranges, who have not yet felt the heat, that time is coming, soon...... if they capitulate (and they will), this will get very nasty.

when would I go long BTC? if bitcoin is under $100 and winkle ETF is approved (the lower the better on approval notice). Do I think this will happen? maybe 5% chance imo.
jaredboice
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January 21, 2015, 04:54:43 PM
 #9

^ Cheesy Still ROLMAO!  Thanks for that, you're so entertaining!!
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January 21, 2015, 04:57:17 PM
 #10

5% perma-bear miners? I think you can safely say that's way over 50%
I personally don't know any miners that keep their btc or part of it...

14b8PdeWLqK3yi3PrNHMmCvSmvDEKEBh3E
bassclef
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January 21, 2015, 05:01:25 PM
 #11

I have no position at all, so whatever happens now doesn't affect me.

that being said, to me, bitcoin looks like a slow motion train wreck.

there are a tons of longs in the 70 to 120 ranges, who have not yet felt the heat, that time is coming, soon...... if they capitulate (and they will), this will get very nasty.

when would I go long BTC? if bitcoin is under $100 and winkle ETF is approved (the lower the better on approval notice). Do I think this will happen? maybe 5% chance imo.

Congratulations, you have earned troll status.
manselr
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January 21, 2015, 05:01:56 PM
 #12

5% perma-bear miners? I think you can safely say that's way over 50%
I personally don't know any miners that keep their btc or part of it...
I dont understand people that get into the mining business without any plans on saving at least 10%, so if it goes down you still have a ton on your reserves.
Dilla
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January 21, 2015, 05:04:39 PM
 #13

It doesn't matter if they dump them. Today's prices would put it at about $700,000 a day needed to absorb those coins dumped. We have currently $17million daily volume. The price is really dependent on whether the other $16mil a day is red or green. The daily supply increase is a small portion.
ivyleague1985 (OP)
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January 21, 2015, 05:12:05 PM
 #14

It doesn't matter if they dump them. Today's prices would put it at about $700,000 a day needed to absorb those coins dumped. We have currently $17million daily volume. The price is really dependent on whether the other $16mil a day is red or green. The daily supply increase is a small portion.

I just want to stop their stupid brainwashing propaganda by doing a little guesstimate. The sentence of "3600 coins are dumped everyday" appears in all threads when bears are out of reasoning ammo. It is so boring to see this sentence 10 times each day.

At least, bears should spend some time and invent some new propaganda to amaze us?

Notlampchop is doing a good job. He found out so many interesting old time Chinese posters and translate them into English. That is some solid propaganda work than "3600 coins are dumped everyday".
ronald98
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January 21, 2015, 05:15:20 PM
 #15

Do you have any links to what you based your guesstimate from or did you merely make up the figures?
Dilla
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January 21, 2015, 05:16:39 PM
 #16

I agree with you, there's lots of brainwashing attempts on both Bears and Bulls. Bears just seem to be way more prominent now. Best not to take a bullish or bearish stance with Bitcoin and see the market for what it is.
sgbett
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January 21, 2015, 05:34:18 PM
 #17

If you really think the price is going to go back up, then don't you necessarily have to assume that (nearly) all the miners have been selling. I do.

Isn't the whole point, that the last 12 month decline was due to loss of confidence, fear in the market and was exacerbated by selling pressure from miners, who believe it is more beneficial to cash out BTC now than hold for a lower price.

For an epic rally to begin (and I'm not saying it will) wouldn't it require, firstly, capitulation. This final selloff from those in the grips of despair would result in sales drying up. Price stabilises, which causes a gradual increase in confidence. Any small increase in buying starts to naturally eat up supply, the gradually increasing price, means more dollars are needed to buy the same BTC so this delicate equilibrium will move along, but as it tends upwards it reveals an underlying increase in money moving into the market.

As the price rises, miners must then start to consider holding for better prices. This results in a diminishing supply being chased by a gradually increasing amount of dollars...

This sounds familiar, but of course in no way should you expect it. Its just one possible scenario. Smiley

I think that what I describe above is the start of a full cycle, which culminates in exponential growth with blowoff top and then prolonged bear market.

We've just been through a full cycle, and I think that although there have been a few other ATH only one of them was the culmination of a full cycle.

I don't think the rise to 266 and crash to 60 was a cycle in its own right, but just a temporary correction during the entire cycle we've been through

I see this as the first cycle:

$0.60 -> $32

there was a mini run up to ~15 and a correction to ~8 early in the cycle

$5 -> $1200  

the run up to 266 and correction to 60 is similar to the smaller move in the previous cycle

both of these cycles had a discernible 'bear market' following the blow off, both had an aborted launch followed by major exponential growth culminating in a price collapse.

I can imagine that this kind of price action is almost inevitable result of human behaviour/emotion, and that its not unreasonable to think that we'll see the same kind of cycle unfold again - the now infamous 560k prediction post touches on this idea of repeated boom/bust cycles during the course of adoption.

I think its a mistake to try and predict the actual prices for the purposes of trying to trade them, but its a fun exercise to think about the size of the moves one could expect should we see another similar market cycle, so with that in mind lets go ahead and extrapolate:

$0.6 -> 32 : 53x
$5 -> 1200 : 240x

If we take the current price of around $200 as being a stable platform for luanch (yes I am choosing these words on purpose Wink )

We take our worst case scenario is being x53 multiplier, a middle ground of 146x and a best case a repeat of the 240x move we see these potential new ATH's:

53x => $10,600
146x =>$29,200
240x => $48,000

Looks like my 5k bet is pretty conservative by those figures!

Now I'm not one to shy away from considering outlandish numbers, so lets imagine for a moment that as the length of the cycle increases then so the magnitude of the move also increases. if we do the most basic linear extrapolation, the first move was x53 the second was x240 so the third must be x1087

Now that gives us $217k. A figure I'm sure that the trollers will all be delighted with as they undoubtedly all actually hold BTC. I ain't even mad. How could I be. At that price I might finally be able to afford that porsche I've been after.

Fire away trolltards, should be plenty of easy pickings in this post Smiley

"A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a financial institution" - Satoshi Nakamoto
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January 21, 2015, 07:26:19 PM
 #18

wow,  never was there a more bunch of delusional people than bitcoin longs.

probably 95%+ of miners sell coins immediately.

if they had wanted to speculate on bitcoin they would have just bought bitcoin.

PS love how you describe people who agree with your world view as "savvy".

when winklevoss ETF is denied, bitcoin at under $20 within 6 months, watch.

and yeah inflation is a real big problem for bitcoin when interest has dropped off a cliff.

it takes almost $1 million dollars a day, even at these low prices, just to keep bitcoin where it is, assuming no one is dumping coins. Good luck with that.

You seem to think the bitcoin price is related to mining costs. You are mistaken.

1 million dollars is just a number you plucked out of the air, right?

At least with lambtroll there is a facade of intelligence, recent trolls are thick as pigshit. Good luck shorting!
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January 21, 2015, 07:42:26 PM
 #19

I have no position at all, so whatever happens now doesn't affect me.

that being said, to me, bitcoin looks like a slow motion train wreck.

there are a tons of longs in the 70 to 120 ranges, who have not yet felt the heat, that time is coming, soon...... if they capitulate (and they will), this will get very nasty.

when would I go long BTC? if bitcoin is under $100 and winkle ETF is approved (the lower the better on approval notice). Do I think this will happen? maybe 5% chance imo.

Congratulations, you have earned troll status.

This is a likely scenario imo. Wall Street will want Bitcoin price as low as possible when the etf is approved, so their "invisible hand" is working now driving the price down.
Nagle
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January 21, 2015, 08:05:29 PM
 #20

Probably 95%+ of miners sell coins immediately.
Bitcoin mining has become a skinny business. Miners have to sell to pay their costs. Cex.io just dropped out of mining because they were losing money on it.

Mining and speculation are different businesses. The same party can do both, but you have to account for them separately.
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