BurtW arrested (update: charges dropped!)

[jbreher]

Can anyone link to the article written on this story? A raid involving 35 agents would have media coverage and I can't find it.

Yes, one would think that there would be significant media coverage. Nothing. I live in the same metro. Newspaper silence.

Yet I find the 35 agents figure completely plausible.

Well I guess it's possible that the hundreds of people that would have witnessed the vehicles for 35 Feds cordon off a city block while a house was searched for hours just ignored it completely. I also believe it's entirely possible for donkeys to fly.

You must be from the densely populated eastern urban corridor.

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[Gleb Gamow]

Gleb Gamow I'm not seeing any "bruce" in the article, where do you see "bruce" in the article?

That's because Bruce Wagner is not mentioned in the article, but that is a picture of Bruce Wagner and not Burt Wagner.

Proof: https://twitter.com/brucewagner

I'll expand. From the article:

While Wagner was involved in buying and selling Bitcoins, his online persona doesn’t offer many details; his website Bitcoinme.com is an amateur WordPress setup which he describes as “a collection of simple ideas…not a business nor a non-profit…  just a few ideas.” The site doesn’t offer trading itself, and instead acts as a front for affiliate links to Coinbase Inc. and others.

The above paragraph can be attributed to Bruce Wagner. It cannot be attributed to Burt Wagner (BurtW), as they are two different people.

That, and I don't  think Burt had plans on going to Pattaya: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=39476.0

[Gleb Gamow]

Can anyone link to the article written on this story? A raid involving 35 agents would have media coverage and I can't find it.

Yes, one would think that there would be significant media coverage. Nothing. I live in the same metro. Newspaper silence.

Yet I find the 35 agents figure completely plausible.

Well I guess it's possible that the hundreds of people that would have witnessed the vehicles for 35 Feds cordon off a city block while a house was searched for hours just ignored it completely. I also believe it's entirely possible for donkeys to fly.

You must be from the densely populated eastern urban corridor.

Burt Wagner lives in the country, and Google Maps has his entire house masked off.

[jbreher]

I doubt he goes free, and I doubt he gets 5 years, ...

Excellent legal analysis - thanks for that. So tell me ... what exactly are the charges? Exactly what has he been accused of? What are the elements of each charge? What is the evidence against him? Or or you just making stuff up?

what exactly are the charges?  ... http://www.scribd.com/doc/248973784/Bitcoin-indictment

Exactly what has he been accused of?  ... http://www.scribd.com/doc/248973784/Bitcoin-indictment

What are the elements of each charge?  ... http://www.scribd.com/doc/248973784/Bitcoin-indictment

What is the evidence against him?  ... http://www.scribd.com/doc/248973784/Bitcoin-indictment

Or or you just making stuff up?  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=934268.msg10243390#msg10243390

Perhaps you missed upthread where I specifically mentioned the indictment. I note that it quite clearly says nothing about the supposed nature of the illegal activity that the accused is alleged to know that the funds were engaged in.

Unless, of course, you can make something up. How do you get from the info in the indictment to your 'analysis' of how much time you think he'll serve?

you asked "what exactly are the charges?" that's in the indictement,
you asked, 'what is he accused of' that's in the indictment,  

clearly says nothing about the supposed nature of the illegal activity - it was clear enough for grand jury to indite, police to arrest, judge to preside over, and for most of us to understand -- I think your definition of the word "clearly" is a but fuzzy.

Are you incapable of seeing that I am asking you to show your work supporting your 'analysis' of how much time he'll serve? OK, I'll play along. Allow me to quote from the indictment:

...and (C) involved the transport and transmission of funds that were known to the defendant to have been derived from a criminal offense and were intended to be used to promote and support unlawful activity;

Again - from what criminal offense were these funds known by the defendant to have been derived from? The indictment clearly does not say. Unless you're making shit up again.

While case law has moved the bar (indeed, some time back, there was no crime of 'money laundering'), if the funds were not from criminal activity, most would agree that no moral transgression had occurred. Accordingly, the legal precedent still is likely that to prove money laundering, one element that must be proved is that -- indeed -- the defendant knew the funds were derived from a criminal offense.

So again I ask you - what was that criminal offense from whence the funds were derived? And how does that factor into your oh-so-scholarly assessment of sentencing?

[QuestionAuthority]

Can anyone link to the article written on this story? A raid involving 35 agents would have media coverage and I can't find it.

Yes, one would think that there would be significant media coverage. Nothing. I live in the same metro. Newspaper silence.

Yet I find the 35 agents figure completely plausible.

Well I guess it's possible that the hundreds of people that would have witnessed the vehicles for 35 Feds cordon off a city block while a house was searched for hours just ignored it completely. I also believe it's entirely possible for donkeys to fly.

You must be from the densely populated eastern urban corridor.

No, I'm assuming that he lived in Boulder, Colorado where 35 federal agents coming to town would be newsworthy all by itself. You can't take shit in Boulder without your hippie neighbors finding out and reporting it to the media because you flushed it down instead of saving it for your organic garden. Believe me I know, I used to ski Breckenridge every year when I was in college. I have family in Boulder.

[jbreher]

No, I'm assuming that he lived in Boulder, Colorado

Your assumption is not far from the mark, yet still wrong.

where 35 federal agents coming to town would be newsworthy all by itself. You can't take shit in Boulder without your hippie neighbors finding out and reporting it to the media because you flushed it down instead of saving it for your organic garden. Believe me I know, I used to ski Breckenridge every year when I was in college. I have family in Boulder.

mmmhh hmm. You _used_to_ ski Breck (a good distance in time of travel, and much further in culture from Boulder - which is in turn a city in which Burt Wagner does not live), and you have 'family' in Boulder (which is in turn...).

Sorry - I am Questioning your Authority.

I live here. Nothing in the media. Not even a mention of his arrest, let alone how many agents were involved.

Actually, I'm not sure why I am arguing this point. I don't know how many agents were involved, and _you_ don't know how many agents were involved. I find the 35 figure plausible. You claim such a figure is... what was it?... as likely as flying donkeys - IOW, impossible.

Here in a metro where... umm ... "You can't take shit in Boulder without your hippie neighbors finding out and reporting it to the media", we have not even a mention of the arrest of a longtime, seemingly upstanding member of the community on notable charges. This might suggest that dissemination of this fact is being suppressed. 35 agents or two.

Anyone else been able to find any of the court proceedings other than the indictment?

[QuestionAuthority]

No, I'm assuming that he lived in Boulder, Colorado

Your assumption is not far from the mark, yet still wrong.

where 35 federal agents coming to town would be newsworthy all by itself. You can't take shit in Boulder without your hippie neighbors finding out and reporting it to the media because you flushed it down instead of saving it for your organic garden. Believe me I know, I used to ski Breckenridge every year when I was in college. I have family in Boulder.

mmmhh hmm. You _used_to_ ski Breck (a good distance in time of travel, and much further in culture from Boulder - which is in turn a city in which Burt Wagner does not live), and you have 'family' in Boulder (which is in turn...).

Sorry - I am Questioning your Authority.

I live here. Nothing in the media. Not even a mention of his arrest, let alone how many agents were involved.

Actually, I'm not sure why I am arguing this point. I don't know how many agents were involved, and _you_ don't know how many agents were involved. I find the 35 figure plausible. You claim such a figure is... what was it?... as likely as flying donkeys - IOW, impossible.

Here in a metro where... umm ... "You can't take shit in Boulder without your hippie neighbors finding out and reporting it to the media", we have not even a mention of the arrest of a longtime, seemingly upstanding member of the community on notable charges. This might suggest that dissemination of this fact is being suppressed. 35 agents or two.

Anyone else been able to find any of the court proceedings other than the indictment?

You have read this thread right? I'm told by one of his friends that he's from Boulder. I'm no longer convinced this even happened. I'd like to see something more concrete as proof.

​​My world changed on October 14, 2014 when twenty plus cars surrounded my home and, according to my neighbors, 35 federal agents raided my house. The federal agents refused to tell me why they had arrested Burt, what they were searching for,  or why they were tearing up our home.  

No one would give me any information.  By the end of the week, Burt had spent one night in Denver County Jail and two nights in the special housing unit at the federal detention center.

[Gleb Gamow]

No, I'm assuming that he lived in Boulder, Colorado

Your assumption is not far from the mark, yet still wrong.

where 35 federal agents coming to town would be newsworthy all by itself. You can't take shit in Boulder without your hippie neighbors finding out and reporting it to the media because you flushed it down instead of saving it for your organic garden. Believe me I know, I used to ski Breckenridge every year when I was in college. I have family in Boulder.

mmmhh hmm. You _used_to_ ski Breck (a good distance in time of travel, and much further in culture from Boulder - which is in turn a city in which Burt Wagner does not live), and you have 'family' in Boulder (which is in turn...).

Sorry - I am Questioning your Authority.

I live here. Nothing in the media. Not even a mention of his arrest, let alone how many agents were involved.

Actually, I'm not sure why I am arguing this point. I don't know how many agents were involved, and _you_ don't know how many agents were involved. I find the 35 figure plausible. You claim such a figure is... what was it?... as likely as flying donkeys - IOW, impossible.

Here in a metro where... umm ... "You can't take shit in Boulder without your hippie neighbors finding out and reporting it to the media", we have not even a mention of the arrest of a longtime, seemingly upstanding member of the community on notable charges. This might suggest that dissemination of this fact is being suppressed. 35 agents or two.

Anyone else been able to find any of the court proceedings other than the indictment?

You have read this thread right? I'm told by one of his friends that he's from Boulder. I'm no longer convinced this even happened. I'd like to see something more concrete as proof.

​​My world changed on October 14, 2014 when twenty plus cars surrounded my home and, according to my neighbors, 35 federal agents raided my house. The federal agents refused to tell me why they had arrested Burt, what they were searching for,  or why they were tearing up our home.  

No one would give me any information.  By the end of the week, Burt had spent one night in Denver County Jail and two nights in the special housing unit at the federal detention centeragents raided my house. The federal agents refused to tell me why they had arrested Burt, what they were searching for,  or why they were tearing up our home.  

For concrete proof, simply call Burt's wife, for she's provided her number for anybody to do such. She's savvy enough to know how to handle calls, or ignore any undesirable calls on her end, so no problem there I believe. She probably knows exactly what to say and not say to anybody that calls so that at the end of the call there'll be doubt as to what the status is and that the unfortunate event is factual.

Also, Burt's address is well document, but I'm not providing it here. If somebody wants it for non nefarious reasons, simply PM me. To be clear, I'm not providing such to dis Burt, for he's a good guy.

[QuestionAuthority]

So tell us the story Bruno. Was it over drugs and not mainly Bitcoin? Was he arrested in Denver or Boulder? Was he arrested for money laundering drug money or just for being an unlicensed exchange? Were there 20 cars with 35 agents kicking down the door or did two agents knock on the door? What were the three big yellow letters on the back of their windbreakers?

I have no intention of calling a stranger. I don't know who she is or how reliable the info would be anyway.

[sed]

I never knew BurtW personally and so my main takeaway from this thread is just the fear factor that bitcoiners are being chased down by US gov't and arrested and whatnot.  I'm a little scared of this.

[jbreher]

You have read this thread right? I'm told by one of his friends that he's from Boulder. I'm no longer convinced this even happened. I'd like to see something more concrete as proof.

I don't have to read the thread right. I know more than has been written in this thread.

That may be hard for you to accept. I don't care. I mean, I care, but I won't be moved from principle.

I know what I know, I have said less than the entirety of what I know. If you go spelunking through old threads, you may find out how it is that I might know. But for reasons I cannot yet divulge, I will not say more than I deem prudent at this time. Mostly, this limits me to repeating publicly-available information.

In this thread, I am just trying to tame wild-speculation-presented-as-fact. That is my sole mission here for now. I don't know the details of his case, but you can be damned sure the prosecution is monitoring this board. Please be circumspect about presenting speculation as if it were fact.

No, he doesn't live in Boulder. But a search of public records will show that he has a POBox in Boulder, so we can be fairly sure it is within commute distance.

[PenguinFire]

Have you guys read any updates about him.  His family doesn't seem to be updating us much on the situation. 

[jbreher]

If you follow cases like this it has the hallmark of  ...

mmhh hmmmm... so... open-ended speculation ...

If we had the police report it would substantiate that notion.

If we had the report, it might substantiate that notion, or it might counterdict it.... But we don't have that report, now, do we?

As for my sentencing prediction, that's based on the indictment, the probability of conviction based on the history of cases like it,

Cases like what? Like your open ended flight of fancy you outline above?

[QuestionAuthority]

If you follow cases like this it has the hallmark of  ...

mmhh hmmmm... so... open-ended speculation ...

If we had the police report it would substantiate that notion.

If we had the report, it might substantiate that notion, or it might counterdict it.... But we don't have that report, now, do we?

As for my sentencing prediction, that's based on the indictment, the probability of conviction based on the history of cases like it,

Cases like what? Like your open ended flight of fancy you outline above?

When you can find a case in which "unlicensed money transmitter" is the 1st in a multiple count indictment and the person was ultimately found NOT guilty, I will reconsider my prediction.

I've done my homework, I found tons of cases where "guilty of operating an unlicensed money transmitting business" is almost always part of the plea agreement, judge and/or jury finding.   That's the low hanging fruit.  

I want to see that arrest report, I want to get an idea of what may have sparked the 35 man raid, and why he may have spent that 'extra time' in fed detention.

Make no mistake, I would love for the feds to drop the case, or for burt to beat it.

I'd like to see an arrest report too. At least I'd like to see any info on what actually happened. I found only one record of anything happening with that name in all the searches I've done. FCI Englewood had a detention record for a Burton William Wagner registration number 40708-013 released on 10/17/2014. If that's his middle name then that could be him but he was released long ago so I doubt it's the same person. I did two paid public record searches and came up with only that. I researched all the articles of the arrest written by every source I can find and they all circle back to one source and one scribd post of the complaint.

[RockMinerOops]

Just as a heads up, FCI Englewood is not a pretrial detention facility....it ONLY houses Federally sentenced inmates.

So, unless he has a prior federal charge and was posting from prison on this board, its not the same person.  (If he was posting back then, I don't know and haven't bothered to look)

Source:  I was in federal prison a few times, and I know how the detention process works.  They have a few regional pretrial lockups, but mostly pretrial detainees are held at local county jails or private CCA facilities.

[QuestionAuthority]

Just as a heads up, FCI Englewood is not a pretrial detention facility....it ONLY houses Federally sentenced inmates.

So, unless he has a prior federal charge and was posting from prison on this board, its not the same person.  (If he was posting back then, I don't know and haven't bothered to look)

Source:  I was in federal prison a few times, and I know how the detention process works.  They have a few regional pretrial lockups, but mostly pretrial detainees are held at local county jails or private CCA facilities.

Yeah, that's what I thought. That's why I said it probably wasn't him which in turn means I can't find anything. Maybe he went straight to Guantanamo. 

[jbreher]

Just as a heads up, FCI Englewood is not a pretrial detention facility....it ONLY houses Federally sentenced inmates.

So is your 'ONLY' something that is mandated by statute - i.e. there is law preventing its use as such, or is this merely Standard Operating Procedure?

[jbreher]

FCI Englewood had a detention record for a Burton William Wagner registration number 40708-013 released on 10/17/2014.

Did your source doc list an arrival date? If so, was it on or after the presumed raid of Oct 14?

but he was released long ago so I doubt it's the same person.

Why does this release lead you to believe that it's not BurtW? In our system of 'innocent until proven guilty', would it not be typical for release on bail?

[jbreher]

You allergic to homework?

Not at all. As I posted upthread, IANAL.

Thanks for the secret decoder ring.

So if QuestionAuthority used this data source, it would appear that the answer is that no arrival date is available without filing a FOIA request. That sound about right?

Edit: looks like a blind alley:

Information about a person

If the information you seek is not available on the Inmate Locator, you must submit a request, along with a signed authorization from the person to whom the records pertain. That authorization must be an original document (not a copy), and must be notarized or signed under penalty of perjury. You may also use a DOJ-361 form.

Seems like a reasonable privacy restriction.
c'est la guerre

[TetraHect0rCannabinol]

WOW. No wonder he was absent from here for months. It must have been a sting operation.

And he was raving about how safe it was dealing with face to face cash transactions, and how he does it all the time :/

It is easy, cant say ive had police try to nab me but ive picked up some large amounts of btc from people in person, sad times and very much respect for BurtW