BurtW arrested (update: charges dropped!)

[jbreher]

Sorry, Armis - I'd like to return to one of your points that I glossed over earlier, when I was more concerned about how you thought you knew how much gulag time our intrepid Mr. Wagner might be facing:

given the resources they put in before the arrest, during the arrest, and how they treated him after arraignment they are actively painting him as some bitcoin terrorist mastermind.

I see where in this thread we have discussed the resources they put in during the arrest (an alleged 35 agents). What puzzles me is what you might know about:

- the resources put in before the arrest
- how they are treating him after arraignment
- for that matter, at what point in time did 'before arraignment' become 'after arraignment'? (please KISS - IANAL)
- actively painting him as some kind of bitcoin terrorist

I don't recall seeing any of the above discussed.

- Have I just missed it?
- Are you just making stuff up? (a point upon which I relent on the 'gulag time' issue)
- Or do _you_ perhaps actually _know_ more than you are willing to divulge at this time?

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[leopard2]

I wouldn't be surprised if the government shut down LocalBitcoins soon.  They support the big compliant exchanges like CoinBase, but we all know that LocalBitcoins isn't on the list of government's favorite exchanges ..

That's because it is P2P and P2P is all about being not governed, so naturally gov. hates P2P

The whole idea behind government is centralization 

[MCHouston]

I wouldn't be surprised if the government shut down LocalBitcoins soon.  They support the big compliant exchanges like CoinBase, but we all know that LocalBitcoins isn't on the list of government's favorite exchanges ..

That's because it is P2P and P2P is all about being not governed, so naturally gov. hates P2P

The whole idea behind government is centralization 

They do not support the big exchanges either.  Money laundering is money laundering as defined by law they will charge whoever they can with it.  Just make sure you do not fit the definition in the law and you are okay.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/01/27/feds-charge-bitcoin-start-up-founder-with-money-laundering/

[manselr]

I never knew BurtW personally and so my main takeaway from this thread is just the fear factor that bitcoiners are being chased down by US gov't and arrested and whatnot.  I'm a little scared of this.

It's probably one of these "let's do this to some unlucky guy so the rest are scared and stop using bitcoin" sort of strategy. Nothing to worry about IMO.

[jbreher]

Money laundering is money laundering as defined by law they will charge whoever they can with it.  Just make sure you do not fit the definition in the law and you are okay.

Well, no. We know without a doubt that the large banks caught laundering money will be dealt with merely by fining them in an amount much less than the profits garnered from the laundering.

[jbreher]

You said: "I see where ... they put in during the arrest (an alleged 35 agents)".  Let's start there and the implication and reasonable assumptions for that situation.  We should be able to safely conclude that the feds knew his address prior to the actual raid, they probably requested and received a search warrant, and wanted to 'catch' burt at home.  Otherwise they would have called him to make an appointment for another buy and arrested him on the spot.

Well, yeah. We can probably assume they knew his address. After all, it is a simple matter of public record. Hell, I know his address. I verified that it can be obtained by a simple search of public records - ten minutes tops, even for someone that isn't a trained investigator.

#2 - "the resources put in before the arrest"  -- that goes back to the Miami sting, they likely contacted him via localbitcoins, they likely befriended him, they likely engaged in off-color and off-topic conversation, and they likely conducted numerous transactions for varying high value amounts of money -- all ripped out of the Miami playbook.  

If you read between the lines of the indictment you will that they did an investigation in addition to the sting.  

One would freaking hope they'd have engaged in an investigation, before they drive in hot, with ludicrous force, against a long-time, upstanding member of the community. But how much resource is really required to do a handful of localbitcoins transactions in order to entrap an otherwise innocent person? Doodley-squat, that's how much. My heart bleeds for the level of effort they needed to expend.

#3 - "how they are treating him after arraignment" -- when I read "special housing" I did my spot homework and learned it often is/means 'the hole', solitary confinement, isolation, a watch room, or anything else that requires 'special attention'.   At arraignment a common norm is for the judge to determine if the defendant will be released (recog, or bail) or not. If no bail, he goes to long term detention, if bail is set and he can pay it he likely goes back to court jail to make life easier for all involved.   I didn't consider a suicide watch, or serious medical condition earlier but those would be reasonable reasons for the "special housing".   Nevertheless, I presumed bail was set unfairly high.  

What makes you think the fed detention was after arraignment? I mean, it could be. But a three-day (or whatever) stay in fed hell rather than back to county for release processing seems kinda weird, no?  

I can blue-sky a number of other scenarios where 'special housing' (such a benign euphemism, that) might be deemed logical - but I'm trying to avoid openly speculating in this thread. (That may change, but I'll be damned sure to clearly mark what is speculation).

#4 - "for that matter, at what point in time did 'before arraignment' become 'after arraignment'? (please KISS - IANAL) - the presumption is that when he left county lock-up that he went to court, and that after court he was shipped to fed detention.  As such the the arraignment took place between the housing stay changes.

So you assume the time in fed was while he was trying to amass bail?

#5 - "actively painting him as some kind of bitcoin terrorist" - I contend and maintain that you don't send 35 officers to anyone's house to do an ordinary, common, or usual arrest, that's the sort of thing you do when you expect lots of trouble.   It doesn't matter how nice the guy actually is, what matters most is how the custodians of his life view him, their belief will determine in large part their actions.   We all act based on information and belief, if the information they have lead them to believe that 30+ officers were necessary for that raid that's bad.  And if those types of actions prejudiced the court to the extent of ordering a mile-high bail, then yes, they are treating burt as a bitcoin terrorist.

By 'actively painting him as a terrorist', I assumed you meant character assassination in the public eye -- a la David Koresh (well, he was eventually actually assassinated). But instead, they're doing all they can to keep this thing quiet. All most like the lead investigator might be embarrassed by the fact that, after 'expending vast resources' (your characterization), 35 armed gestapoans were unable to find enough evidence of a crime to hold our intrepid Mr. BurtW for more than three days.

I took the liberty of bolding "the custodians of his life" in your quote above. It is such a curious turn of phrase. What exactly do you mean by this? Who are the custodian's of any person's life?

Jbreher, it's your turn, please get the police report?

Working on it. After several blind alleys, I have one active request submitted so far. But nothing is instant in this system, is it?

[Gleb Gamow]

Sorry, Armis - I'd like to return to one of your points that I glossed over earlier, when I was more concerned about how you thought you knew how much gulag time our intrepid Mr. Wagner might be facing:

given the resources they put in before the arrest, during the arrest, and how they treated him after arraignment they are actively painting him as some bitcoin terrorist mastermind.

I see where in this thread we have discussed the resources they put in during the arrest (an alleged 35 agents). What puzzles me is what you might know about:

- the resources put in before the arrest
- how they are treating him after arraignment
- for that matter, at what point in time did 'before arraignment' become 'after arraignment'? (please KISS - IANAL)
- actively painting him as some kind of bitcoin terrorist

I don't recall seeing any of the above discussed.

- Have I just missed it?
- Are you just making stuff up? (a point upon which I relent on the 'gulag time' issue)
- Or do _you_ perhaps actually _know_ more than you are willing to divulge at this time?

jbreher the notion of "making things up" implies little to no meaningful thought, as opposed to critical thinking which involves the facts before you, common knowledge, previous knowledge, use of logic and reason, and some spot homework.

You said: "I see where ... they put in during the arrest (an alleged 35 agents)".  Let's start there and the implication and reasonable assumptions for that situation.  We should be able to safely conclude that the feds knew his address prior to the actual raid, they probably requested and received a search warrant, and wanted to 'catch' burt at home.  Otherwise they would have called him to make an appointment for another buy and arrested him on the spot.

#2 - "the resources put in before the arrest"  -- that goes back to the Miami sting, they likely contacted him via localbitcoins, they likely befriended him, they likely engaged in off-color and off-topic conversation, and they likely conducted numerous transactions for varying high value amounts of money -- all ripped out of the Miami playbook.  

If you read between the lines of the indictment you will that they did an investigation in addition to the sting.  

#3 - "how they are treating him after arraignment" -- when I read "special housing" I did my spot homework and learned it often is/means 'the hole', solitary confinement, isolation, a watch room, or anything else that requires 'special attention'.   At arraignment a common norm is for the judge to determine if the defendant will be released (recog, or bail) or not. If no bail, he goes to long term detention, if bail is set and he can pay it he likely goes back to court jail to make life easier for all involved.   I didn't consider a suicide watch, or serious medical condition earlier but those would be reasonable reasons for the "special housing".   Nevertheless, I presumed bail was set unfairly high.  

#4 - "for that matter, at what point in time did 'before arraignment' become 'after arraignment'? (please KISS - IANAL) - the presumption is that when he left county lock-up that he went to court, and that after court he was shipped to fed detention.  As such the the arraignment took place between the housing stay changes.

#5 - "actively painting him as some kind of bitcoin terrorist" - I contend and maintain that you don't send 35 officers to anyone's house to do an ordinary, common, or usual arrest, that's the sort of thing you do when you expect lots of trouble.   It doesn't matter how nice the guy actually is, what matters most is how the custodians of his life view him, their belief will determine in large part their actions.   We all act based on information and belief, if the information they have lead them to believe that 30+ officers were necessary for that raid that's bad.  And if those types of actions prejudiced the court to the extent of ordering a mile-high bail, then yes, they are treating burt as a bitcoin terrorist.


Jbreher, it's your turn, please get the police report?

35 officers may be considered excessive in this case, but I'm leaning toward sometimes LEOS need a real life exercise that's not deemed too threatening to train upcoming officers for future such raids that ARE more threatening in nature to augment their myriad safe training scenarios. Even a pilot has to go through some quasi-real situations outside the simulator prior to getting their license, and SWAT team members are first foot-patrol police officers oppose to reading books, taking a few SWAT training courses, then placed on an experience team to perform a very dangerous raid.

[Possum577]

So his wife or partner's website is a bit wrong. He didn't get indicted for owning bitcoin. He got indicted for operating a bitcoin exchange, transfer, or bank type business without a license. Sound like a legit indictment. In the US you gotta have a license to conduct business as a legal business. This isn't an indictment against bitcoin it's an indictment against conducting business without paying for the license to do so.

You may not agree with the fact that government requires license to conduct business, but where we live and which government we operate within is our own choice.

[jbreher]

https://soundcloud.com/jbreher-free/co-ga-sen-jud-comm-20150225-hr

What's This? Not much - just the Proceedings of the Colorado General Legislative Assembly: Senate Judiciary Committee: 2015 Feb 25: Hearing on SB-006 - on limiting the negative effects and unbridled application of so-called 'civil forfeiture' (AKA legalistic theft on the part of the state against its citizens) - the first hour thereof.

Why the heck would I be posting this here?

Starting at time 34:30, there is some testimony all y'all might find interesting.

It seems that, on 2015 Feb 25, in official testimony before the Colorado Senate Judiciary Committee, Jean Wagner (BurtW's wife) and Zoe Wagner (BurtW's daughter) testified in a hearing related to consideration of a bill. A bill sponsored by CO Senator Laura Woods (SD19) - Concerning limitations on forfeiture actions.

The testimonies of both Ms Wagners are in relation to what you might expect, should you be reading this thread. They concern what transpired on 2014 Oct 14 -- the arrest of BurtW -- and the subsequent malfeasance of the authorities.

Entered into testimony are the following facts, as presented by Ms Wagners:

35 Agents raided their house with guns drawn
They still have not seen the warrant - it has been sealed under the (glaringly misnamed) PATRIOT act
The charge levied against BurtW is 'not having the proper business license'
The house was thoroughly trashed
No evidence of guns were found
No evidence of drugs were found
No evidence of terrorism was found
The family had been followed for 9 months prior by so-called 'authorities'
~$30,000.00 cash was seized belonging to the parents
~$600.00 cash was seized from the child's piggy bank
All computers were seized
All cell phones were seized
All digital media was seized (e.g. camera flash cards)
All DVDs seized
in effect, the complete digital lives (i.e. memories) of parents and child were seized
700 Bitcoins were seized
None of this has been returned

Sen Lundberg asked what the charge was.
Answer - Burt, a gainfully-employed Electrical Engineer by trade, bought and sold bitcoins for his personal use (Zoe chimes in here with 'it's a hobby'). The feds assert that this activity requires a Money Transmittal License.

Sen Merrifield: has he been convicted:
Answer no
Has he been charged?
Status unclear, characterized by Ms Wagner as 'we are in the extortion phase of this ordeal, where we are bargaining how much of our money they will be able to steal in exchange for Burt's freedom'

Who participated:
A: Who didn't? Some that did:
- Post Office
- US Marshalls
- Boulder County Sheriff
- DEA
- DHS

To stave off accusations that the recording might be fake, you can obtain your own copy direct from the state legislature's website:

http://www.leg.state.co.us/clics/cslFrontPages.nsf/Audio?OpenPage

- expand left nav for 'Senate Committees'
- select subnav 'Senate Judiciary'
- in the box '2015 Senate Judiciary Archived Audio'
- - locate row containing 'Feb 25, 2015'
- - - click 'Audio' in that row to launch player.

Note that this is purely a matter of public record. No speculation whatsoever (though I could not resist a couple of parenthetical editorializations).

[Gleb Gamow]

https://soundcloud.com/jbreher-free/co-ga-sen-jud-comm-20150225-hr

What's This? Not much - just the Proceedings of the Colorado General Legislative Assembly: Senate Judiciary Committee: 2015 Feb 25: Hearing on SB-006 - on limiting the negative effects and unbridled application of so-called 'civil forfeiture' (AKA legalistic theft on the part of the state against its citizens) - the first hour thereof.

Why the heck would I be posting this here?

Starting at time 34:30, there is some testimony all y'all might find interesting.

It seems that, on 2015 Feb 25, in official testimony before the Colorado Senate Judiciary Committee, Jean Wagner (BurtW's wife) and Zoe Wagner (BurtW's daughter) testified in a hearing related to consideration of a bill. A bill sponsored by CO Senator Laura Woods (SD19) - Concerning limitations on forfeiture actions.

The testimonies of both Ms Wagners are in relation to what you might expect, should you be reading this thread. They concern what transpired on 2014 Oct 14 -- the arrest of BurtW -- and the subsequent malfeasance of the authorities.

Entered into testimony are the following facts, as presented by Ms Wagners:

35 Agents raided their house with guns drawn
They still have not seen the warrant - it has been sealed under the (glaringly misnamed) PATRIOT act
The charge levied against BurtW is 'not having the proper business license'
The house was thoroughly trashed
No evidence of guns were found
No evidence of drugs were found
No evidence of terrorism was found
The family had been followed for 9 months prior by so-called 'authorities'
~$30,000.00 cash was seized belonging to the parents
~$600.00 cash was seized from the child's piggy bank
All computers were seized
All cell phones were seized
All digital media was seized (e.g. camera flash cards)
All DVDs seized
in effect, the complete digital lives (i.e. memories) of parents and child were seized
700 Bitcoins were seized
None of this has been returned

Sen Lundberg asked what the charge was.
Answer - Burt, a gainfully-employed Electrical Engineer by trade, bought and sold bitcoins for his personal use (Zoe chimes in here with 'it's a hobby'). The feds assert that this activity requires a Money Transmittal License.

Sen Merrifield: has he been convicted:
Answer no
Has he been charged?
Status unclear, characterized by Ms Wagner as 'we are in the extortion phase of this ordeal, where we are bargaining how much of our money they will be able to steal in exchange for Burt's freedom'

Who participated:
A: Who didn't? Some that did:
- Post Office
- US Marshalls
- Boulder County Sheriff
- DEA
- DHS

To stave off accusations that the recording might be fake, you can obtain your own copy direct from the state legislature's website:

http://www.leg.state.co.us/clics/cslFrontPages.nsf/Audio?OpenPage

- expand left nav for 'Senate Committees'
- select subnav 'Senate Judiciary'
- in the box '2015 Senate Judiciary Archived Audio'
- - locate row containing 'Feb 25, 2015'
- - - click 'Audio' in that row to launch player.

Note that this is purely a matter of public record. No speculation whatsoever (though I could not resist a couple of parenthetical editorializations).

WOW! Thanks, J.

Now, I'm heading on over to the BFL thread to let Josh Zerlan know how he's about to have his BTC-House ceased.

[Velkro]

there is no help for him now.... he knew what he is doing

Agree, sad but true :/

[dewdeded]

Money laundering is money laundering as defined by law they will charge whoever they can with it.  Just make sure you do not fit the definition in the law and you are okay.

What's wrong with you?

The law gets changed and oversteped everyday. Why should anyone care what a criminal goverment of an corrupt, despot state like the united states defines as ML?

The concrete law and the intepretation (of what ML is) can and will be changed every second it benefits their anti-social leadership.

[dothebeats]

Never knew BurtW personally, but I think we can't help him for now. What exactly is the reason why he is arrested?

[runam0k]

The daughter was adorable, broke my heart to hear her say that she no longer says the pledge of allegiance anymore in school.  

Indeed.  But can you blame her?  The actions of the authorities seem wildly OTT for the alleged crime at hand: buying and selling bitcoins without 'the proper business license'.  Seriously fucked up.  (Unless, of course, there's something we don't know.)  Hopefully they get a little help from the senator to find out WTF is going on or at least speed up the process.

[QuestionAuthority]

https://soundcloud.com/jbreher-free/co-ga-sen-jud-comm-20150225-hr

Who participated:
A: Who didn't? Some that did:
- Post Office
- US Marshalls
- Boulder County Sheriff
- DEA
- DHS

Now why would the Boulder County Sheriff participate jbreher?



Hum, I wonder? LOL

[dothebeats]

The daughter was adorable, broke my heart to hear her say that she no longer says the pledge of allegiance anymore in school.  

Indeed.  But can you blame her?  The actions of the authorities seem wildly OTT for the alleged crime at hand: buying and selling bitcoins without 'the proper business license'.  Seriously fucked up.  (Unless, of course, there's something we don't know.)  Hopefully they get a little help from the senator to find out WTF is going on or at least speed up the process.

JUST WHAT THE HELL? Arrested because he bought bitcoins without a proper business license? Dafuq is happening, srsly?

[jbreher]

Now why would the Boulder County Sheriff participate jbreher?

Dude - give it up. There are more municipalities within Boulder county than the city of Boulder. I already granted that it was close yet inaccurate. Again, the actual address is rather trivial to learn.

Further, this silly sideshow argument started when you asserted that it was impossible that 35 gestapoens  could have been involved, as that huge force would certainly be splashed across the headlines in such a densely populated city such as Boulder.

But I guess you were wrong about that 'assertion of fact', hunh?

[QuestionAuthority]

Now why would the Boulder County Sheriff participate jbreher?

Dude - give it up. There are more municipalities within Boulder county than the city of Boulder. I already granted that it was close yet inaccurate. Again, the actual address is rather trivial to learn.

LOL Boulder is a small county with only a couple hundred thousand people. That's like saying he doesn't live in Denver he lives in Parker. Yeah whatever. Of course it's important to know the area he lives in if you want to search for news of what's happening. Searching in Pueblo would be useless if it happened in Fort Collins. 

[jbreher]

...

I'll say it again. The 35 gestapoans, arms drawn, and in full battle dress, did not arrive on flying donkeys.

[QuestionAuthority]

...

I'll say it again. The 35 gestapoans, arms drawn, and in full battle dress, did not arrive on flying donkeys.

I guess you're forgetting the wife claimed all the neighbors watched what happened and reported it to her. The wife never called the local media and used the neighbors as witnesses? That smells a little like Colorado brook trout left on the bank too long.