BurtW arrested (update: charges dropped!)

[Gleb Gamow]

Burt, out of curiosity, how much BTC<->USD have you traded, overall?

you have got to be kidding?

LOL, her avatar might as well be a badge or a prison or someone that is clearly wearing a wire.

This is why it is generally advisable not to speak publicly about your case prior to it being resolved as everything you say can and will be used against you. (I am sure everything he talks about is cleared with his attorney ahead of time though)

You talkin' 'bout sporket or Armis?

I buy alt currency, if you have some to sell I'm open to buy.

In general it would be great if the coin is listed on any exchange, if it was not premined, has at least one working faucet, and doesn't have more than 3 zeros after the decimal point when compared to the USD.   

Here's a small snap shot in alpha order of alts I like:
Dogecoin, Feathercoin, Goldcoin, Infinitecoin, Litecoin, Mooncoin, Peercoin, Worldcoin, Ybcoin

 

hahahahaaaaaaa    So, what's that tell you?

At first glance, my initial assessment may be off-base, bud. You're cool with me. Prosperity!

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[erikalui]

... The law does not allow details of a criminal offense to be shared online and these all facts will be used against the accused. I'm sure his lawyer also must have told him the same. It's not advised to share the details even after the accused is free.

Wonder if Burt's wife knows about this, she sure wrote up a storm...

Gosh, all the details have been shared   It's not allowed and the court as well can make BurtW and his wife remove the content. I guess nobody has reported this website.

[sporket]

... The law does not allow details of a criminal offense to be shared online and these all facts will be used against the accused. I'm sure his lawyer also must have told him the same. It's not advised to share the details even after the accused is free.

Wonder if Burt's wife knows about this, she sure wrote up a storm...

Gosh, all the details have been shared   It's not allowed and the court as well can make BurtW and his wife remove the content. I guess nobody has reported this website.

BTW, I was popped for speeding by a real jackbooted statey.  I mean, those guys really look like Nazi Sturmabteilung, boots and all!
Fighting this is going to cost me $200,000.  Please halp.

[sporket]

The rule of law is a myth.

http://faculty.msb.edu/hasnasj/GTWebSite/MythWeb.htm

Wow, that is a great link.  I just skimmed it but plan to go back and read it very carefully when I get a chance.

sporket:  thanks for all the bumps.  Your love and support is much appreciated.

No prob brah, we're all in this together.  Hope you'll spare a few bumps for me when you get the bux

[Gleb Gamow]

... The law does not allow details of a criminal offense to be shared online and these all facts will be used against the accused. I'm sure his lawyer also must have told him the same. It's not advised to share the details even after the accused is free.

Wonder if Burt's wife knows about this, she sure wrote up a storm...

Just finished rereading it. That's fucked up to the nth degree.

[MegaFall]

"The essential principle of totalitarianism is to make laws that are impossible to obey." -- Christopher Hitchens

Just donated $150 to the Libertarian party. If you're in the US I suggest doing the same.

I appreciate the sentiment but that's kind of a waste of money because they can't act quickly and don't stand a chance of winning an election. If you have extra money to donate take a look at the ACLU.

https://www.aclu.org

That's the defeating attitude that will never get them elected. This statement is everything wrong with the current state of politics in the US. I'm starting a couple of businesses and am hoping to be pulling $250k per year, at least. 60% of my income [post taxes] is going to the Libertarian party for the 2016 election.

America has a two party first past the post system.  

You're first sentence is entirely incorrect. No where in the constitution or in election rules does it institute any kind of two-party system requirement. I'm not going to bother reading the rest of your post because I already know that you don't know what you're talking about.

Perfect example; presidential election of 1832 had 4 candidates each taking some part of the electoral college:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_1832

Presidential elections are multi-candidate races to hit the simple majority of electoral votes... which is always 50% of the available electoral votes + 1. The current electoral college has 538 electors, a candidate needs to hit 269 (half of 538) + 1 for a total of 270 electoral votes.

[coinits]

Burt, out of curiosity, how much BTC<->USD have you traded, overall?

you have got to be kidding?

LOL, her avatar might as well be a badge or a prison or someone that is clearly wearing a wire.

This is why it is generally advisable not to speak publicly about your case prior to it being resolved as everything you say can and will be used against you. (I am sure everything he talks about is cleared with his attorney ahead of time though)

You talkin' 'bout sporket or Armis?

I buy alt currency, if you have some to sell I'm open to buy.

In general it would be great if the coin is listed on any exchange, if it was not premined, has at least one working faucet, and doesn't have more than 3 zeros after the decimal point when compared to the USD.  

Here's a small snap shot in alpha order of alts I like:
Dogecoin, Feathercoin, Goldcoin, Infinitecoin, Litecoin, Mooncoin, Peercoin, Worldcoin, Ybcoin

 

hahahahaaaaaaa    So, what's that tell you?

At first glance, my initial assessment may be off-base, bud. You're cool with me. Prosperity!

hahahahaaaaa  I see you still 'reaching', just because you see what you believe to be connecting dots doesn't mean the dots are actually connecting, or that they should be connected.

Here's how this connects to your "investigation" of Armis, based on information and belief you made plausible but wrong assumptions followed by logical but poor and wrong decisions.   But what you did, is what most reasonably prudent people might do if they already had a preconceived notion about key factors.  See to most people 'if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it must be a duck; even if it's actually a goose.  

This case is hinging on a really fine line, one I fear, far too many reasonably prudent people would fall on the wrong side of.  Remember this isn't about the truth of the matter: "is that a duck?" it's about belief of the matter: "what do you believe that is?"  The technical 'duck / goose' difference is not something I would bet on with my freedom or $300K much less both.  

I saw a vid a few days ago where Charlie Sherm was talking to a Canadian meetup group, in it he mentioned that part of his plea is actual prison time, now of course he made light of it because that's his personality but not everyone in the fed pen is there for 'white collar crimes'.  In that same vid he spoke of how Roger Ver reluctantly decided to renounce his US citizenship (~$30M exit tax) ... Ver is not allowed back in the US (according to the vid).  

Our country isn't about right vs wrong any more, only rule of law.  

You keep repeating a falsehood long enough you will believe it even though you could not be more wrong!

Rule of Law is a myth. Deal with reality please!

http://faculty.msb.edu/hasnasj/GTWebSite/MythWeb.htm

[QuestionAuthority]

"The essential principle of totalitarianism is to make laws that are impossible to obey." -- Christopher Hitchens

Just donated $150 to the Libertarian party. If you're in the US I suggest doing the same.

I appreciate the sentiment but that's kind of a waste of money because they can't act quickly and don't stand a chance of winning an election. If you have extra money to donate take a look at the ACLU.

https://www.aclu.org

That's the defeating attitude that will never get them elected. This statement is everything wrong with the current state of politics in the US. I'm starting a couple of businesses and am hoping to be pulling $250k per year, at least. 60% of my income [post taxes] is going to the Libertarian party for the 2016 election.

America has a two party first past the post system.  

You're first sentence is entirely incorrect. No where in the constitution or in election rules does it institute any kind of two-party system requirement. I'm not going to bother reading the rest of your post because I already know that you don't know what you're talking about.

Perfect example; presidential election of 1832 had 4 candidates each taking some part of the electoral college:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_1832

Presidential elections are multi-candidate races to hit the simple majority of electoral votes... which is always 50% of the available electoral votes + 1. The current electoral college has 538 electors, a candidate needs to hit 269 (half of 538) + 1 for a total of 270 electoral votes.

I don't really care that much what you throw your money away on but here's some light reading for you from Harvard, Stanford and Berkeley.

http://www.hazlet.org/cms/lib05/nj01000600/centricity/domain/188/toward%20a%20more%20responsible%20two-party%20system%20%28pdf%29.pdf

http://www.shmoop.com/political-parties/two-party-system.html

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-party_system

[DannyHamilton]

Hello,

I shouldn't post anything, but I am obligated to defend my family.

Not against the internet, you aren't.  There are many "trolls" on the internet whose only reason for posting anything at all is to see if they can get you worked up enough to respond to them.  By responding, you are only rewarding (and encouraging their behavior).  Furthermore, it is entirely possible that there are law enforceent authorities that are attempting to play on your emotions for the purpose of getting you to write something incriminating so that they can use it against your husband at trial.

You know the old saying, evil prevails when good men do nothing. 

And this is why you hired lawyers to fight the court cases against you.  If your lawyers are getting upset about the things you are posting, then you really should give some consideration to their advice

I started a new thread to respond to the snarky people on this thread.  Here is the link:

Please don't feed the trolls.

[sporket]

I read some pretty snarky comments on the Bitcoin thread regarding Burt’s arrest and felt it necessary to start a new thread on this subject.

Yup.  A new, self-moderated thread where you can astroturf & delete dissenting comments.

Way to champion open discourse

Yes, our legal fees and costs have reached $200,000.00.  It is an astronomical sum.  It represents our retirement fund, our daughter’s education, and the loan we took out against our home to pay the fees.  We are trying to raise $80,000.00.  Defending an innocent person bankrupts a family.

$200k?  That you're trying to raise on the internet?  
Here?  https://fundrazr.com/campaigns/9yGO3
And here?  http://www.burtw.com/
And here?  http://www.jmwagner.com/
And, of course, here?

You're right, the sum is frickin' astronomical.  Not sure why poor people are tried for murder with public defenders, and you, money changer, deserve a $200k legal team, at other people's expense.  For [what you claim to be] "failure to have a business licence."
Have you shopped around at all?

Anyhow, some brainstorming:
No firms willing to take this clearcut government thuggery case pro bono?  Have you contacted ACLU?

... We have both volunteered countless hours at our church ...

Now's the time for your church to reciprocate
BTW, have you tried prayer, money changer?  I understand that works too.

...my husband was arrested and thrown into solitary confinement ...

It's called "lockup," "solitary confinement" doesn't happen until your hubby gets to prison (which has approximately zero % chance of happening, unless there's a lot of shit you're leaving out).  But way to drama & milk sympathy.  I'm sorry your hubby didn't have a couple of drunks for company.  Shit happens

There will be no justice.  The best we can hope for is to raise enough money so that our daughter doesn’t lose the only home she has ever known.

Think of the children!^TM

...Burt had an unusually large amount of cash on hand because undercover Federal Agents had been buying Bitcoins from him right and left during the months before our house was raided. ... We also had cash on hand because we had been on vacation and we are older people and prefer to pay with cash, as do most people whose parents survived The Great Depression.

Have you tried using Bitcoin instead of cash?  I understand it's a thing

[jbreher]

Wait, you sell bitcointalk account?  How much for a hero account, freedom fighter?

I hear they can be pretty cheap. Especially if said account ownership is acquired as an extortive bargaining chip in the delicate negotiations over whether or not some victim of overreaching state thuggery is allowed to regain his or her freedom.

[jbreher]

Yup.  A new, self-moderated thread where you can astroturf & delete dissenting comments.
...
Have you tried using Bitcoin instead of cash?  I understand it's a thing

You've vaulted over the line from skeptic to full-on asshole.

[sporket]

...
You've vaulted over the line from skeptic to full-on asshole.

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

I remember folks being called assholes for not commiserating with Danny Brewster when his little girl was threatened & he had to leave Cyprus.
More recently, these same folks were accused of heartlessness when said folks failed to shed a tear for friedcat, who was being held hostage by Mongolian pirates at a government sausage factory.

Shit, some were even scorned for not bawwing about Ukyo's gag orders & other difficulties with tyrannical government.  Remember that?
'Coz I shoo do

[erikalui]

I read some pretty snarky comments on the Bitcoin thread regarding Burt’s arrest and felt it necessary to start a new thread on this subject.  Mocking our family’s situation is in poor taste.  Making fun of our request for help shows a darkness of soul that is to be pitied.  A child’s life has been forever altered because of these events.  This is serious and should not be the subject of gossip or idle speculation or mockery.  I am not a member of the Bitcoin community.  I have been impressed by those trying to help our daughter recover her savings.  I have been shocked by the cruelty of others.  I’ve given everyone the ability to contact me directly.  Many here seem to prefer to gossip than learn the facts.  Micon and one other person are the only two to contact me.

Burt is a trader just like the rest of you.  His is a middle-aged electrical engineer who has been a long time Bitcoin enthusiast and investor.  If Burt needs a business license to trade for himself, then ALL of you need a business license too.

The IRS views Bitcoins as an investment for individual trading, like stocks and bonds.  The gains and losses are taxed accordingly.  If you acquire a federal business license and call yourself a business, then you will need to comply with different IRS rules and regulations as well as state rules and regulations.

The attack on Burt by the U.S. Justice Department is an attack on Bitcoins and the Bitcoin community.  You should help defend your Bitcoin community.  You could easily be next.  Burt was targeted long before the Florida arrests.  Chances are, some of you are already in the government’s cross-hairs.

Why help Burt?  Burt is a good person who has worked hard all of his life.  He always helps a friend or family member in need.  He helps other engineers find jobs.  He has taught Bridge and Biblical Greek to senior citizens to help keep them active.  Over the years our family has made generous contributions to numerous charities including the Red Cross during disasters.  We have both volunteered countless hours at our church (we are Methodist).  Burt served on the Staff Parish Relations Committee for a term.  I taught Sunday school until I had to retire during this school year due to the stress from being attacked and betrayed by our country.  Burt volunteered at our daughter’s school and taught math to 3rd graders.  

Since 2004 we have donated over $40,000 to nonprofits.  We are the ones who need help now.  Since Burt is being targeted for investing in Bitcoins, we had hoped the Bitcoin community would help us.

Because of the Justice Department’s attack on our family, we had to stop our contributions to our church, There with Care, water.org, Partners in Health, the Emergency Family Assistance Association and many other charities.  We are still sponsoring a child in Peru even though we really shouldn’t because of the legal fees.  We didn’t want her to suffer because of the U.S. Justice Department's actions against our family.

Yes, our legal fees and costs have reached $200,000.00.  It is an astronomical sum.  It represents our retirement fund, our daughter’s education, and the loan we took out against our home to pay the fees.  We are trying to raise $80,000.00.  Defending an innocent person bankrupts a family.

Ask yourself.  If the government believed you needed a business license, should the government send you a letter advising you to get a license? Or, should the government storm your house, throw you in solitary confinement, bankrupt your family, take all of your electronics and Bitcoins and cash, ruin your thirty year old business and cause financial loss to three Colorado companies?

A notice from the government is the reasonable person’s answer.

Should Burt be deprived of the right to vote, own arms, and volunteer at his daughter’s school because he failed to get a business license for a personal hobby?  Hell no is the right answer.

This case is not about paperwork, i.e., the business license.  This is an attack on the Bitcoin community and Bitcoins.  

I imagine most of you on Bitcointalk are fairly young and inexperienced.  Burt is old enough to be your father.  Imagine the government surrounding your father’s house, putting your father in shackles, putting your father in solitary confinement, and ruining your father’s business all for not having a business license.  You too would be angry and demanding justice.

There will be no justice.  The best we can hope for is to raise enough money so that our daughter doesn’t lose the only home she has ever known.  She will always be traumatized by what has happened.  She will never trust or believe in the United States.

Our family appreciates any financial help you can give us.  Our websites are www.burtw.com and www.jmwagner.com  

Thanks,

Jean Wagner

I decided to reply to this comment on this thread itself instead of the other one where my comment can be deleted if it is not appreciated by the OP.

@bold: It's inhuman to mock someone who is in trouble and shame on those who are doing so.

@red: It appears as if you are threatening me and others who use bitcoin that our turn will be next. I don't agree with this as I too earn bitcoins but  I work for them and not a single penny comes from money laundering or gambling so I am doing nothing wrong. If any day this happens to me, I would not make such statements. I know you are going through a financial crisis but you also need to be considerate while making such statements. Everyone here knows that we are going to die someday does not mean that I am going to say "You know you are going to die." It sounds quite rude and immature.


I don't know the law but my mom knows it being a lawyer herself and she has said that one cannot share the details of a criminal case online as it can be used against the person.

Also, I don't know how did you lose $2,00,000 as it seems that the amount BurtW traded in was a huge amount. According to me, a person who earns bitcoins and trades in it is like a Freelancer who does not need any license for the same. It's sad to know about this case.

Again, I am not assuming nor considering that BurtW is a culprit or innocent as the court is the one who decides it. Best of luck and God bless!

[Cconvert2G36]

I'm just saying, if you are doing really low volume, it probably won't matter. But if one day they decide to prosecute BTC sellers in your state like they have in FL and CO, this could very well happen to anyone. But you can prevent it by being registered as an MSB with FINCEN (which is free) and implementing an AML / KYC policy. For your AML policy, you probably won't be able to do transactions over 3k unless they provide ID and proof of residence. It would probably be a good idea not to do any transactions over 3k, period.

If they mention using the BTC for anything illegal, it's a good idea to assume the customer is an undercover federal agent and you must terminate the transaction immediately.

I have heard it said that free legal advice is worth exactly what you pay for it.

Well Burt, I'm just going off what I have learned in my personal time selling BTC. In fact, I'm just repeating what many other seasoned traders have said already, and what the company I used to work for has told me.

There are sellers who process millions of $ worth of BTC transactions through their bank accounts, have been investigated by the FBI, and cleared. They are all registered with FINCEN and implement AML / KYC policy.

The feds can, theoretically, arrest anyone who sells BTC without being registered as an MSB. I hold no illusions that they can pretty much do whatever they want if they feel like it. It happened to you, it could happen to anyone.  And I know full well what their motivations are (greed, among other things.)

I was just stating the obvious that it is possible to mitigate (but not necessarily completely eliminate) your risk by following certain guidelines. Hopefully, it will be helpful to someone. They will figure this out on their own anyway.

That being said, I very much hope you prevail in your fight against government over-reach. I truly wish you the best of luck.

Well said. You can choose a country, you can't choose its laws, just or unjust. No ill will in saying this, I'm certain this is not what Burt wanted nor what he deserved.

[kevinlarr]

Guys, seems to me this thread has veered a bit off into left-field.

I'd like to redirect the focus a bit back on to EXACTLY what can be DONE about this situation, not necessarily to solve Burt's problem since he's already INTO it, but rather what we-all in the bitcoin community can actually DO NOW to prevent any more instances of this kind of shit taking place.

For example, I noticed that one of the localbitcoins vendors in my area has some "legal disclaimer" text at the bottom of his listing, outlining such things as like "buyer acknowledges and agrees that by replying to this ad that any bitcoin or portion thereof shall not be used for any illegal purposes" and even things like "buyer acknowledges and agrees that this transaction represents only a person to person, constitutionally protected TRADE transaction and not anything related to COMMERCE, interstate or international etc inclusive" and "does not represent professional business or corporate activity but only private party, personal use, hobbyist exchange" etc etc etc.

MOST vendors that I see listing sales on LBC do not have anything like this in their ad: is that just because they don't know any better or is something like this really not going to do any good in fact?

Also, very important question regarding the "Just Get A License, Man" argument:

BURT, I hope you can answer... did YOU have the Federal-Level FINCEN paperwork, i.e. "free license" before they targeted you? If no, why not...? 

And to Special Agent Arran McWhirter or AUSA Michele Korver (we know you're all, on the other side here, reading this thread from your complaints about it to Burt's lawyers) IF in fact Burt HAD this FinCEN license, would that have BEEN ENOUGH FOR YOU GUYS TO LEAVE HIM ALONE???

OR would you have done exactly what you did to him and his family ANYWAY, on the basis of the STATE/LOCAL license/law issues, even IF he HAD gotten the Federal FinCEN paperwork??

Seems to me a very simple and direct answer to this question would go a long way to clearing up EXACTLY WHAT IS REQUIRED so that this "problem" won't ever happen again.

Please... all parties concerned, answer this.

Burt, of course check with your lawyers first but I'd personally really like to know this, and very much HOPE you can answer.  You've already been very forthcoming in your replies here in this thread, and I for one want to thank you very much for doing that (possibly even against the advice of your attorneys, but I think in the hope that your going thru this might help others avoid it... very much appreciated man. Gracias.)

Of course, asking anyway but NOT gonna hold my breath for any intelligent reply from Burt's oppressors 

(The "other side" here in this situation is probably far too COWARDLY to actually speak up here, and HELL YES this is an insult BAIT to make you people fucking ANSWER US here... got it?) Let's HEAR it, and please never forget you are a PUBLIC SERVANT and WE, THE TAXPAYERS out here in the real world are the ones who are PAYING YOUR SALARY that enables you to DO this SHIT to undeserving citizens like Burt and his family.

KEVLARR

[JorgeStolfi]

For example, I noticed that one of the localbitcoins vendors in my area has some "legal disclaimer" text at the bottom of his listing, outlining such things as like "buyer acknowledges and agrees that by replying to this ad that any bitcoin or portion thereof shall not be used for any illegal purposes" and

I am not a lawyer, but I don't think that such a disclaimer dispenses the seller from KYC/AML requirements, or protects him fully in case the buyer uses the bitcoins for illegal purposes.  The seller may have to convince the jury that he did not know and had no reasonable way of knowing.

even things like "buyer acknowledges and agrees that this transaction represents only a person to person, constitutionally protected TRADE transaction and not anything related to COMMERCE, interstate or international etc inclusive" and "does not represent professional business or corporate activity but only private party, personal use, hobbyist exchange" etc etc etc.

I bet that such disclaimer is worth less than nothing, if law enforcement decides, based on the amount and number of transactinos, that the seller is in fact doing "commerce" or " professional business or corporate activity", rather than just "private party, personal use, hobbyist exchange".  The buyer is not able or entitled to vouch for that.  Such disclaimer would only show that the seller was aware of the need of registration in order to engage in commercial activity, and of the special needs for interstate and international commerce.

IF in fact Burt HAD this FinCEN license, would that have BEEN ENOUGH FOR [law enforcement] TO LEAVE HIM ALONE???

He would also have to comply with whatever KYC/AML requirements come with that license.  

Although his charges mention oly 1 count of unlicensed MTB, that count incldues three items, the third one being transmitting money that was "dirty" and destined for illegal uses.  depending on what that means, simply being licensed may not have been enough.

[BurtW]

Great news today!

http://dailycaller.com/2015/04/10/breaking-new-mexico-gov-abolishes-civil-asset-forfeiture-bill/

One down, 49 more to go.

[SpanishSoldier]

Great news today!

http://dailycaller.com/2015/04/10/breaking-new-mexico-gov-abolishes-civil-asset-forfeiture-bill/

One down, 49 more to go.

Can u provide the URL from where your signature statement is taken ?

[lucullus]

Great news today!

http://dailycaller.com/2015/04/10/breaking-new-mexico-gov-abolishes-civil-asset-forfeiture-bill/

One down, 49 more to go.

You have a chance in the court to get your assets back, according to the article