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Author Topic: Announcing the Satoshi Roundtable crypto retreat  (Read 9862 times)
BruceFenton (OP)
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January 24, 2015, 02:30:49 PM
 #1

Hi,

The event is basically full for this year but I thought Bitcoin Talk might still want to know about it in case anyone would like to request a wait list invite as well as to plan for next year.

Satoshi Roundtable is a private Bitcoin and crypto retreat taking place Feb 6-8 at a private resort in the Caribbean.  Invitation only and limited to 60 attendees.

http://satoshiroundtable.org


Confirmed attendees include:

Steve Beauregard, CEO, GoCoin
Vitalik Buterin, Ethereum
Michael Cao, CEO Zoom Hash
Dave Carlson, Mega Big Power
Nic Cary, CEO Blockchain
Reeve Collins, CEO, Tether
Tuur Demeester, Bitcoin Economist
Anthony DiIorio, Bitcoin Decentral, CrytpoKit, Ethereum
Bruce Fenton, Atlantic Financial / Bitcoin Association
Paige Freeman, Co-Founder, Women in Bitcoin
David Johnston, DApps Fund, Mastercoin, Factom
Charlie Lee, Coinbase/ Creator LiteCoin
Vinny Lingham, CEO Gyft
Marshall Long, CEO Final Hash
Trace Mayer, Author, investor, early adopter
Ira Miller, CEO, Coinapult
Patrick Murck, Executive Director, Bitcoin Foundation
Joel Monegro, Union Square Ventures
Brock Pierce, Crypto Currency Partners
Elizabeth Rossiello, CEO BitPesa
Matthew Roszak, Tally Capital
Marco Santori, Pillsbury Winthrop
Craig Sellars, CTO Mastercoin
Paul Snow, Texas Bitcoin Alliance and Factom
Nick Sullivan, CEO ChangeTip
Peter Todd, Core Developer
Roger Ver, Memory Dealers
Erik Voorhees, Coinapult
And many others …


Sorry it is full.  If you want to be placed on the wait list in the case of a cancelation you can send an email to members@satoshiroundtable.org
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January 24, 2015, 06:02:26 PM
 #2

Is that the Dominican Republic or the location is secret and you just post a generic Carribean location photo?
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January 24, 2015, 06:11:34 PM
 #3

I didn't realize how genius the Satoshi Roundtable logo was before I saw the Shiba Inu.

BruceFenton (OP)
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January 25, 2015, 12:23:22 AM
 #4

I didn't realize how genius the Satoshi Roundtable logo was before I saw the Shiba Inu.


Thank you!

And note the "Block" "chain" surrounding it...faces covered, 010101000. Etc.

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January 25, 2015, 12:31:53 AM
 #5

Is that the Dominican Republic or the location is secret and you just post a generic Carribean location photo?

They don't seem to reveal it I think... But it's a good thing and looks like a get-together sort of...

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January 25, 2015, 12:47:07 AM
 #6

So how will the discussions that come out of this meeting be shared with the community?

There's not much for all of us to gain from this otherwise, since it's already booked and we can't get any tickets.

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January 25, 2015, 01:35:33 AM
 #7

Tuur Demeester, Bitcoin Economist

Nooo, there's Bitcoin Economists now? save us!
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January 25, 2015, 01:37:46 AM
 #8

Tuur Demeester, Bitcoin Economist

Nooo, there's Bitcoin Economists now? save us!

The Paul Krugman of Bitcoin?
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January 25, 2015, 01:50:49 AM
 #9

Tuur Demeester, Bitcoin Economist

Nooo, there's Bitcoin Economists now? save us!

The Paul Krugman of Bitcoin?

The guy is branding himself as an investor type.

From tuurdemeester.com:
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January 25, 2015, 02:22:38 AM
 #10

So how will the discussions that come out of this meeting be shared with the community?

There's not much for all of us to gain from this otherwise, since it's already booked and we can't get any tickets.

It's like a private dinner but we will make every effort to make it as transparent as possible.

One purpose of posting this was so that people coiod ask for a wait list invite if there is a cancelation.

Another is just to let people know it exists.

Some video and notes will be taken but it will be a private event not public, so the difference is that people will be encouraged to speak more freely.   FOR example....many CEOs will not criticise regulators in a public event because they fear reprisals from the regulators.   Another example is that some CEOs fear to attack known scams in public because they don't want attacks from scammers or to be associated with them (even as a critic) in the newspaper.   There are other examples....but these are a couple of reasons why some types of interaction can be beneficial if not wide open publicly with press etc.
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January 25, 2015, 03:40:47 AM
 #11

So how will the discussions that come out of this meeting be shared with the community?

There's not much for all of us to gain from this otherwise, since it's already booked and we can't get any tickets.

FOR example....many CEOs will not criticise regulators in a public event because they fear reprisals from the regulators.   Another example is that some CEOs fear to attack known scams in public because they don't want attacks from scammers or to be associated with them (even as a critic) in the newspaper.   There are other examples....but these are a couple of reasons why some types of interaction can be beneficial if not wide open publicly with press etc.

I bet Roger Ver and Erik Voorhees can get the conspiracy theories going. Will you check for hidden microphones?  Wink
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January 25, 2015, 03:45:36 AM
 #12

Will you check for hidden microphones?  Wink

Attendees should be discouraged from connecting to that open network named "Hotel Guest" and leaving unencrypted laptops in their hotel rooms  Cool
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January 25, 2015, 01:49:49 PM
 #13


I bet Roger Ver and Erik Voorhees can get the conspiracy theories going. Will you check for hidden microphones?  Wink


Erik and I joked about hiring an actor to dress as an Army officer and post it on Reddit as "NSA briefs Bitcoin group...photo leaked".

Smiley
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January 25, 2015, 06:41:26 PM
 #14

Satoshi Round Table, the Bilderberg group of Bitcoin.
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January 25, 2015, 08:02:51 PM
 #15

Satoshi Round Table, the Bilderberg group of Bitcoin.

Oh no
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January 29, 2015, 04:15:29 PM
 #16

We haven't put the location mainly because we don't want people to go to the trouble of flying there only to find that there are no on-site registrations.
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January 29, 2015, 10:37:27 PM
 #17


Steve Beauregard, CEO, GoCoin
Vitalik Buterin, Ethereum
Michael Cao, CEO Zoom Hash
Dave Carlson, Mega Big Power
Nic Cary, CEO Blockchain
Reeve Collins, CEO, Tether
Tuur Demeester, Bitcoin Economist
Anthony DiIorio, Bitcoin Decentral, CrytpoKit, Ethereum
Bruce Fenton, Atlantic Financial / Bitcoin Association
Paige Freeman, Co-Founder, Women in Bitcoin
David Johnston, DApps Fund, Mastercoin, Factom
Charlie Lee, Coinbase/ Creator LiteCoin
Vinny Lingham, CEO Gyft
Marshall Long, CEO Final Hash
Trace Mayer, Author, investor, early adopter
Ira Miller, CEO, Coinapult
Patrick Murck, Executive Director, Bitcoin Foundation
Joel Monegro, Union Square Ventures
Brock Pierce, Crypto Currency Partners
Elizabeth Rossiello, CEO BitPesa
Matthew Roszak, Tally Capital
Marco Santori, Pillsbury Winthrop
Craig Sellars, CTO Mastercoin
Paul Snow, Texas Bitcoin Alliance and Factom
Nick Sullivan, CEO ChangeTip
Peter Todd, Core Developer
Roger Ver, Memory Dealers
Erik Voorhees, Coinapult
And many others …


Sorry it is full.  If you want to be placed on the wait list in the case of a cancelation you can send an email to members@satoshiroundtable.org

Delighted it's full. Who on earth would want to met all the scammers and deluded libertards in this list? Unless you plan to expose them?
Seriously, well over half of them have already stolen people's bitcoins, will do so or will get hacked because dumbness prevails.

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January 31, 2015, 02:57:52 AM
 #18

The list has been updated since this, some new names added and some moved off.

Not sure how you define people as "scammers" the list is a well respected group of people who speak at events often and includes early adopters, venture capitalists, CEOs of venture backed companies and developers.
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January 31, 2015, 07:20:33 PM
 #19

What a load of bollocks  Roll Eyes
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February 02, 2015, 08:26:11 PM
 #20

I hope then next conference to be in a Greek Island. Is more funny and beauty form every other island in the world Tongue

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February 02, 2015, 10:01:30 PM
 #21

I wonder how you guys missed Tim Draper ?


http://satoshiroundtable.org


Confirmed attendees include:

Steve Beauregard, CEO, GoCoin
Vitalik Buterin, Ethereum
Michael Cao, CEO Zoom Hash
Dave Carlson, Mega Big Power
Nic Cary, CEO Blockchain
Reeve Collins, CEO, Tether
Tuur Demeester, Bitcoin Economist
Anthony DiIorio, Bitcoin Decentral, CrytpoKit, Ethereum
Bruce Fenton, Atlantic Financial / Bitcoin Association
Paige Freeman, Co-Founder, Women in Bitcoin
David Johnston, DApps Fund, Mastercoin, Factom
Charlie Lee, Coinbase/ Creator LiteCoin
Vinny Lingham, CEO Gyft
Marshall Long, CEO Final Hash
Trace Mayer, Author, investor, early adopter
Ira Miller, CEO, Coinapult
Patrick Murck, Executive Director, Bitcoin Foundation
Joel Monegro, Union Square Ventures
Brock Pierce, Crypto Currency Partners
Elizabeth Rossiello, CEO BitPesa
Matthew Roszak, Tally Capital
Marco Santori, Pillsbury Winthrop
Craig Sellars, CTO Mastercoin
Paul Snow, Texas Bitcoin Alliance and Factom
Nick Sullivan, CEO ChangeTip
Peter Todd, Core Developer
Roger Ver, Memory Dealers
Erik Voorhees, Coinapult
And many others …


Sorry it is full.  If you want to be placed on the wait list in the case of a cancelation you can send an email to members@satoshiroundtable.org

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February 02, 2015, 10:18:26 PM
Last edit: February 02, 2015, 10:38:29 PM by Blazr
 #22

Admittedly I do not know who a lot about Bruce Fenton, I know he ran for election for the Bitcoin foundation, but I noticed something that is somewhat concerning.

I've been doing some digging into this website satoshiroundtable.org for fun. The whois information for it shows:

Code:
Tech Name:Bruce Fenton
Tech Organization:AF
Tech Street: 167 Washington Street
Tech City:Norwell
Tech State/Province:Massachusetts
Tech Postal Code:02061
Tech Country:US
Tech Phone:+1.6173814907
Tech Phone Ext:
Tech Fax:
Tech Fax Ext:
Tech Email:domainadmin@fdvt.com

The WHOIS information for fdvt has the same address:

Code:
Tech Organization: FDVT
Tech Street: 167 Washington Street
Tech City: Norwell
Tech State/Province: MA
Tech Postal Code: 02061
Tech Country: US
Tech Phone: +1.7819824911
Tech Phone Ext.:
Tech Fax:
Tech Fax Ext.:
Tech Email: domainadmin@fdvt.com

Now for the weird/conspiracy bit, check out the website http://fdvt.com

Quote
FDVT was founded in 1985.  We provide solutions to help understand changes in our world.  Specifically we provide IT consulting, Internet consulting, social media consulting, security and economic advisory consulting.

Customers of FDVT include:

US Army
US Navy
US Coast Guard
US Air Force
US Postal Service
US Postal Inspector Service
FBI - Federal Bureau of Investigation
IRS - Internal Revue Service
DEA - Drug Enforcement Agency
Veterans Administration
City Of New York and New York Police Department (NYPD)
Eastern Bank
TCF Bank
Bank of America

Why does this company FDVT has some connection to the Satoshi Roundtable? This is concerning.

EDIT: apparently the connection between Bruce Fenton and FDVT has been known for sometime. Here is a reply he made on reddit when asked about it:

Quote
My investment firm, Atlantic Financial, bought the company Fleetwood Video some years back and changed the name to FDVT or Fleetwood Digital Technology Corp.- I believe 2004 or so but I am not positive -- certainly quite a while back. A family of a deceased business owner approached me and asked me to buy the business for what seemed to be a cheap rate. I figured it had enough revenue to cover the purchase cost and some goodwill from being so old (founded in 1985) and the customer list and registration to do business with the government.

The company served the clients mentioned - mainly selling blank video tapes for security cameras. That's pretty much what the business did. One of the Atlantic Financial employees had plans to make it into more of a broad consulting company but we didn't.

The company continued those services for a couple years as the contracts wound down and never worked in those areas again. We considered pursuing some government business but didn't. The company never asked for or got any new government contracts and the one part time employee who was on board with the aquisition moved on -- the internal employee working on it moved on. The small amount of revenue that came in covered most of the costs of the purchase.

I had thought that the business might have had value since it is a service disabled veteran business and I'm a disabled vet -- but I never used that certification or pursued those lines of business. It's really not my cup of tea. I had also considered using the business as a vehicle to help out a freind who is a martial arts trainer who had trained military and police - so he could run contracts through the business since it was registered in all the databases needed to do business with the government but it was too much effort relative to the reward.

We scrapped all the inventory, delisted all contracts with all government agencies and turned the shell of what was left into basically a catch all for web development and domain names we are afflicted with. The company took on a couple small web consulting clients in later years.

At the time -- 2004 or so, I was not as adamantly against the government as I am now. I had some interest in some types of government contracts -- I didn't pursue them but some of the work such as USAID efforts in Pakistan and security work interested me. I didn't pursue it, it doesn't interest me now and I don't do any government work now. Even the tiny bit of work that this company, which was owned by my company did was not something I was personally active in or profited from.

I am only giving so much information for full disclosure. That client list is pretty similar for Google, Microsoft, Dell etc Etc. The government buys a lot of stuff. I don't like it, I don't prefer working woth government and I wish they were smaller.

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February 02, 2015, 10:20:09 PM
Last edit: February 02, 2015, 10:59:21 PM by bambou
 #23

now this is beyond pathetic..

edit: brock pierce on a private island.. sleep tight Cheesy

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February 03, 2015, 08:29:43 AM
 #24

tim draper probably refused the invite LOL

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February 03, 2015, 11:48:10 AM
 #25

tim draper probably refused the invite LOL

Also they dont have Josh Garza, who bought btc.com for 1m USD !!!

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February 03, 2015, 03:11:33 PM
 #26

It's not a matter of making a joke, just a comment on how strange conspiracy theories are.

I thought it would be cool to get a group together and have some fun in the sun.  That's it, nothing more.

The origin of the idea was in Toronto, Nic Cary and I were talking and it was a great event but rather busy and loud...one of us, I think Nic, said "This is a great event, would be cool if we had an event with more time to just hang out with the speakers."   I said, "Great idea, I could organize that."  We walked over to Dave Carlson who was 10 feet away, he said he was in and then I emailed Roger Ver and he said he was in.  Once we had the 4 of us I knew it would work so I chose a location and invited 50 more people or so.

That's it.  It was never, ever contemplated that it would be a conspiracy of any sort.  Just a fun chance to hang out and talk geek stuff.

The only reason for the exclusivity is due to space retraints.

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February 03, 2015, 03:11:54 PM
 #27

Garza would not be welcome.
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February 03, 2015, 06:16:37 PM
 #28

It's not a matter of making a joke, just a comment on how strange conspiracy theories are.

I thought it would be cool to get a group together and have some fun in the sun.  That's it, nothing more.

The origin of the idea was in Toronto, Nic Cary and I were talking and it was a great event but rather busy and loud...one of us, I think Nic, said "This is a great event, would be cool if we had an event with more time to just hang out with the speakers."   I said, "Great idea, I could organize that."  We walked over to Dave Carlson who was 10 feet away, he said he was in and then I emailed Roger Ver and he said he was in.  Once we had the 4 of us I knew it would work so I chose a location and invited 50 more people or so.

That's it.  It was never, ever contemplated that it would be a conspiracy of any sort.  Just a fun chance to hang out and talk geek stuff.

The only reason for the exclusivity is due to space retraints.



Care to share your association with the following ?

Quote

US Army
US Navy
US Coast Guard
US Air Force
US Postal Service
US Postal Inspector Service
FBI - Federal Bureau of Investigation
IRS - Internal Revue Service
DEA - Drug Enforcement Agency
Veterans Administration
City Of New York and New York Police Department (NYPD)
Eastern Bank
TCF Bank
Bank of America

Garza would not be welcome.

Moreover, if Garza is not welcome, why is Vitalik Buterin ? One has used ether to raise million and the other has used PayCoin to raise million.
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February 03, 2015, 07:09:01 PM
 #29

In an earlier post I alresdy explained my "association" with those government agencies which is none.

About 10+ years ago I bought a small tech company from the widow of tne man who ran it.  The company sold blank video tapes to the US government.

We continued that business for a couple years then ceased it and didn't pursue new govt. business.  We turned the company into a tech and consulting company.

Not sure if you realize that the client list is the same for Amazon, Google, Facebook, Google, Microsoft, Ford, Dell etc.

In any event I was not involved in working with those clients, never profited from it and do not now nor do I intend to pursue government clients.

I'm anti war, anti government.
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February 03, 2015, 07:13:53 PM
 #30

I hope the meeting goes well.

I'd be interested to hear feedback from the event.

Run a Bitcoin node, support the network.
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February 03, 2015, 07:25:08 PM
 #31

Is the meeting private or the resort?
Is there going to be a video of the meeting?

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February 03, 2015, 07:34:05 PM
 #32

I hope the meeting goes well.

I'd be interested to hear feedback from the event.

Thank you!
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February 03, 2015, 07:34:46 PM
 #33

Is the meeting private or the resort?
Is there going to be a video of the meeting?

Yes, both are private.
Yes we will make a video for those who wish to have thiers released.
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February 03, 2015, 08:56:25 PM
 #34

Is the meeting private or the resort?
Is there going to be a video of the meeting?

Yes, both are private.
Yes we will make a video for those who wish to have thiers released.
Short summary or is it going to be recorded?  You must understand that a lot of people do not like 'secret meetings' in regards to Bitcoin.

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February 03, 2015, 09:01:26 PM
 #35

Is the meeting private or the resort?
Is there going to be a video of the meeting?

Yes, both are private.
Yes we will make a video for those who wish to have thiers released.
Short summary or is it going to be recorded?  You must understand that a lot of people do not like 'secret meetings' in regards to Bitcoin.

Who gives a shit what they do, it's a free world.....isn't it ?

I still think it's still a load of bollocks though Roll Eyes
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February 04, 2015, 02:37:26 PM
 #36

I want to thank Bruce for the opportunity to join, and hope it's going to be fun, with fruits maturing over the coming months and years.

See you later today! Smiley

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February 04, 2015, 06:13:39 PM
 #37

Is the meeting private or the resort?
Is there going to be a video of the meeting?
Also bitcoin magazine should bring the video, no? I think i saw it on coinbase.

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February 05, 2015, 12:37:44 PM
 #38

Yes there will be video.

No one will be forced to be on video if they do not want to be.

Privacy is important and, unless part of a voluntary agreement people have no right to another's privacy.  For example, no one would expect us to invite a member of government to keep tabs or expect us to ask guests to disclose the number of coins they have.

There are many reasons people prefer privacy in certain circumstances.
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February 08, 2015, 03:08:15 PM
 #39

Yes there will be video.

No one will be forced to be on video if they do not want to be.

Privacy is important and, unless part of a voluntary agreement people have no right to another's privacy.  For example, no one would expect us to invite a member of government to keep tabs or expect us to ask guests to disclose the number of coins they have.

There are many reasons people prefer privacy in certain circumstances.
I'm sure you can have a secret meeting with more actual transparency than the Bitcoin Foundation's claims to transparency while pursuing secrecy.
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February 09, 2015, 02:06:09 AM
 #40

Hi,

The event is basically full for this year but I thought Bitcoin Talk might still want to know about it in case anyone would like to request a wait list invite as well as to plan for next year.

Satoshi Roundtable is a private Bitcoin and crypto retreat taking place Feb 6-8 at a private resort in the Caribbean.  Invitation only and limited to 60 attendees.

http://satoshiroundtable.org


Confirmed attendees include:

Steve Beauregard, CEO, GoCoin
Vitalik Buterin, Ethereum
Michael Cao, CEO Zoom Hash
Dave Carlson, Mega Big Power
Nic Cary, CEO Blockchain
Reeve Collins, CEO, Tether
Tuur Demeester, Bitcoin Economist
Anthony DiIorio, Bitcoin Decentral, CrytpoKit, Ethereum
Bruce Fenton, Atlantic Financial / Bitcoin Association
Paige Freeman, Co-Founder, Women in Bitcoin
David Johnston, DApps Fund, Mastercoin, Factom
Charlie Lee, Coinbase/ Creator LiteCoin
Vinny Lingham, CEO Gyft
Marshall Long, CEO Final Hash
Trace Mayer, Author, investor, early adopter
Ira Miller, CEO, Coinapult
Patrick Murck, Executive Director, Bitcoin Foundation
Joel Monegro, Union Square Ventures
Brock Pierce, Crypto Currency Partners
Elizabeth Rossiello, CEO BitPesa
Matthew Roszak, Tally Capital
Marco Santori, Pillsbury Winthrop
Craig Sellars, CTO Mastercoin
Paul Snow, Texas Bitcoin Alliance and Factom
Nick Sullivan, CEO ChangeTip
Peter Todd, Core Developer
Roger Ver, Memory Dealers
Erik Voorhees, Coinapult
And many others …


Sorry it is full.  If you want to be placed on the wait list in the case of a cancelation you can send an email to members@satoshiroundtable.org

Congrats on reminding the world that Bitcoin wealth is an elite club and the initial distribution of coins was extremely favorable for a small amount of people.
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February 09, 2015, 05:36:38 PM
 #41

Hi,

The event is basically full for this year but I thought Bitcoin Talk might still want to know about it in case anyone would like to request a wait list invite as well as to plan for next year.

Satoshi Roundtable is a private Bitcoin and crypto retreat taking place Feb 6-8 at a private resort in the Caribbean.  Invitation only and limited to 60 attendees.

http://satoshiroundtable.org


Confirmed attendees include:

Steve Beauregard, CEO, GoCoin
Vitalik Buterin, Ethereum
Michael Cao, CEO Zoom Hash
Dave Carlson, Mega Big Power
Nic Cary, CEO Blockchain
Reeve Collins, CEO, Tether
Tuur Demeester, Bitcoin Economist
Anthony DiIorio, Bitcoin Decentral, CrytpoKit, Ethereum
Bruce Fenton, Atlantic Financial / Bitcoin Association
Paige Freeman, Co-Founder, Women in Bitcoin
David Johnston, DApps Fund, Mastercoin, Factom
Charlie Lee, Coinbase/ Creator LiteCoin
Vinny Lingham, CEO Gyft
Marshall Long, CEO Final Hash
Trace Mayer, Author, investor, early adopter
Ira Miller, CEO, Coinapult
Patrick Murck, Executive Director, Bitcoin Foundation
Joel Monegro, Union Square Ventures
Brock Pierce, Crypto Currency Partners
Elizabeth Rossiello, CEO BitPesa
Matthew Roszak, Tally Capital
Marco Santori, Pillsbury Winthrop
Craig Sellars, CTO Mastercoin
Paul Snow, Texas Bitcoin Alliance and Factom
Nick Sullivan, CEO ChangeTip
Peter Todd, Core Developer
Roger Ver, Memory Dealers
Erik Voorhees, Coinapult
And many others …


Sorry it is full.  If you want to be placed on the wait list in the case of a cancelation you can send an email to members@satoshiroundtable.org

Congrats on reminding the world that Bitcoin wealth is an elite club and the initial distribution of coins was extremely favorable for a small amount of people.

This is true of all currencies and is a consequence of engaging in a monetary system. If you want something different, I suggest looking into a resource based economy.

At the party, I think it would be fun to have one of those murder mystery games going on. You could all discover a dead dollar bill, and run around trying to discover who killed fiat currency. In the end, it would be discovered that it was bitcoin who killed fiat, in the global economy, with the truth.

Bitcoin combines money, the wrongest thing in the world, with software, the easiest thing in the world to get wrong.
Visit www.thevenusproject.com and www.theZeitgeistMovement.com.
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February 17, 2015, 01:10:27 PM
 #42

There seems to have been nothing reported from this secret meeting. I wonder what they hoped to accomplish?

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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February 17, 2015, 02:51:04 PM
 #43

There seems to have been nothing reported from this secret meeting. I wonder what they hoped to accomplish?

Well,  I reported on my small part. It is notable that I was perhaps the least connected (to the other participants) member there, so for me the priorities were biased to getting to know people, instead of accomplishing a specific objective.

HIM TVA Dragon, AOK-GM, Emperor of the Earth, Creator of the World, King of Crypto Kingdom, Lord of Malla, AOD-GEN, SA-GEN5, Ministry of Plenty (Join NOW!), Professor of Economics and Theology, Ph.D, AM, Chairman, Treasurer, Founder, CEO, 3*MG-2, 82*OHK, NKP, WTF, FFF, etc(x3)
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