How to trade on LocalBitcoins without going to jail

[QuestionAuthority]

The recent arrest of BurtW, the previous arrests and my own use of LBC made me start thinking about safety. How can we exchange bitcoins between individuals safely if trading them is illegal? Are there legal ways to trade btc for dollars? Are the arrests simply because the seller knew the illegal intent of the buyer? Are the arrests because btc can't be sold for fiat without an expensive license? Is their a limit to the dollar amount that can be traded legally without a license? I want to use Bitcoin but I don't want to go to jail what can I do?

It seems to me that all of the problems stem from trading bitcoins for dollars and prior knowledge of the illegal use of the btc after the sale. This seems easy to fix. Ensure that when you first introduce yourself during the trade the first thing you say is this:

Hello, pleased to meet you.

Because of the recent problems with LBC, I need to tell you something before we begin and I need you to wait until I finish speaking before you respond.

I am recording this conversation remotely.

Anything you say about illegal activity will be reported to the proper authorities and stop the sale so please do not talk about any illegal activity.

I do not sell bitcoins for dollars. I trade bitcoins for apples. I brought a sample of my favorite apple with me. (Point to apple)

I would appreciate a donation to my favorite charity as a reward for my time.

You can bring the apples to me later don't worry about having them now.

How many bitcoins would you like? He tells you the amount (let's say one btc) and you tell him with a $237 donation to your favorate charity presented to you now to deliver to the charity that will be 2 apples.

If he agrees, he hands you the "donation" and you transfer the btc.

Does anyone see a problem with this? Would this work? It's very sad that we have come to the point of camouflaging our trades but I see no other way.

[jaberwock]

Under what jurisdiction are you?

Instead of apples you might change to silver or magic card or something that looks less jokish, if allowed wherever you are.

[QuestionAuthority]

Under what jurisdiction are you?

Instead of apples you might change to silver or magic card or something that looks less jokish, if allowed wherever you are.

The Imperial Republic of Ameristan (USA).

You can make the apple whatever you like.

[--Encrypted--]

if you're thinking that this might save the apple trader in the court and NOT from getting caught while doing transaction then yes, it just might work, but the poor apple trader will need a fairly good lawyer for that. 

[neurotypical]

It's too off putting and too much of a hassle. How can Bitcoin ever go mainstream if stuff like this happens? it sucks that we cannot freely trade.
For all I know they have succeed into making people afraid to trade anymore, im not using LocalBitcoins again.. maybe decentralized exchanges are the way to go? or we need legit regulations? (Gemini)

[QuestionAuthority]

Not a bad idea, a judge might say don't be so stupid but it probably stands up technically. Another option may be terms of use for localbitcoins or their escrow service so anyone saying they intend using the coins for illegal purposes make themselves liable for prosecution and on the other side anyone selling has no responsibility for the way the coins they sold are used.

That might help but the real issue seems to be getting trapped by money transmitter laws. Acting as an illegal money transmitter and knowing you are selling a large amount to drug traffickers is a double whammy. No statement on LBC is going to work for that.

[QuestionAuthority]

It's too off putting and too much of a hassle. How can Bitcoin ever go mainstream if stuff like this happens? it sucks that we cannot freely trade.
For all I know they have succeed into making people afraid to trade anymore, im not using LocalBitcoins again.. maybe decentralized exchanges are the way to go? or we need legit regulations? (Gemini)

It is a hassle. Fighting for freedom usually is. This puritan dictatorship is not going to stop me.

[inBitweTrust]

In reality their is plenty of ambiguity to be interpreted between the different laws and department regulations that there is no clear cut guidance as to how to be sure you won't be in trouble. Additionally states have a history of not even following their own rules and regulations in letter and /or spirit.

This being said all the cases have suggested that every targeted sting has focused on very large sums of money - over 10k and the buyer making it known that the BTC would be used for illegal purposes to the seller.

Thus...if you simply limit your sales to transactions under 10k and immediately turn away anyone insinuating the illegal activity than you will likely be fine. Does the IRS and police go after yard sales for not having a proper business license or reporting income on a regular basis?

That whole speech is probably unnecessary and may even hurt you because it sounds like you are deliberately trying to manipulate the system and would look bad to a investigator and/or jury.

[Madness]

LOL , well that's funny You would really do that and record it ?
my country personally just don't give a fuck about anything and don't even know what bitcoin is  etc ... so I know I'am safe but why you guys just don't trade on forums and Bitcointalk is a good example, just trade with someone using Wester Union , MasterCard , Paypal or whatever makes you comfortable .

[QuestionAuthority]

In reality their is plenty of ambiguity to be interpreted between the different laws and department regulations that there is no clear cut guidance as to how to be sure you won't be in trouble. Additionally states have a history of not even following their own rules and regulations in letter and /or spirit.

This being said all the cases have suggested that every targeted sting has focused on very large sums of money - over 10k and the buyer making it known that the BTC would be used for illegal purposes to the seller.

Thus...if you simply limit your sales to transactions under 10k and immediately turn away anyone insinuating the illegal activity than you will likely be fine. Does the IRS and police go after yard sales for not having a proper business license or reporting income on a regular basis?

That whole speech is probably unnecessary and may even hurt you because it sounds like you are deliberately trying to manipulate the system and would look bad to a investigator and/or jury.

I don't think so. Playing the recording for a jury would sound like you had no intention of supporting illegal activity and were actively trying to stop it from happening.

[neurotypical]

In reality their is plenty of ambiguity to be interpreted between the different laws and department regulations that there is no clear cut guidance as to how to be sure you won't be in trouble. Additionally states have a history of not even following their own rules and regulations in letter and /or spirit.

This being said all the cases have suggested that every targeted sting has focused on very large sums of money - over 10k and the buyer making it known that the BTC would be used for illegal purposes to the seller.

Thus...if you simply limit your sales to transactions under 10k and immediately turn away anyone insinuating the illegal activity than you will likely be fine. Does the IRS and police go after yard sales for not having a proper business license or reporting income on a regular basis?

That whole speech is probably unnecessary and may even hurt you because it sounds like you are deliberately trying to manipulate the system and would look bad to a investigator and/or jury.

Yeah, i don't think the disclaimer is going to work agains the powers that be. We need something and we need it fast. If LocalBitcoins goes down due constant lose of trust it will be a big hit.

[Meuh6879]

How to trade on LocalBitcoins without going to jail

FinTract recommandation (obligation ?) :
- copy of passport of every buyer
- copy of licence driver of every buyer
- less than 300 USD per month and per person (buyer)
- IRS declaration for seller

You're welcome.

[michaeladair]

Not a bad idea, a judge might say don't be so stupid but it probably stands up technically. Another option may be terms of use for localbitcoins or their escrow service so anyone saying they intend using the coins for illegal purposes make themselves liable for prosecution and on the other side anyone selling has no responsibility for the way the coins they sold are used.

If Judge says that's stupid: "Well don't you think an Online Currency is also stupid, your Honor... I mean, it's basically the same as trading Runescape gold for cash."

[QuestionAuthority]

There's a market for a localbitcoins phone app to put you in touch with people in your area and disclaimers can be pretty effective, this is regulators trying to force there way into the process and they can GTFO,.

It might help and there's no reason to not have it. But this is war and we need to arm ourselves as best we can. Why should I go to a regulated exchange and have them gouge me with fees? I've traded over 10k in btc before. That's pretty easy to do when the price is in the $800 range. What are we going to do when and if 1 btc = $10k? We need to do something to protect ourselves.

[inBitweTrust]

Here is my suggested version:

Hello, pleased to meet you. Before we proceed I want to make sure you understand that I do not support or condone any illegal activities or money laundering with Bitcoin. Bitcoin is a digital asset that I am willing to trade for currency as long as you obey all applicable laws. If you mention or insinuate any illegal use than I will immediately cease all trade with you now and in the future.

As I am merely trading bitcoins with you as a favor for your convenience I will not perform trades that exceed 10k dollars in value of the assets.

Of course your should record the conversation, and in jurisdictions which have a 1 party consent law (remember filming/recording is ok in public without consent, but you may be meeting them on private property - cafe or restaurant)  just record the conversation and upload it to a server in realtime with(bambuser) and in 2 party consent locations, tell the person you are recording for both your security.

[QuestionAuthority]

Here is my suggested version:

Hello, pleased to meet you. Before we proceed I want to make sure you understand that I do not support or condone any illegal activities or money laundering with Bitcoin. Bitcoin is a digital asset that I am willing to trade for currency as long as you obey all applicable laws. If you mention or insinuate any illegal use than I will immediately cease all trade with you now and in the future.

As I am merely trading bitcoins with you as a favor for your convenience I will not perform trades that exceed 10k dollars in value of the assets.

That's good but you still limit the amount you can trade. If you trade $9,999 with him then you can never trade with him again or likely make another trade to anyone because you've become a money services business.

[inBitweTrust]

That's good but you still limit the amount you can trade. If you trade $9,999 with him then you can never trade with him again or likely make another trade to anyone because you've become a money services business.

If you are trading with strangers over 10k a year than you are opening yourself up for problems. Either follow all regulations, or have "affiliates" conduct multiple trades on your behalf.

Trading with close friends, partners or family members can be done with over 10k as long as trust is insured and  you have good reason they aren't involved in anything illegal. Once they are involved in illegality than they can be caught and sign a plea agreement to attack you.

If you are involved in illegal activity and or support it prepare for the possibility of being caught.

Remember, the IRS and FBI isn't profitable if they have to attack and perform sting operations on thousands of individuals. They will only go after the large cases and clear cut jury wins where they can pin multiple crimes on one individual and seize many assets.

[QuestionAuthority]

That's good but you still limit the amount you can trade. If you trade $9,999 with him then you can never trade with him again or likely make another trade to anyone because you've become a money services business.

If you are trading with strangers over 10k a year than you are opening yourself up for problems. Either follow all regulations, or have "affiliates" conduct multiple trades on your behalf.

Of course you're risking it. Having a network of affiliates would require paying them I assume. That would negate the value in LBC trades. Although, I do like the idea if you were in the Starbucks or wherever and secretly overseeing the trade.

[inBitweTrust]

Another solution:

Darkwallet has solved this problem temporarily by teaming up with Chip Chap to withdraw through their ATM's :

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/dark-wallet-now-with-cash

But eventually there may be regulatory pressure placed on the ATM operators.

Additionally, this is merely a temporary problem during a transitional period where we need some fiat. In the future with enough widespread acceptance of crypto-currencies we can trade between them from decentralized platforms and not even touch dirty fiat.

[QuestionAuthority]

Another solution:

Darkwallet has solved this problem temporarily by teaming up with Chip Chap to withdraw through their ATM's :

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/dark-wallet-now-with-cash

But eventually there may be regulatory pressure placed on the ATM operators.

Completely hiding the transaction is the best way. Anonymity is preferred but that probably won't work for long if it ever works.