REMOVE NUBBINS FROM THE DEFAULT TRUST LIST FOR REPEATED TRUST ABUSE

[Quickseller]

The comment on BadBear's negative trust is that he was giving fake customer reviews. Fake reviews is a scammy behavior.

"fake reviews" is once again solely relying on the fact that he is either an alt or a scammer, neither of which have any proof being presented about it from anyone, just tons of accusations and speculation in mob format.

the fake reviews rely on the fact that they are alts of wood collector. In your previous post you said that for the sake of arguement you would assume they are his alts.

Regardless of how good WC's work is, if he is using his own alt accounts to tell others they are satisfied customers when they are really not is scammy. It is very similar to buying trust.

Now you are twisting my words. For the sake of argument doesn't mean I agree. I disagree. I think WoodCollector has absolutely no alts. "for the sake of argument" means lets put that premise aside for a moment and examine his evidence for calling him a scammer on its own right independent of the alt accusations. Literally EVERY TIME there is conflict on this forum some asshat comes out and claims some one is an alt of some one else, this is probably the single most abused and unprovable accusation on the forum.

Right. But if you were to assume they are WC's alts (I know you disagree but lets say that you were shown proof), wouldn't you say that giving yourself fake reviews is something that you would consider scammy?

Maybe if there was some actual proof of this... but there is not. All we get is basically we cant tell you because of "national security".

Well I guess it boils down to if you trust BadBear enough to believe that he has personally verified they are one and the same.

furthermore there are a lot of people on this forum that are engaged in trust farming using alts and they almost never get negative feedback.

I agree, however I think it is much more difficult to prove trust farming then it is for an admin (who has access to things like IP addresses, payment TXIDs that pay for evil points, time users logged in, what threads are being looked at (? - I think this is a feature of SMF), ect)

Clearly this all revolves around the initial accusation that he was using a laser engraver, and no actual solid evidence of this has been presented, just speculation after speculation endlessly. Convenient how this is set up so the burden of proof is set upon WoodCollector and not Nubbins to provide sufficient evidence of his accusation.

I think this is speculation. I also think he has gotten much more lazy with his alts and they are acting much more like alts/socks IMO (almost to the point where he is now trolling).

[TECSHARE]

Clearly this all revolves around the initial accusation that he was using a laser engraver, and no actual solid evidence of this has been presented, just speculation after speculation endlessly. Convenient how this is set up so the burden of proof is set upon WoodCollector and not Nubbins to provide sufficient evidence of his accusation.

I think this is speculation. I also think he has gotten much more lazy with his alts and they are acting much more like alts/socks IMO (almost to the point where he is now trolling).

This is not at all speculation. Who would have even started to try to play "scambuster" mall cop sifting around looking for any reason to speculate on endless topics regarding WoodCollector if it weren't for Nubbins's original accusation? Again, it is a simple task to accuse anyone of using alts to discredit them, and conveniently there is no way to prove this either way. THAT is what speculation is. Just a bunch of wannabe detectives overly confident in their "scambusting" skills.


WHAT IS THE PROOF? I SEE NO PROOF ONLY TONS OF SPECULATION!

[Quickseller]

Clearly this all revolves around the initial accusation that he was using a laser engraver, and no actual solid evidence of this has been presented, just speculation after speculation endlessly. Convenient how this is set up so the burden of proof is set upon WoodCollector and not Nubbins to provide sufficient evidence of his accusation.

I think this is speculation. I also think he has gotten much more lazy with his alts and they are acting much more like alts/socks IMO (almost to the point where he is now trolling).

This is not at all speculation. Who would have even started to try to play "scambuster" mall cop sifting around looking for any reason to speculate on endless topics regarding WoodCollector if it weren't for Nubbins's original accusation? Again, it is a simple task to accuse anyone of using alts to discredit them, and conveniently there is no way to prove this either way. THAT is what speculation is. Just a bunch of wannabe detectives overly confident in their "scambusting" skills.


WHAT IS THE PROOF? I SEE NO PROOF ONLY TONS OF SPECULATION!

I agree that the majority (maybe even all) of the evidence against WC is speculation, with the exception of him using alts to further his cause. I do trust BadBear enough to take his word for it that he personally saw proof that the alts of WC are in fact alts of WC. If you didn't trust BadBear then maybe you could ask theymos to look into it and see if he comes to the same conclusion.

[TECSHARE]

You have demonstrated ... willingness to abuse trust for personal gain

What if they also slander you without evidence to back up their claims?

EDIT: This is just as serious an accusation as anything else being discussed here. I take my reputation seriously, and request you provide proof of me "demonstrating" willingness to abuse the forum for my personal gain. Without such proof, I'd like to ask the slanderous comment be removed.

The proof is the fact that you are willing to abuse the trust system to silence people who are proving your accusations incorrect. This serves you by you getting to preserve your reputation at the expense of others by not having to admit you were wrong after starting a mob riot against him and other users. This is clearly self serving.

Clearly this all revolves around the initial accusation that he was using a laser engraver, and no actual solid evidence of this has been presented, just speculation after speculation endlessly. Convenient how this is set up so the burden of proof is set upon WoodCollector and not Nubbins to provide sufficient evidence of his accusation.

I think this is speculation. I also think he has gotten much more lazy with his alts and they are acting much more like alts/socks IMO (almost to the point where he is now trolling).

This is not at all speculation. Who would have even started to try to play "scambuster" mall cop sifting around looking for any reason to speculate on endless topics regarding WoodCollector if it weren't for Nubbins's original accusation? Again, it is a simple task to accuse anyone of using alts to discredit them, and conveniently there is no way to prove this either way. THAT is what speculation is. Just a bunch of wannabe detectives overly confident in their "scambusting" skills.


WHAT IS THE PROOF? I SEE NO PROOF ONLY TONS OF SPECULATION!

I agree that the majority (maybe even all) of the evidence against WC is speculation, with the exception of him using alts to further his cause. I do trust BadBear enough to take his word for it that he personally saw proof that the alts of WC are in fact alts of WC. If you didn't trust BadBear then maybe you could ask theymos to look into it and see if he comes to the same conclusion.

BadBear is unwilling to provide this "proof" and I guarantee you Theymos doesn't care. That leaves the accusations standing only as that, accusations with no evidence.

[Quickseller]

Clearly this all revolves around the initial accusation that he was using a laser engraver, and no actual solid evidence of this has been presented, just speculation after speculation endlessly. Convenient how this is set up so the burden of proof is set upon WoodCollector and not Nubbins to provide sufficient evidence of his accusation.

I think this is speculation. I also think he has gotten much more lazy with his alts and they are acting much more like alts/socks IMO (almost to the point where he is now trolling).

This is not at all speculation. Who would have even started to try to play "scambuster" mall cop sifting around looking for any reason to speculate on endless topics regarding WoodCollector if it weren't for Nubbins's original accusation? Again, it is a simple task to accuse anyone of using alts to discredit them, and conveniently there is no way to prove this either way. THAT is what speculation is. Just a bunch of wannabe detectives overly confident in their "scambusting" skills.


WHAT IS THE PROOF? I SEE NO PROOF ONLY TONS OF SPECULATION!

I agree that the majority (maybe even all) of the evidence against WC is speculation, with the exception of him using alts to further his cause. I do trust BadBear enough to take his word for it that he personally saw proof that the alts of WC are in fact alts of WC. If you didn't trust BadBear then maybe you could ask theymos to look into it and see if he comes to the same conclusion.

BadBear is unwilling to provide this "proof" and I guarantee you Theymos doesn't care. That leaves the accusations standing only as that, accusations with no evidence.

If there was a big enough of a dispute about the alts then he may intervene to give his opinion on them being alts. BadBear might be wiling to share the evidence with other Admins who he trusts who can weigh in

[nubbins]

The proof is the fact that you are willing to abuse the trust system to silence people who are proving your accusations incorrect.

I see no proof... 

[danielpbarron]

Obligatory reading.

II. The WoT works by reducing the unknowns problem. It allows the user - any user - to confidently identify the sources of information, both in the negative and in the positive. That is to say, if sources of information exist, the user may by the WoT find them, and safely assume that should no sources of information be thus found, no sources of information in fact exist. It further allows the user to judge the quality, reliability and precision of said sources, and this independent both of the direct source and of the counterparty he's examining.

[ABitNut]

Clearly this all revolves around the initial accusation that he was using a laser engraver, and no actual solid evidence of this has been presented, just speculation after speculation endlessly. Convenient how this is set up so the burden of proof is set upon WoodCollector and not Nubbins to provide sufficient evidence of his accusation.

I think this is speculation. I also think he has gotten much more lazy with his alts and they are acting much more like alts/socks IMO (almost to the point where he is now trolling).

This is not at all speculation. Who would have even started to try to play "scambuster" mall cop sifting around looking for any reason to speculate on endless topics regarding WoodCollector if it weren't for Nubbins's original accusation? Again, it is a simple task to accuse anyone of using alts to discredit them, and conveniently there is no way to prove this either way. THAT is what speculation is. Just a bunch of wannabe detectives overly confident in their "scambusting" skills.


WHAT IS THE PROOF? I SEE NO PROOF ONLY TONS OF SPECULATION!

I'm not a court/judge. But I do judge (I'm not a monk either). I have watched the whole Woodcollector episode unfold. I have seen the pictures and read what people pointed out. I have seen the video. I have drawn my own conclusion.

You're fighting based on your principals (I assume). I know you have a problem with the trust system (that's not hard, the system is imperfect and it shows). But do you really believe that Woodcollector is an honest and skilled craftsman? I'm asking you straight, do you think that Woodcollector did not use a laser to etch their pieces?

[TECSHARE]

The proof is the fact that you are willing to abuse the trust system to silence people who are proving your accusations incorrect.

I see no proof... 

Of course not, but that doesn't matter because others have already stepped in and said very clearly you are abusing the trust system. Your ignorance is not a defense.

I'm not a court/judge. But I do judge (I'm not a monk either). I have watched the whole Woodcollector episode unfold. I have seen the pictures and read what people pointed out. I have seen the video. I have drawn my own conclusion.

You're fighting based on your principals (I assume). I know you have a problem with the trust system (that's not hard, the system is imperfect and it shows). But do you really believe that Woodcollector is an honest and skilled craftsman? I'm asking you straight, do you think that Woodcollector did not use a laser to etch their pieces?

I do believe WoodCollector is an honest and skilled craftsman, and I make this conclusion as a craftsman myself. I do not think WoodCollector used lazers or a CNC mill or any other automated system to produce his work. I find it asinine that people are willing to ignore a much simpler explanation for it but rather defaulting to endless theories and constantly shifting speculation and regarding it as proof. Why again is the burden of proof not upon Nubbins? Making accusations is not hard... anyone can do it without any fraudulent activity needing being involved at all by the accused party.

IMO most of these people here are just so jealous of the level of skill he has, and the amazing income he makes with his skills, they can't stand it, and can't possibly believe that this could be true. 90% of the people here have never even whittled a stick let alone done any serious craftwork. This forum is filled with techies and economists, not craftsman or artists. None of you have ANY expertise on this subject and this ignorance shows.

[smoothie]

The proof is the fact that you are willing to abuse the trust system to silence people who are proving your accusations incorrect.

I see no proof...  

Of course not, but that doesn't matter because others have already stepped in and said very clearly you are abusing the trust system. Your ignorance is not a defense.

I'm not a court/judge. But I do judge (I'm not a monk either). I have watched the whole Woodcollector episode unfold. I have seen the pictures and read what people pointed out. I have seen the video. I have drawn my own conclusion.

You're fighting based on your principals (I assume). I know you have a problem with the trust system (that's not hard, the system is imperfect and it shows). But do you really believe that Woodcollector is an honest and skilled craftsman? I'm asking you straight, do you think that Woodcollector did not use a laser to etch their pieces?

I do believe WoodCollector is an honest and skilled craftsman, and I make this conclusion as a craftsman myself. I do not think WoodCollector used lazers or a CNC mill or any other automated system to produce his work. I find it asinine that people are willing to ignore a much simpler explanation for it but rather defaulting to endless theories and constantly shifting speculation and regarding it as proof. Why again is the burden of proof not upon Nubbins? Making accusations is not hard... anyone can do it without any fraudulent activity needing being involved at all by the accused party.

IMO most of these people here are just so jealous of the level of skill he has, and the amazing income he makes with his skills, they can't stand it, and can't possibly believe that this could be true. 90% of the people here have never even whittled a stick let alone done any serious craftwork. This forum is filled with techies and economists, not craftsman or artists. None of you have ANY expertise on this subject and this ignorance shows.

Yes I am so jealous of his skill level he has in taking clip art off the internet and "hand carving" it into a piece of wood.

Even though most of the tools he uses are not really hand carving tools...more like hand crafted/milled.

  Yup I am so jealous.

Oh and BTW WC has not shown/proven how he got the stencil imprint into the wood before his video even started. (looks lasered to me).

[nubbins]

Wait, this forum is filled with economists? 

[ABitNut]

The proof is the fact that you are willing to abuse the trust system to silence people who are proving your accusations incorrect.

I see no proof... 

Of course not, but that doesn't matter because others have already stepped in and said very clearly you are abusing the trust system. Your ignorance is not a defense.

I'm not a court/judge. But I do judge (I'm not a monk either). I have watched the whole Woodcollector episode unfold. I have seen the pictures and read what people pointed out. I have seen the video. I have drawn my own conclusion.

You're fighting based on your principals (I assume). I know you have a problem with the trust system (that's not hard, the system is imperfect and it shows). But do you really believe that Woodcollector is an honest and skilled craftsman? I'm asking you straight, do you think that Woodcollector did not use a laser to etch their pieces?

I do believe WoodCollector is an honest and skilled craftsman, and I make this conclusion as a craftsman myself. I do not think WoodCollector used lazers or a CNC mill or any other automated system to produce his work. I find it asinine that people are willing to ignore a much simpler explanation for it but rather defaulting to endless theories and constantly shifting speculation and regarding it as proof. Why again is the burden of proof not upon Nubbins? Making accusations is not hard... anyone can do it without any fraudulent activity needing being involved at all by the accused party.

IMO most of these people here are just so jealous of the level of skill he has, and the amazing income he makes with his skills, they can't stand it, and can't possibly believe that this could be true. 90% of the people here have never even whittled a stick let alone done any serious craftwork. This forum is filled with techies and economists, not craftsman or artists. None of you have ANY expertise on this subject and this ignorance shows.

Hey now, I've been at the wrong end of a pointy stick enough times to tell if it's hand carved or not! /joke

Since you gave your opinion it seems fair that I give mine too.

1) The pictures that were shown on the forums show poor cuts
2) The patterns on his works are very detailed and (near) perfect
3) They admitted to having used an image they had no rights to
4) The video they posted does not demonstrate the same detail that is in their other works
5) There are some apparent shills to back them up

I'm pretty sure that if the case went to court they would not be convicted based on only this. They would probably get a warning. Also they did deliver their works to the satisfaction of their customers.

But in my opinion they're misleading their patrons with their statements. Because of 1) if think they're overstating the quality of their work. Because of the mismatch between 1) and 2) (one shows little attention for detail and the other an high attention for detail) I think there's something fishy. Number 3) is a minor one, but funnily enough the point that would most likely lead to punishment because that's the way the justice system rolls. The final number 4) is disappointing, since they came out to proof something but ended up actually proving nothing. Finally I did not see conclusive proof of 5) and though it seems pretty obvious I'm not really considering it - I feel the other points carry enough weight for me.

All that tells me the works they're selling here are not top notch. Nothing that would make me get my pitchfork out and fire up the good ole torch though. Hey, they may still be greatly skilled and just doing bitcointalk on the side with low effort jobs.

[nubbins]

TECSHARE, have you ever met WoodCollector in real life?

[TECSHARE]

Hey now, I've been at the wrong end of a pointy stick enough times to tell if it's hand carved or not! /joke

Since you gave your opinion it seems fair that I give mine too.

1) The pictures that were shown on the forums show poor cuts
2) The patterns on his works are very detailed and (near) perfect
3) They admitted to having used an image they had no rights to
4) The video they posted does not demonstrate the same detail that is in their other works
5) There are some apparent shills to back them up

I'm pretty sure that if the case went to court they would not be convicted based on only this. They would probably get a warning. Also they did deliver their works to the satisfaction of their customers.

But in my opinion they're misleading their patrons with their statements. Because of 1) if think they're overstating the quality of their work. Because of the mismatch between 1) and 2) (one shows little attention for detail and the other an high attention for detail) I think there's something fishy. Number 3) is a minor one, but funnily enough the point that would most likely lead to punishment because that's the way the justice system rolls. The final number 4) is disappointing, since they came out to proof something but ended up actually proving nothing. Finally I did not see conclusive proof of 5) and though it seems pretty obvious I'm not really considering it - I feel the other points carry enough weight for me.

All that tells me the works they're selling here are not top notch. Nothing that would make me get my pitchfork out and fire up the good ole torch though. Hey, they may still be greatly skilled and just doing bitcointalk on the side with low effort jobs.

1) It is a video in the middle of the process. Yes it would have been best if he posted video from the beginning and end instead of the middle. This is him not doing a very good job with videography, not proof he is a scammer. You seriously think he just staged that video to try to fake hand carving skill? That seems like a pretty elaborate con to me, beyond realism.

2) And? So he is supposed to reproduce a work that he gets paid thousands of dollars to do usually within 24 hours and manage to also in that time upload gigabytes of data of the video? Are you even examining the logistics of these irrational demands being made?

3) No, he didn't admit to using an image he had rights to. He used a LICENSED image, and he never tried to hide that fact. Additionally he MODIFIED the image, meaning that according to the law it is AN ORIGINAL IMAGE. This is what is legally defined as a "derivative work", meaning by law HE MADE THE IMAGE and has rights to it. I am a professional graphic designer and I am well aware of copyright laws, you have zero room to argue this point.

4) This is just you repeating the same points over an over as in 1 and 2. See my answers for 1 and 2.

5) Again this is 100% speculation. Just because people choose to back him up DOES NOT  make them shills. There is absolutely no proof of this, just more theories stacked on top of each other in a lame attempt to give the original baseless accusations weight.


You are correct in stating this would not be enough in a court of law. You know why? BECAUSE THERE IS NO PROOF!!!

[nubbins]

You seriously think he just staged that video to try to fake hand carving skill? That seems like a pretty elaborate con to me, beyond realism.

beyond realism

 

Can we please stay on topic in this thread?

[TECSHARE]

You seriously think he just staged that video to try to fake hand carving skill? That seems like a pretty elaborate con to me, beyond realism.

beyond realism

 

Can we please stay on topic in this thread?

Maybe you should talk to your mob if you don't like the off topic discussion, but you are right, this thread is about your trust system abuse.  I have messaged Canaryinthemine and asked him to remove you and referenced this thread. Waiting for his comment.

[ABitNut]

Hey now, I've been at the wrong end of a pointy stick enough times to tell if it's hand carved or not! /joke

Since you gave your opinion it seems fair that I give mine too.

1) The pictures that were shown on the forums show poor cuts
2) The patterns on his works are very detailed and (near) perfect
3) They admitted to having used an image they had no rights to
4) The video they posted does not demonstrate the same detail that is in their other works
5) There are some apparent shills to back them up

I'm pretty sure that if the case went to court they would not be convicted based on only this. They would probably get a warning. Also they did deliver their works to the satisfaction of their customers.

But in my opinion they're misleading their patrons with their statements. Because of 1) if think they're overstating the quality of their work. Because of the mismatch between 1) and 2) (one shows little attention for detail and the other an high attention for detail) I think there's something fishy. Number 3) is a minor one, but funnily enough the point that would most likely lead to punishment because that's the way the justice system rolls. The final number 4) is disappointing, since they came out to proof something but ended up actually proving nothing. Finally I did not see conclusive proof of 5) and though it seems pretty obvious I'm not really considering it - I feel the other points carry enough weight for me.

All that tells me the works they're selling here are not top notch. Nothing that would make me get my pitchfork out and fire up the good ole torch though. Hey, they may still be greatly skilled and just doing bitcointalk on the side with low effort jobs.

1) It is a video in the middle of the process. Yes it would have been best if he posted video from the beginning and end instead of the middle. This is him not doing a very good job with videography, not proof he is a scammer. You seriously think he just staged that video to try to fake hand carving skill? That seems like a pretty elaborate con to me, beyond realism.

This does not address the poor cuts on his pieces as is seen on the many pictures of them. Also it's not beyond realism at all, considering the profits they're making they are likely to invest a bit if they feel it can secure their business for longer.

2) And? So he is supposed to reproduce a work that he gets paid thousands of dollars to do usually within 24 hours and manage to also in that time upload gigabytes of data of the video? Are you even examining the logistics of these irrational demands being made?

Again, my point is about the pieces he sold, not about the video. See point 4 for comments about the video.

3) No, he didn't admit to using an image he had rights to. He used a LICENSED image, and he never tried to hide that fact. Additionally he MODIFIED the image, meaning that according to the law it is AN ORIGINAL IMAGE. This is what is legally defined as a "derivative work", meaning by law HE MADE THE IMAGE and has rights to it. I am a professional graphic designer and I am well aware of copyright laws, you have zero room to argue this point.

I'll just quote them:

In the case of Deliverymans coin the exact lion on the coin is not one i provided, I do not have the license for that and should not have carve it on the coin.

4) This is just you repeating the same points over an over as in 1 and 2. See my answers for 1 and 2.

This is regarding the video they provided. Finally. With less effort they could have made a short video hand carving just a small detail that he hand carved before in one of the coins he sold before. A small letter with serif was suggested. That wouldn't have taken this long. Why go through so much extra effort with less result?

5) Again this is 100% speculation. Just because people choose to back him up DOES NOT  make them shills. There is absolutely no proof of this, just more theories stacked on top of each other in a lame attempt to give the original baseless accusations weight.

Agreed. I actually discounted this point in my original post. I just added it cause others keep bringing it up, but it is weak and not needed.

You are correct in stating this would not be enough in a court of law. You know why? BECAUSE THERE IS NO PROOF!!!

There is no conclusive and compelling evidence. There's enough shady behavior to be wary of though.

Edit and PS. Woops, I am horrible off topic too...

[TECSHARE]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29l1Bg4fcn8

[wunkbone]

This thread has gotten significantly off topic. It is not about WC or any of his potential sockpuppets. It is about Nubbins and his abuse of the trust system (it may be ignorance however ignorance is not a valid defense to breaking the law).

Nubbins has over the past ~week used negative trust to intimidate people to agree with him. He did remove negative trust against some people who stood up for themselves however others were likely afraid to disagree with them out of fear of the potential negative trust they may get.

To allow this to happen, or to not speak up about this is going to set a horrible precedent. The fact that Nubbins was right does not matter. The fact is that he used his power as being on default trust list in order to get people to agree with him.

It has been argued that if Woodcollector was put out of business then his own business would benefit. This creates a clear financial incentive for him to want people to agree with him.

[ABitNut]

Yes, nubbins has been a bit eager with his trust. They shouldn't have all the negatives he did.

It is up to the people that have them in their trust list to decide if they still trust Nubbins' judgement. Personally, I'd rather see that Nubbins learns about how to use his trust properly than having him removed.

If anyone has a serious problem with Nubbins' judgement then they should exclude Nubbins in their own trust list. There's no need to wait for other members to take action.

Also I feel a topic like this would have more chance of success if it were posited different. The confrontational title (it's actually a command?) probably did not help the OP's case.