Bitcoin London Conference 2012

[lonelyminer (Peter Šurda)]

Hello,

I have been working on economic research of Bitcoin for over a year and would like to present my findings at the London conference http://bitcoin2012.com/. My paper will probably be published before that, but this way I can present some aspects of it in what will hopefully be a less boring form, and answer questions.

As it is a complex topic and I won't be able to talk about everything, I am giving you an opportunity to pick the topic you consider interesting. The resulting ranking will influence my talk. I don't know yet how many topics I can discuss but I don't think there will be time for more than two, so everyone can make two votes. You have 14 days to vote. You do not need to attend the conference to vote, it will most likely be recorded anyway so you can check it out online afterwards.

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[hazek]

Destroy the myth of a deflationary price spiral.

[apetersson]

Destroy the myth of a deflationary price spiral.

+1

the topics lonelyminer posted seem all very non-controversial to be honest.

two ideas:

-how taxes would work in a bitcoin dominated world
-why is bitcoin a fiat/not a fiat currency

[meanig]

Present some case studies on capital controls through history and speak about how Bitcoin could circumvent them.

I'd be interested to hear about how the Austro-Hungarian currency union came to an end and over what kind of time frame it happened. Did they get a chance to implement capital controls? Who made money, who lost money etc.

It would be a very relevant talk given the precarious situation of the Eurozone.

[lonelyminer (Peter Šurda)]

Destroy the myth of a deflationary price spiral.

This is under the Macroeconomic Analysis.

[lonelyminer (Peter Šurda)]

-how taxes would work in a bitcoin dominated world

Depends on what you mean:
- what the state should do to continue taxing people
- if there is a problem with taxes due to afalling price level
- how you should treat Bitcoin for tax purposes

?

-why is bitcoin a fiat/not a fiat currency

This is under Definition of money and how Bitcoin fits in.

[lonelyminer (Peter Šurda)]

Present some case studies on capital controls through history and speak about how Bitcoin could circumvent them.

This is to a certain extent under Bitcoin competing with other currencies and payment systems, but I have no case studies.

[World]

Securing online services
Merchant services
Mobile payments World
Electronic commerce
Electronic digital cash & virtual World taxation
New Products and services 2013
Gaming and gambling industry

[lonelyminer (Peter Šurda)]

Securing online services
Merchant services
Mobile payments World
Electronic commerce
Electronic digital cash & virtual World taxation
New Products and services 2013
Gaming and gambling industry

This is more like analysis of market segments rather than economics.

[RodeoX]

Woah! I may be visiting a mate in London about the time of this conference. If so, I'm definitely going.

[nevafuse]

-how taxes would work in a bitcoin dominated world

Depends on what you mean:
- what the state should do to continue taxing people

+1

Will taxing people still be possible?
Will all other currencies suffer a hyperinflation death?

[apetersson]

-how taxes would work in a bitcoin dominated world

Depends on what you mean:
- what the state should do to continue taxing people
- if there is a problem with taxes due to afalling price level
- how you should treat Bitcoin for tax purposes

primarily because its a little more controversial and you will get critical questions afaik some bitcoiners oppose taxes heavily.

my questions are: [imagine me now putting my european-socialist hat on]
could bitcoin due to its transparency improve tax collection fairness in an all-bitcoin world?
could entity de-anonymisation be used to enfore a progressive wealth tax?

what kind of transactions will be taxable
could there be more automation maybe? something like a government-run API "sendmany" or TX fee to settle VAT instantly?
how many tax collectors could we fire once the government gets more efficient?

[wareen]

could bitcoin due to its transparency improve tax collection fairness in an all-bitcoin world?
could entity de-anonymisation be used to enfore a progressive wealth tax?

what kind of transactions will be taxable
could there be more automation maybe? something like a government-run API "sendmany" or TX fee to settle VAT instantly?
how many tax collectors could we fire once the government gets more efficient?

These questions appear a bit too speculative for my taste - not that I wouldn't like to discuss such things but they more or less all have the premise that Bitcoin is already legal tender. Since this premise is extremely unlikely in the near to medium term future I think we cannot say much about how a state and its tax-system could possibly look like then (there's simply too many uncertainties involved concerning how exactly we got there).

What the economic discussion around Bitcoin needs IMHO is to address some immediate practical issues:
- status of the regulatory process concerning Bitcoin
- tax issues, possible loophole concerning VAT
- the case for/against Bitcoin as digital service vs. Bitcoin as currency
- best practices of dealing with Bitcoin in the books
- legal status of Bitcoin exchanges

Sure, such a talk would not raise that many controversies, but it would be extremely useful for any company wanting to deal with Bitcoin. But of course some more high-level economic views would also be very interesting.

[FreeMoney]

Destroy the myth of a deflationary price spiral.

Yes please do. I just ran in to an 'economist' on a bus while wearing a bitcoin shirt and had to listen to him explain that Bitcoin would fail because bitcoins would be too valuable (which would make them worthless, doh).

[lonelyminer (Peter Šurda)]

primarily because its a little more controversial and you will get critical questions afaik some bitcoiners oppose taxes heavily.

No worries, I oppose taxes too. But I get your point.

my questions are: [imagine me now putting my european-socialist hat on]
could bitcoin due to its transparency improve tax collection fairness in an all-bitcoin world?
could entity de-anonymisation be used to enfore a progressive wealth tax?
what kind of transactions will be taxable
could there be more automation maybe? something like a government-run API "sendmany" or TX fee to settle VAT instantly?
how many tax collectors could we fire once the government gets more efficient?

Ok, this is handled partially by macro and partially by competition topics, but probably wouldn't go onto that much detail in the talk.

[minorman]

Destroy the myth of a deflationary price spiral.

Yes please do. I just ran in to an 'economist' on a bus while wearing a bitcoin shirt and had to listen to him explain that Bitcoin would fail because bitcoins would be too valuable (which would make them worthless, doh).

Yup -  I've even had an argument (okay - a one-way argument) with Krugman on this:
http://seekingalpha.com/instablog/530678-minorman/214527-paul-krugman-s-take-on-bitcoin

[blablahblah]

-how taxes would work in a bitcoin dominated world

Depends on what you mean:
- what the state should do to continue taxing people

+1

Will taxing people still be possible?...

+1
A lot US-biased people on these forums seem to complain about US-specific problems, and often advocate some kind of "anarchic" and presumably tax-free society in response to their country's problems. That's all very nice, but there don't seem to be any historic examples demonstrating how a Libertarian Utopia might actually work. And even if there used to be some anarchic societies in the past, clearly they all got destroyed for some or other reason. (Maybe they couldn't collect enough funds for a functional defence force, and a stronger, more evil power overpowered them?)

So, what I want to know is how can ordinary societies with ordinary governments incorporate Bitcoin into their taxation systems, while avoiding social upheaval? And why would they want to?

[sunnankar]

That's all very nice, but there don't seem to be any historic examples demonstrating how a Libertarian Utopia might actually work.

Medieval Iceland which had a golden age with the absence of government and use of private law. Their downfall was restricting service providers of equity and justice not the granting a violent monopoly. As with any monopoly, the service provider will keep raising the price and giving a lower quality product until a competitor busts the monopoly. Just because the State has a monopoly of violence does not exempt it from economic law.

The use of private law, through mechanisms like judge.me, can help route around the extremely expensive and low quality equity and justice currently provided by major States.

[unclescrooge]

-how taxes would work in a bitcoin dominated world

Depends on what you mean:
- what the state should do to continue taxing people

+1

Will taxing people still be possible?...

+1
A lot US-biased people on these forums seem to complain about US-specific problems, and often advocate some kind of "anarchic" and presumably tax-free society in response to their country's problems. That's all very nice, but there don't seem to be any historic examples demonstrating how a Libertarian Utopia might actually work. And even if there used to be some anarchic societies in the past, clearly they all got destroyed for some or other reason. (Maybe they couldn't collect enough funds for a functional defence force, and a stronger, more evil power overpowered them?)

So, what I want to know is how can ordinary societies with ordinary governments incorporate Bitcoin into their taxation systems, while avoiding social upheaval? And why would they want to?

If you like your "ordinary society" with "ordinary government", why bitcoins? Why not stay with these great shit currencies, these great taxes,...? Oh yes, you can't have one without the other. Governments will never adopt a bitcoin-like currency because they want to control the money, and they want to control the money to extract wealth from productive people.

And you want a libertarian country that worked well: the US. They became so wealth because it once was a libertarian country. That was looooonnng ago though.


And no, I'm not from US, I'm from France, a great "ordinary society" that works so well...; at enforcing poverty

[unclescrooge]

But anyway it's a great idea to answer these questions about taxes and how bitcoins will be great to raise taxes (which he won't be but hey...). We need to make bitcoin look innocuous to States and their volontary slaves