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Author Topic: I'm a sceptic, convince me!  (Read 3561 times)
pawel7777
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February 02, 2015, 11:56:42 AM
 #41


Gold does not have to be backed by a commodity, because it is a commodity.

I don't agree that it's useless.

I don't agree that perception is reality. Reality is what is is. regardless of what people believe it is.


So what will happen to gold price when suddenly everyone stop perceiving it as valuable? What if no one buys it as an investment or store of value and the price is solely dictated only by its practical usage (such as electronic and aerospace components)? Will it remain 10% of its current value?

The fact is that most of the gold's price is created by the general agreement that it is precious and valuable, so the 90% (out of the ass estimate) is backed only by perception.

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Tarantino
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February 02, 2015, 12:27:53 PM
 #42

I have to admit that I'm sceptical about Bitcoin. I'll give you my reasons, then please convince me!

Bitcoin is not backed by anything. It would probably not exist in a free market.


Fiat isn't backed by anything either. Bitcoin is an revolutionary economic experiument in my opinion.

Money in a free market has always been some kind of commodity. Something that has value beyond its use as a currency. The problem with Bitcoin is that it has no value beyond its use as a currency. Why should it then be regarded as money? Money came into being as a medium of exchange, so that if you got stuck with it it was useful in some way. It wasn't just a piece of paper. It was something that was useful in and of itself. Like gold. Like silver. Bitcoin has none of that. It's just a string of 0s and 1s. Where does it get its value from? I don't think in a free market it would be valued.

Something like Bitcoin could be used as a currency if it was backed by some commodity to do anonymous/quick transactions, but there would be a standard, ultimately, for exchange. It would always be exchangeable into e.g. gold. So that the banks who issued the Bitcoins were contractually obligated to redeem them into gold. Then Bitcoin would serve as a currency, but the money would be the gold.

It's already being used as a currency so you're wrong, though it's not ideal currently with price fluctuations but this could change in the future.
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February 02, 2015, 01:23:16 PM
 #43

You should risk some small affordable amount and hodl in a secure offline wallet. In 10 years you will either badly regret for not doing it or you will have lost some small affordable amount of money. Its a good time to buy in.

Bitcoin is not a bubble, it's the pin!
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pawel7777
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February 02, 2015, 01:41:39 PM
 #44

You should risk some small affordable amount and hodl in a secure offline wallet. In 10 years you will either badly regret for not doing it or you will have lost some small affordable amount of money. Its a good time to buy in.

This.
If you invest affordable amount the potential loss is capped at 100%, while potential profits are un-capped.

Although, for the first-time buyers, I'd recommend to buy some small amount first to 'play' with (send/receive, import/export wallet etc) to get the basic knowledge of how it works, rather than to buy large amount straight away.

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Dick Valentine
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February 02, 2015, 02:06:48 PM
 #45

You should risk some small affordable amount and hodl in a secure offline wallet. In 10 years you will either badly regret for not doing it or you will have lost some small affordable amount of money. Its a good time to buy in.

This is actually pretty good advice. If you're skeptical buy a coin or two and hold it as an investment and see where it goes. If bitcoin goes tits up you've lost $200 or so. If it goes the other way you've made a nice little investment. You don't even need to purchase any coins either as there are plenty of ways to earn them from this forum.
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February 02, 2015, 02:08:04 PM
 #46

No need to convince you... this train is rolling with or without skeptics... fortunately enough folks have done the research to see the opportunities... slow adapters will simply kick their own ass.

The fact that people believe in it doesn't make it true. Most Bitcoin buyers have little knowledge of economics.

takes a lot of faith and sentiment to make the economy and markets run the way they do; beliefs drive our economies as much as anything else. perceptions of what is good / bad, high / low, what is valuable etc etc.
the laws of economics are largely dependent on humans propping them up, unlike natural laws from which facts come from, so dont doubt the power of belief!
not exactly the point you were making I know but couldnt resist mentioning it (for a general note) anyway :p

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February 02, 2015, 02:25:41 PM
 #47

the general public sentiment is of bitcoin being a ponzi pump dump scam and simultaneously capable of supporting terrorism hardcore drug trafficking and pedophilia ... is the reality of the people existing outside of the trollboxes and btcforum ... sorry to break the bad news to you ...

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February 02, 2015, 02:28:45 PM
 #48

It has the backing of the community, people like you, me who believes in the future of bitcoin and are willing to pay a certain price to acquire a bitcoin unit. For me, that is good enough.

pawel7777
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February 02, 2015, 02:32:59 PM
 #49

the general public sentiment is of bitcoin being a ponzi pump dump scam and simultaneously capable of supporting terrorism hardcore drug trafficking and pedophilia ... is the reality of the people existing outside of the trollboxes and btcforum ... sorry to break the bad news to you ...

Why is that bad news? If Bitcoin got that far with such shitty general public's perception, then what will happen when people slowly start realising that it's actually not that scary.

It would be more disturbing to discover that 99% of population have a positive sentiment, that would mean it will be very hard to grow/expand from where we are right now.

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Beliathon
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February 02, 2015, 02:39:12 PM
Last edit: February 02, 2015, 03:19:52 PM by Beliathon
 #50

What interest do I have in convincing you?

The reality is that the longer it takes for the rest of humanity to recognize the true value of this asset, the more I personally benefit.

By all means, continue your skepticism indefinitely, I'm enjoying access to these $200 coins. I can only earn fiat to melt so quickly, you know.

Remember Aaron Swartz, a 26 year old computer scientist who died defending the free flow of information.
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February 02, 2015, 02:41:18 PM
 #51

Look at the marketcaps of other decentralizing services such as Uber and compare it to Bitcoin, then see the potential for growth.
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February 02, 2015, 02:41:31 PM
 #52

yeaaaahhh bullshit ... and i do btw hold bitcoin simply for the sake of an apocalyptic scenario of global economic collapse of all governmental currencies while the internet *somehow* still exists ... i also hold raw gold raw silver guns and loose cut diamonds ... take my evaluation with as much salt as suits you ...

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February 02, 2015, 03:23:54 PM
 #53

I have to admit that I'm sceptical about Bitcoin. I'll give you my reasons, then please convince me!

I'm optimistic about Bitcoin, but not fanatically so.  I'll try to give you some additional considerations.

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Bitcoin is not backed by anything. It would probably not exist in a free market. Money in a free market has always been some kind of commodity. Something that has value beyond its use as a currency. The problem with Bitcoin is that it has no value beyond its use as a currency. Why should it then be regarded as money? Money came into being as a medium of exchange, so that if you got stuck with it it was useful in some way. It wasn't just a piece of paper. It was something that was useful in and of itself. Like gold. Like silver. Bitcoin has none of that. It's just a string of 0s and 1s. Where does it get its value from? I don't think in a free market it would be valued.

Whether a currency is "backed" by anything is of little importance, at least inasmuch as all money is backed by a mere belief in its value. In other words, money -- no matter what form -- ultimately has value because people believe it has value.  This holds true whether we're talking about fiat, gold, oil, whatever, etc.

Possibly the most important characteristic of money is that people can agree that it holds a common value.  In a bartering economy, this does not hold true.  For example, a gold coin considered outside the context of price consensus (i.e. outside gold's purported value depicted in the gold markets) may be much more valuable to one person than another, such as when one person needs a good electrical conductor and the other person doesn't, etc.

To this extent, a digital currency is arguably superior to gold.  You can argue that it is precisely because 1's and 0's are arbitrary and intangible that consensus of value can be achieved.  For example, sugar might be considered an "intrinsically valuable currency" since it has nutritional value outside of social consensus.  But, do you think that sugar is more valuable to a normal person or to a diabetic?  The arbitrariness of pure math can avoid this issue.

Also consider that the Blockchain is valuable in a way that Bitcoin as a currency is not.  Bitcoins derive their value in part by their integration with their own Blockchain.  Bitcoins would lose their value consensus if, say, only the Litecoin Blockchain existed.  So, as it turns out you can make an argument that bitcoins have some intrinsic value, but in the sense that useful bitcoins are inherently tied to the Blockchain (which is why testnet bitcoins on the testnet blockchain are worth jack).  The most profitable BTC companies to date are typically those that facilitate transactions on the Blockchain (and thereby increase its value and utility) such as payment processors, exchanges, and casinos.  The more the Blockchain is used and develops in the complexity of its inter-connectivity, the more socially valuable it becomes.

Quote
Something like Bitcoin could be used as a currency if it was backed by some commodity to do anonymous/quick transactions, but there would be a standard, ultimately, for exchange. It would always be exchangeable into e.g. gold. So that the banks who issued the Bitcoins were contractually obligated to redeem them into gold. Then Bitcoin would serve as a currency, but the money would be the gold.

The value of something is always related to something else.   Let's imagine, per your example, that BTC is backed by gold.  So, you can take 1 BTC and sell it anywhere in the world at market value and receive predictable sum of gold.  Okay, great.

Now you have gold.  Now suppose that after some time passes you want to sell your gold.  How valuable is that gold?  How did it get its value?

The point is that there are two (2) things that can always be stated about value: 1) Value is always relative and is thus subject to change, and 2) Intrinsic value does not necessarily equate to consensus value.  Because consensus value is required for a good form of money, and because value is always subject to change, the natural conclusion is that intrinsic value of money really doesn't matter at all.

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There's also the problem with Bitcoin of inflation. Yes, there's a fixed amount of Bitcoins qua Bitcoin, but anyone can create alternative cryptocurrencies. I don't see why Bitcoin has any unique features that cannot be replicated by others, and therefore you will create massive inflation in a digital coin space.

There are two things I want to say, here.  First, inflation in and of itself is not bad, but actually can be very good for tempering certain market conditions; the only real problem is irresponsible inflation.  Second, alternative cryptocurrencies don't work with the Bitcoin Blockchain.  Sure, if new alt-coins emerge and people decide to move BTC holdings into those alts, then you can imagine it as though Bitcoin is being inflated (even though it isn't) because the sum of all cryptocurrencies in total will have inflated. But...

...I actually wonder if this is precisely why Satoshi didn't allow any room for inflation whatsoever (except by way of a hard fork).  In other words, I wonder if foreknowledge of alt-coin development led to the decision to make BTC completely deflationary, as a naturally-evolving inflation mechanism to help temper cryptocurrency markets in general would arise from the alt-coins themselves.

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So why do I think Bitcoin is still valued today? I think it is because people are fearful of the dollar. They think it's gonna get useless, and they're looking for alternatives. Bitcoin is a product of this fear. Also, I think people are worrying about their privacy. And with good reason, given the growing government intrusion in our lives. People are looking for ways in which to remain private. In which to remain outside the government's abitily to monitor them. Bitcoin provides that. So right now it's providing a value. The value as privacy. The value that it's not paper money. But in a fre market, which we are all working to realize, I do not believe Bitcoin would exist.

I think it's a little fanciful to think BTC is valued today because people are fearful of the dollar.  I can't imagine that very many people use BTC primarily for ideological reasons, and if they do then I'm guessing money isn't especially tight for them right now (else it would be insane to speculate on this market).  I simply think BTC is valued today because its unique features allow it to be a preferable form of money transmission with specific regard to certain types of transactions.  Someone may use BTC for online gambling while using fiat for every other transaction in their lives, for example.  In my case, I prefer to sell things for BTC rather than fiat because I can avoid chargebacks and the enormous fees of eBay et. al., and because of the ease and timeliness of international transactions.

If people are really worrying about their privacy, they're probably doing something illegal or are irrationally paranoid (if you're instead talking about things like the seizure and confiscation of banking accounts, then I can concede the point, especially if you're a Cypriot).  Collecting all data everywhere is certainly unsettling, but filtering through that data is completely different.  If you aren't doing anything illegal or suspicious, there's simply no good reason to waste time and resources to parse through all that extraneous data.  I admit, though, that I'm not a fan of this kind of data collection.  It is unsettling.

I don't think the primary value is privacy.  I think the primary value is its integration with the valuable technology of the Blockchain, compounded by its growing use.
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February 02, 2015, 03:29:22 PM
 #54

yeaaaahhh bullshit ... and i do btw hold bitcoin simply for the sake of an apocalyptic scenario of global economic collapse of all governmental currencies while the internet *somehow* still exists ... i also hold raw gold raw silver guns and loose cut diamonds ... take my evaluation with as much salt as suits you ...
I have a similar standpoint towards my Bitcoin holdings. You never know what can happen and what can be used in such scenareo.
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February 02, 2015, 03:33:05 PM
 #55

What interest do I have in convincing you?

The reality is that the longer it takes for the rest of humanity to recognize the true value of this asset, the more I personally benefit.

By all means, continue your skepticism indefinitely, I'm enjoying access to these $200 coins. I can only earn fiat to melt so quickly, you know.


Ok. Now that is a very good point I've read thus far. Sometimes I also kept telling myself whether seeing the price going up is a good thing or bad thing because I might miss the opportunity to buy the coin at such low price ever again.

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February 02, 2015, 04:21:46 PM
 #56

What interest do I have in convincing you?

The reality is that the longer it takes for the rest of humanity to recognize the true value of this asset, the more I personally benefit.

By all means, continue your skepticism indefinitely, I'm enjoying access to these $200 coins. I can only earn fiat to melt so quickly, you know.


Ok. Now that is a very good point I've read thus far. Sometimes I also kept telling myself whether seeing the price going up is a good thing or bad thing because I might miss the opportunity to buy the coin at such low price ever again.
I feel the same, its a bad thing for us. Let us amass as much BTC as possible now and be rewarded for being believers.
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February 02, 2015, 05:01:56 PM
 #57

Bitcoin has value because it has the following properties:

- Finite supply. Only 21 million coins will ever exist and politicians cannot create more on a whim, which gives it some of the properties of a commodity.
- It's secure and has never been hacked. Poorly run third party companies and individuals have been hacked, but the Bitcoin protocol has not been hacked.
- It's global and could be the first true global currency. It's easy to use Bitcoin for cross border, foreign transactions.
- It removes the third party intermediary, like a bank, and for allows for individual to individual, cash like transactions over the internet.
- It has low transaction costs. Micro transactions are now viable with Bitcoin.
- It can be anonymous depending on how it is used, but the blockchain also provides a treasure trove of information once an individual is associated with a Bitcoin address.
- The Bitcoin mining infrastructure is significant and provides network security. A 51% attack is not financially viable.
- Bitcoin could experience exponential growth due to the network effect.
- It's an open source protocol. It's not owned by any individual or government with an agenda. Anyone can look at the source code behind it.

On the surface, Bitcoin has many properties that are far superior to fiat currencies. I don't know if Bitcoin will succeed or fail, but it does have a tremendous amount of potential. If Bitcoin fails, I have no doubt that something similar will replace it and help reshape global finance as we currently know it.

I would not invest more than I could afford to lose in Bitcoin, but do believe that it's worth a small investment due to the amazing potential.
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February 02, 2015, 05:05:45 PM
 #58

Bitcoin is backed by the laws of Nature:



Or maybe :




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February 02, 2015, 05:58:06 PM
 #59

I have to admit that I'm sceptical about Bitcoin. I'll give you my reasons, then please convince me!

Bitcoin is not backed by anything. It would probably not exist in a free market. Money in a free market has always been some kind of commodity. Something that has value beyond its use as a currency. The problem with Bitcoin is that it has no value beyond its use as a currency. Why should it then be regarded as money? Money came into being as a medium of exchange, so that if you got stuck with it it was useful in some way. It wasn't just a piece of paper. It was something that was useful in and of itself. Like gold. Like silver. Bitcoin has none of that. It's just a string of 0s and 1s. Where does it get its value from? I don't think in a free market it would be valued.

Something like Bitcoin could be used as a currency if it was backed by some commodity to do anonymous/quick transactions, but there would be a standard, ultimately, for exchange. It would always be exchangeable into e.g. gold. So that the banks who issued the Bitcoins were contractually obligated to redeem them into gold. Then Bitcoin would serve as a currency, but the money would be the gold.  

There's also the problem with Bitcoin of inflation. Yes, there's a fixed amount of Bitcoins qua Bitcoin, but anyone can create alternative cryptocurrencies. I don't see why Bitcoin has any unique features that cannot be replicated by others, and therefore you will create massive inflation in a digital coin space.

So why do I think Bitcoin is still valued today? I think it is because people are fearful of the dollar. They think it's gonna get useless, and they're looking for alternatives. Bitcoin is a product of this fear. Also, I think people are worrying about their privacy. And with good reason, given the growing government intrusion in our lives. People are looking for ways in which to remain private. In which to remain outside the government's abitily to monitor them. Bitcoin provides that. So right now it's providing a value. The value as privacy. The value that it's not paper money. But in a fre market, which we are all working to realize, I do not believe Bitcoin would exist.



You should buy Bitcoin because if humanity decides to rise above the state it is in now, blockchain technology will be one of the tools used to get it there.

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February 02, 2015, 06:30:07 PM
Last edit: February 02, 2015, 08:19:08 PM by odolvlobo
 #60

There's also the problem with Bitcoin of inflation. Yes, there's a fixed amount of Bitcoins qua Bitcoin, but anyone can create alternative cryptocurrencies. I don't see why Bitcoin has any unique features that cannot be replicated by others, and therefore you will create massive inflation in a digital coin space.


Despite my annoyance at ignorant people demanding that we spend our time to cure their ignorance, I would like to address this point.

My response is simply that every kind of money can be replicated by another kind of money. This issue should be not considered a problem for Bitcoin for the same reasons it is not considered a problem for other currencies. Any fiat currency can be replicated by creating another fiat currency, and anybody can create a fiat currency. The dollar can be replicated by anyone simply by issuing their own fiat currency and changing the name, yet this problem with the dollar and every other currency is conveniently overlooked when it is applied to Bitcoin. Mr. Pot, I would like to introduce you to Mr. Kettle.

The claim is that because anyone can make an exact replica of Bitcoin, the thousands of replicas will make the original worthless. However, the flaw in this argument is that you cannot make an exact replica of Bitcoin. Each form of money has its own characteristics whether they are imbued by its creators or they arise out of its usage. There are characteristics of Bitcoin that cannot easily be replicated, including the infrastructure that has been built around it, the name, the public perception, and even the people that use it.

The final proof against this claim is simply in the hundreds of Bitcoin clones that already exist. If the weakness of Bitcoin's reproducibility were true, then Bitcoin should be worthless by now. In fact, Bitcoin is unaffected and remains king while the rest are insignificant in comparison.

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