Why Arming the Ukrainians is a Bad Idea

[jaysabi]

let's not start ww3 over a quarrel between far away peoples of which we know nothing, didn't we learn the last time

Unless the aim of fomenting that quarrel over the last 25+ years by use of various American "democracy-promoting" grants, was exactly to start a WW3... In which case I can see US going in full monty, as they are are doing now.


The following bit of the OP article is still conformant to the mainstream Western propaganda line:

Steve and Strobe’s article (and the supporting report with several other prominent authors) rings with fury at Russian actions. And Russian actions are indeed outrageous. But moral indignation, no matter how righteous and satisfying, is not a strategy. A strategy needs to describe just how provision of American arms would make the situation better.

Rather than such a description, the article suggests that a just cause and the Ukrainian need and desire for weapons are enough to justify their provision. But it is hardly surprising that the Ukrainians want American arms in their war against Russia and Russian-backed separatists—they face the possibility of territorial dismemberment and would run any risk to preserve their state intact.

The Ukrainian calculus is one of immediate desperation. But the United States needs to think for the longer-term. And if U.S.-provided weapons fail to induce a Russian retreat in Ukraine and instead cause an escalation of the war, the net result will not be peace and compromise.

The real intellectual break-through in the West will be when they realise that Russia is not present in Ukraine and is not at war with Ukraine. Rather Ukraine is in an imaginary war with Russia. So there is no Russia to retreat in the first place.

What we have in Donbass, are people, who have lived there for centuries, and who have nowhere to go. Yes, they are Russian by ethnicity, so yes, what Kiev-nazis do with US support is in effect an ethnic cleansing. But the people of Donbass are fighting back for their own land and for their right to live, not for Russia.

The "outrageous" actions by Russia so far include: peace brokerage, several hundred thousand tonnes of humanitarian aide, split over 13 convoys, being host to close to a million refugees from the war-zone, and now taking in thousands of young men from Ukraine of conscript age, who don't want to die in a war, imposed on them by Western-backed Nazis.

It's funny you talk about western propaganda while using language like this:

what Kiev-nazis do with US support is in effect an ethnic cleansing.

Amidst the other Russian propaganda in your post. You have no credibility to talk about propaganda when your own posts are so full of it.

[Nemo1024]

It's funny you talk about western propaganda while using language like this:

what Kiev-nazis do with US support is in effect an ethnic cleansing.

Amidst the other Russian propaganda in your post. You have no credibility to talk about propaganda when your own posts are so full of it.

It's not called propaganda, it's called stating the obvious, stating the facts. And I don't need to post any kind of propaganda at all - I make do sticking to verifiable truth.

For the quote above, that you designate as propaganda, please study the following articles:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-u-s-has-installed-a-neo-nazi-government-in-ukraine
http://fortruss.blogspot.com.es/2015/02/ukraine-we-target-civilians-separatists.html

In conjunction they factually cover my statement pretty well.

But once we are on the topic of propaganda, can you, please, point out exactly the other cases of it in my post - you sound as if it's full of it.

[bryant.coleman]

Ooops! Transcarpathia is ancient Hungarian land ! (...and I'm pretty sure Romanians will also discover some evidence of ancient daco-romanian settlements around Kiev.)

Just wait till Ukraine gets the EU membership. 90% of the population will emigrate to Germany and the UK. The Hungarians and Romanians can resettle Ukraine with their own people.

[grendel25]

Total crap trying to assert fears about what Russia might do.  It has nothing to do with Russia and everything to do with Ukraine.  That's what's missing here.  Ukraine is sovereign.

[bitcats]

Just wait till Ukraine gets the EU membership. 90% of the population will emigrate to Germany and the UK. The Hungarians and Romanians can resettle Ukraine with their own people.

Is that happening anytime soon ?

LOL

[Agestorzrxx]

i believe the only solution is after consulting with nato etc, we secretly propose an economic blockade of russia..let them annex the crimea and land to the russian border , sign a peace agreement and again put things back in order..
or, the US and all Nato countries blockade Russia by refusing to do business with Russia and ANY COUNTRY which imports or exports to russia. No banking, no oil, no food, nothing..this means telling every country at a specific time, , you do business with russia, you end all business with us..
they would quickly settle in private and we would save men and resources

[blablahblah]

i believe the only solution is after consulting with nato etc, we secretly propose an economic blockade of russia..let them annex the crimea and land to the russian border , sign a peace agreement and again put things back in order..
or, the US and all Nato countries blockade Russia by refusing to do business with Russia and ANY COUNTRY which imports or exports to russia. No banking, no oil, no food, nothing..this means telling every country at a specific time, , you do business with russia, you end all business with us..
they would quickly settle in private and we would save men and resources

Sounds dangerous. They will become even more isolated, and their thoughts and opinions even more inbred. I think it's important to keep engaging in dialogue, even if the Russians appear to be idiots.

[BitMos]

Sounds dangerous. They will become even more isolated, and their thoughts and opinions even more inbred. I think it's important to keep engaging in dialogue, even if the Russians appear to be idiots.

I prefer the term stubborn and very pointillist concerning their national sovereignty, however those supporting those atrocities in the MENA are frankly sub humans.

[fsb4000]

i believe the only solution is after consulting with nato etc, we secretly propose an economic blockade of russia..let them annex the crimea and land to the russian border , sign a peace agreement and again put things back in order..
or, the US and all Nato countries blockade Russia by refusing to do business with Russia and ANY COUNTRY which imports or exports to russia. No banking, no oil, no food, nothing..this means telling every country at a specific time, , you do business with russia, you end all business with us..
they would quickly settle in private and we would save men and resources

I believe I've never used US banking, US oil, US food. Nice try  
About business: Business is done for the mutual benefit of the two parties, isn't it?
If the US wants to isolate itself is OK, but I think that many think Americans do not want it.

[Snail2]

i believe the only solution is after consulting with nato etc, we secretly propose an economic blockade of russia..let them annex the crimea and land to the russian border , sign a peace agreement and again put things back in order..
or, the US and all Nato countries blockade Russia by refusing to do business with Russia and ANY COUNTRY which imports or exports to russia. No banking, no oil, no food, nothing..this means telling every country at a specific time, , you do business with russia, you end all business with us..
they would quickly settle in private and we would save men and resources

China and India happily doing business with Russia. Try to don't do business with them and next day you will have the biggest economic collapse in human history. Great solution indeed... :/

[Balthazar]

i believe the only solution is after consulting with nato etc, we secretly propose an economic blockade of russia..let them annex the crimea and land to the russian border , sign a peace agreement and again put things back in order..

Good luck with that

[Nemo1024]

i believe the only solution is after consulting with nato etc, we secretly propose an economic blockade of russia..let them annex the crimea and land to the russian border , sign a peace agreement and again put things back in order..

Good luck with that

That's... graphic. Need to make a T-shirt with this map

Total crap trying to assert fears about what Russia might do.  It has nothing to do with Russia and everything to do with Ukraine.  That's what's missing here.  Ukraine is sovereign.

The real problem is that Ukraine is not sovereign any more. It was up until coup d'etat of last year. Now, not a single decision in Kiev is taken before prior visit from some high-standing person from US or EU.

[bryant.coleman]

or, the US and all Nato countries blockade Russia by refusing to do business with Russia and ANY COUNTRY which imports or exports to russia.

Total BS. Do you think that the industries in Western Europe will survive without the cheap Russian gas? Don't tell me the shale gas BS. It is not going to happen in the next 10 years.

[IIpeBeD_MeDBeD]

Hey, americano! Do you know Kuzkinu Mather? Russian Kizkinu Mother!
Here is it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2hvObzZt0g
Good luck! We are waiting you, americano.  

[jaysabi]

It's funny you talk about western propaganda while using language like this:

what Kiev-nazis do with US support is in effect an ethnic cleansing.

Amidst the other Russian propaganda in your post. You have no credibility to talk about propaganda when your own posts are so full of it.

It's not called propaganda, it's called stating the obvious, stating the facts. And I don't need to post any kind of propaganda at all - I make do sticking to verifiable truth.

For the quote above, that you designate as propaganda, please study the following articles:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-u-s-has-installed-a-neo-nazi-government-in-ukraine
http://fortruss.blogspot.com.es/2015/02/ukraine-we-target-civilians-separatists.html

In conjunction they factually cover my statement pretty well.

But once we are on the topic of propaganda, can you, please, point out exactly the other cases of it in my post - you sound as if it's full of it.

Two references to Kiev-Nazis, loaded term ethnic cleansing, referring to anything you don't agree with as western propaganda, spinning of Russian actions in Ukraine as solely humanitarian, yada yada. None of these are facts, it's all propaganda. Your post is absolutely rife with it.

[Nemo1024]

I call them Kiev-Nazis, because that's who came to power in Kiev through a violent coup d'etat. It's a case of calling a spade for a spade.

Ethnic cleansing... How else would you like me to call killing off of the population of Donbass that is based on the language and nationality attribution? The case that a term is loaded does not deprive it of its describing accuracy. But if you prefer: "premeditated killing of Russian population of Dobass".

13 humanitarian aid convoys are well-documented. The rest of the supposed "Russian actions" are pure speculation, devoid of any evidence. Should such evidence exist even remotely, it would be on the front pages of all the Western papers...

I call for Western propaganda only the baseless, factless accusations coming from Western MSM, who parrot the lies, coming from Kiev and don't bother sending their own reporters to Donbass to see what is going on there for themselves. There are Western reporters who don't toe the line, but they are not given air time in MSM. Wonder why...
Believe me (or don't - it's your choice), I lived in the Soviet Union and was on the receiving end of propaganda. I know how it looks and smells like, and just like many other clear-thinking Soviet people, learnt how to look past it, to filter it out. It's sad to see the same tricks being adopted by the free West.

Now, why don't you come up with your own counter-arguments and facts, refuting my points, instead of just saying that it's "propaganda, move along".

EDIT: If you really want a bit of propaganda, let me try writing the following example:

"Obama, Kerry and Stoltenberg are die-hard commies, supporting the tyranny of the Soviet Union legacy. How else can you explain them fighting tooth and claw for the territorial legacy of the Great October Socialist Revolution of 1917 (the first "colour" revolution - red), where Lenin took out chunks of Russia - Malorossia and Novorossia - and turned them into Ukraine, while Stalin took other bits of Russia - South Ossetia and Abhasia - and gave them to his own Georgia. Both acts in violation of all feasible laws."

Well, how about it? Only the first part of the above turned out to sound like propaganda, while I slipped back into truth in the second part. Sorry. Writing real propaganda is hard.

[Nemo1024]

Hey, americano! Do you know Kuzkinu Mather? Russian Kizkinu Mother!
Here is it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2hvObzZt0g
Good luck! We are waiting you, americano. 

He-he, this is closer to the topic.
"Kuzka's Mother" is a reference to the nukes. Everyone remembers the second act of a stand-off from 1960's. Back then, responding to NATO placing nukes in Turkey, USSR sent nukes to Cuba. The great Western propaganda machine turned it into the "Cuban Missile Crisis" and a great victory for the USA. Never mind that USSR removed the nukes from Cuba only after USA pulled theirs from Turkey.

A similar solution can be applied today. If USA insists ons sending lethal weapons to Ukraine, Russia may just say that it in turn has strategic interests in Cuba, Mexico and Panama and send some "democracy building" help in return...

[Balthazar]

"Obama, Kerry and Stoltenberg are die-hard commies

That's not a propaganda, actually. Obama and Kerry as well as other modern demotards are so left that even Worker's Party of Korea is far-right in comparison with these guys.

[Nemo1024]

An interesting read from Paul Craig Roberts on the way the Western propaganda works:
http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2015/02/05/cowardly-despicable-american-presstitutes/

...
Now to get to the real point. I was listening to this while driving as it was less depressing to listen to NPR’s propaganda than to listen to the Christian-Zionist preachers. In the previous hour NPR had presented listeners with three reports about civilian deaths in the break-away provinces in eastern and southern Ukraine. The first time I heard the report, the NPR presstitute recounted how explosives had hit a hospital killing 5 people in the break-away Donetsk Republic. The presstitute did not report that this was done by Ukrainian forces, instead suggesting that it could have been done by the “Russian-supported rebels.” He didn’t offer any explanation why the rebels would attack their own hospital. The impression left for that small percentage of informed Americans capable of thought is that presstitutes are not allowed to say that the Washington-backed Ukrainians attacked a hospital.

In all three reports, Secretary of State John Kerry was broadcast saying that the US wanted a diplomatic, peaceful solution, but that the Russians were blocking a peaceful solution by sending tank columns and troops into Ukraine. On my return trip, I heard over NPR Kerry twice more repeating the unsupported claim that Russian tanks and troops are pouring into Ukraine. Obviously, NPR was serving as a propaganda voice that Russia was invading Ukraine.

Think about this for a minute. We have been hearing from high US government officials, including the president himself, for months and months about Russian tank columns and troops entering Ukraine. The Russian government denies this steadfastly, but, of course, we cannot trust the now-demonized Russians. We are not allowed to believe them, because they are positioned as the Enemy, and good patriotic Americans never believe the Enemy.

...

Washington and its fawning presstitutes branded the elected Ukrainian government that was a victim of Washington’s coup, “a corrupt dictatorship.” The replacement government consists of a combination of Washington puppets and neo-nazis with their own military forces sporting Nazi insignias. The American presstitutes have been careful not to notice the Nazi insignias.

[jaysabi]

I call them Kiev-Nazis, because that's who came to power in Kiev through a violent coup d'etat. It's a case of calling a spade for a spade.

Ethnic cleansing... How else would you like me to call killing off of the population of Donbass that is based on the language and nationality attribution? The case that a term is loaded does not deprive it of its describing accuracy. But if you prefer: "premeditated killing of Russian population of Dobass".

13 humanitarian aid convoys are well-documented. The rest of the supposed "Russian actions" are pure speculation, devoid of any evidence. Should such evidence exist even remotely, it would be on the front pages of all the Western papers...

I call for Western propaganda only the baseless, factless accusations coming from Western MSM, who parrot the lies, coming from Kiev and don't bother sending their own reporters to Donbass to see what is going on there for themselves. There are Western reporters who don't toe the line, but they are not given air time in MSM. Wonder why...
Believe me (or don't - it's your choice), I lived in the Soviet Union and was on the receiving end of propaganda. I know how it looks and smells like, and just like many other clear-thinking Soviet people, learnt how to look past it, to filter it out. It's sad to see the same tricks being adopted by the free West.

Now, why don't you come up with your own counter-arguments and facts, refuting my points, instead of just saying that it's "propaganda, move along".

EDIT: If you really want a bit of propaganda, let me try writing the following example:

"Obama, Kerry and Stoltenberg are die-hard commies, supporting the tyranny of the Soviet Union legacy. How else can you explain them fighting tooth and claw for the territorial legacy of the Great October Socialist Revolution of 1917 (the first "colour" revolution - red), where Lenin took out chunks of Russia - Malorossia and Novorossia - and turned them into Ukraine, while Stalin took other bits of Russia - South Ossetia and Abhasia - and gave them to his own Georgia. Both acts in violation of all feasible laws."

Well, how about it? Only the first part of the above turned out to sound like propaganda, while I slipped back into truth in the second part. Sorry. Writing real propaganda is hard.

You haven't stated many things that will pass as facts. Facts are objective. "Kiev-nazis" is not objective. "Ethnic cleansing" is not objective, it's a propaganda phrase both sides use in every almost every conflict to rally outrage. Your posts are heavily subjective (asserting as facts things that aren't), and pointing that out is enough to discredit them.