difficulty too high while bitcoin society too small

[afterburner229]

Regarding difficulty, I see no problem... The economy is growing at a reasonable pace.  Higher difficulty results in a more secure network.  Higher difficulty is bad for miners, but good for the overall economy.

Let us stop at this point.
An economy with 10 000 frozen members world-wide is not the economy at all.

Only time will judge us. FEW weeks.

[1714147122]

1714147122

[Anders]

Afterburner make it easy on yourself and understand one simple thing, bitcoin != mining, the mining aspect is just a extra way to make something out of bitcoins atm.

Anders, Clipse, you are newbies, but premium members did confirm that problem I mentioned does exist.
They simply have their own interests in pyramid game.

Of course, I can exactly TODAY bye bitcoins and, EXACTLY a WEEK later, to sell.
And I will have almost 100% guarantie of profit.

BUT THIS IS THE PYRAMID GAME.
 

It may be similar to a pyramid scheme in that those who join early will have the opportunity to make the biggest profit. But in a pyramid scheme, those who join early will continuously receive money from the lower part of the pyramid, whereas in Bitcoin there is no guarantee that the early adopters will get anything at all! Because if the system crashes, then even the those who joined early will lose unless they have managed to sell their bitcoins before the crash. So Bitcoin is more like investing in a growing company. Like investing in Facebook or Google when they were small companies. Or like investing in similar startups that went bankrupt. So there is a risk involved in the Bitcoin system in contrast to a pyramid scheme, plus the most important thing is perhaps that a pyramid scheme is just a fraudulent system leading to a certain crash while the Bitcoin system is something that builds to a potentially very useful monetary system with immense intrinsic social and real value.

[afterburner229]

It may be similar to a pyramid scheme in that those who join early will have the opportunity to make the biggest profit. But in a pyramid scheme, those who join early will continuously receive money from the lower part of the pyramid, whereas in Bitcoin there is no guarantee that the early adopters will get anything at all! Because if the system crashes, then even the those who joined early will lose unless they have managed to sell their bitcoins before the crash. So Bitcoin is more like investing in a growing company. Like investing in Facebook or Google when they were small companies. Or like investing in similar startups that went bankrupt. So there is a risk involved in the Bitcoin system in contrast to a pyramid scheme, plus the most important thing is perhaps that a pyramid scheme is just a fraudulent system leading to a certain crash while the Bitcoin system is something that builds to a potentially very useful monetary system with immense intrinsic social and real value.

I agree with you that bitcoin is not a pyramid by pedantic economical definition. I even trust in honestness of bitcoin software developers and earlier adopters.

I disappoint you by two things:

1. I've detected that current adopters - 'premium' members - are NOT sincere persons.
2. bitcoin society is prooven to crash independently on WHETHER current adopters ARE sincere or NOT.

[Anders]

I agree with you that bitcoin is not a pyramid by pedantic economical definition. I even trust in honestness of bitcoin software developers and earlier adopters.

I disappoint you by two things:

1. I've detected that current adopters - 'premium' members - are NOT sincere persons.
2. bitcoin society is prooven to crash independently on WHETHER current adopters ARE sincere or NOT.

Ok, I don't know if bitcoin will crash or not. Maybe you are right. I know too little about it at the moment (I became aware of bitcoin today!  ).

It will be a real test for the bitcoin system the coming months. For the system to survive and become strong it must be able to handle all kinds of dishonest persons and mischief.

[afterburner229]

DIFFICULTY ALGORITHM IS BLACK HOLE.

May be, even with current exponent BUT with another coefficient, bitcoin were survive, if some 1 000 000 miners & acceptors could enter the game field.

Sad, if bitcoin society will decay @ 10 000 frozen adopters, staying absolutely secure from cryptographic point of view,
 due to one incorrect coefficient in difficulty algorithm.

[LMGTFY]

DIFFICULTY ALGORITHM IS BLACK HOLE.

May be, even with current exponent BUT with another coefficient, bitcoin were survive, if some 1 000 000 miners & acceptors could enter the game field.

Sad, if bitcoin society will decay @ 10 000 frozen adopters, staying absolutely secure from cryptographic point of view,
 due to one incorrect coefficient in difficulty algorithm.

To spare me having to wade through this entire thread (I've been reading it piecemeal since it started, so I've probably missed a lot of it) could someone explain this "10,000 frozen" idea?

[afterburner229]

To spare me having to wade through this entire thread (I've been reading it piecemeal since it started, so I've probably missed a lot of it) could someone explain this "10,000 frozen" idea?

I recommend you read pedantically the whole thread. I hope still, I am wrong for a miracle, and bitcoin society will survive.

Don't worry about time spent in reading: just observe how difficulty increases in time @
http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/

[LMGTFY]

To spare me having to wade through this entire thread (I've been reading it piecemeal since it started, so I've probably missed a lot of it) could someone explain this "10,000 frozen" idea?

I recommend you read pedantically the whole thread. I hope still, I am wrong for a miracle, and bitcoin society will survive.

Don't worry about time spent in reading: just observe how difficulty increases in time @
http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/

I'm familiar with how difficulty has increased over time, thanks (I generated my first block on a 4-core CPU over 5 days, when difficulty was something like 8000). I'm looking for a quick summary explaining where this "10,000 frozen" concept comes from: if the price of that knowledge is having to read the entire thread then I'll pass.

[elewton]

Afternurner has !000% proven it in MATHEMATICL FORMULAS, LMGTFY!!

THe moon is turning constantly, but you DON NOT understand human psychologia.  That is why you will FAIL...

[FooDSt4mP]

Afternurner has !000% proven it in MATHEMATICL FORMULAS, LMGTFY!!

THe moon is turning constantly, but you DON NOT understand human psychologia.  That is why you will FAIL...

ARG BARG FLO GARG!

[BitterTea]

Afterburner is Bitcoin's Harold Camping.

[kjj]

To spare me having to wade through this entire thread (I've been reading it piecemeal since it started, so I've probably missed a lot of it) could someone explain this "10,000 frozen" idea?

I recommend you read pedantically the whole thread. I hope still, I am wrong for a miracle, and bitcoin society will survive.

Don't worry about time spent in reading: just observe how difficulty increases in time @
http://bitcoincharts.com/markets/

I'm familiar with how difficulty has increased over time, thanks (I generated my first block on a 4-core CPU over 5 days, when difficulty was something like 8000). I'm looking for a quick summary explaining where this "10,000 frozen" concept comes from: if the price of that knowledge is having to read the entire thread then I'll pass.

I'll save you the pain.

This guy equates mining = bitcoin in his head.  The notion that people might use it without mining is alien to him.  About a dozen people have tried to set him right, but we've all failed.

Because he missed the goldrush and is unable to mine profitably, no one will ever use bitcoin ever again, and the 10,000 users that got in early are all that there will ever be.

[afterburner229]

I'm familiar with how difficulty has increased over time, thanks (I generated my first block on a 4-core CPU over 5 days, when difficulty was something like 8000). I'm looking for a quick summary explaining where this "10,000 frozen" concept comes from: if the price of that knowledge is having to read the entire thread then I'll pass.

In current (too small) bitcoin society, number of miners roughly equal to number of acceptors, the persons who buy & sell for bitcoin & do BTC/$ exchange. It is a *psychological* law for the small society, number of miners ~ number of adopters, because bitcoin's UFO-like nature for 'average Joe'.

See, Difficulty was some 240000 FEW days ago, and will be some 440000 FEW days later.

Because bitcoin society is too small, I, being 'average Joe', do not trust in it: not because it is cryptographically insecure, but because I doubt in guarantee to easily buy & sell & exchange for BTC world-wide. Now it is something possible but TOO tricky and risky.

But, the cryptographic idea of bitcoin is very nice, so I being 'average Joe', want to join and risk.

But, because I do not trust in terms of sell-buy, I decide to risk as miner: to buy a computer with ATI 5850x2 GPU to start mining. Or even I have this computer with one ATI 5950 as typical computer-gamer. I want switch it for mining in my free nights.

So, FEW days ago I DECIDED to risk and mine. There are not abstract FEW days - they counted from TODAY, 25 may, 2011! Counter is ticking NOW and HERE.

Then, I wake up FEW days later (because I was walking, dancing, drinking etc) and DISCOVER, if I start to mine FEW days later, I lost HUGH amount of profit. If I start to mine (FEW+1) days later, I lost HUGE*2^1 amount of profit. If I start to mine (FEW+2) days later, I lost HUGE*2^2 amount of profit. etc.

This is ROUGH estimate, of course - but this is sufficient.

I DISCOVER EVEN I DID start mining YESTERDAY I have 99.99% possibility that my computer-miner will NOT be compensated by profit at all!

Important, that difficulty-doubling interval is FEW days now, not FEW years or even FEW months.

So I REJECT this CRAZY idea to mine.

I still can risk to play with BTC/$ on exchange, within time interval of few days. BUT As in casino, or Russian roulette.

But I never start buy or sell or exchange for BTC the real goods and dollars in SERIOUS business, because I DO NOT trust that too small bitcoin society allow me to easily input or output real dollars or real gold.

So I REJECT enter the bitcoin society as acceptor TOO.

I being 'average Joe' DOES REJECT bitcoin currency idea at all.

You, 10 000 miners & adopters stay isolated, but 10000 people spread world-wide can-not make solid economy, due to unable of diversification of goods being sell or bought by BTC, neither guarantie for real dollar/gold to easily input/output from TINY needle's eye of some 10 000 members of bitcoin society.

So, 10 000 CURRENT members of bitcoin society will be isolated, rejected by the rest of world -- 'frozen', and start decay quickly.

I have introduced new difficulty algorith's normalization formula, to allow some 1 000 000 - 10 000 000 people world-wide to join bitcoin society as miners, BEFORE considering this society as economics with easy buy/sell/exchange.

----

Then, some premium members call me THE 'idiot'.

[vuce]

Sorry, but why is mining that much different than buying coins? You pay either way, there is no free money. I really don't get why average people would prefer mining to buying that badly.

[kjj]

I'm familiar with how difficulty has increased over time, thanks (I generated my first block on a 4-core CPU over 5 days, when difficulty was something like 8000). I'm looking for a quick summary explaining where this "10,000 frozen" concept comes from: if the price of that knowledge is having to read the entire thread then I'll pass.

In current (too small) bitcoin society, number of miners roughly equal to number of acceptors, the persons who buy & sell for bitcoin & do BTC/$ exchange. It is a *psychological* law for the small society, number of miners ~ number of adopters, because bitcoin's UFO-like nature for 'average Joe'.

NO.  This is not true.

This f*cking thread has gone on and on because you can't imagine yourself using bitcoins unless you get free coins from mining, and then you project your own personal failings onto the rest of the world.

Let me say it one last time:  NOT EVERYONE IS LIKE YOU.

[afterburner229]

Sorry, but why is mining that much different than buying coins? You pay either way, there is no free money.

I described, why does not you read me pedantically? buying coins is too risky, like Russian roulette.
If I am desperado man, I can risk and play on BTC exchange.

But with mining, I have the power gaming computer, I can sell it, if bitcoin mining fails!
Or I may simply switch to use this computer simply as computer!

10 000 people, you do not neither think, nor count numbers, nor read when you ask me to write

[edd]

Afterburner's argument seems to be that since the minig difficulty has increased, it is no longer profitable and the "average Joe" won't accept Bitcoin because he can't make money off of it.

Afterburner229, Bitcoin is meant to be an alternative currency, not a means to profit from mining (that just happened to be a pleasant side effect for early adopters). If the "average Joe" won't use it because he can't understand its benefits, it's not up to us to pay him to use it.

[vuce]

Sorry, but why is mining that much different than buying coins? You pay either way, there is no free money.

I described, why does not you read me pedantically? buying coins is too risky, like Russian roulette.
If I am desperado man, I can risk and play on BTC exchange.

But with mining, I have the power gaming computer, I can sell it, if bitcoin mining fails!
Or I may simply switch to use this computer simply as computer!

10 000 people, you do not neither think, nor count numbers, nor read when you ask me to write

but you can't get the electricity you spent back, therefore you're still paying for mined coins.

[JA37]

Although I don't agree fully with afterburner I can see what he's saying.
Why should anyone invest in bitcoin in the first place? The risk is astronomical. Your investment makes the early adopters rich (not me). You have no stake in it.
I wouldn't throw a dollar into bitcoin at this time, but I have managed to mine about half a block before it became too difficult so I'll keep those and follow the development with interest. New users don't get that chance. They get told to throw money "our" way and hope for the best.
And while there are services and goods that you can buy for bitcoins, it's nowhere near as useful as regular money.

If they can't mine and get a taste for it, then most will just leave it be. I know I would.

[afterburner229]

Let me say it one last time:  NOT EVERYONE IS LIKE YOU.

TRUE.

but count mumbers: 6 000 000 000 Earth citizen minus 10 000 bitcoin society members ARE LIKE ME, 'average Joe'.
The rest 10 000  bitcoin society members spread world-wide, ARE LIKE YOU.

WHY do you RAGE just because I advice to increase number of miners in the game from 10 000 to 1 000 000?

you CAN normalize mining profit to be VERY small, BUT roughly CONSTANT in time interval FEW years, or half a year, to allow 1 000 000 members to join the bitcoin society.

BUT you does close the society. I know WHY.