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Author Topic: Choose: Walk The Plank or Keelhaul  (Read 19175 times)
Maged
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July 25, 2012, 04:11:02 PM
 #61

I'm the one who was "claiming to have slept with his sister", but that was a long-running joke and who the hell thought that was anything but humor? He's openly admitted (on IRC at least) that he doesn't even have a sister. Please tell me: who has actually, seriously claimed to have met him?
Far too many people. Enough for you to have qualified for a scammer tag when this all collapsed and you proved not to actually know his identity. I've always figured that it was a joke, but given that nobody else has identified him at the time and the fact that you took it way too far, it seemed to be true enough. Thanks for coming forward with that.

The paranoia here borders on a full-fledged witch hunt, wherein you (and many others) see anyone who criticizes the weak arguments you have against him as being paid off by him or dishonest.
Huh? I don't know about some people *cough* Vandroiy *cough*, but I don't see the people that support Pirate as being paid off or dishonest, just ignorant. Luckily, ignorance can be fixed and I'm glad to help. People who say they know Pirate (as of this moment, but maybe not after Vegas), however, are absolutely paid off, dishonest, or being misled, as I have just shown.

That is ridiculous. If he admitted to me he was a Ponzi, or I had serious doubts about his honesty, I would not be lending him money. I may be stupid for trusting him, but I'm not dishonest, and I don't see why you'd assume his other lenders are either.
You are dishonest, but at least you admitted it before it was too late.

Now consider what it would take to convince you otherwise.
Sure thing!

1) An audit by a respected third party (or two).
2) A series of pictures of Pirate in poses defined by the community with a sign that says "I am Pirateat40, and I am personally currently responsible for X million dollars worth of bitcoins in debt". Sure, he could still hire an actor, but it'd be more expensive thanks to the legal liability that sign will at least appear to carry.

At the very least, as someone who isn't personally invested in the venture, those would be the absolute minimum requirements to shut me up, given the current size. My standards started extremely small, and have grown as the venture has grown, so I wouldn't call this unreasonable.

If this were anywhere but a pseudonymous internet, would you go around telling people it was a Ponzi? No, of course not, because you'd probably get sued for defamation/slander/libel (whichever one is relevant to the particular flavor you're going for), and you'd actually have to do this face-to-face, which takes something more than an internet tough-guy persona. Now, because this is a forum and everyone loves to be opinionated, right, and rides the highest horse in town ("I'm doing it for the good of Bitcoin itself! No cognitive dissonance here at all!"), anyone remotely associated with him is out to screw everyone else?

Get a grip, all of you.
Actually, I totally would. I've consulted a lawyer in the past about my rights when it comes to speech and defamation/slander/libel. Unless the law where I live has changed recently (admittedly, that's quite possible), this is absolutely the case for me:

I would point out you likely would not be sued for defamation.  At least not in the US.  Most people don't realize how (almost impossibly) difficult it is to win a defamation/slander suit in the SU.

The first amendment has (somehow despite the slow erosion of liberties) managed to keep the burden of proof very high.

Generally speaking (although statutes vary by state:
  • The statement must be false.
  • The defendant must know the statement is false or a reasonable person would determine the statement is likely false.
  • The plantiff must suffer a loss (one recognized by the court as compensatable damages) as a result of the statement.
  • The plantiff must be able to quantify and prove the loss.

The burden is very high.  Plenty of people accuse other people of running Ponzi and don't get sued.   Hell some investment brokers accused Madoff of running a ponzi for YEARS before the ponzi broke.  Proving all four elements is extremely difficult even in the best circumstances.  Lots of times people make claims that likely are slander that it would be impossible to prove.

Even then there are interesting carve outs like the Small Penis Rule.

I have no problem risking getting sued when I truly believe that what I'm saying is right.

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July 25, 2012, 04:25:52 PM
 #62

Beep beep, this just in from #btcst:

Quote from: pirateat40
17:49 <pirateat40> Hey guys, I have a lot of coins moving around (PPT accounts to BS&T accounts and BS&T to PPT accounts).  
It's not only causing issues with backend but it's delaying real withdraws to account holders by reducing the funds in my operating wallets.  
So, if you're moving funds to another account please let me know and I can do the transfer internally to ease the process.  Thanks

BTCST Default Readyness Condition:

CODE ERNIE


Quote from: ineededausername
17:52 <ineededausername> Also, I just want to put in a word for pirate:
it makes his day much easier if you schedule withdrawals in advance. Please do that so we can avoid queues.

All hands on deck!
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July 25, 2012, 04:28:25 PM
 #63

Quote
BTCST Default Readyness Condition:  CODE ERNIE

Worthy of a hard to explain to co-workers LOLZ!
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July 25, 2012, 04:38:29 PM
 #64

I'm the one who was "claiming to have slept with his sister", but that was a long-running joke and who the hell thought that was anything but humor? He's openly admitted (on IRC at least) that he doesn't even have a sister. Please tell me: who has actually, seriously claimed to have met him?
Far too many people. Enough for you to have qualified for a scammer tag when this all collapsed and you proved not to actually know his identity.

You just lost all credibility.

Yeah, I'm through with this forum. There is no place for level-headed and informed commentary here. Enjoy the circlejerks and name-calling.
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July 25, 2012, 04:53:11 PM
 #65

I have no opinions on BS&T, Pirateat40, or Vandroiy but....

10,000 BTC donated to a charity of the forums choosing would be great, especially if it's a Bitcoin related project (I'm not sure if these projects qualify).

Maged
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July 25, 2012, 04:56:36 PM
 #66

I'm the one who was "claiming to have slept with his sister", but that was a long-running joke and who the hell thought that was anything but humor? He's openly admitted (on IRC at least) that he doesn't even have a sister. Please tell me: who has actually, seriously claimed to have met him?
Far too many people. Enough for you to have qualified for a scammer tag when this all collapsed and you proved not to actually know his identity.

You just lost all credibility.
Really? Claiming to know Pirate's identity when you actually don't to convince other people that it's safer to invest in Pirate really does sound like fraud to me. Another word for "fraudster" could easily be "scammer".

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July 25, 2012, 04:58:10 PM
 #67

I'm the one who was "claiming to have slept with his sister", but that was a long-running joke and who the hell thought that was anything but humor? He's openly admitted (on IRC at least) that he doesn't even have a sister. Please tell me: who has actually, seriously claimed to have met him?
Far too many people. Enough for you to have qualified for a scammer tag when this all collapsed and you proved not to actually know his identity.

You just lost all credibility.
Really? Claiming to know Pirate's identity when you actually don't to convince other people that it's safer to invest in Pirate really does sound like fraud to me. Another word for "fraudster" could easily be "scammer".

Maged, do you have the posts by copumkin where he claimed to know pirate?
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July 25, 2012, 04:59:07 PM
 #68

So, I'm assuming that anyone concerned with his identity will be meeting him in Vegas, yes?

What exactly would that prove?  He is human?

I mean IF (and I don't have a horse in this race one way or another) this is a scam we are talking about a million dollar scam and probably a pro.  For a couple grand (a rounding error on the fraud) one could get birth cert, driver's license, and passport in the name Earl Scrooge McPirateDuck Jr.  For a couple grand more you could get a complete back history with matching records for schools, prior employment, credit cards, and all the social media sites to create an entire convincing backstory.  Seeing someone in person on a 1,000 BTC loan has some value.  It is all about risk/cost vs reward.  When the reward is millions of dollars unless you plan on hiring a investigating firm and spending tens of thousands of your own dollars any sel-help "due diligence" is going to come up short.

Now pirate may be running a legit operation (I don't know/care) but if so then what is keeping the "investors" from losing money is simply blind luck not any skill or due diligence.  


I think people are assuming the kind of due diligence that reduces the risk on a 100 BTC has any value in a potential multi million dollar scam.  It doesn't.  Hell you could get a DNA sample from "pirate" only to learn later that the "pirate" you met was simply some actor who lives in Vegas who was paid $10K to play a role for the day.

Once again before someone says proof this, or you can't prove that ... I DON'T GIVE A FLYING CRAP IF PIRATE IS A SCAMMER OR THE BEST BUSINESSMAN THAT BITCOIN HAS EVER SEEN.  It doesn't matter.   The reality is IF this is a scam/ponzi/fraud the victims are playing against someone way out of their league.   Like peewee soccer vs. world cup champs.

This is the credited response.  Besides, please stop for a moment to consider whether you would even have a case against Pirate? Connecting the carbon-based life form to the screen name, to the person that scammed you is no easy feat. Besides, he's said from the get-go "past performance does not guarantee future results," and he joked about running a Ponzi scheme. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=50822.msg702432#msg702432

In the grand scheme of things, this sort of scam is not an unusual event.  Hundreds happen every year, and most are probably larger. This scam happens with any currency with irreversible transactions.  http://fc12.ifca.ai/pre-proceedings/paper_27.pdf

Interesting article, btw.  I believe most of the pro-Pirate people on this forum have been recently cynically promoting him in hopes that they have a seat when the music stops.  For those people, I hope you all fall on your asses.

Lots of people get away with it, and I would bet Pirate does.
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July 25, 2012, 05:16:01 PM
 #69

Yeah, not many people stop to think about it but there is a sweet spot for scammers. Not too little and not too much and then you fall into a gap between the local police and the national enforcement levels.
Vandroiy
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July 25, 2012, 05:16:57 PM
 #70

[I don't know about some people *cough* Vandroiy *cough*, but I don't see the people that support Pirate as being paid off or dishonest, just ignorant.

To be fair, most of the times I mentioned these things, I just wanted to see their reaction. IMO, most of them indeed fall under the category "conveniently ignorant" -- or at least I couldn't tell which it is.

Still, changing the reasoning doesn't make the actions any better.
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July 25, 2012, 05:27:11 PM
 #71

[I don't know about some people *cough* Vandroiy *cough*, but I don't see the people that support Pirate as being paid off or dishonest, just ignorant.

To be fair, most of the times I mentioned these things, I just wanted to see their reaction. IMO, most of them indeed fall under the category "conveniently ignorant" -- or at least I couldn't tell which it is.

Still, changing the reasoning doesn't make the actions any better.


Yeah, I doubt that anyone was directly paid to say anything.  No evidence of that.

But consider: when one is invested in a Ponzi, one has an incentive for it to succeed as long as possible--for you to make some money off of it yourself.  If one had thousands of coins with the Pirate, you wouldn't say a word against him until your principal is back in your wallet.  In fact, you would probably say how brilliant and reliable he was--especially if you had doubts about him.  I think this must have happened--not everyone is so stupid.
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July 25, 2012, 05:31:33 PM
 #72

It's actually expected behavior around which such schemes are built.
CoinCidental
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July 25, 2012, 05:53:04 PM
 #73

It's actually expected behavior around which such schemes are built.

it has to be ,people on level 3 of the pyramid  are relying on people coming in below them on level 4 to guarantee their interest  returns

but as already mentioned , these schemes can run for quite sometime (years) before anyone anyone loses anything and by that time the early adopters will have profited nicely ,pirte will have profited hugely and the people on the bottom few levels will probably lose everything and end up with a 0 balance

If pirate can convince people not to take to withdraw in Vegas ,or somehow inspire more confidence in investors to let the interest compound (appeal to their greedy side ) then it could possibly keep paying out for awhile but nobody will know exactly when disaster is imminent except pirate since its not exactly a transparent operation.....

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July 25, 2012, 06:03:47 PM
 #74

I'm the one who was "claiming to have slept with his sister", but that was a long-running joke and who the hell thought that was anything but humor? He's openly admitted (on IRC at least) that he doesn't even have a sister. Please tell me: who has actually, seriously claimed to have met him?
Far too many people. Enough for you to have qualified for a scammer tag when this all collapsed and you proved not to actually know his identity.

You just lost all credibility.

Yeah, I'm through with this forum. There is no place for level-headed and informed commentary here. Enjoy the circlejerks and name-calling.

Really, Maged lost credibility when defending bitcoinica people despite mountains of evidence that they were deceitful, if not outright lying, stealing, and scamming.

Now, despite there is no evidence that pirate is lying, scamming, or stealing (only conjecture that those MIGHT happen) Maged is trying to suggest that a joke = a scam. That, in turn, invalidates most, if not all, of Maged's judgements.

By that logic, this forum is a scam, because it's certainly become a joke.

After watching all the mods not do shit while BitcoinExpress threatens attacks on litecoin, I seriously don't know how anyone can take anything that mods here say or do seriously.

Seems to come down to protecting friends, and letting enemies hang.

It's because of statements like the above from Maged that I no longer accept forum PMs - I'm certainly not going to let very partial judges judge me or any of my actions. They have shown themselves top be utterly incompetent at that, and completely biased (thus the incompetence)

At this point, Maged is one of the top people on my "do not trust" list.

The true scam is moderating this forum. They use it for their own personal gain, and to support their personal friends. And they expect that we should listen to their judgements about who is or is not a scammer? Riiiiiiiiiiiight. Pathetic.

Theymos, you should clean house. This forum and its staff are quickly losing any credibility you had collectively.

Mine at the Maza Club! with ShastaFarEye Prospectors! Mazacoin PPS & P2pool mining, and more services coming soon!
Maza Means Money! Check yours at the mazacha.in!

Please contact me  on my  OTC registered GPG (A54E87F2) Key's email address or guruvan@shastafareye.net  and encrypt all correspondence.
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July 25, 2012, 06:16:06 PM
 #75

Didn't Charles Ponzi successfully sue for libel?

I recommend asking me for a signature from my GPG key before doing a trade. I will NEVER deny such a request.
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July 25, 2012, 06:59:14 PM
 #76

investments or loans on GLBTSE, the forum, or -otc.
Why mixing the "Transgendered" in? It is GLBSE. Do you have a key on your keyboard that types in "GLBT"?  Grin

Please comment, critique, criticize or ridicule BIP 2112: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=54382.0
Long-term mining prognosis: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91101.0
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July 25, 2012, 07:06:02 PM
 #77

investments or loans on GLBTSE, the forum, or -otc.
Why mixing the "Transgendered" in? It is GLBSE. Do you have a key on your keyboard that types in "GLBT"?  Grin

For the funny Tongue
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July 25, 2012, 07:21:39 PM
 #78

Reading for interest.  As an observation, I know more about Pirate than Maged.  (Pirate's name, address, phone number, age, family and that's from the other side of the world - Hunted it up back in April, wasn't hard)
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July 25, 2012, 07:23:51 PM
 #79

It is one of my bad habits, but when pirate defaults i will not pity anyone that lost money in this. The warning signs were big and plentiful. If someone is incapable of realizing the dangers, so be it. In case there are complaints, i might even start laughing. Sorry in advance Wink
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July 25, 2012, 07:30:39 PM
 #80

Hunted it up back in April, wasn't hard
Why does everyone say that, but then never reveal anything?

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