2012-07-26 brw.com.au - PILES OF CASH, REAL OR IMAGINED

[julz]

BRW is a major Australian weekly business magazine.

PILES OF CASH, REAL OR IMAGINED

Michael Bleby
2012-07-26


http://www.brw.com.au/p/sections/fyi/piles_of_cash_real_or_imagined_hpIQyPUuSquMjLl4y7LBoK

...
The late governor may be pleased to hear there is even a global virtual currency called Bitcoin.

Used for low-cost peer-to-peer transactions to do away with the need for centralised payment processors, it can support anonymous transactions, just like real cash. But plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose. Bitcoin is subject to the same forces that created Macquarie’s dilemma in the first place. It in effect has a fixed money supply, “bringing with it all the associated problems of money hoarding, deflation and depression historically associated with fixed currencies”, the report says.

[osmosis]

I like the comment from vorhees on the Deloitte page..
'You know what's "historically associated" with fiat, non-fixed currencies like the USD? Perpetual debasement and theft via inflation. Some people prefer that their money not be debased by a central cartel given monopoly price-fixing privileges (ie - some people prefer free markets over government planning).'

[LightRider]

All money is imaginary.

[Gabi]

bringing with it all the associated problems of money hoarding, deflation and depression historically associated with fixed currencies”

Fail, so much fail

[julz]

bringing with it all the associated problems of money hoarding, deflation and depression historically associated with fixed currencies”

Fail, so much fail

To be explicit about some of this fail...   it never ceases to amaze me that the people trot out the 'deflation/depression' "problem" apparently without considering what that implies.
It suggests they are worried about the scenario where Bitcoin is the main currency of entire nations or even the globe.
Really? Their main criticism of Bitcoin is that they think it could be so wildly successful that the 'money supply' will be threatened by its deflationary nature?

To be clear - Due to divisibility, I'm not convinced it would be a problem even if Bitcoin was the primary currency, but people comparing Bitcoin's deflation to historical deflation/depression scenarios seems to be treating Bitcoin as a replacement currency set to dominate the world rather than just another currency or commodity amongst many.

[marcus_of_augustus]

All money is imaginary.

Until you buy food with it.

Mathematics is imaginary. Poetry is imaginary. All meaningless statements in isolation.

[LightRider]

All money is imaginary.

Until you buy food with it.

Mathematics is imaginary. Poetry is imaginary. All meaningless statements in isolation.

The reason I point out it's imaginary is to reveal the lie that you need money to obtain food, shelter or any other basic human need.

[unclescrooge]

All money is imaginary.

Until you buy food with it.

Mathematics is imaginary. Poetry is imaginary. All meaningless statements in isolation.

The reason I point out it's imaginary is to reveal the lie that you need money to obtain food, shelter or any other basic human need.

The food, shelter or the like doesn't appear magically out of thin air. You need human work to make these, and so, if money is a representation of human work, you need money to obtain food and the like.

[notme]

All money is imaginary.

Until you buy food with it.

Mathematics is imaginary. Poetry is imaginary. All meaningless statements in isolation.

The reason I point out it's imaginary is to reveal the lie that you need money to obtain food, shelter or any other basic human need.

The food, shelter or the like doesn't appear magically out of thin air. You need human work to make these, and so, if money is a representation of human work, you need money to obtain food and the like.

Most of my food comes from a simple recipe: water + soil + sunlight + labor.  No money involved.  I did pay for my house though.

[LightRider]

Money is irrelevant to the processes of life and the advancement of technology.

[TraderTimm]

To be explicit about some of this fail...   it never ceases to amaze me that the people trot out the 'deflation/depression' "problem" apparently without considering what that implies.
It suggests they are worried about the scenario where Bitcoin is the main currency of entire nations or even the globe.
Really? Their main criticism of Bitcoin is that they think it could be so wildly successful that the 'money supply' will be threatened by its deflationary nature?

To be clear - Due to divisibility, I'm not convinced it would be a problem even if Bitcoin was the primary currency, but people comparing Bitcoin's deflation to historical deflation/depression scenarios seems to be treating Bitcoin as a replacement currency set to dominate the world rather than just another currency or commodity amongst many.

I've looked into the divisibility for another project representing people using fractions of BTC, here's my notes:

...this leads to some interesting possibilities. Assuming that we aren't dealing with the minimum unit - you could represent every person in the united states with one vote (Jul 1, 2011    311.59 million - U.S. Census) for the amount of:

0.0000001 = 10 million 'votes' per 1 BTC
You'd need: 31,159,000 fractions to represent the US population, which equals:
31,159,000 x 0.0000001 = 3.1159 BTC

That's quite heady of a concept, and it wasn't even the minimum divisible unit!

[notme]

To be explicit about some of this fail...   it never ceases to amaze me that the people trot out the 'deflation/depression' "problem" apparently without considering what that implies.
It suggests they are worried about the scenario where Bitcoin is the main currency of entire nations or even the globe.
Really? Their main criticism of Bitcoin is that they think it could be so wildly successful that the 'money supply' will be threatened by its deflationary nature?

To be clear - Due to divisibility, I'm not convinced it would be a problem even if Bitcoin was the primary currency, but people comparing Bitcoin's deflation to historical deflation/depression scenarios seems to be treating Bitcoin as a replacement currency set to dominate the world rather than just another currency or commodity amongst many.

I've looked into the divisibility for another project representing people using fractions of BTC, here's my notes:

...this leads to some interesting possibilities. Assuming that we aren't dealing with the minimum unit - you could represent every person in the united states with one vote (Jul 1, 2011    311.59 million - U.S. Census) for the amount of:

0.0000001 = 10 million 'votes' per 1 BTC
You'd need: 31,159,000 fractions to represent the US population, which equals:
31,159,000 x 0.0000001 = 3.1159 BTC

That's quite heady of a concept, and it wasn't even the minimum divisible unit!

Sending private keys to voters is the easy half of the online voting problem.  Ensuring the key isn't intercepted or used by someone else is the hard part.  I suppose you could register in person to receive a master key that they encrypt each elections key to.  Okay, that "half" wasn't so hard.  Now we just need to make it so the average person can understand it.  THAT is the hard part .

[SgtSpike]

All money is imaginary.

Until you buy food with it.

Mathematics is imaginary. Poetry is imaginary. All meaningless statements in isolation.

The reason I point out it's imaginary is to reveal the lie that you need money to obtain food, shelter or any other basic human need.

The food, shelter or the like doesn't appear magically out of thin air. You need human work to make these, and so, if money is a representation of human work, you need money to obtain food and the like.

Most of my food comes from a simple recipe: water + soil + sunlight + labor.  No money involved.  I did pay for my house though.

Proving the point that money is not imaginary.

[foggyb]

All money is imaginary.

Until you buy food with it.

Mathematics is imaginary. Poetry is imaginary. All meaningless statements in isolation.

The reason I point out it's imaginary is to reveal the lie that you need money to obtain food, shelter or any other basic human need.

The food, shelter or the like doesn't appear magically out of thin air. You need human work to make these, and so, if money is a representation of human work, you need money to obtain food and the like.

Most of my food comes from a simple recipe: water + soil + sunlight + labor.  No money involved.  I did pay for my house though.

Proving the point that money is not imaginary.

I think what he is trying to bring across is that money's valuation is imaginary. That is true. Its in the mind of anyone who perceives value in money. However that doesn't make it invalid or not useful, just like mathematics isn't invalid or useless.

[Dusty]

Money is irrelevant to the processes of life and the advancement of technology.

While, as you state, money is quite irrelevant for the processes of life, its instead absolutely necessary for the advancement of technology because it allows the division of labour and thus, specialization.

[unclescrooge]

Most of my food comes from a simple recipe: water + soil + sunlight + labor.  No money involved.  I did pay for my house though.

if money is a representation of human work,

thank you

[unclescrooge]

All money is imaginary.

Until you buy food with it.

Mathematics is imaginary. Poetry is imaginary. All meaningless statements in isolation.

The reason I point out it's imaginary is to reveal the lie that you need money to obtain food, shelter or any other basic human need.

The food, shelter or the like doesn't appear magically out of thin air. You need human work to make these, and so, if money is a representation of human work, you need money to obtain food and the like.

Most of my food comes from a simple recipe: water + soil + sunlight + labor.  No money involved.  I did pay for my house though.

Proving the point that money is not imaginary.

I think what he is trying to bring across is that money's valuation is imaginary. That is true. Its in the mind of anyone who perceives value in money. However that doesn't make it invalid or not useful, just like mathematics isn't invalid or useless.

In which case the value of life is imaginary because it's in the mind of anyone who perceives value in life...

[notme]

All money is imaginary.

Until you buy food with it.

Mathematics is imaginary. Poetry is imaginary. All meaningless statements in isolation.

The reason I point out it's imaginary is to reveal the lie that you need money to obtain food, shelter or any other basic human need.

The food, shelter or the like doesn't appear magically out of thin air. You need human work to make these, and so, if money is a representation of human work, you need money to obtain food and the like.

Most of my food comes from a simple recipe: water + soil + sunlight + labor.  No money involved.  I did pay for my house though.

Proving the point that money is not imaginary.

I think what he is trying to bring across is that money's valuation is imaginary. That is true. Its in the mind of anyone who perceives value in money. However that doesn't make it invalid or not useful, just like mathematics isn't invalid or useless.

In which case the value of life is imaginary because it's in the mind of anyone who perceives value in life...

Nope.  Life is real because even if I don't value my life I don't stop living.  If I don't value money, it loses it's usefulness.

[marcus_of_augustus]

Money is irrelevant to the processes of life and the advancement of technology.

well you could go back to the barter system that brought us out of caves ... but human advancement is based on the sophistication of division of labour.

And if you haven't figured that out yet, you haven't studied the real functions that money performs.