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Author Topic: 2012-07-25 various - (regulator hits 'brazillian bitcoin investment group')  (Read 7959 times)
julz
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July 25, 2012, 10:39:58 PM
 #1

It was only a matter of time before one of the many 'investment schemes' in the bitcoin community got some regulator's attention.

Quote
CVM determina suspensão de veiculação de oferta de fundos de investimento por Leandro Marciano César  

CVM determines suspension of placement offering of investment funds by Marciano Caesar Leandro


2012-07-25

http://www.ultimoinstante.com.br/empresas/fatos-relevantes/77212-CVM-determina-suspenso-veiculao-oferta-fundos-investimento-por-Leandro-Marciano-Csar.html

...
July 25, 2012-The Board of the Securities Commission (CVM) on Tuesday ordered the immediate suspension of transmission in Brazil of any offer to invest in mutual fund or other security by Leandro Marciano Caesar.
...

The Authority found that Leandro Marciano Caesar, through the "Investment Group Bitcoin", had been using the Internet address https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=46721.0; all. application to offer public funds and other investment vehicles.
...


Judging by the machine translation, this report fails to distinguish between Bitcoin - and the scheme run by 'Leandro César' (bitcointalk username)
Quote
CVM proíbe Marciano de vender Bitcoin pela Internet

2012-07-25

http://monitormercantil.com.br/2012/index.php?pagina=Noticias&Noticia=116704&Categoria=ACREDITE

...
The funny thing is that during all this time was to allow the sale of such Bitcoin with the claim "that became a great tool for investment and speculation."
...



Quote
CVM suspende atividades de Leandro Marciano César

CVM suspends Leandro Marciano Caesar
Authority determined that the investment fund does not meet the requirements of regulations

Felix Edilaine
2012-07-25

http://www.infomoney.com.br/mercados/acoes-e-indices/noticia/2506295/CVM-suspende-atividades-Leandro-Marciano-Cesar

SAO PAULO - CVM (Securities Commission) ordered the immediate suspension of transmission in Brazil of any offer for the investment fund or other security Leandro Marciano Caesar, through the Investment Group Bitcoin.
...


Leandro's response is quite enlightening: http://www.bitcoinbrasil.com.br/?p=464

He makes a fair point about the investments and returns all being in BTC - so it is a little strange that the CVM should see this as falling within their jurisdiction - unless they have determined that bitcoin is a 'currency' ?
Also regarding jurisdiction - the offers were made on a non-Brazilian website, in portuguese, not aimed specifically at Brazilians.

Perhaps this is undesirable attention for bitcoin - but an interesting case for sure.

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Leandro César
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July 25, 2012, 11:21:54 PM
 #2

Hi friends.

Any questions, I am here!

L.

Leandro César
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July 26, 2012, 12:32:16 AM
 #3

I know several people who would be interested in a Brazilian investment for the residency visa. If you could help facilitate this then I bet we could get a great Bitcoin based business started down there.

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July 26, 2012, 02:23:37 AM
 #4

How did they suspend your investment?  Huh

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July 26, 2012, 02:55:19 AM
 #5

How did they suspend your investment?  Huh


Quote from: Brazilian CVM
Stop that! Or we'll say stop again!!

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July 26, 2012, 05:49:06 AM
 #6

This is probably going to be considered "a big deal"


"CVM suspende oferta irregular de investimento em moeda virtual‎"
 - http://br.noticias.yahoo.com/cvm-suspende-oferta-irregular-investimento-moeda-virtual-201946365.html
 - http://oglobo.globo.com/economia/cvm-suspende-oferta-irregular-de-investimento-em-moeda-virtual-5585121


"CVM suspende veiculação de oferta de fundos por Leandro Marciano César"
 - http://monitormercantil.com.br/2012/index.php?pagina=Noticias&Noticia=116667

And the thread for the business:
 - http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=46721.0
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July 26, 2012, 05:49:39 AM
 #7

This is probably going to be considered "a big deal"


"CVM suspende oferta irregular de investimento em moeda virtual‎"
 - http://br.noticias.yahoo.com/cvm-suspende-oferta-irregular-investimento-moeda-virtual-201946365.html
 - http://oglobo.globo.com/economia/cvm-suspende-oferta-irregular-de-investimento-em-moeda-virtual-5585121


"CVM suspende veiculação de oferta de fundos por Leandro Marciano César"
 - http://monitormercantil.com.br/2012/index.php?pagina=Noticias&Noticia=116667

Big deal? It's all moonspeak to me.

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July 26, 2012, 05:51:29 AM
 #8

lol @ those silly regulators.

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July 26, 2012, 06:52:45 AM
 #9

This is just showing that Brazil is not going to be the place to do bitcoin related business, I don't believe that other first world countries will be following suit. This seems like a lazy decision by some official "what? bitcoin, Reals whatever, you need a 'licence' to continue".

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July 26, 2012, 07:47:03 AM
 #10

This is just showing that Brazil is not going to be the place to do bitcoin related business, I don't believe that other first world countries will be following suit. This seems like a lazy decision by some official "what? bitcoin, Reals whatever, you need a 'licence' to continue".

Why? What are they doing besides linking to his thread? I can't figure it out, maybe they are doing something.

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July 26, 2012, 08:02:59 AM
 #11

Hi friends.

Any questions, I am here!

L.

A few questions:

1.) Had there been any prior contact from any agency in Brazil related to Bitcoin or this investment fund?

2.) Will the investment fund be closing?
If not, will it be closed to all investors from Brazil (current and in the future)?
Also, if not, will you continue to administer it?

3.) How large is the fund currently (bitcoins invested) and how many investors are there for that amount?
Round 8 shows 500 BTC, is that correct as the total investment currently from all investors?
What is the largest amount by any one investor?

4.) How much of this current round was carried over from the previous round?
How much of earnings are re-invested (e.g., from the last round into this round?)

5.) Have there ever been any rounds where there were losses?

6.) Has there ever been a claim by an investor that access to funds wasn't granted?

7.) Do the balances of wallets, EWallets and exchange accounts (valued in terms of BTCs) currently either equal or exceed the total amount invested?
i.e., can every bit of the invested funds be accounted for?  Has an audit ever been performed by another party?

8.) Are there any ties with other Bitcoin or financial-related organizations?
(e.g., own, are employed by, or receive compensation from any exchange?)
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July 26, 2012, 08:38:25 AM
 #12

Hi friends.

Any questions, I am here!

L.

I'm sorry to hear that. It was bound to happen. I guess we'll have to hide more to invest in bitcoin.

First question: they can't now to details of your investments and the size of the fund, since this is in bitcoins? Right?

Also, what happens to the fund? Are the bitcoins returned to us, or what?

Thanks
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July 26, 2012, 08:58:25 AM
 #13

I hate this fascit pigs, these parasites, and above all I hate how passive we the peoples are. Democracy? Social justice? What a joke...
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July 26, 2012, 11:29:16 AM
 #14

Someone noted in a article, that CVM (the regulator) now has two choices:

Admit that bitcoin is currency (the first country in the world doing that!)

or say that bitcoin is NOT currency (and thus they cannot punish Leonardo)

I wonder what will happen next =D

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July 26, 2012, 11:33:24 AM
 #15

damn interesting...

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July 26, 2012, 11:42:27 AM
 #16

I don't believe that other first world countries will be following suit.

Instead I am scared as hell of a GLBSE crackdown. I hope that you have contingency plans in case of a SHTF event of this kind, at least to protect the assets of investors.
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July 26, 2012, 11:44:18 AM
 #17

I don't believe that other first world countries will be following suit.

Instead I am scared as hell of a GLBSE crackdown. I hope that you have contingency plans in case of a SHTF event of this kind, at least to protect the assets of investors.

Nefario seemed to have taken good measures to protect our investments, I'm not too worried.
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July 26, 2012, 12:11:55 PM
 #18

Someone noted in a article, that CVM (the regulator) now has two choices:

Admit that bitcoin is currency (the first country in the world doing that!)

or say that bitcoin is NOT currency (and thus they cannot punish Leonardo)

Third choice: threat Leandro. Him not being insane, closes his fund. CVM doesn't bother to say anything more.

Plus, them officially recognizing bitcoin as a form of money would not be good at all, IMHO.
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July 26, 2012, 12:25:58 PM
 #19

@ Leandro:

What was the official reason given for closing your operation down?
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July 26, 2012, 01:11:53 PM
 #20

@ Leandro:

What was the official reason given for closing your operation down?

He had no authorization to operate investment funds, basically. At least that's what I've seen.

18rZYyWcafwD86xvLrfuxWG5xEMMWUtVkL
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July 26, 2012, 01:13:23 PM
 #21

This is an investment fund only if bitcoin is recognized as money by the parasites that be.

True this is a very interesting case Smiley
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July 26, 2012, 05:47:57 PM
 #22

Lol, a government attacking our funny little game? Nonsense, we made (ok i know i did nothing) our game, we play it and they now tell us to stop? Next thing will be what, Brazil attacking EVE Online? World of Warcraft? They too have VIRTUAL MONEY
Hell, in EVE they too invest and get paid a % interest! Go Brazil, suspend EVE now!!!!!! Omg a friend of mine invested some eve money in a corporation building spaceships, is that illegal?  Cheesy

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July 26, 2012, 07:22:26 PM
 #23

Never underestimate the craziness of governments and their presumption to have to regulate everything and forbid what they don't like.

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July 27, 2012, 12:05:14 AM
 #24

So a government does the only sensible thing and treats Bitcoin as money or dare I say "virtual currency" and this is an attack on Bitcoin by a "parasitic" government. I do not think so. For many of us that is good news.

Concerned that blockchain bloat will lead to centralization? Storing less than 4 GB of data once required the budget of a superpower and a warehouse full of punched cards. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/IBM_card_storage.NARA.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punched_card
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July 27, 2012, 01:35:39 AM
 #25

This is what Leandro tells me via email:

Quote
Hello Leandro,
Very unfortunate with what I just heard! Will the recent incident with CVM affect the bitcoins I have with you?

Best,
Anthony

Quote
No effects!

More a few days, the site will be launched!!

Any questions, I am here!

Hugs.

L.

Quote
So what exactly did CVM charge you with? Did someone report your fund?

Anthony

Quote
No!

They did find on bitcointalk fórum!!!! Sad

There is a gov big brother here in Brazil!

Friend, be the first to know!!!

http://bitcoinrain.com/

Did you see?

L.

Quote
Bitcoin Rain looks nice, curious to what it will look like Smiley Did they mandate that you cannot say that you operate out of brazil?

Quote
I cant say that this group exists. I cant announce this site on Brazil.

Sucks!

L.

Quote
your biggest market was brazil! what will happen to your investors from brazil?

Quote
They can make investments on new site.

Only me cant make announce on Brazil! Smiley

L.

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ThiagoCMC
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July 27, 2012, 04:56:13 AM
 #26

Not as a currency, but CVM just classified Bitcoin as this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_(finance)
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July 27, 2012, 04:57:20 AM
 #27

This is just showing that Brazil is not going to be the place to do bitcoin related business, I don't believe that other first world countries will be following suit. This seems like a lazy decision by some official "what? bitcoin, Reals whatever, you need a 'licence' to continue".

Quite the opposite!!

Now, every single company in Brazil will want Bitcoins!! Because, now, Bitcoin is a Security for the Brazilian Government.

I just LOL a lot!!
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July 27, 2012, 04:58:20 AM
 #28

Not as a currency, but CVM just classified Bitcoin as this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_(finance)


WTF is CVM?!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Securities_Commission_(Brazil)
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July 27, 2012, 05:11:43 AM
 #29

CVM isn't quite government. It's an autarchy.

Rule yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autarchism

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July 27, 2012, 05:18:07 AM
 #30

CVM isn't quite government. It's an autarchy.

Rule yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autarchism

Yes, it isn't the government itself but, it is directly linked to it... "Works for it"...

Sorry... My mistake...
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July 27, 2012, 07:48:53 AM
 #31

So a government does the only sensible thing and treats Bitcoin as money or dare I say "virtual currency" and this is an attack on Bitcoin by a "parasitic" government. I do not think so. For many of us that is good news.

They've forbidden a group of people from making money together. No fraud or crime had happened. Leandro was not hiding his identity.
In what universe can such prohibition be good news??

If they decide to apply all their stupid and corrupt laws to bitcoin as they apply to "their money", they'll just make the bitcoin ecosystem almost as awful as the traditional financial system.

Maybe you should read this: http://themonetaryfuture.blogspot.com/2011/11/air-guitars-and-bitcoin-regulation.html
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July 27, 2012, 07:51:41 AM
 #32

Lol, a government attacking our funny little game? Nonsense, we made (ok i know i did nothing) our game, we play it and they now tell us to stop?

Why are you laughing? They already made them stop. Leandro had to close his funds if he doesn't want to be forced to pay thousands in fines and eventually even be kidnapped.

Next thing will be what, Brazil attacking EVE Online? World of Warcraft? They too have VIRTUAL MONEY
Hell, in EVE they too invest and get paid a % interest! Go Brazil, suspend EVE now!!!!!! Omg a friend of mine invested some eve money in a corporation building spaceships, is that illegal?  Cheesy

Don't give them too much ideas!
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July 27, 2012, 07:56:05 AM
 #33

How did they suspend your investment?  Huh


Quote from: Brazilian CVM
Stop that! Or we'll say stop again!!

It's more like:

Quote from: Brazilian CVM
Stop that! Or we'll force you to pay R$5.000,00 (~250BTC) per day of disobedience!
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July 27, 2012, 08:43:11 AM
 #34

this is an attack on Bitcoin by a "parasitic" government

That someone is telling others adults to stop their voluntary exchanges is just a classic move of the parasites that (try to) rule us, and in any way should be considered "normal" (although nowadays most people find it normal that someone can tell other adults to stop doing business with one another, what a sad world we live in...).
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July 27, 2012, 08:47:00 AM
 #35

So a government does the only sensible thing and treats Bitcoin as money or dare I say "virtual currency" and this is an attack on Bitcoin by a "parasitic" government. I do not think so. For many of us that is good news.

They've forbidden a group of people from making money together. No fraud or crime had happened. Leandro was not hiding his identity.
In what universe can such prohibition be good news??

If they decide to apply all their stupid and corrupt laws to bitcoin as they apply to "their money", they'll just make the bitcoin ecosystem almost as awful as the traditional financial system.

Maybe you should read this: http://themonetaryfuture.blogspot.com/2011/11/air-guitars-and-bitcoin-regulation.html

I think the key to this whole event it this
Quote
Leandro was not hiding his identity.
, this is where he went wrong, or at least he didn't think it would matter. Had his identity been kept a secret then they could have done nothing, not knowing who he was they would have been unable to prosecute, or even send him a letter with angry words.

I think we know the direction that needs to be taken regarding the identity of people doing things in bitcoin land.

Really I think this is a case of the right people not being bribed.

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July 27, 2012, 10:47:50 AM
 #36

So a government does the only sensible thing and treats Bitcoin as money or dare I say "virtual currency" and this is an attack on Bitcoin by a "parasitic" government. I do not think so. For many of us that is good news.

They've forbidden a group of people from making money together. No fraud or crime had happened. Leandro was not hiding his identity.
In what universe can such prohibition be good news??

If they decide to apply all their stupid and corrupt laws to bitcoin as they apply to "their money", they'll just make the bitcoin ecosystem almost as awful as the traditional financial system.

Maybe you should read this: http://themonetaryfuture.blogspot.com/2011/11/air-guitars-and-bitcoin-regulation.html

I think the key to this whole event it this
Quote
Leandro was not hiding his identity.
, this is where he went wrong, or at least he didn't think it would matter. Had his identity been kept a secret then they could have done nothing, not knowing who he was they would have been unable to prosecute, or even send him a letter with angry words.

I think we know the direction that needs to be taken regarding the identity of people doing things in bitcoin land.

Really I think this is a case of the right people not being bribed.

Doesn't that concern you in regards to GLBSE? You're also not anonymous. Far from it.

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July 27, 2012, 02:25:20 PM
 #37

So a government does the only sensible thing and treats Bitcoin as money or dare I say "virtual currency" and this is an attack on Bitcoin by a "parasitic" government. I do not think so. For many of us that is good news.

They've forbidden a group of people from making money together. No fraud or crime had happened. Leandro was not hiding his identity.
In what universe can such prohibition be good news??

If they decide to apply all their stupid and corrupt laws to bitcoin as they apply to "their money", they'll just make the bitcoin ecosystem almost as awful as the traditional financial system.

Maybe you should read this: http://themonetaryfuture.blogspot.com/2011/11/air-guitars-and-bitcoin-regulation.html

I think the key to this whole event it this
Quote
Leandro was not hiding his identity.
, this is where he went wrong, or at least he didn't think it would matter. Had his identity been kept a secret then they could have done nothing, not knowing who he was they would have been unable to prosecute, or even send him a letter with angry words.

I think we know the direction that needs to be taken regarding the identity of people doing things in bitcoin land.

Really I think this is a case of the right people not being bribed.

Doesn't that concern you in regards to GLBSE? You're also not anonymous. Far from it.

This is something I've also thought about and I don't think I'm in the same boat as this gentleman for a number of reasons.

Firstly I'm based in the UK (right now in China but that is temporary), which suffers a lot less from corrupt officials than the likes of Brazil (and especially China). Either what I'm doing is legal or illegal, running a stock exchange for a virtual curreny, good luck proving thats illegal.

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July 27, 2012, 03:17:16 PM
 #38

I think the key to this whole event it this
Quote
Leandro was not hiding his identity.
, this is where he went wrong, or at least he didn't think it would matter. Had his identity been kept a secret then they could have done nothing, not knowing who he was they would have been unable to prosecute, or even send him a letter with angry words.

I agree. I prevented him of the danger, actually. Something tells me a part of him wanted this to happen, but this is just my speculation. Wink

I think we know the direction that needs to be taken regarding the identity of people doing things in bitcoin land.

Yeah, but there's always the trust issue. If you go anonymous, people will not trust you, and they have a good reason to do so. If you expose your identity, the state boot crushes you. Complicated dilemma.

Really I think this is a case of the right people not being bribed.

The irony of the thing is, Leandro operation was so small, that any meaningful bribe would be orders of magnitude larger than the entire fund.

And I'm not even that sure a bribe would have worked (if this was a large enough fund). Everything was being done publicly. Unless you also manage to bribe most of the press not to publish anything, but how long can you hold? You'd need very deep pockets, what would make the fund not that worthy to investors due to its costs.
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July 27, 2012, 03:28:15 PM
 #39

Firstly I'm based in the UK (right now in China but that is temporary), which suffers a lot less from corrupt officials than the likes of Brazil

Oh but there was no corruption in this. At least if you define corruption as "not respecting the law", this was not corrupt at all. The law was strictly and actually efficiently applied. And that's the whole problem.

Contrary to popular belief, the main problem with countries like Brazil are not the corrupt officials. These actually give people some air to breath. They allow you, through some bribe, to avoid the worst.  It's precisely those who efficiently apply the laws, like this Otávio Yazbek, that fuck us all. (Of course, officials who ignore all crappy laws and let people live their lives in peace without requiring any bribe are preferable to the corrupt ones, but these are unfortunately quite rare...)

Either what I'm doing is legal or illegal, running a stock exchange for a virtual curreny, good luck proving thats illegal.

Not wanting to be negative, as I sincerely appreciate what you've done (GLBSE), but  I'm pretty sure they can find tons of laws you're breaking.
I think you're putting yourself in danger by operating GLBSE without hiding your identity. I'd like to be wrong on this one though. Smiley
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July 27, 2012, 03:45:23 PM
 #40


Not wanting to be negative, as I sincerely appreciate what you've done (GLBSE), but  I'm pretty sure they can find tons of laws you're breaking.
I think you're putting yourself in danger by operating GLBSE without hiding your identity. I'd like to be wrong on this one though. Smiley

+1

Until we throw governments down we should be as anonymous as possible.
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July 27, 2012, 03:51:52 PM
 #41

running a stock exchange for a virtual curreny, good luck proving thats illegal.
Way to go !

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July 27, 2012, 04:13:25 PM
 #42

[WTS] Brazilian Warcraft CyberInvestment Group Shares  
[WTS] Brazilian Warcraft CyberInvestment Group - Weapons Index ETF
[WTS] Brazilian Warcraft CyberInvestment Group - WoW Gold Trakkers
[WTS] Brazilian Starwars CyberInvestment Group - Lightsaber Futures
[WTS] Brazilian Diablo III CyberInvestment Group - Auction House Binaries Roll Eyes

Coming soon, virtual funds for every MMO in existence and websites hosted from every sovereign nation just to keep you busy CMV!  Grin

Well, either we are not getting all the details or the regulators have a shitstorm ahead of them.


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July 27, 2012, 04:38:53 PM
 #43

Well, either we are not getting all the details or the regulators have a shitstorm ahead of them.

What shitstorm?
They've sent a sort of "cease and desist" letter to Leandro, who, not wanting to get screwed, complied. The fund is over, and that's it. There's nothing "ahead of them".
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July 27, 2012, 07:52:41 PM
 #44

Well, either we are not getting all the details or the regulators have a shitstorm ahead of them.

What shitstorm?
They've sent a sort of "cease and desist" letter to Leandro, who, not wanting to get screwed, complied. The fund is over, and that's it. There's nothing "ahead of them".

My point is if Leandro hasn't broken any Brazilian laws then he shouldn't back down, even with a "cease and desist" letter.

If he was in the USA then definitely drop the word "Investment" from the name, in my opinion, or change it to something silly like cyberinvestments, vaporshares, whatever...




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July 27, 2012, 08:39:36 PM
 #45

Well, either we are not getting all the details or the regulators have a shitstorm ahead of them.

What shitstorm?
They've sent a sort of "cease and desist" letter to Leandro, who, not wanting to get screwed, complied.

He told us he did not complied. Do you have a source where he says otherwise?
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July 27, 2012, 09:20:54 PM
 #46

Well, either we are not getting all the details or the regulators have a shitstorm ahead of them.

What shitstorm?
They've sent a sort of "cease and desist" letter to Leandro, who, not wanting to get screwed, complied.

He told us he did not complied. Do you have a source where he says otherwise?

He removed the thread from the forum. He started another one asking for loans, because asking for loans and paying interest isn't illegal Wink

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July 27, 2012, 11:12:54 PM
 #47

But that imply real money. We just are playing a game where i send you a message in bitcoin and you send me back it, with our funny software, no one can arrest us for that. Or they will arrest me if i shoot someone in a fps?

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July 28, 2012, 12:06:39 AM
 #48

What doesn't kill us makes us stronger.
Friedrich Nietzsche

http://www.bitcoinrain.com/

Hugs.

L.

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July 28, 2012, 04:39:50 AM
 #49

Firstly I'm based in the UK (right now in China but that is temporary), which suffers a lot less from corrupt officials than the likes of Brazil

Oh but there was no corruption in this. At least if you define corruption as "not respecting the law", this was not corrupt at all. The law was strictly and actually efficiently applied. And that's the whole problem.

Contrary to popular belief, the main problem with countries like Brazil are not the corrupt officials. These actually give people some air to breath. They allow you, through some bribe, to avoid the worst.  It's precisely those who efficiently apply the laws, like this Otávio Yazbek, that fuck us all. (Of course, officials who ignore all crappy laws and let people live their lives in peace without requiring any bribe are preferable to the corrupt ones, but these are unfortunately quite rare...)

Either what I'm doing is legal or illegal, running a stock exchange for a virtual curreny, good luck proving thats illegal.

Not wanting to be negative, as I sincerely appreciate what you've done (GLBSE), but  I'm pretty sure they can find tons of laws you're breaking.
I think you're putting yourself in danger by operating GLBSE without hiding your identity. I'd like to be wrong on this one though. Smiley

This is a common stategy of overbearing governments (China being a prime example) where nearly everything is illegal (officially, meaning there is a law against that action which could be applied), the only way to get anything done is to bribe or pull strings. Often there are laws there which are almost never applied, except in the situation where the state wants to take someone down. For example, did you know that it is illegal to have pre-marital sex in mainland China? It's never applied (as you can imagine there are plenty of people sleeping around here), but it's there, ready to be used when it needs to be.

However I believe that the concerns about me running GLBSE are well placed, I still don't think that it's large enough to warrant official attention in the UK at least just yet. I believe my next step will be to separate the deveopment of GLBSE and it's running. With the development being tied to my public identity.

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July 28, 2012, 08:17:29 AM
 #50

Firstly I'm based in the UK (right now in China but that is temporary), which suffers a lot less from corrupt officials than the likes of Brazil

Oh but there was no corruption in this. At least if you define corruption as "not respecting the law", this was not corrupt at all. The law was strictly and actually efficiently applied. And that's the whole problem.

Contrary to popular belief, the main problem with countries like Brazil are not the corrupt officials. These actually give people some air to breath. They allow you, through some bribe, to avoid the worst.  It's precisely those who efficiently apply the laws, like this Otávio Yazbek, that fuck us all. (Of course, officials who ignore all crappy laws and let people live their lives in peace without requiring any bribe are preferable to the corrupt ones, but these are unfortunately quite rare...)

Either what I'm doing is legal or illegal, running a stock exchange for a virtual curreny, good luck proving thats illegal.

Not wanting to be negative, as I sincerely appreciate what you've done (GLBSE), but  I'm pretty sure they can find tons of laws you're breaking.
I think you're putting yourself in danger by operating GLBSE without hiding your identity. I'd like to be wrong on this one though. Smiley

This is a common stategy of overbearing governments (China being a prime example) where nearly everything is illegal (officially, meaning there is a law against that action which could be applied), the only way to get anything done is to bribe or pull strings. Often there are laws there which are almost never applied, except in the situation where the state wants to take someone down. For example, did you know that it is illegal to have pre-marital sex in mainland China? It's never applied (as you can imagine there are plenty of people sleeping around here), but it's there, ready to be used when it needs to be.

However I believe that the concerns about me running GLBSE are well placed, I still don't think that it's large enough to warrant official attention in the UK at least just yet. I believe my next step will be to separate the deveopment of GLBSE and it's running. With the development being tied to my public identity.

Did you mean to say America?

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July 28, 2012, 10:53:00 AM
 #51

Firstly I'm based in the UK (right now in China but that is temporary), which suffers a lot less from corrupt officials than the likes of Brazil

Oh but there was no corruption in this. At least if you define corruption as "not respecting the law", this was not corrupt at all. The law was strictly and actually efficiently applied. And that's the whole problem.

Contrary to popular belief, the main problem with countries like Brazil are not the corrupt officials. These actually give people some air to breath. They allow you, through some bribe, to avoid the worst.  It's precisely those who efficiently apply the laws, like this Otávio Yazbek, that fuck us all. (Of course, officials who ignore all crappy laws and let people live their lives in peace without requiring any bribe are preferable to the corrupt ones, but these are unfortunately quite rare...)

Either what I'm doing is legal or illegal, running a stock exchange for a virtual curreny, good luck proving thats illegal.

Not wanting to be negative, as I sincerely appreciate what you've done (GLBSE), but  I'm pretty sure they can find tons of laws you're breaking.
I think you're putting yourself in danger by operating GLBSE without hiding your identity. I'd like to be wrong on this one though. Smiley

This is a common stategy of overbearing governments (China being a prime example) where nearly everything is illegal (officially, meaning there is a law against that action which could be applied), the only way to get anything done is to bribe or pull strings. Often there are laws there which are almost never applied, except in the situation where the state wants to take someone down. For example, did you know that it is illegal to have pre-marital sex in mainland China? It's never applied (as you can imagine there are plenty of people sleeping around here), but it's there, ready to be used when it needs to be.

However I believe that the concerns about me running GLBSE are well placed, I still don't think that it's large enough to warrant official attention in the UK at least just yet. I believe my next step will be to separate the deveopment of GLBSE and it's running. With the development being tied to my public identity.

Did you mean to say America?

Probably America too, but it's much more obvious in places like China, take for example the definition of a state secret in China, anything that is said in public that is not approved by the government. Only applied when someone has pissed off the wrong person in the communist party.

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July 28, 2012, 04:54:03 PM
 #52

I really can't compare, just didn't want our persecution overlooked :-)

So, Cesar, the original project is done or no? And there is a new project with no details released yet?

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July 28, 2012, 05:02:17 PM
 #53

What doesn't kill us makes us stronger.
Friedrich Nietzsche


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July 29, 2012, 09:32:30 AM
 #54

Another post on the subject:

 - http://silvervigilante.com/bitcoin-attacked-by-brazils-securities-commission-under-the-control-of-international-finance/
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July 29, 2012, 06:06:02 PM
 #55

This is a common stategy of overbearing governments (China being a prime example) where nearly everything is illegal (officially, meaning there is a law against that action which could be applied), the only way to get anything done is to bribe or pull strings. Often there are laws there which are almost never applied, except in the situation where the state wants to take someone down. For example, did you know that it is illegal to have pre-marital sex in mainland China? It's never applied (as you can imagine there are plenty of people sleeping around here), but it's there, ready to be used when it needs to be.

This is crypto-totalitarianism. It's mostly everywhere, unfortunately.
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July 30, 2012, 08:09:46 AM
 #56

This is just showing that Brazil is not going to be the place to do bitcoin related business, I don't believe that other first world countries will be following suit. This seems like a lazy decision by some official "what? bitcoin, Reals whatever, you need a 'licence' to continue".

This example illustrates why Brazil is rank 126 (out of 183) on the World Bank's Ease of Doing Business Index.

Red tape and regulatory overzealousness in Brazil is horrible. Doing any kind business there is more difficult than in English speaking countries. 

On the other hand, the market is less saturated, and there are more gaps and inefficiencies that present great opportunities for making money.  And Brazilians have a real skill for dodging the overbearing regulators.

That's why am I am certain bitcoin related business won't disappear from Brazil.

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July 30, 2012, 10:31:55 AM
 #57

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eocuqE3Y4Tg&feature=player_detailpage#t=104s

Bitcoin mentioned in this context here as well.....   

"We are just fools. We insanely believe that we can replace one politician with another and something will really change. The ONLY possible way to achieve change is to change the very system of how government functions. Until we are prepared to do that, suck it up for your future belongs to the madness and corruption of politicians."
Martin Armstrong
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