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Author Topic: What happens to Bitcoin when free energy is available?  (Read 7759 times)
punningclan
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August 05, 2012, 01:00:15 AM
 #61

The universe would heat up till it is no longer possible to maintain a liveable environment making it irrelevant.

But assuming free energy also would come with 100% efficient computing it would simply be about the space occupied by those machines. Not that big of a deal.

Although it's probably impossible to heat up an infinite amount of space that much.

It was a cunning plan to have the funny man be the money fan of the punning clan.
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punningclan
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August 05, 2012, 01:08:03 AM
 #62

Energy by definition is unfree.

Even wind power causes angular deceleration of the planet.

And of course that changes the course of our system and that changes the course of the galaxy and that changes...It's turtles all the way down..

It was a cunning plan to have the funny man be the money fan of the punning clan.
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August 05, 2012, 01:11:42 AM
 #63

This topic has a good point and it's  being ruined by SCIENCE.

What happens when power is cheap to the point that you can run an overclocked GPU for a penny a year? That was what the question should have been as it's actually a good question. Does the value of bitcoin drop or does the price of the GPU back it then? And if so, what happens when the CPUs, GPUs and ASICs that "crack" those "passwords" are manufactured for $1 per minirig? What happens to Bitcoin and the network?

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August 05, 2012, 01:31:37 AM
 #64

This topic has a good point and it's  being ruined by SCIENCE.

What happens when power is cheap to the point that you can run an overclocked GPU for a penny a year? That was what the question should have been as it's actually a good question. Does the value of bitcoin drop or does the price of the GPU back it then? And if so, what happens when the CPUs, GPUs and ASICs that "crack" those "passwords" are manufactured for $1 per minirig? What happens to Bitcoin and the network?

Other things become the limiting factors.

Energy may get to the point of being practically "free," but it will never be unlimited.

Suppose we are able to develop 100% efficient solar panels for 1 cent US per 100 square meters? At that point, the limiting factor won't so much be money or electricity as how much space you have to lay out solar panels.

Ditto for "zero point energy" or whatever it's called. What little I know of it suggests it relies on space... 8 cubic meters of space could generate 8x the power of 1 cubic meter of space, but that's it. At that point, the guy with the mansion has the edge on the guy with the tiny apartment. There still wouldn't be an infinite amount of hashing power coming online.

Of course, I'm fairly certain we could probably calculate some actual limit (I believe I've seen some maths on the threads that lean toward that.) There is a minimum energy expenditure per logic/math calculation, and we could probably determine a minimum hardware area/volume required per calculation as well.

Upshot of it all: hashing power will continue to go up, based in part on how much energy out of our productivity we (as a global society) choose to devote to mining. But there IS a hard limit, and there will still only be a new block every 10 minutes on average, and the price per bitcoin will still be primarily determined by demand, and little else.

Q: "What happens to Bitcoin when free energy is available?"
A: Nothing much.

Bitcoin is the ultimate freedom test. It tells you who is giving lip service and who genuinely believes in it.
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August 05, 2012, 02:18:20 AM
 #65

The entire world changes. A total change in societal power structures. Bitcoin would be useful still, but it's cost of production would plummet to the cost of the rigs and time required to run them. Thus, the network difficulty would go vertical. And wind power is not free because you have to build turbines. Perhaps I am misunderstanding this concept. I am thinking in terms of a unlimited power source available to all.

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August 05, 2012, 03:43:15 AM
 #66

This topic has a good point and it's  being ruined by SCIENCE.

What happens when power is cheap to the point that you can run an overclocked GPU for a penny a year? That was what the question should have been as it's actually a good question. Does the value of bitcoin drop or does the price of the GPU back it then? And if so, what happens when the CPUs, GPUs and ASICs that "crack" those "passwords" are manufactured for $1 per minirig? What happens to Bitcoin and the network?
Yeah exactly what i was trying to ask thanks for clearing that up matt.
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August 05, 2012, 11:16:00 AM
 #67

The discovery of "Free Energy" would not change the world in an instant.

It would still take time to make enough machines to replace the existing energy infrastructure.

Things would gradually become cheaper and cheaper. There would still be a need for some kind of money in the economy.

Eventually after many years or decades things would become so cheap that money might become obsolete.

Since Free Energy would disrupt the existing power elites who connected to the financial elites, it's possible that people might choose Bitcoin as an alternative form of currency.

Most importantly though the discovery of Free Energy would change the mindset of people worldwide from one of scarcity to abundance.

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August 05, 2012, 12:10:01 PM
 #68

Before we have "free energy" we will have AI beyond human capabilities. Bitcoin will evolve into a tool not for acquiring what you simply want, but instead what you really need. They will read your mind (at the very least through lie detection) and create a global economy that fosters self-actualization in civilization itself.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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August 05, 2012, 12:47:57 PM
 #69

The grammar is incorrect in the title.  It should be "What happens to Bitcoin IF free energy is available?"  The premise that it's going to happen and is inevitable is inherently flawed, as no one has shown it works or is even possible.

If free energy becomes available then what happens to bitcoin is pretty much irrelevant: all of humanity will experience a revolution in living standards.

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August 05, 2012, 08:43:16 PM
 #70

So the conclusion is physical space, and inital startup costs of "free" energy and assuming everything is usually costly that bitcoin diffuculty will raise slowly overtime. Causing basically no difference in supply and demand assuming miners are still receving block rewards(+transaction fees rewards). But if we are not recieving rewards and just transactions fee rewards then i guess with "free" energy bitcoins transactions would be inhertly unbreakable with free energy scince the whole world in theory could eventually aquire free energy over time and all help btc transactions.
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August 05, 2012, 08:47:03 PM
 #71

More than likely the mining pools today will be the multi-national conglomerates of the future. We will all be slaves to them with our Brain Miner modules attached.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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August 05, 2012, 10:52:13 PM
 #72

Apparently energy consumption can't keep growing at the current rate for more than a few centuries.

http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2012/04/economist-meets-physicist/
http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/07/galactic-scale-energy/
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August 06, 2012, 08:59:45 AM
 #73

Apparently energy consumption can't keep growing at the current rate for more than a few centuries.

http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2012/04/economist-meets-physicist/
http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/07/galactic-scale-energy/

Yes. Energy is about as cheap as it's ever going to be, regardless of technological advances.

Computing power efficiency, on the other hand, may increase enough to make energy seem much cheaper. Bitcoin has an in-built compensatory mechanism for this: Difficulty.
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August 06, 2012, 12:36:04 PM
 #74

Apparently energy consumption can't keep growing at the current rate for more than a few centuries.

http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2012/04/economist-meets-physicist/
http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/07/galactic-scale-energy/

Yes. Energy is about as cheap as it's ever going to be, regardless of technological advances.

Computing power efficiency, on the other hand, may increase enough to make energy seem much cheaper. Bitcoin has an in-built compensatory mechanism for this: Difficulty.


Energy requirements in the next half century poses a huge problem. 

MIT's Nocera promotes the idea of personal energy.  To leverage simplicity at the cost of efficiency to mass produce home-based power plants and likens it to the economy of scale of the McDonald's hamburger.

http://vimeo.com/8194089
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May 11, 2015, 01:33:52 PM
 #75

So yeah i keep getting lost in thought on this one whats your take on it?
Energy is Free, harvesting it is not.

Here is a recent related development: 2kw generator which consumes no fuel.
http://intalek.com/AuroraTekInfo/PUP3000UC_SpecSheet.pdf

The ROI is currently a little low, but like cellphones did, the price will come down as production ramps up.

For those who do not want to wait, build your own Open Source DC only version much cheaper.
Graham Gunderson has pledged to make his design Open Source in July 2015.

http://patents.justia.com/inventor/graham-gunderson

Estimated cost of materials is $200/kw for the DC only (no AC inverter) DIY Open Source design.
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May 11, 2015, 01:55:01 PM
 #76

How about tesla powerwall.

Edit: not free, but at least gonna be much cheaper in future.
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May 11, 2015, 02:18:39 PM
 #77

Energy is what drives economic production and innovation. If energy were to be truly free and unlimited, we would eventually attain something close to a post-scarcity economy although it would take us a while to get there. Prices for goods will continue to drop every year and the abundance of energy would accelerate advances in manufacturing and the creation of factories which would in turn drive this process even faster. It's likely that the role of money in such a society would change significantly, or it may become obsolete altogether.

If you want to think of the issue in terms of just mining rather than in a broader societal context (i.e. zero electricity costs for miners but everything else remains the same), then it wouldn't be all that different from today. Those with the most hashpower would still be mining the most blocks. And only those with lots of money already would be able to buy massive warehouses and fill them up with the latest machines - as both of these would still be limited in quantity.


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May 11, 2015, 04:46:28 PM
 #78

There will never be free energy. Too many greedy people to allow that to happen.
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May 11, 2015, 04:54:07 PM
 #79

Energy is what drives economic production and innovation. If energy were to be truly free and unlimited, we would eventually attain something close to a post-scarcity economy although it would take us a while to get there. Prices for goods will continue to drop every year and the abundance of energy would accelerate advances in manufacturing and the creation of factories which would in turn drive this process even faster. It's likely that the role of money in such a society would change significantly, or it may become obsolete altogether.

If you want to think of the issue in terms of just mining rather than in a broader societal context (i.e. zero electricity costs for miners but everything else remains the same), then it wouldn't be all that different from today. Those with the most hashpower would still be mining the most blocks. And only those with lots of money already would be able to buy massive warehouses and fill them up with the latest machines - as both of these would still be limited in quantity.

Post-scarcity economy may change how society organize itself. Money will no longer be the prime motivation factor.
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May 11, 2015, 05:13:14 PM
 #80

Energy can't be free. What can be is abundant, and we are going to get there eventually. When they try to tax stuff like the sun, they know they are lossing the battle and asking for a revolution. Fuck paying for the god damn sun! the sun is for everyone, everyone should be free to install solar panels and get "free" energy in the economical sense.

As for BTC, its only good news, since it means everyone being able to benefit from abundant energy without costs beyond the initial installation of the machine will be able to be a miner = stronger network.

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