Confirmation Time

[Come-from-Beyond]

Are you talking about bank cards by a chance? Those with a PIN?

Yes.

[DannyHamilton]

No. Creditcards take 6-12 months for their first confirmation, I dont see anyone complaining about that or any customers camping 6 months because they paid for a coffee with a CC.

Credit cards take 5 sec for their first confirmation.

Are you talking about bank cards by a chance? Those with a PIN?

Yes.

Then please say so, and stop spreading misinformation and FUD.  There are significant differences between PIN based bank debit cards and credit cards. 

[Come-from-Beyond]

Then please say so, and stop spreading misinformation and FUD.  There are significant differences between PIN based bank debit cards and credit cards.  

It's you guys spreading FUD about bank cards. You compare Bitcoin (with 5 min confirmation time) against a crap from 19th century that can't be validated during week-ends and requires a phone call to the bank. Play fair and compare Bitcoin payments to conventional (and modern) products of bank industry.

PS: Btw, my own card is a "credit" one (within a reasonable limit). It has PIN, special chip and VISA engraved on it. And it requires 5 seconds for validation of a payment.

[DannyHamilton]

Then please say so, and stop spreading misinformation and FUD.  There are significant differences between PIN based bank debit cards and credit cards. 

It's you guys spreading FUD about bank cards. You compare Bitcoin (with 5 min confirmation time) against a crap from 19th century that can't be validated during week-ends and requires a phone call to the bank. Play fair and compare Bitcoin payments to conventional (and modern) products of bank industry.

Now you're just making stuff up.  I think this conversation has reached a logical conclusion.  Thank you for your input, I'll be moving on.

[BlackMarketKarma]

You can think whatever you like...

Thank you.

... but the fact remains that credit card transactions remain reversible for many months since a customer can refuse the charges and, depending on the contract that the merchant has with the credit card processor, the merchant can lose those funds.

Are you a citizen of the USA by a chance? These guys always think that rules in the USA are universal rules working in the whole universe.

I don't particularly appreciate the blanket statement in regards to Americans and how we 'always' think the law and rules stateside resonate throughout Mother Earth. Perhaps the aforementioned overgeneralization and similar lines of thought work harder to perpetuate what, unfortunately, ends with contagious stereotypes. I would venture to guess that you nor I are that uncultured.

[pooya87]

Sorry if this has been asked before, i did search.

So I've sent some BTC to an address over 30mins ago and still not even 1 confirmation. Firstly wouldn't this be an issue for BTC to ever be mainstream if you can't pay for things immediately in shops etc?

Also I presume the confirmation time will take longer the bigger the difficulty?

I think i've understood how it works correctly?

yeah, unfortunately this is one of the biggest concerns or problems about payments being done in bitcoin, i think the only major things bitcoin is good right now is for a few people who are trading it to make money and the other thing is for sending large sums of money especially oversees.

[Come-from-Beyond]

Now you're just making stuff up.  I think this conversation has reached a logical conclusion.  Thank you for your input, I'll be moving on.

So, basically, you say that you can't play fair game. Of course you can't, in this case Bitcoin loses on all points.

[Come-from-Beyond]

I don't particularly appreciate the blanket statement in regards to Americans and how we 'always' think the law and rules stateside resonate throughout Mother Earth.

So you casted your voice not for Obama? Ok, sorry then, you are excluded from that group.

[BlackMarketKarma]

Objection - relevancy. More of the same regurgitated verbal defecation that's blinding my ability to see through your fuzzy logic, if deduction can reason it as such.


I've been running v. 0.5.13 and its predecessors for quite some time ... and now I get to meet the mind behind Qubic, THE driving force, the creative voice of reason in the sea of madness...NXTNEMUtopia...wait..

[Kazimir]

Firstly wouldn't this be an issue for BTC to ever be mainstream if you can't pay for things immediately in shops etc?

When will people ever learn before asking stupid questions... YOU CAN pay for things immediately in shops etc. Nobody EVER makes you wait for a confirmation when paying in a store.

Also I presume the confirmation time will take longer the bigger the difficulty?

The entire point of the difficulty is actually to keep the confirmation time at 10 minutes.

I think i've understood how it works correctly?

Nope.

[Come-from-Beyond]

Objection - relevancy. More of the same regurgitated verbal defecation that's blinding my ability to see through your fuzzy logic, if deduction can reason it as such.


I've been running v. 0.5.13 and its predecessors for quite some time ... and now I get to meet the mind behind Qubic, THE driving force, the creative voice of reason in the sea of madness...NXTNEMUtopia...wait..

Could you paraphrase, please? I don't know half of the words that you used and urban dictionary doesn't give meaningful translation.

PS: If English is not your mother tongue then feel free to use any other language.

[Come-from-Beyond]

The entire point of the difficulty is actually to keep the confirmation time at 10 minutes.

Confirmation time is 5 min in average. 10 minutes is the gap between blocks.

[BlackMarketKarma]

Objection - relevancy. More of the same regurgitated verbal defecation that's blinding my ability to see through your fuzzy logic, if deduction can reason it as such.


I've been running v. 0.5.13 and its predecessors for quite some time ... and now I get to meet the mind behind Qubic, THE driving force, the creative voice of reason in the sea of madness...NXTNEMUtopia...wait..

Could you paraphrase, please? I don't know half of the words that you used and urban dictionary doesn't give meaningful translation.

PS: If English is not your mother tongue then feel free to use any other language.

Paraphrase? Sure. You're a provocative cunt. 

[Come-from-Beyond]

Paraphrase? Sure. You're a provocative cunt. 

Haha, yeah! I got the legendary status for that!

[neurotypical]

The entire point of the difficulty is actually to keep the confirmation time at 10 minutes.

Confirmation time is 5 min in average. 10 minutes is the gap between blocks.

I still don't see how this is a problem. People pay with credit cards all the time, credit card operations aren't confirmed automatically but people don't seem bothered by it. I would trust a pending BTC transaction 1000 times more than a credit card one.

[Jace]

The entire point of the difficulty is actually to keep the confirmation time at 10 minutes.

Confirmation time is 5 min in average. 10 minutes is the gap between blocks.

Nope. The gap between two blocks is indeed 10 minutes in average. But the confirmation time for any random transaction is also 10 min in average. May seem non-intuitive, but hey, maths (and more specifically: exponential probability distribution).

[Jace]

Sorry if this has been asked before, i did search.

So I've sent some BTC to an address over 30mins ago and still not even 1 confirmation. Firstly wouldn't this be an issue for BTC to ever be mainstream if you can't pay for things immediately in shops etc?

Also I presume the confirmation time will take longer the bigger the difficulty?

I think i've understood how it works correctly?

yeah, unfortunately this is one of the biggest concerns or problems about payments being done in bitcoin, i think the only major things bitcoin is good right now is for a few people who are trading it to make money and the other thing is for sending large sums of money especially oversees.

You are mistaken, sir. I paid for my dinner last evening with bitcoins. I paid for my groceries this morning with bitcoins. And I just had lunch with friends, paid for - you guessed it, with bitcoins. I spend bitcoins on a daily basis in random shops and other brick-and-mortar businesses. Now how many of those do you think have EVER kept me waiting for even a single confirmation?

[Jace]

The only thing with the above is whilst credit cards may take that long to confirm I think the CC companies guarantee the transaction don't they?

Fuck, no! If only that were true.. No, credit cards are a frigging disaster for merchants and shops. Even up to 6 months after a transaction, it can be charged back and the merchant or shop owner always loses the money.

So in effect when you're paying for your coffee, as far as you're concerned the transaction is immediate.

Nope. When paying with credit card, the only thing "immediate" is the CC company saying "we just processed a payment, you'll probably end up receiving the money within a few days, but we can't tell for sure it won't be reversed until 6 months from now".

Where as if paying with BTC the company selling the coffee would have to bear the cost of an unconfirmed transaction going bad (just an example with the coffee of course).

Nope. This cost is effectively ZERO. Seriously, try it. Try and pay for a cup of coffee with Bitcoin, and then make the transaction "go bad".

If this was even remotely feasible to pull off (and I'm not talking some crazy theoretical scenario, but an actual real life situation, e.g. involving cups of coffee) nobody would be accepting Bitcoin, especially not in shops or other zero-confirmation situations. But guess what - they all are. And since the beginning of Bitcoin, this has resulted in exactly zero problems.

Like they'd see the transaction quite quickly but it might not do a single confirmation for sometime after.

Maybe this clarifies things:

Transaction time (the time it takes to process a payment)
Bitcoin: 1-2 sec
Credit card: 3-5 sec

Money arrival time (the time at which the merchant actually receives the money and can spend it)
Bitcoin: 1-2 sec
Credit card: several business days

Confirmation time (the time at which the merchant can be sure the payment won't be reversed)
Bitcoin: 10 minutes
Credit card: 6+ months

So, what was the problem with Bitcoin, again?

[Klestin]

OP is comparing the time it takes to make a storefront purchase with credit card against the time it takes to make a bank transfer with Bitcoin.  Apples to oranges, and I think he probably knows this.

A storefront merchant selling a coffee and accepting Bitcoin has no need to wait for confirmations.  With a proper transaction fee attached, there is no reason to expect this transaction to be reversed.  Executing a 0-confirmation double-spend is not as simple as some seem to believe.  Once that first transaction has propagated, the second will (in general) be denied, even with a higher transaction fee.  The reality is that it's not practical to attempt this for small purchases.

By comparison, the average storefront merchant accepting credit cards faces the fact that 1-3% of those charges will be reversed.  Worse yet, when one is reversed, he may also face additional fines.  All this on top of the 3%++ that they're paying for the privilege of accepting credit.

[Come-from-Beyond]

Nope. The gap between two blocks is indeed 10 minutes in average. But the confirmation time for any random transaction is also 10 min in average. May seem non-intuitive, but hey, maths (and more specifically: exponential probability distribution).

It indeed seems non-intuitive. Do you have the math ready up your sleeves?