Confirmation Time

[inBitweTrust]

Your data is wrong, already discussed. Validation happens within 5 sec, money can be spent in 20 minutes. http://www.rbinternational.com

His data is not wrong, you are just being argumentative and speaking past him.
There is a difference between banks and between credit cards and debit/bank cards.
His statements apply moreso to credit cards.
Thus:

Credit Cards-
Transaction time (the time it takes to process a payment)
Bitcoin: 1-2 sec
Credit card: 3-5 sec

Money arrival time (the time at which the merchant actually receives the money and can spend it)
Bitcoin: 1-2 sec
Credit card: several business days

Confirmation time (the time at which the merchant can be sure the payment won't be reversed)
Bitcoin: 10 minutes - 1 Hour
Credit card: 3 - 6+ months



Bank/debit cards-
Transaction time (the time it takes to process a payment)
Bitcoin: 1-2 sec
Bank card: 3-5 sec
Paypal -1-2 sec

Money arrival time (the time at which the merchant actually receives the money and can spend it)
Bitcoin: 1-2 sec
Bank card: ~2 days
Paypal - 1-2 sec

Confirmation time (the time at which the merchant can be sure the payment won't be reversed)
Bitcoin: 10 minutes - 1 Hour
Bank card:  6+ months as chargebacks can still occur and create a negative balance on your account
Paypal -  6+ months as chargebacks can still occur and create a negative balance on your account

Just because you can spend paypal  and certain debit card funds right away doesn't mean that those funds cannot be reversed at a later date and all your bank accounts and assets frozen. This happens all the time.

[1714139916]

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[calci]

Your data is wrong, already discussed. Validation happens within 5 sec, money can be spent in 20 minutes. http://www.rbinternational.com

His data is not wrong, you are just being argumentative and speaking past him.
There is a difference between banks and between credit cards and debit/bank cards.
His statements apply moreso to credit cards.
Thus:

Credit Cards-
Transaction time (the time it takes to process a payment)
Bitcoin: 1-2 sec
Credit card: 3-5 sec

Money arrival time (the time at which the merchant actually receives the money and can spend it)
Bitcoin: 1-2 sec
Credit card: several business days

Confirmation time (the time at which the merchant can be sure the payment won't be reversed)
Bitcoin: 10 minutes - 1 Hour
Credit card: 3 - 6+ months



Bank/debit cards-
Transaction time (the time it takes to process a payment)
Bitcoin: 1-2 sec
Bank card: 3-5 sec

Money arrival time (the time at which the merchant actually receives the money and can spend it)
Bitcoin: 1-2 sec
Bank card: ~2 days

Confirmation time (the time at which the merchant can be sure the payment won't be reversed)
Bitcoin: 10 minutes - 1 Hour
Bank card: 20minutes  to 6+ months as chargebacks can still occur and create a negative balance on your account

Nice analogy, but bitcoins are anytime more faster than other options like the credit card. I dont think confrimation times will eveer be a problem.

[Come-from-Beyond]

Just because you can spend paypal  and certain debit card funds right away doesn't mean that those funds cannot be reversed at a later date and all your bank accounts and assets frozen. This happens all the time.

Ok. You confirmed my position that bitcoiners don't play fair game by comparing Bitcoin to "credit" cards instead of "debit" ones. It's silly to compare BTC to "credit" which can be made out of thin air.

[inBitweTrust]

Ok. You confirmed my position that bitcoiners don't play fair game by comparing Bitcoin to "credit" cards instead of "debit" ones. It's silly to compare BTC to "credit" which can be made out of thin air.

All Digital fiat is made out of thin air and can get seized, reversed and revoked at anytime.
Are you assuming that debit card chargebacks do not happen?

[Come-from-Beyond]

All Digital fiat is made out of thin air and can get seized, reversed and revoked at anytime.
Are you assuming that debit card chargebacks do not happen?

I don't assume that. I just point to the fact that bitcoiners compare Bitcoin to low-end bank tech trying to look cool.

[inBitweTrust]

I don't assume that. I just point to the fact that bitcoiners compare Bitcoin to low-end bank tech trying to look cool.

It is a fair comparison for most bitcoiners as many are from the US and low end tech is normal there. Either way, the central point remains the same for debit cards and credit cards as chargebacks do occur with either and therefore the funds aren't technically confirmed for months. When you are able to spend the cash you are just given a conditional loan from your bank with the understanding it can be reversed.

[BlackMarketKarma]

Paraphrase? Sure. You're a provocative cunt. 

Haha, yeah! I got the legendary status for that!

Surely it was you, your ego, and your inability to call a spade a spade (in this instance a space is an eco-system which failed to comprehend initial distribution subsequently leading to a much less decentralized currency) ..the ladder of which helped the most, as legendary status is bequeathed upon those who were willing to ..what was it..provide BTC50 donation at the aim of generalized forum improvements etc? Meager sum at the time, laughable now, especially considering the progress in the improvement arena or lack thereof. You're good though, your station amongst the highest echelons of the NXT/crypto space make it so, presumably. In any regard, you're a provocative fuck and most of the time it's just because you choose to have the tenor of an arrogant prick.

[Come-from-Beyond]

In any regard, you're a provocative fuck and most of the time it's just because you choose to have the tenor of an arrogant prick.

Yes, I know this. BitcoinTrashTalk is the place where I improve my English by trolling trolls.

[Kazimir]

Your data is wrong, already discussed. Validation happens within 5 sec, money can be spent in 20 minutes. http://www.rbinternational.com

Sorry, sir, but I own and run several webshops, where I accept credit card payments through different platforms and payment providers. Not with any of them do I actually have the money (or the possibility to spend it) within 20 minutes. Not by far.

[Come-from-Beyond]

Sorry, sir, but I own and run several webshops, where I accept credit card payments through different platforms and payment providers. Not with any of them do I actually have the money (or the possibility to spend it) within 20 minutes. Not by far.

So, what are your numbers?

[Kazimir]

I don't assume that. I just point to the fact that bitcoiners compare Bitcoin to low-end bank tech trying to look cool.

Nobody's trying. It's just that currently, the vast majority of all online payments is being done through low-end bank tech. This simple practical fact determines what Bitcoin can or should be realistically compared against.

I understand that credit cards and debit cards are two very different things. But from a merchant's perspective, the practical differences are only marginal. And in either case, they lose in every possible aspect to Bitcoin by a mile.

For completeness and fair comparison, let's add paypal, wire transfer and cash money in there as well:

Transaction time (the time it takes to process a payment)
Bitcoin: 1-2 sec
Credit card: 3-5 sec
Debit card: 3-5 sec
Paypal: 3-5 sec
Wire transfer: one business day to one month (depending on involved banks and location)
Cash: 1-20 sec (depending on how fast you can count)

Money arrival time (the time at which the merchant actually receives the money and can spend it)
Bitcoin: same as transaction time (1-2 sec)
Credit card: several business days
Debit card: several business days
Paypal: same as transaction time (3-5 sec)
Wire transfer: same as transaction time (one business day to one month)
Cash: same as transaction time (1-20 sec)

Confirmation time (the time at which the merchant can be sure the payment won't be reversed)
Bitcoin: 10 minutes
Credit card: 6+ months
Debit card: typically 1~3 months with most banks
Paypal: 3+ months
Wire transfer: same as transaction time (one business day to one month)
Cash: same as transaction time (1-20 sec)

Winner: BITCOIN

[Kazimir]

Sorry, sir, but I own and run several webshops, where I accept credit card payments through different platforms and payment providers. Not with any of them do I actually have the money (or the possibility to spend it) within 20 minutes. Not by far.

So, what are your numbers?

Approximately € 20.000 and US $ 15.000 turnover per month, of which roughly 75% is done through credit cards. I'm getting paid out twice a week from the credit card payment processors, so I can typically spend the money in two or three business days. And chargebacks incidentally occur as long as 6 months after the purchase (and as a merchant, I always lose the money).

Now with Bitcoin (which unfortunately still only makes up for about 1% of my monthly turnover) I can spend the money immediately. Number of chargebacks: zero. Cost per month: zero. Cost per transaction: zero. Number of restrictions or regional limitations: zero. Fraud risk: zero. Volatility risk: zero.

Damn, I sure wish Bitcoin will replace that old fiat crap ASAP.

[Kazimir]

By the way, about this:

I don't assume that. I just point to the fact that bitcoiners compare Bitcoin to low-end bank tech trying to look cool.

Ok, what should we compare Bitcoin to, then?

[cshelswell]

Does this not depend on what country you are in too? In new Zealand when someone pays you the money is in there immediately. Also back when btc was $1000 I managed to get paid for over 10btc on local bitcoin's from a hacked account (I couldn't have know it was hacked) the bank still honoured the payment.

 I know that's not really about transaction time. But here it is pretty quick and once it's in the bank it's yours.

[Come-from-Beyond]

By the way, about this:

I don't assume that. I just point to the fact that bitcoiners compare Bitcoin to low-end bank tech trying to look cool.

Ok, what should we compare Bitcoin to, then?

I would compare it to my bank card. I already revealed the numbers - 5 sec for double-spending check and 20 min for withdrawal after paying to other person.

[Come-from-Beyond]

Does this not depend on what country you are in too? In new Zealand when someone pays you the money is in there immediately. Also back when btc was $1000 I managed to get paid for over 10btc on local bitcoin's from a hacked account (I couldn't have know it was hacked) the bank still honoured the payment.

 I know that's not really about transaction time. But here it is pretty quick and once it's in the bank it's yours.

Credit cards appeared in the USA, other countries got them after the tech improved. Maybe this explains why we get much better service.

[Dread Pirate Roberts]

wait not around 1 hours
maybe some network will support about it.

[resya]

compared to other coins, bitcoin is slower. 10 minutes on average for one transaction, just to confirm the coins were sent. but if it get compared to other payment methods as posted above (paypal, credit card, etc), bitcoin is a winner