[ANN] Bitcoinica Consultancy abandons customers. Bitcoinica to enter Liquidation

[MagicalTux]

Sure, that is the main reason why you (and others) try to prevent ZT to return the funds. Very logically

If Zhou was not the theif, then the funds are not his to return. He is not legally entitled to handle or transfer stolen goods and nor it seems is Murck. Don't try to bait me on logic. It's clear that you cannot understand the logic that for something to be legally legitimate it must have legal authority.

Logic and law do not mix well, but most of the time laws do make sense.

For example you do not need legal authority to be acting legally, you just need to act within the scope of the law.

For Patrick Murck, officially representing the owners of Bitcoinica LP, receiving goods that were stolen from Bitcoinica LP sounds actually fine, and is probably the best thing that could happen at that point.

The fact is returning funds to customers is not going to be made easy at all by the fact that part of the funds is missing, and the fact that active account data was apparently deleted by the hacker. The claim process is made so people can fill claims, but those claims then need to be reviewed, and processed. The process also usually includes selling any company property to attempt to reduce the missing part... this will take some time.

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[Bigpiggy01]

Thankfully, Mr. Murck stepped in as a licensed attorney to broker their receipt. He was subjected to a lot of hazing and invasion of privacy here for doing so.

For the 5th time: Under what legal authority is Murck able to receive and transfer stolen goods?.

As far as I can see, Patrick Murck is acting in contact with Tihan Seale, who is the only known individual known to represent the owners of Bitcoinica LP.

That gives him enough authority to recover whatever possessions that used to be in Bitcoinica's care when whoever stole these says he wants to return [part of] it.

Umm wasn't Tihan fired at one point by the "Wendon Group" ? In the leaked emails he is very much claiming to be so. In light of that I don't really see how you guys can take anything he says at face value.

[aq]

legal

You are so obsessed with the law, that it would be in your best interest to just quit Bitcoin. No really, fiat is your world. They even fabricate laws as they need. Leave Bitcoin, enter fiat. Otherwise you may even discover that bitcoins are used at silk road, another thing that is most probably not legal.

[Nefario]

If as many expect, the Intersango trio are eventually proven to be liable/culpable, it could be argued that the whole conference was sponsored by theives with stolen money.

BB.

This is rubbish, I've been responsible for the whole sponsorship side of the conference since day one, to say that stolen money was used for the conference is wrong in every way, unless you're calling me a thief.

[disclaimer201]

If as many expect, the Intersango trio are eventually proven to be liable/culpable, it could be argued that the whole conference was sponsored by theives with stolen money.

BB.

This is rubbish, I've been responsible for the whole sponsorship side of the conference since day one, to say that stolen money was used for the conference is wrong in every way, unless you're calling me a thief.

This is what you will get if you continue to work together with them, accept it as it is. It isn't even spreading FUD if people tell you it is best to cut all ties with Intersango, you don't want to have angry people show up to wash their dirty laundry right in the workshops.

[Nefario]

If as many expect, the Intersango trio are eventually proven to be liable/culpable, it could be argued that the whole conference was sponsored by theives with stolen money.

BB.

This is rubbish, I've been responsible for the whole sponsorship side of the conference since day one, to say that stolen money was used for the conference is wrong in every way, unless you're calling me a thief.

This is what you will get if you continue to work together with them, accept it as it is. It isn't even spreading FUD if people tell you it is best to cut all ties with Intersango, you don't want to have angry people show up to wash their dirty laundry right in the workshops.

Cutting ties is one thing, accusing me of being a thief is another.

[disclaimer201]

If as many expect, the Intersango trio are eventually proven to be liable/culpable, it could be argued that the whole conference was sponsored by theives with stolen money.

BB.

This is rubbish, I've been responsible for the whole sponsorship side of the conference since day one, to say that stolen money was used for the conference is wrong in every way, unless you're calling me a thief.

This is what you will get if you continue to work together with them, accept it as it is. It isn't even spreading FUD if people tell you it is best to cut all ties with Intersango, you don't want to have angry people show up to wash their dirty laundry right in the workshops.

Cutting ties is one thing, accusing me of being a thief is another.

As I understood it nobody made such an accusation!

[BTCurious]

As I understood it nobody made such an accusation!

Then read the quote you quoted, srsly -_-

it could be argued that the whole conference was sponsored by theives with stolen money.

I've been responsible for the whole sponsorship side of the conference since day one

[tseale]

Mr Seale, please identify Zhou Tong, would you? It spares us another 50 pages of ongoing speculation in 3 different threads. Thank you!

Zhou Tong is exactly who he says he is.

[disclaimer201]

Mr Seale, please identify Zhou Tong, would you? It spares us another 50 pages of ongoing speculation in 3 different threads. Thank you!

Zhou Tong is exactly who he says he is.

Good. Thank you.

[BitBuster]

You are so obsessed with the law, that it would be in your best interest to just quit Bitcoin. No really, fiat is your world. They even fabricate laws as they need. Leave Bitcoin, enter fiat. Otherwise you may even discover that bitcoins are used at silk road, another thing that is most probably not legal.

Personally, I couldn't care less if what Murck is doing is legal or not. However, with multiple law-enforcement investigations said to take place, the investigators may take a more keen interest in the legality of Murck's actions.

This is rubbish, I've been responsible for the whole sponsorship side of the conference since day one, to say that stolen money was used for the conference is wrong in every way, unless you're calling me a thief.

http://www.bitcoin2012.com/sponsorship Intersango is listed at the very top of the page as a sponsor. It's personnel are heavily implicated in a massive bitcoin theft. Therefore it is concievable that if their guilt is proven, stolen funds may have been used to pay for the sponsorship.

Cutting ties is one thing, accusing me of being a thief is another.

Which I was careful not to do, as you appear to be careful not to distance yourself and the conference from individuals at the centre of this controversy.

Zhou Tong is exactly who he says he is.

For the avoidance of doubt, please state which photograph shows Zhou Tong?


BB.

[rjk]

Zhou Tong is exactly who he says he is.

For the avoidance of doubt, please state which photograph shows Zhou Tong?

If he is "exactly who he says he is", then why wouldn't the pictures posted by himself not be of him? If you don't know which ones are which, just look at his posting history to find the correct ones.

[aq]

Mr Seale, please identify Zhou Tong, would you? It spares us another 50 pages of ongoing speculation in 3 different threads. Thank you!

Zhou Tong is exactly who he says he is.

One can already sense now, that Bruno will still not believe it.

[sarpar]

If as many expect, the Intersango trio are eventually proven to be liable/culpable, it could be argued that the whole conference was sponsored by theives with stolen money.

BB.

This is rubbish, I've been responsible for the whole sponsorship side of the conference since day one, to say that stolen money was used for the conference is wrong in every way, unless you're calling me a thief.

This is what you will get if you continue to work together with them, accept it as it is. It isn't even spreading FUD if people tell you it is best to cut all ties with Intersango, you don't want to have angry people show up to wash their dirty laundry right in the workshops.

Cutting ties is one thing, accusing me of being a thief is another.

Then please do so! There is only one way to regain trust in this community: bitcoiners finally have to start making those who scam and act irresponsibly with others funds outkast.
The total lack of moral values let you greedy folk do business with whomever comes along as long as you are yourself not affected by their wrongdoing.

Money is power - be wise and challenge the source and destination of your funds. Everything has an effect - use your power for the good.  (I can i.e. not explain the motivation of all those funding the pirate other than by greed )

I am not talking about karma when I warn you that relying on funding by these despicable subjects wont turn out well for you all. Look out for other sources - there is still time!

[sarpar]

Thankfully, Mr. Murck stepped in as a licensed attorney to broker their receipt. He was subjected to a lot of hazing and invasion of privacy here for doing so.

For the 5th time: Under what legal authority is Murck able to receive and transfer stolen goods?.

As far as I can see, Patrick Murck is acting in contact with Tihan Seale, who is the only known individual known to represent the owners of Bitcoinica LP.

That gives him enough authority to recover whatever possessions that used to be in Bitcoinica's care when whoever stole these says he wants to return [part of] it.

Umm wasn't Tihan fired at one point by the "Wendon Group" ? In the leaked emails he is very much claiming to be so. In light of that I don't really see how you guys can take anything he says at face value.

@Tihan: indeed clarification needed. Are you still acting on behalf of the Wendon Group?

[BitBuster]

If he is "exactly who he says he is", then why wouldn't the pictures posted by himself not be of him? If you don't know which ones are which, just look at his posting history to find the correct ones.

For the avoidance of doubt.

Having met Zhou, Tihan should be able to say/repost which photo is of him.
Without having to first contact Zhou on this forum or otherwise.


BB.

[Nefario]

This is rubbish, I've been responsible for the whole sponsorship side of the conference since day one, to say that stolen money was used for the conference is wrong in every way, unless you're calling me a thief.

http://www.bitcoin2012.com/sponsorship Intersango is listed at the very top of the page as a sponsor. It's personnel are heavily implicated in a massive bitcoin theft. Therefore it is concievable that if their guilt is proven, stolen funds may have been used to pay for the sponsorship.

BB.

They were sponsors since February when the planning for the conference began, before there was any involvement with bitcoinica.

There is no chance of any stolen funds being involved with the event.

[BitBuster]

So Intersango do not owe any funds for sponsorship at all? Regardless, you should refund their sponsorship money and remove them from the view/organisation of the conference. This is not a personal vendetta, just pragmatic action so that, whatever the legal outcome, the conference is not brought into disrepute as it has been so far and will continue to be otherwise.


BB.

[sarpar]

So Intersango do not owe any funds for sponsorship at all? Regardless, you should refund their sponsorship money and remove them from the view/organisation of the conference. This is not a personal vendetta, just pragmatic action so that, whatever the legal outcome, the conference is not brought into disrepute as it has been so far and will continue to be otherwise.


BB.

+1 how much funding would you need to replace them?

[disclaimer201]

If he is "exactly who he says he is", then why wouldn't the pictures posted by himself not be of him? If you don't know which ones are which, just look at his posting history to find the correct ones.

For the avoidance of doubt.

Having met Zhou, Tihan should be able to say/repost which photo is of him.
Without having to first contact Zhou on this forum or otherwise.


BB.

This is a non-issue now. Tihan didn't know the newly posted pictures and Zhou's pictures of himself were posted long ago. Only if you followed the story just recently would this be an issue. Now that Tihan says Zhou is who he says he is, namely a freshman student with an I-toy and a 1k physical gold bitcoin, I'm certain that's how it is. Look for other clues, Sherlocks.