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Author Topic: [ANN] Bitcoinica Consultancy abandons customers. Bitcoinica to enter Liquidation  (Read 54808 times)
tseale
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August 01, 2012, 07:30:08 PM
 #1

It is August 2012 and 80 days have passed since Bitcoinica was taken offline following the Rackspace hack. Many of you have followed developments since that time with interest and frustration. The company's investors and I have also been extremely disappointed.

Donald Norman, Patrick Strateman and Amir Taaki accepted responsibility for Bitcoinica on April 24 as Bitcoinica Consultancy and have retained the -only- legal authority to act on behalf of the company. At this time it appears they have abandoned their legal duty.

They now refuse to reply to communication, refuse to acknowledge their responsibility, refuse to resign voluntarily, and refuse to act. In particular they have refused to do anything to recover stolen funds, even where the required action is as simple as providing a payment address. This is now hindering the efforts of others to minimize loss to Bitcoinica's customers.

Clearly, this must end.

Acting in its capacity as creditor to Bitcoinica LP, the Wendon Group investment fund will appoint a receiver under New Zealand law. This has been an option of last resort which is now unavoidable. Under receivership, a licensed and insured specialist will replace the Consultancy as the designated authority. Upon satisfaction of secured creditor interests, the company will proceed to liquidation in which remaining funds are distributed. Without Consultancy cooperation, this is the only ready way forward.

Wendon Group intends to donate any funds it obtains via receivership in favor of Bitcoinica customers. Complete liquidation will likely take place over a matter of months.

While this is not the outcome any hoped for, it is certainly an improvement over the deadlock resulting from Donald, Patrick and Amir's untimely abandonment.

Many have suffered because of the Bitcoinica disaster. Everyone is right to be upset. Since no one in charge has seen fit to offer an apology, let it be me instead. To all those affected, I'm very sorry.


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August 01, 2012, 07:32:22 PM
 #2

What is your position/job/role in this affair, Mr. Seale?
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August 01, 2012, 07:33:36 PM
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Time to rigorously boycott Intersango and the "Bitcoin Conference" then?


BB.
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August 01, 2012, 07:38:47 PM
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So you didn't get fired?

I hope this incident taught you not to store customers fund in a hot wallet and use 2 factor authentication.

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August 01, 2012, 07:39:03 PM
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So what does this mean exactly?  What about the funds transferred to the lawyer?
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August 01, 2012, 07:40:51 PM
 #6

Will customers get a payout, or will the funds being donated in favor of the customers go to some other organization, such as the Bitcoin foundation?

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August 01, 2012, 07:47:54 PM
 #7

Time to rigorously boycott Intersango and the "Bitcoin Conference" then?


BB.

That's a no-brainer. Of course you abandon both. Community has already split because of this ordeal.

_______________________________________________________________________________ ___________________
I am owed 44.21 Bitcoins by Bitcoinica. Please compensate or donate here: 1ET2ps7BRrZnDeq7bVNc8bS9ZmgN8DxUXy

Thank you.
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August 01, 2012, 07:50:14 PM
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What is your position in this affair, Mr. Seale?

I am an investment scout for Wendon Group. Part of my role is to monitor past investments.

I facilitated Bitcoinica Consultancy's take-over of Bitcoinica and made my knowledge of the business available to them.

Bitcoinica Consultancy had exclusive responsibility for Bitcoinica's daily operations in all respects, including hot wallet management.
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August 01, 2012, 07:54:19 PM
 #9

It would be very sad if that happens. The Conference should not be about Bitcoinica, Intersango, or any other particular player. It is about bringing the community together, listening to great speakers and hear about new ideas. Just take a look at the confirmed speaker list. I am definitely coming and it will be a great event-no matter who organizes it.
Time to rigorously boycott Intersango and the "Bitcoin Conference" then?
BB.
That's a no-brainer. Of course you abandon both. Community has already split because of this ordeal.
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August 01, 2012, 07:54:50 PM
Last edit: August 01, 2012, 08:12:44 PM by Mike Jones
 #10

What is your position in this affair, Mr. Seale?

I am an investment scout for Wendon Group and other funds. Part of my role is to monitor past investments.

I facilitated Bitcoinica Consultancy's take-over of Bitcoinica and made my knowledge of the business available to them.

Bitcoinica Consultancy had exclusive responsibility for Bitcoinica's daily operations in all respects, including hot wallet management.

I'd like to thank your company for taking the initiative then. Give my compliments to the chief.
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August 01, 2012, 08:00:04 PM
 #11

@Tihan
Where I am from delayed filing of insolvency is a criminal act. Will you as creditor conduct a report to law enforcement for us?

@All
The consultancy team failed and harmed a large fraction of the Bitcoin community. I ask you all to boycott all their ongoing ventures e.g. Intersango, the London Bitcoin conference, personal trades, open source projects etc.

I openly boycott the Bitcoinica Consultancy team or Intersango: Donald Norman, Patrick Strateman and Amir Taaki
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August 01, 2012, 08:03:17 PM
 #12

Tihan Seale, would you be so kind as to give this community a detail online of what transpired at that hotel lobby between you and Zhou Tong, aka, Kevin Lim, when the handover of Bitcoinica occurred?

~Bruno~
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August 01, 2012, 08:05:04 PM
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Bitcoinica Consultancy had exclusive responsibility for Bitcoinica's daily operations in all respects, including hot wallet management.

Don't care.

Whoever hold the funds is responsible for it, period. I don't care if you didn't talk to or wasn't informed by the company. If you're messing around with a startup in a startup currency, you should at least understand what the fuck you're doing, including knowing how to reasonably secure this newfanged internet money.

At least you're willing to take responsiblity and do things that the bitcoinica consultancy refuse to do so that we can put this fiasco behind us.




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August 01, 2012, 08:10:23 PM
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@All
The consultancy team failed and harmed a large fraction of the Bitcoin community. I ask you all to boycott all their ongoing ventures e.g. Intersango, the London Bitcoin conference, personal trades, open source projects etc.

The bitcoin team isn't going to simply oppose their source code contribution to the project. Doing so is quite self-harming. Given that the conference is a big chance for the bitcoin community to get together and build business tie and relationship, so to deny going there is self harming.

Intersango is a bitcoin exchange among many, so boycotting it doesn't cause much self-harm. We just use mtgox instead.

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August 01, 2012, 08:12:40 PM
 #15

The short version is that:

Amir, Patrick and Donald of Intersango have all made this problem MUCH MUCH WORSE by refusing to act or even reply to emails.
Because of those three, everyone who had money in Bitcoinca will receive back less money than they would have, had they been cooperative.


They should be ashamed.

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August 01, 2012, 08:14:42 PM
 #16

The short version is that:

Amir, Patrick and Donald of Intersango have all made this problem MUCH MUCH WORSE by refusing to act or even reply to emails.
Because of those three, everyone who had money in Bitcoinca will receive back less money than they would have, had they been cooperative.


They should be ashamed.



I don't understand why this has to be the case, I really don't.  It's like nevermind the mistakes they or zhou made.  They went and took this whole "moral high ground" stance, and now everyone is likely getting fucked.

Also - how the liquidator handles BTC assets is going to be interesting, likely in a way that doesn't benefit any of us.

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August 01, 2012, 08:17:29 PM
 #17

Wendon Group intends to donate any funds it obtains via receivership in favor of Bitcoinica customers.

Thank you for acting with integrity.

Please make sure the reimbursement database managed by the Bitcoin Consultancy guys is secured so the liquidator has records of verified customers and previous payouts. We really don't need another wipe at this point.
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August 01, 2012, 08:21:11 PM
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@Tihan
Where I am from delayed filing of insolvency is a criminal act. Will you as creditor conduct a report to law enforcement for us?

There will be legal action against Consultancy members for applicable acts of civil and criminal wrongdoing.
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August 01, 2012, 08:22:37 PM
 #19

@Tihan
Where I am from delayed filing of insolvency is a criminal act. Will you as creditor conduct a report to law enforcement for us?

There will be legal action against Consultancy members for applicable acts of civil and criminal wrongdoing.


I doubt that.  People don't even want legal action against the thief that started all this. 

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August 01, 2012, 08:26:17 PM
 #20

Tihan Seales the deal, as always.
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August 01, 2012, 08:32:28 PM
 #21

Tihan Seales the deal, as always.
Oh god, what a terrible pun.

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August 01, 2012, 08:33:14 PM
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Tihan Seales the deal, as always.
Oh god, what a terrible pun.
Fuck, I knew it would turn out cheesy as hell.
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August 01, 2012, 08:33:46 PM
 #23

is their a estimate of the % of coins left over after all the hacking?
what have they done with the funds they still have, what do they plan to do with them?
at first it seemed like they were trying to find out who should get what, are they still trying to do that?

are these  the questions they refuse to answer?


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August 01, 2012, 08:47:38 PM
 #24

is their a estimate of the % of coins left over after all the hacking?
what have they done with the funds they still have, what do they plan to do with them?
at first it seemed like they were trying to find out who should get what, are they still trying to do that?

are these  the questions they refuse to answer?



Read OP post. Bitcoinica GP is doing shit for the past weeks now. They just packed their stuff and left. No word, no more refunds, nothing. One is organizing a conference in London for rich BTC holders that like to be close to banksters, and the others have "important" business trips to make to Las Vegas to play computer games with other geeks. Meanwhile in a secret room, even the work for their exchange has come to a halt.
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August 01, 2012, 09:07:58 PM
 #25

Tihan,

How does this effect the efforts by Mt Gox, AurumXChange, et al. to recover the funds from Zhou (or his mysterious friend as the case may be?)

Are you in communication with or actively working with those parties on the funds recovery?
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August 01, 2012, 09:16:27 PM
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Read OP post. Bitcoinica GP is doing shit for the past weeks now. They just packed their stuff and left. No word, no more refunds, nothing. One is organizing a conference in London for rich BTC holders that like to be close to banksters, and the others have "important" business trips to make to Las Vegas to play computer games with other geeks. Meanwhile in a secret room, even the work for their exchange has come to a halt.

But no doubt they took generous severance payments for themselves out of the Bitcoinica user deposits before they left.

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August 01, 2012, 09:18:55 PM
 #27

@All
The consultancy team failed and harmed a large fraction of the Bitcoin community. I ask you all to boycott all their ongoing ventures e.g. Intersango, the London Bitcoin conference, personal trades, open source projects etc.
+1

And the reason is simple, While they are doing this they aren't doing what they should be doing.

Honestly, every time I see someone asking for support about Intersango exchange I die a little inside, Being aware of the fiasco, having money stored there and then ask for support ??
(I can understand if it's a withdrawal issue)

Communicating to them about anything else than Bitcoinica resolution show a lack of support to Bitcoinica users.

Attending, speaking or benefiting in anyway from the conference organized by Amir show the same lack of respect.
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August 01, 2012, 09:23:05 PM
 #28

I avoid Intersango and tell people to avoid it. But the conference… no, I want to go to the conference. Not for the hosts, but for the speakers, and for meeting the attendees. A large gettogether simply doesn't happen every day!

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August 01, 2012, 09:24:29 PM
 #29

This thread is confirmation that Patrick, Donald and Amir all need to be branded as scammers. Their behavior through all of this shows that they should not be trusted with anyone's money or information from this point forward. I also think civil proceedings should begin against them with any legal investigations into their criminal responsibility taking place concurrently. They have abandoned their company with a big middle finger to all their creditors and I think it's time to take some action against them.
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August 01, 2012, 09:25:20 PM
 #30

Rackspace?  I thought it was Linode?
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August 01, 2012, 09:26:19 PM
 #31

I avoid Intersango and tell people to avoid it. But the conference… no, I want to go to the conference. Not for the hosts, but for the speakers, and for meeting the attendees. A large gettogether simply doesn't happen every day!
Then at least kick each of them in their little ball-sack when you see them.

I openly boycott the Bitcoinica Consultancy team or Intersango: Donald Norman, Patrick Strateman and Amir Taaki
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August 01, 2012, 09:28:58 PM
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Rackspace?  I thought it was Linode?
Linode was one hack, Rackspace was another.

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August 01, 2012, 09:32:32 PM
 #33

Rackspace?  I thought it was Linode?
Linode was one hack, Rackspace was another.
Wow.. They moved datacenters and everything.. Man, they should have fixed the site after the first hack, but too late now to give advice.

3 big hacks, in Canada we call that a hat-trick!  hack-trick?
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August 01, 2012, 09:42:11 PM
Last edit: August 01, 2012, 11:40:48 PM by augustocroppo
 #34

Donald Norman, Patrick Strateman and Amir Taaki accepted responsibility for Bitcoinica on April 24 as Bitcoinica Consultancy and have retained the -only- legal authority to act on behalf of the company. At this time it appears they have abandoned their legal duty.

This is the same Amir Taaki which gave a speech at 27th July 2012 in the FISL?

 Cool

http://www.techtudo.com.br/noticias/noticia/2012/07/desenvolvedor-do-bitcoin-fala-sobre-moeda-digital-que-dispensa-taxas.html

I just read the above news few minutes ago and I am surprised.

http://softwarelivre.org/fisl13

So, while the shit hit the fan he was enjoying the beautiful south Brazilian girls and landscape?

Yeah!

[link removed]


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August 01, 2012, 09:46:43 PM
 #35

NSFW on that last link, if your safesearch is off.

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August 01, 2012, 09:49:35 PM
 #36

This thread is confirmation that Patrick, Donald and Amir all need to be branded as scammers. Their behavior through all of this shows that they should not be trusted with anyone's money or information from this point forward. I also think civil proceedings should begin against them with any legal investigations into their criminal responsibility taking place concurrently. They have abandoned their company with a big middle finger to all their creditors and I think it's time to take some action against them.

Just to add to what Tihan has said so far, a liquidator has the capacity and the obligation to report financial offences by the principals for further investigation.  Although privately appointed liquidators do tend to be less aggressive regarding things like claw back, they have exactly the same powers and responsibilities as the Official Assignee and must distribute the liquidated assets in the manner laid down by law.


All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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August 01, 2012, 09:56:24 PM
 #37

It is August 2012 and 80 days have passed since Bitcoinica was taken offline following the Rackspace hack. Many of you have followed developments since that time with interest and frustration. The company's investors and I have also been extremely disappointed.

Donald Norman, Patrick Strateman and Amir Taaki accepted responsibility for Bitcoinica on April 24 as Bitcoinica Consultancy and have retained the -only- legal authority to act on behalf of the company. At this time it appears they have abandoned their legal duty.

They now refuse to reply to communication, refuse to acknowledge their responsibility, refuse to resign voluntarily, and refuse to act. In particular they have refused to do anything to recover stolen funds, even where the required action is as simple as providing a payment address. This is now hindering the efforts of others to minimize loss to Bitcoinica's customers.

Clearly, this must end.

Acting in its capacity as creditor to Bitcoinica LP, the Wendon Group investment fund will appoint a receiver under New Zealand law. This has been an option of last resort which is now unavoidable. Under receivership, a licensed and insured specialist will replace the Consultancy as the designated authority. Upon satisfaction of secured creditor interests, the company will proceed to liquidation in which remaining funds are distributed. Without Consultancy cooperation, this is the only ready way forward.

Wendon Group intends to donate any funds it obtains via receivership in favor of Bitcoinica customers. Complete liquidation will likely take place over a matter of months.

While this is not the outcome any hoped for, it is certainly an improvement over the deadlock resulting from Donald, Patrick and Amir's untimely abandonment.

Many have suffered because of the Bitcoinica disaster. Everyone is right to be upset. Since no one in charge has seen fit to offer an apology, let it be me instead. To all those affected, I'm very sorry.


Tihan Seale


Thanks for the update !

I can not say I am happy about the bitcoinica consultancy as well.

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August 01, 2012, 09:58:07 PM
 #38

Wendon Group intends to donate any funds it obtains via receivership in favor of Bitcoinica customers.

Thank you for acting with integrity.

Please make sure the reimbursement database managed by the Bitcoin Consultancy guys is secured so the liquidator has records of verified customers and previous payouts. We really don't need another wipe at this point.
That is very gracious! - so in other words you voluntarily make your debt subordinate to the customers'? Or will you after reception of funds distribute them in your sole discretion?

Thank you again for acting so professional!

I openly boycott the Bitcoinica Consultancy team or Intersango: Donald Norman, Patrick Strateman and Amir Taaki
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August 01, 2012, 10:01:28 PM
 #39

@Tihan
Where I am from delayed filing of insolvency is a criminal act. Will you as creditor conduct a report to law enforcement for us?

There will be legal action against Consultancy members for applicable acts of civil and criminal wrongdoing.


Yeah I strongly support that.
I also think that you should attack the mysterious thief if there is any amount missing from the assets that were stolen (and he should be quite lucky that no charges are brought but at this point recovering the funds matter most to most people)

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August 01, 2012, 10:15:25 PM
 #40

Or will you after reception of funds distribute them in your sole discretion?

Thank you again for acting so professional!

It sounds like Wendon is securing its interest as a secured creditor via receivership and will then donate the funds it receives to the liquidator of Bitcoinica LP for distribution according to the process laid down by law.  

Tihan, as shares in Intersango are part of Wendon's interest in Bitcoinica LP, will those be liquidated and the proceeds made available to the liquidator?

Also, are you able to shed any light on whether or not Wendon is Bitcoinica LP's only secured creditor?

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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August 01, 2012, 11:02:26 PM
 #41

So creditor means customer funds being returned?

Bitcoinica still has not given me 50% of my claim of 600 BTC
INTERSANGO can go down with bitcoinica for abandoning customers
Alberto Armandi is a SCAMMER
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August 01, 2012, 11:15:06 PM
 #42

So creditor means customer funds being returned?

Creditors are the people who are owed money. Insolvency law divides creditors into various groups and assigns those groups a priority for repayment.  Sometimes unsecured creditors receive only a few cents on the dollar from liquidation or even nothing at all.  Based on the information we have at the moment (and we don't have any information about other creditors who may have claims), it's likely that Bitcoinica users will receive some distribution - it's not possible to predict the % they'll receive because that is determined towards the end of the liquidation process.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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August 01, 2012, 11:17:56 PM
 #43

So creditor means customer funds being returned?
- Depends how much assets can be recovered (Zhou plays a big role here)
- Depends how much other debt is outstanding (The Liquidation process is costly)
- Depends how the Liquidator can legally deal with BTC and recognizes it as debt (Payout in Fiat or BTC)
- Depends whether the claim requests are still available
- Depends how much of customer database reconstruction has been done so far (since the Consultancy is out of the game)
- Depends what other legal problems evolve (Money laundering f.i. see "Maria")

I openly boycott the Bitcoinica Consultancy team or Intersango: Donald Norman, Patrick Strateman and Amir Taaki
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August 01, 2012, 11:19:30 PM
 #44

Creditors are the people who are owed money. Insolvency law divides creditors into various groups and assigns those groups a priority for repayment.  Sometimes unsecured creditors receive only a few cents on the dollar from liquidation or even nothing at all.  Based on the information we have at the moment (and we don't have any information about other creditors who may have claims), it's likely that Bitcoinica users will receive some distribution - it's not possible to predict the % they'll receive because that is determined towards the end of the liquidation process.

Bitcoinica has hopefully little to none other liabilities, which would limit the process to returning funds to bitcoinica users.
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August 01, 2012, 11:24:57 PM
 #45

Given that shit already hit the fan you guys might as well know that Donald will be enjoying the Portuguese sun for a month.
Given this whole mess he really should be needing some vacations Roll Eyes
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August 01, 2012, 11:51:43 PM
 #46

Given that shit already hit the fan you guys might as well know that Donald will be enjoying the Portuguese sun for a month.

Given this whole mess he really should be needing some vacations Roll Eyes
Do you know this to be the case or just joking? Inference that he is jetting off on Bitcoinica customer's money?


BB.
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August 01, 2012, 11:54:25 PM
 #47

Given that shit already hit the fan you guys might as well know that Donald will be enjoying the Portuguese sun for a month.

Given this whole mess he really should be needing some vacations Roll Eyes
Do you know this to be the case or just joking? Inference that he is jetting off on Bitcoinica customer's money?


BB.

I'm serious.
He contacted me to hook him up with the Lisbon bitcoin scene.
No, I don't live in Lisbon.
Some interested parties were made aware of this fact, I just didn't relay it in the forums.
Given this statement by Tihan I don't see the point on keeping it a secret anymore.

BTW, I'm not infering that he's spending Bitcoinica's customers money. Just that he decided to take some time off when he should be working his ass off to make all of you whole after this mess.
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August 01, 2012, 11:57:52 PM
Last edit: August 02, 2012, 12:15:02 AM by repentance
 #48

Creditors are the people who are owed money. Insolvency law divides creditors into various groups and assigns those groups a priority for repayment.  Sometimes unsecured creditors receive only a few cents on the dollar from liquidation or even nothing at all.  Based on the information we have at the moment (and we don't have any information about other creditors who may have claims), it's likely that Bitcoinica users will receive some distribution - it's not possible to predict the % they'll receive because that is determined towards the end of the liquidation process.

Bitcoinica has hopefully little to none other liabilities, which would limit the process to returning funds to bitcoinica users.


Hopefully the liquidation is also relatively uncomplicated and doesn't require the liquidator to investigate many irregularities.  The more complicated the liquidation is, the longer it will take for users to be paid and the less they'll receive.

It's probably worth pointing out to users that a liquidator is bound to consider options which would maximise the return to creditors such as rescue packages.  Although the Bitcoinica brand seems irrevocably damaged right now, there may be someone willing to purchase Bitcoinica LP lock, stock and barrel for a firesale price.

The liquidator also determines whether the directors have any personal liability in respect of the insolvency.


All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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August 02, 2012, 12:03:06 AM
 #49

Someone who is signed up to the conf should start a poll and thread so the community acts together in attendance or boycott.  Im not going but personally i say why let these lusers stop a great conf?  And you all will lose even more $ in broken reservations, etc?  Start the boycott after the conf but somebody better make sure all reservations are real (and paid) etc...
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August 02, 2012, 12:10:03 AM
 #50

Someone who is signed up to the conf should start a poll and thread so the community acts together in attendance or boycott.  Im not going but personally i say why let these lusers stop a great conf?  And you all will lose even more $ in broken reservations, etc?  Start the boycott after the conf but somebody better make sure all reservations are real (and paid) etc...

From what's been posted so far, less than 100 tickets out of 700 have been sold to date.


All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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August 02, 2012, 12:28:06 AM
 #51

Quick update. The returned Bitcoins are being moved to an account where the receiver can consolidate funds. Transaction details here: http://blockchain.info/address/1LH6Q1ZXvdQepz8hfQd7kx6XHrggz1VkzD.

More updates to come.

Thanks,
Patrick
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August 02, 2012, 12:34:13 AM
 #52

Wendon Group intends to donate any funds it obtains via receivership in favor of Bitcoinica customers.

Thank you for acting with integrity.

Please make sure the reimbursement database managed by the Bitcoin Consultancy guys is secured so the liquidator has records of verified customers and previous payouts. We really don't need another wipe at this point.

+1

Tihan,

How does this effect the efforts by Mt Gox, AurumXChange, et al. to recover the funds from Zhou (or his mysterious friend as the case may be?)

Are you in communication with or actively working with those parties on the funds recovery?

Same question.

Also, do you have any idea how the liquidation process will handle BTC ?

Anyway, thanks for your actions (and everyone else involved). It's time to end this.
And about the London Conference, I understand those who will go there. It's more important that this. But I truly hope you'll put pressure on the Bicoinica Consultancy to act like grown up and help the liquidation process. It's just mind blowing how bad they handled the situation. This shouldn't be accepted by our community.

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August 02, 2012, 12:39:55 AM
 #53

But I truly hope you'll put pressure on the Bicoinica Consultancy to act like grown up and help the liquidation process. It's just mind blowing how bad they handled the situation. This shouldn't be accepted by our community.

They are legally obliged to co-operate with the liquidator and failing to do so could end up in them being exposed to personal liability.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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August 02, 2012, 12:49:09 AM
 #54

Acting in its capacity as creditor to Bitcoinica LP, the Wendon Group investment fund will appoint a receiver under New Zealand law.

I have been kind of waiting and hoping for this.  I am not a Claimant so I could take no direct action myself but I applaud your actions. (Even though I think you may get next to nothing back)

What I am really (and selfishly) hoping for is that it will give a legal test case and President of the status of Bitcoin in New Zealand Law .  It will probably have to go all the way to the High Court to do it, and New Zealand is probably the only country in the world you can do it in at the moment (I wont bore you with New Zealand Law and current event's  Roll Eyes ) .

From there it is a simple step to Commonwealth Law because of the quirks of how New Zealand law works and from there to International Law will probably have to involve another president case (or possibly even the same one).

I humbly suggest everyone get behind this bandwagon.
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August 02, 2012, 01:02:55 AM
 #55

How does this effect the efforts by Mt Gox, AurumXChange, et al. to recover the funds from Zhou (or his mysterious friend as the case may be?)

This should remove roadblocks to recovering additional funds.

When the hacker was ready to return 15,000 BTC, that transaction was delayed for days because the Consultancy would not provide a receiving address.

Thankfully, Mr. Murck stepped in as a licensed attorney to broker their receipt. He was subjected to a lot of hazing and invasion of privacy here for doing so. Without him, the coins might never have been recovered.

Those funds and any additional recovered funds will be placed under control of a receiver. This is a formal legal process that will allow Mt Gox et al to release funds to the receiver for distribution.
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August 02, 2012, 01:30:36 AM
Last edit: August 02, 2012, 01:55:53 AM by repentance
 #56

Acting in its capacity as creditor to Bitcoinica LP, the Wendon Group investment fund will appoint a receiver under New Zealand law.

I have been kind of waiting and hoping for this.  I am not a Claimant so I could take no direct action myself but I applaud your actions. (Even though I think you may get next to nothing back)

What I am really (and selfishly) hoping for is that it will give a legal test case and President of the status of Bitcoin in New Zealand Law .  It will probably have to go all the way to the High Court to do it, and New Zealand is probably the only country in the world you can do it in at the moment (I wont bore you with New Zealand Law and current event's  Roll Eyes ) .

From there it is a simple step to Commonwealth Law because of the quirks of how New Zealand law works and from there to International Law will probably have to involve another president case (or possibly even the same one).

I humbly suggest everyone get behind this bandwagon.

Liquidation won't necessarily lead to the nature of Bitcoin being legally determined.  A liquidator is bound to realise any assets but they don't need to decide whether it's a currency, a commodity, or something else entirely.  That particular issue would most likely arise if creditors owed USD asserted that those who were owed Bitcoin only had no valid legal claim.  That seems extremely unlikely to happen.  The most likely scenario is that all of the Bitcoins over which the liquidator takes control will be sold and then the money from that sale will be combined with the currency on hand to meet the claims of creditors.  

Zhou maintained that Bitcoinica was a platform allowing users to trade contracts for difference rather than Bitcoins.  I'm not sure whether this will have any implications for the liquidation process but I doubt this is the first NZ liquidation in which CFD have been a feature.

If any creditors are unhappy with the liquidator's decisions or actions then the High Court is where any challenges must be made.

Soon after the liquidator is appointed and takes control of Bitcoinica's assets, creditors will receive a report which outlines the assets and liabilities of Bitcoinica, the proposed liquidation plan and an estimated date for completion of the liquidation process.  While it's likely that those appointing the liquidator will choose someone they believe will follow the original payout process for returning user funds which was already under way, liquidators don't have unlimited discretion and creditors can petition to have the appointed liquidator replaced by either another private liquidator or the Official Assignee.  New Zealand law allows for those who have assisted in securing/recovering assets for the benefit of creditors to have their costs reimbursed by the liquidator as a preferential claim in addition to their total unsecured debt being granted preferential status. 

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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August 02, 2012, 01:51:08 AM
 #57

Chaos, when will it end?
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August 02, 2012, 01:58:21 AM
 #58

True, most liquidation's in New Zealand are handled outside of the courts (apart from a rubber stamp) unless there is some sort of contention, what I am interested in is if it gets picked up or referred to the SFO (Serious Fraud Office).  The criteria is ;-

* There are multiple victims (usually investors) of the suspected fraud
* The sum of money lost exceeds $2,000,000
* The alleged criminal transactions have significant legal or financial complexity beyond the resources of most other law enforcement agencies.
[ source: http://www.sfo.govt.nz/what-is-serious-fraud ]

Like I said, I am being selfish, it would probably mean that it will be all gone by the end of the process.  It would be good if we got some sort of ruling as to the legal aspects of bitcoin's and digital currency's in general.
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August 02, 2012, 02:15:52 AM
 #59

True, most liquidation's in New Zealand are handled outside of the courts (apart from a rubber stamp) unless there is some sort of contention, what I am interested in is if it gets picked up or referred to the SFO (Serious Fraud Office).  The criteria is ;-

* There are multiple victims (usually investors) of the suspected fraud
* The sum of money lost exceeds $2,000,000
* The alleged criminal transactions have significant legal or financial complexity beyond the resources of most other law enforcement agencies.
[ source: http://www.sfo.govt.nz/what-is-serious-fraud ]

Like I said, I am being selfish, it would probably mean that it will be all gone by the end of the process.  It would be good if we got some sort of ruling as to the legal aspects of bitcoin's and digital currency's in general.

As far as we know, users are owed a total of just over $1 million dollars.  It's also important to remember that it was the investors who brought the limited partner on board, too - their investment preceded the involvement of the general partners so they can't claim that the nature of their investment or the true financial state of Bitcoinica was hidden from them by the general partner.

I do think that there'll eventually be a Bitcoin-related fraud case.  I just think that if emerges from this liquidation then it will relate to events which occurred prior to Bitcoinica Consultancy assuming responsibility for Bitcoinica LP on 24 April.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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August 02, 2012, 02:22:45 AM
Last edit: August 02, 2012, 02:36:47 AM by EnergyVampire
 #60

Hmm.... I was under the impression that Intersango or Bitcoin Consultancy LLC was only a shareholder of Bitcoinica?

Honestly, it all sounds like Intersango got scammed along with the Bitcoinica customers!!!

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August 02, 2012, 02:30:26 AM
 #61

Hmm.... I was under the impression that Intersango or Bitcoin Consultancy LLC was only a shareholder of Bitcoinica?

Honestly, it all sounds like Intersango got scammed!!!

According to the exchange of shares and interest agreement leaked which was leaked, Amir, Patrick and Donald obtained a combined interest of 25% in Bitcoinica LP in exchange for Wendon receiving 250 shares (out of 1000 uncalled shares which were issued as part of the deal) in Intersango.  We don't know whether they contributed any capital to the partnership, but general partners very often don't or contribute only a token amount.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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August 02, 2012, 02:40:55 AM
Last edit: August 02, 2012, 03:19:13 AM by EnergyVampire
 #62

Hmm.... I was under the impression that Intersango or Bitcoin Consultancy LLC was only a shareholder of Bitcoinica?

Honestly, it all sounds like Intersango got scammed!!!

According to the exchange of shares and interest agreement leaked which was leaked, Amir, Patrick and Donald obtained a combined interest of 25% in Bitcoinica LP in exchange for Wendon receiving 250 shares (out of 1000 uncalled shares which were issued as part of the deal) in Intersango.  We don't know whether they contributed any capital to the partnership, but general partners very often don't or contribute only a token amount.

LOL, so not only did Bitcoin Consultancy LLC get scammed they also lost 250 shares of Intersango Ltd? Did they at least get a reach around?  Cheesy


This whole mess is even more interesting than the Tradehill-Dwolla fraud.

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August 02, 2012, 02:48:08 AM
 #63

Tihan-
So, will you be requesting funds back from those who got paid out 100% of their claims so that everyone will get an equal proportion back?  And is it true that you had a hand in paying out 100% to a select group?

19F6veduCZcudwXuWoVosjmzziQz4EhBPS
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August 02, 2012, 02:55:00 AM
 #64

The bitcoinica domain name auction should be interesting.

Digital Gold for Gamblers and True Believers
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August 02, 2012, 03:10:32 AM
Last edit: August 02, 2012, 03:24:26 AM by repentance
 #65

Tihan-
So, will you be requesting funds back from those who got paid out 100% of their claims so that everyone will get an equal proportion back?  And is it true that you had a hand in paying out 100% to a select group?

Those kinds of decisions are up to the liquidator.  It's not clear from the leaked documents whether those who received 100% payments received the whole amount from Bitcoinica assets or whether Tihan paid part of their claim personally.  It's also not clear whether those who will become entitled to have their claims treated as preferential (which is a class separate from secured creditors but which ranks higher than unsecured creditors) are going to waive their right to receive 100% of their claim in addition to any costs they've incurred in recovering/protecting assets.  Those creditors might wish to make a statement in respect of that.

It's important to remember that a receiver and a liquidator have different obligations and that it's totally legal (and quite usual) for a receiver to recover only sufficient assets to pay secured creditors and then turn the remainder of the process and any surplus assets over to a liquidator.  Receivers are not legally obligated to deal with the interests of unsecured creditors.

Quote
The bitcoinica domain name auction should be interesting.

Bitcoinica LP might not own the domain.  They may have only had a conditional right to use it in the same way that Trade Hill had a conditional right to use the 3 domains for which it traded equity.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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August 02, 2012, 03:16:41 AM
 #66

Allow me to re-ask my previous question, but from a different tangent.

Tihan Seale--Will you go on record stating who was the guy you met in the Chimelong Hotel (Guangzhou) lobby this past February? Which one of the two images below did the guy you met resemble the most? Also, please let the community know that you conducted due diligence researching exactly who is "Zhou Tong" prior to the transferring of payola funds to said previous owner of Bitcoinica, or was it standard operating procedure to pay any Asian boy who simply claimed he built the Bitconica site, with the hope that you got rucky and tipped the right boy.

~Bruno~

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August 02, 2012, 03:19:03 AM
 #67

Tihan-
So, will you be requesting funds back from those who got paid out 100% of their claims so that everyone will get an equal proportion back?  And is it true that you had a hand in paying out 100% to a select group?

Please understand that I have no authority over the payout process past, present or future.

I'm only updating the community on the actions initiated by the investment group to move that process out of the hands of the Consultancy and into the hands of a legally appointed receiver.
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August 02, 2012, 03:24:33 AM
 #68

Bitcoinica funds moving forward:

19XTyevts1R1UbJPTv6JiuTW69R6ULXuF7        6,778.37593457 BTC
1KTBQwKT1V2w1RZXtzycqJkRJqxtwZdZdX      8,227.62406543 BTC


http://blockchain.info/address/1N99P8Z5AQXWEYZiS6ddov9Fyc4kuGPpwJ





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August 02, 2012, 03:36:43 AM
 #69

Tihan-
So, will you be requesting funds back from those who got paid out 100% of their claims so that everyone will get an equal proportion back?  And is it true that you had a hand in paying out 100% to a select group?

Please understand that I have no authority over the payout process past, present or future.

I'm only updating the community on the actions initiated by the investment group to move that process out of the hands of the Consultancy and into the hands of a legally appointed receiver.

You missed answering a question, but take your time, for I'll keep asking after each time you side-step it.

~Bruno~
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August 02, 2012, 03:54:50 AM
 #70

More Bitcoinica funds moving forward:

1BpuTiQKCKrikmmsbr91D9MVVzdJZyYCf                         11000.677 BTC
1AchWGg13HJqny5j5YZTmWvKGsTWWzDxwj                   5795.52588052 BTC


http://blockchain.info/address/19XTyevts1R1UbJPTv6JiuTW69R6ULXuF7

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August 02, 2012, 03:59:09 AM
 #71

Tihan-
So, will you be requesting funds back from those who got paid out 100% of their claims so that everyone will get an equal proportion back?  And is it true that you had a hand in paying out 100% to a select group?

Please understand that I have no authority over the payout process past, present or future.

I'm only updating the community on the actions initiated by the investment group to move that process out of the hands of the Consultancy and into the hands of a legally appointed receiver.

Authority is one thing; strong influence is another.
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August 02, 2012, 04:14:04 AM
 #72

Bitcoinica funds moving forward:

19XTyevts1R1UbJPTv6JiuTW69R6ULXuF7        6,778.37593457 BTC
1KTBQwKT1V2w1RZXtzycqJkRJqxtwZdZdX      8,227.62406543 BTC


http://blockchain.info/address/1N99P8Z5AQXWEYZiS6ddov9Fyc4kuGPpwJ

Actually those funds were deposited on MtGox by Patrick Murck, cf:
Quick update. The returned Bitcoins are being moved to an account where the receiver can consolidate funds. Transaction details here: http://blockchain.info/address/1LH6Q1ZXvdQepz8hfQd7kx6XHrggz1VkzD.

More updates to come.

Thanks,
Patrick

MtGox officially confirms currently having on deposit those 15,006.00000000 BTC. As you may know, our system uses a pooled Bitcoin online reserve, which means that activity beyond that point is no longer from Bitcoinica, LP.

We also have disabled the ability to withdraw Bitcoins from the account where those Bitcoins are held to ensure the security of those coins until we receive validated information from an appointed receiver for Bitcoinica, LP.
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August 02, 2012, 04:32:30 AM
 #73

How does this effect the efforts by Mt Gox, AurumXChange, et al. to recover the funds from Zhou (or his mysterious friend as the case may be?)

This should remove roadblocks to recovering additional funds.

When the hacker was ready to return 15,000 BTC, that transaction was delayed for days because the Consultancy would not provide a receiving address.

Thankfully, Mr. Murck stepped in as a licensed attorney to broker their receipt. He was subjected to a lot of hazing and invasion of privacy here for doing so. Without him, the coins might never have been recovered.

Those funds and any additional recovered funds will be placed under control of a receiver. This is a formal legal process that will allow Mt Gox et al to release funds to the receiver for distribution.

If what you say is true about the Consultancy, then shame on them.  They are avoiding any responsibility for this mess by doing nothing.
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August 02, 2012, 04:33:58 AM
 #74


MtGox officially confirms currently having on deposit those 15,006.00000000 BTC. As you may know, our system uses a pooled Bitcoin online reserve, which means that activity beyond that point is no longer from Bitcoinica, LP.

We also have disabled the ability to withdraw Bitcoins from the account where those Bitcoins are held to ensure the security of those coins until we receive validated information from an appointed receiver for Bitcoinica, LP.

So why the funds where split in four parts if there is only one account?

The funds were split in four different wallets, including one which have been used for previous transactions.

http://blockchain.info/address/1BpuTiQKCKrikmmsbr91D9MVVzdJZyYCf1
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August 02, 2012, 04:36:04 AM
 #75

So why the funds where split in four parts if there is only one account?

The funds were split in four different wallets, including one which have been used for previous transactions.

http://blockchain.info/address/1BpuTiQKCKrikmmsbr91D9MVVzdJZyYCf1

When you deposit funds on MtGox, those funds are then used for other accounts, it's the way most (if not all) online wallets are working.
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August 02, 2012, 04:46:02 AM
 #76

Bitcoinica funds splitting:

1M2U1HRCXCJhL8zhdXcHx6YFLPff6S1J9k             4714.65137532 BTC
15i6xbw32JQCf2JkF5hFZXWzCWYkiydReH             3512.97269011 BTC


http://blockchain.info/address/1KTBQwKT1V2w1RZXtzycqJkRJqxtwZdZdX

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August 02, 2012, 04:48:59 AM
 #77


When you deposit funds on MtGox, those funds are then used for other accounts, it's the way most (if not all) online wallets are working.

Used for what?

I thought this funds were in a single account, as you admitted.
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August 02, 2012, 05:00:06 AM
 #78

When you deposit funds on MtGox, those funds are then used for other accounts, it's the way most (if not all) online wallets are working.

Used for what?

I thought this funds were in a single account, as you admitted.

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Browser-based_wallet#Things_to_be_aware_of

Basically, the blockchain is not a reliable way to track bitcoins deposited on online wallets.
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August 02, 2012, 05:37:35 AM
 #79

The short version is that:

Amir, Patrick and Donald of Intersango have all made this problem MUCH MUCH WORSE by refusing to act or even reply to emails.
Because of those three, everyone who had money in Bitcoinca will receive back less money than they would have, had they been cooperative.


They should be ashamed.


+1
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August 02, 2012, 06:04:39 AM
 #80

Rackspace hack

Was Rackspace itself actually hacked?

I thought it was only the bitcoinica system within the vm that was compromised.

Symantics aside, I applaud your work in doing the right thing by bitcoinica's users  Smiley

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August 02, 2012, 07:47:35 AM
 #81

Why do we keep letting employees of bitcoinica give "Announcements" without any proof anything will actually happen. I see no reason to not believe they are going to run off with our money. Every update ever given every minuscule payout has always been it appears to delay and give false hope. They have played on our emotions by passing blame around and causing members of this forum to take sides. The drama regarding bitcoinica is not important to me. They are responsible to give back the remaining percentage of funds they may have and then we should be responsible to sue them for the rest due to their incompetance. If they do not give back the remaining funds they do have anyone associated with bitcoinica should be considered untrustworthy and not allowed to do or get any business from this forum. If they are allowed to stay I see no reason to keep an account here. I don't think this should be a haven for scammers. Bitcoin is not bitcointalk.org
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August 02, 2012, 09:00:57 AM
 #82

Why do we keep letting employees of bitcoinica give "Announcements" without any proof anything will actually happen.

Tihan is not an employee of Bitcoinica.  A limited partner's status under NZ law is identical to that of a company shareholder.

Users could have forced the liquidation of Bitcoinica but chose not to do so because it would lessen percentage of funds returned to them and slow down the process of those funds being returned.  It's now pretty much impossible for the refund process to continue without the company being liquidated.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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August 02, 2012, 09:03:13 AM
 #83

Mr Seale, please identify Zhou Tong, would you? It spares us another 50 pages of ongoing speculation in 3 different threads. Thank you!
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August 02, 2012, 10:45:02 AM
 #84

Allow me to re-ask my previous question, but from a different tangent.

Tihan Seale--Will you go on record stating who was the guy you met in the Chimelong Hotel (Guangzhou) lobby this past February? Which one of the two images below did the guy you met resemble the most? Also, please let the community know that you conducted due diligence researching exactly who is "Zhou Tong" prior to the transferring of payola funds to said previous owner of Bitcoinica, or was it standard operating procedure to pay any Asian boy who simply claimed he built the Bitconica site, with the hope that you got rucky and tipped the right boy.

~Bruno~



Looking to the picture with "Dear Bruno, I'm real" poster, I can't get one thing:

Why Zhou Tong trying to prove he is real? If we believe he doesn't really exist then his ass will be safer, coz noone will try to sue him for recent Bitcoinica hack...
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August 02, 2012, 10:52:22 AM
 #85

If you believe the leaked emails, Mr Tihan Seale is the one who suggests using customers’ deposits for company’s expenses in the first place.

We do not know the real shortfall and how much all the hacks (with or without the inverted commas) up to date account for. 5% - 15% of deposits, less?

What we can be sure, however, is that (if this saga is ever to be resolved this way) after paying ‘creditors’ off and all the associated expenses, there would be far less left that it is already there.

Giving poster the benefit of the doubt, i believe current ‘legal way’ plan is (since they had made enough money on the exchange rate already) after ‘sufficient’ time actually process and refund USD deposits to cover their butts, maybe even returning the coins in USD form ‘at the moment of …’ at x% of their current value if the remaining funds/current exchange rate allows.

If they really wanted, there is an easy way to ask customers to resubmit the claims and cross reference them with existing details from Consultancy and Zhou and then simply pay off what’s left of funds to all verified/able proportionally.

The legal way Mr Seale is intended upon would only benefit him and his creditors at customers’ expense, as all ‘legal ways’ do.
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August 02, 2012, 10:53:11 AM
 #86

Quote
Allow me to re-ask my previous question, but from a different tangent.

Tihan Seale--Will you go on record stating who was the guy you met in the Chimelong Hotel (Guangzhou) lobby this past February? Which one of the two images below did the guy you met resemble the most? Also, please let the community know that you conducted due diligence researching exactly who is "Zhou Tong" prior to the transferring of payola funds to said previous owner of Bitcoinica, or was it standard operating procedure to pay any Asian boy who simply claimed he built the Bitconica site, with the hope that you got rucky and tipped the right boy.

Another call for Mr Seale to answer the question and identify Zhou Tong, it would certainly clear a lot of things up.
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August 02, 2012, 11:42:47 AM
Last edit: August 02, 2012, 12:33:01 PM by repentance
 #87

If they really wanted, there is an easy way to ask customers to resubmit the claims and cross reference them with existing details from Consultancy and Zhou and then simply pay off what’s left of funds to all verified/able proportionally.

The Consultancy has stopped communicating with anyone and there is no way for anyone else to assume control of the remaining funds and the refund process without establishing a legal basis for doing so.

We know that at the time the MtGox breach was announced genjix posted that it was likely to result in a forced 30% reduction in refunds.

We also know from genjix's posts that 38% of funds verified as owing had been paid out by July 20 (as those payments were for 50%, the users who received them represented 76% of all verified user claims).

Of course the value of BTC has shifted since recently and that will affect the total funds available for repaying users.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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August 02, 2012, 12:00:33 PM
 #88

Why Zhou Tong trying to prove he is real? If we believe he doesn't really exist then his ass will be safer, coz noone will try to sue him for recent Bitcoinica hack...
Since almost a year Bruno has some strange obsession about ZT being not ZT. So a long time ago, ZT posted this picture with the "Dear Bruno..." writing on it. As you can see, Bruno is still obsessed. And I am sure he would still doubt ZT being ZT after he had successfully dissected him.
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August 02, 2012, 12:56:10 PM
 #89

Quote from: ydenys
If you believe the leaked emails, Mr Tihan Seale is the one who suggests using customers’ deposits for company’s expenses in the first place.

Mr Tihan Seale, do you collect Chinese relics?

unclescrooge
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August 02, 2012, 12:59:25 PM
 #90

Time to rigorously boycott Intersango and the "Bitcoin Conference" then?


BB.

No. Bitcoin conference is a major event which should absolutely not be made about the bitcoinica fiasco.
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August 02, 2012, 01:11:39 PM
 #91

Time to rigorously boycott Intersango and the "Bitcoin Conference" then?


BB.

No. Bitcoin conference is a major event which should absolutely not be made about the bitcoinica fiasco.

Chiming in on the whole Bitcoin conference (www.bitcoin2012.com) boycot idea, just to let you know that the Intersango guys are not the only ones involved in organising it.

If it's boycotted, all the work, time, effort, reputation and money that I and others(who are not involved with Bitcoinica) have already put into organising this conference will be destroyed. The venue has been paid for, awesome speakers have been arranged, over 100 tickets have been sold(and continuing fast, it's going to be sold out), and we've already got loads of sponsors (small bitcoin businesses mostly).

This event is going to be monumentous, as well as being a fantastic opportunity for bitcoiners to meet up, watch the talks, take part in the workshops, it's going to be a boon for bitcoin related businesses and some major PR for bitcoin itself.

If you guys want to turn this into a Bitcoinica rage then you'll destroy all this(other peoples money) and get nothing in return as a result.

Don't mix the conference up with the Bitcoinica affair, it will bring no good for anyone. It's going to be a great, historical event for bitcoin, and soon enough the world in general.

Nefario.



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August 02, 2012, 01:14:11 PM
 #92

Chiming in on the whole Bitcoin conference (www.bitcoin2012.com) boycot idea, just to let you know that the Intersango guys are not the only ones involved in organising it.

If it's boycotted, all the work, time, effort, reputation and money that I and others(who are not involved with Bitcoinica) have already put into organising this conference will be destroyed. The venue has been paid for, awesome speakers have been arranged, over 100 tickets have been sold(and continuing fast, it's going to be sold out), and we've already got loads of sponsors (small bitcoin businesses mostly).

This event is going to be monumentous, as well as being a fantastic opportunity for bitcoiners to meet up, watch the talks, take part in the workshops, it's going to be a boon for bitcoin related businesses and some major PR for bitcoin itself.

If you guys want to turn this into a Bitcoinica rage then you'll destroy all this(other peoples money) and get nothing in return as a result.

Don't mix the conference up with the Bitcoinica affair, it will bring no good for anyone. It's going to be a great, historical event for bitcoin, and soon enough the world in general.

Nefario.
+1
Please don't destroy the conference over this.

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August 02, 2012, 01:22:19 PM
 #93

Chiming in on the whole Bitcoin conference (www.bitcoin2012.com) boycot idea, just to let you know that the Intersango guys are not the only ones involved in organising it.

If it's boycotted, all the work, time, effort, reputation and money that I and others(who are not involved with Bitcoinica) have already put into organising this conference will be destroyed. The venue has been paid for, awesome speakers have been arranged, over 100 tickets have been sold(and continuing fast, it's going to be sold out), and we've already got loads of sponsors (small bitcoin businesses mostly).

This event is going to be monumentous, as well as being a fantastic opportunity for bitcoiners to meet up, watch the talks, take part in the workshops, it's going to be a boon for bitcoin related businesses and some major PR for bitcoin itself.

If you guys want to turn this into a Bitcoinica rage then you'll destroy all this(other peoples money) and get nothing in return as a result.

Don't mix the conference up with the Bitcoinica affair, it will bring no good for anyone. It's going to be a great, historical event for bitcoin, and soon enough the world in general.

Nefario.

+1000

Please don't boycot and hurt the conference over this. You're just hurting Bitcoin as a whole.

www.bitbuy.nl - Koop eenvoudig, snel en goedkoop bitcoins bij Bitbuy!
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August 02, 2012, 01:32:27 PM
 #94

Time to rigorously boycott Intersango and the "Bitcoin Conference" then?
Please don't boycot and hurt the conference over this. You're just hurting Bitcoin as a whole.
You have missed, that it could be BitBusters (and quite a few others) agenda to actually hurt Bitcoin.
And that should be an even greater reason for all of us not to boycott it.
repentance
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August 02, 2012, 01:41:33 PM
 #95

Time to rigorously boycott Intersango and the "Bitcoin Conference" then?
Please don't boycot and hurt the conference over this. You're just hurting Bitcoin as a whole.
You have missed, that it could be BitBusters (and quite a few others) agenda to actually hurt Bitcoin.
And that should be an even greater reason for all of us not to boycott it.

The Intersango guys should probably think about whether their attendance would be disruptive to the conference as a whole though.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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August 02, 2012, 01:45:05 PM
 #96

Thankfully, Mr. Murck stepped in as a licensed attorney to broker their receipt. He was subjected to a lot of hazing and invasion of privacy here for doing so.
For the 5th time: Under what legal authority is Murck able to receive and transfer stolen goods?.

Without him, the coins might never have been recovered.
No coins are back in the hands of their rightful owners. Therefore NO coins have yet been recovered.

Tihan, I will join the chorus of people who implore you to answer Bruno's question.

Chiming in on the whole Bitcoin conference (www.bitcoin2012.com) boycot idea, just to let you know that the Intersango guys are not the only ones involved in organising it.

If it's boycotted, all the work, time, effort, reputation and money that I and others(who are not involved with Bitcoinica) have already put into organising this conference will be destroyed.
Nefario, I totally understand where you are coming from. This is why for your own and the sake of the conference, you must immediately jettison any and all involvement with Intersango/Bitcoinica and other actors. Remove them from the administration and sponsorship of the event, otherwise you will all be tarred with the same brush. There could be severe legal conclusions to all this, please save the conference from becoming compromised in this way.

You have missed, that it could be BitBusters (and quite a few others) agenda to actually hurt Bitcoin.
And that should be an even greater reason for all of us not to boycott it.
You are talking out of your backside. My only agenda is the perpetuation and enrichment of Bitcoin, which demands that its real detractors (theifs, hackers, shady operators) be hunted down and made an example of.


BB.
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August 02, 2012, 01:53:25 PM
 #97

Thankfully, Mr. Murck stepped in as a licensed attorney to broker their receipt. He was subjected to a lot of hazing and invasion of privacy here for doing so.
For the 5th time: Under what legal authority is Murck able to receive and transfer stolen goods?.

As far as I can see, Patrick Murck is acting in contact with Tihan Seale, who is the only known individual known to represent the owners of Bitcoinica LP.

That gives him enough authority to recover whatever possessions that used to be in Bitcoinica's care when whoever stole these says he wants to return [part of] it.
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August 02, 2012, 01:55:12 PM
 #98

Thankfully, Mr. Murck stepped in as a licensed attorney to broker their receipt. He was subjected to a lot of hazing and invasion of privacy here for doing so.
For the 5th time: Under what legal authority is Murck able to receive and transfer stolen goods?.
Why do you even care?

Without him, the coins might never have been recovered.
No coins are back in the hands of their rightful owners. Therefore NO coins have yet been recovered.
Thankfully they have ignored your for-the-5th-time question and the funds are now safe at mtgox.

You have missed, that it could be BitBusters (and quite a few others) agenda to actually hurt Bitcoin.
And that should be an even greater reason for all of us not to boycott it.
You are talking out of your backside. My only agenda is the perpetuation and enrichment of Bitcoin, which demands that its real detractors (theifs, hackers, shady operators) be hunted down and made an example of.
Sure, that is the main reason why you (and others) try to prevent ZT to return the funds. Very logically Huh
You should really contact mlawrence, you are a perfect match to form some "Bitcoin crusade"
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August 02, 2012, 02:27:27 PM
Last edit: August 02, 2012, 02:39:34 PM by disclaimer201
 #99

Time to rigorously boycott Intersango and the "Bitcoin Conference" then?


BB.

No. Bitcoin conference is a major event which should absolutely not be made about the bitcoinica fiasco.

You are right. This is why I politely call all Intersango staff involved in organizing the conference to step back from their responsibility, just as they have from Bitcoinica. Since the conference will probably be co-sponsored by Intersango, this is not going to happen. And this why the conference will fall under a bad light because they cannot afford to lose sponsors I'm sure.
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August 02, 2012, 02:34:24 PM
 #100

For the 5th time: Under what legal authority is Murck able to receive and transfer stolen goods?.
Why do you even care?
Because it is of absolute importance that any legal effort to return stolen funds is, in fact legal.

No coins are back in the hands of their rightful owners. Therefore NO coins have yet been recovered.
Thankfully they have ignored your for-the-5th-time question and the funds are now safe at mtgox.
"Safe"? Perhaps. Legally? Who knows. Returned to the victims? Certainly not.  Wow, what a righteous victory!

Sure, that is the main reason why you (and others) try to prevent ZT to return the funds. Very logically Huh
If Zhou was not the theif, then the funds are not his to return. He is not legally entitled to handle or transfer stolen goods and nor it seems is Murck. Don't try to bait me on logic. It's clear that you cannot understand the logic that for something to be legally legitimate it must have legal authority.

You should really contact mlawrence, you are a perfect match to form some "Bitcoin crusade"
I have no interest with mlawrence and its clear that you have no interest in factual and sincere discussion of the matter.

Since the conference will be probably be co-sponsored by Intersango, this is not going to happen. And this why the conference will fall under a bad light because they cannot afford to lose sponsors I'm sure.
If as many expect, the Intersango trio are eventually proven to be liable/culpable, it could be argued that the whole conference was sponsored by theives with stolen money.


BB.
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August 02, 2012, 02:51:13 PM
 #101

Sure, that is the main reason why you (and others) try to prevent ZT to return the funds. Very logically Huh
If Zhou was not the theif, then the funds are not his to return. He is not legally entitled to handle or transfer stolen goods and nor it seems is Murck. Don't try to bait me on logic. It's clear that you cannot understand the logic that for something to be legally legitimate it must have legal authority.

Logic and law do not mix well, but most of the time laws do make sense.

For example you do not need legal authority to be acting legally, you just need to act within the scope of the law.

For Patrick Murck, officially representing the owners of Bitcoinica LP, receiving goods that were stolen from Bitcoinica LP sounds actually fine, and is probably the best thing that could happen at that point.

The fact is returning funds to customers is not going to be made easy at all by the fact that part of the funds is missing, and the fact that active account data was apparently deleted by the hacker. The claim process is made so people can fill claims, but those claims then need to be reviewed, and processed. The process also usually includes selling any company property to attempt to reduce the missing part... this will take some time.
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August 02, 2012, 02:53:56 PM
 #102

Thankfully, Mr. Murck stepped in as a licensed attorney to broker their receipt. He was subjected to a lot of hazing and invasion of privacy here for doing so.
For the 5th time: Under what legal authority is Murck able to receive and transfer stolen goods?.

As far as I can see, Patrick Murck is acting in contact with Tihan Seale, who is the only known individual known to represent the owners of Bitcoinica LP.

That gives him enough authority to recover whatever possessions that used to be in Bitcoinica's care when whoever stole these says he wants to return [part of] it.


Umm wasn't Tihan fired at one point by the "Wendon Group" ? In the leaked emails he is very much claiming to be so. In light of that I don't really see how you guys can take anything he says at face value.

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August 02, 2012, 02:57:34 PM
 #103

legal
You are so obsessed with the law, that it would be in your best interest to just quit Bitcoin. No really, fiat is your world. They even fabricate laws as they need. Leave Bitcoin, enter fiat. Otherwise you may even discover that bitcoins are used at silk road, another thing that is most probably not legal.
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August 02, 2012, 03:27:17 PM
 #104

If as many expect, the Intersango trio are eventually proven to be liable/culpable, it could be argued that the whole conference was sponsored by theives with stolen money.

BB.

This is rubbish, I've been responsible for the whole sponsorship side of the conference since day one, to say that stolen money was used for the conference is wrong in every way, unless you're calling me a thief.

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August 02, 2012, 03:31:31 PM
 #105

If as many expect, the Intersango trio are eventually proven to be liable/culpable, it could be argued that the whole conference was sponsored by theives with stolen money.

BB.

This is rubbish, I've been responsible for the whole sponsorship side of the conference since day one, to say that stolen money was used for the conference is wrong in every way, unless you're calling me a thief.

This is what you will get if you continue to work together with them, accept it as it is. It isn't even spreading FUD if people tell you it is best to cut all ties with Intersango, you don't want to have angry people show up to wash their dirty laundry right in the workshops.
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August 02, 2012, 03:39:40 PM
 #106

If as many expect, the Intersango trio are eventually proven to be liable/culpable, it could be argued that the whole conference was sponsored by theives with stolen money.

BB.

This is rubbish, I've been responsible for the whole sponsorship side of the conference since day one, to say that stolen money was used for the conference is wrong in every way, unless you're calling me a thief.

This is what you will get if you continue to work together with them, accept it as it is. It isn't even spreading FUD if people tell you it is best to cut all ties with Intersango, you don't want to have angry people show up to wash their dirty laundry right in the workshops.

Cutting ties is one thing, accusing me of being a thief is another.

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August 02, 2012, 03:44:27 PM
 #107

If as many expect, the Intersango trio are eventually proven to be liable/culpable, it could be argued that the whole conference was sponsored by theives with stolen money.

BB.

This is rubbish, I've been responsible for the whole sponsorship side of the conference since day one, to say that stolen money was used for the conference is wrong in every way, unless you're calling me a thief.

This is what you will get if you continue to work together with them, accept it as it is. It isn't even spreading FUD if people tell you it is best to cut all ties with Intersango, you don't want to have angry people show up to wash their dirty laundry right in the workshops.

Cutting ties is one thing, accusing me of being a thief is another.

As I understood it nobody made such an accusation!
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August 02, 2012, 03:53:05 PM
 #108

As I understood it nobody made such an accusation!
Then read the quote you quoted, srsly -_-
it could be argued that the whole conference was sponsored by theives with stolen money.
I've been responsible for the whole sponsorship side of the conference since day one

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August 02, 2012, 03:55:08 PM
 #109

Mr Seale, please identify Zhou Tong, would you? It spares us another 50 pages of ongoing speculation in 3 different threads. Thank you!

Zhou Tong is exactly who he says he is.
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August 02, 2012, 03:56:58 PM
 #110

Mr Seale, please identify Zhou Tong, would you? It spares us another 50 pages of ongoing speculation in 3 different threads. Thank you!

Zhou Tong is exactly who he says he is.

Good. Thank you.
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August 02, 2012, 03:58:12 PM
 #111

You are so obsessed with the law, that it would be in your best interest to just quit Bitcoin. No really, fiat is your world. They even fabricate laws as they need. Leave Bitcoin, enter fiat. Otherwise you may even discover that bitcoins are used at silk road, another thing that is most probably not legal.
Personally, I couldn't care less if what Murck is doing is legal or not. However, with multiple law-enforcement investigations said to take place, the investigators may take a more keen interest in the legality of Murck's actions.

This is rubbish, I've been responsible for the whole sponsorship side of the conference since day one, to say that stolen money was used for the conference is wrong in every way, unless you're calling me a thief.
http://www.bitcoin2012.com/sponsorship Intersango is listed at the very top of the page as a sponsor. It's personnel are heavily implicated in a massive bitcoin theft. Therefore it is concievable that if their guilt is proven, stolen funds may have been used to pay for the sponsorship.

Cutting ties is one thing, accusing me of being a thief is another.
Which I was careful not to do, as you appear to be careful not to distance yourself and the conference from individuals at the centre of this controversy.

Zhou Tong is exactly who he says he is.
For the avoidance of doubt, please state which photograph shows Zhou Tong?


BB.
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August 02, 2012, 04:00:08 PM
 #112

Zhou Tong is exactly who he says he is.
For the avoidance of doubt, please state which photograph shows Zhou Tong?
If he is "exactly who he says he is", then why wouldn't the pictures posted by himself not be of him? If you don't know which ones are which, just look at his posting history to find the correct ones.

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August 02, 2012, 04:03:18 PM
 #113

Mr Seale, please identify Zhou Tong, would you? It spares us another 50 pages of ongoing speculation in 3 different threads. Thank you!

Zhou Tong is exactly who he says he is.
One can already sense now, that Bruno will still not believe it.
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August 02, 2012, 04:03:42 PM
 #114

If as many expect, the Intersango trio are eventually proven to be liable/culpable, it could be argued that the whole conference was sponsored by theives with stolen money.

BB.

This is rubbish, I've been responsible for the whole sponsorship side of the conference since day one, to say that stolen money was used for the conference is wrong in every way, unless you're calling me a thief.

This is what you will get if you continue to work together with them, accept it as it is. It isn't even spreading FUD if people tell you it is best to cut all ties with Intersango, you don't want to have angry people show up to wash their dirty laundry right in the workshops.

Cutting ties is one thing, accusing me of being a thief is another.
Then please do so! There is only one way to regain trust in this community: bitcoiners finally have to start making those who scam and act irresponsibly with others funds outkast.
The total lack of moral values let you greedy folk do business with whomever comes along as long as you are yourself not affected by their wrongdoing.

Money is power - be wise and challenge the source and destination of your funds. Everything has an effect - use your power for the good.  (I can i.e. not explain the motivation of all those funding the pirate other than by greed )

I am not talking about karma when I warn you that relying on funding by these despicable subjects wont turn out well for you all. Look out for other sources - there is still time!

I openly boycott the Bitcoinica Consultancy team or Intersango: Donald Norman, Patrick Strateman and Amir Taaki
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August 02, 2012, 04:05:14 PM
 #115

Thankfully, Mr. Murck stepped in as a licensed attorney to broker their receipt. He was subjected to a lot of hazing and invasion of privacy here for doing so.
For the 5th time: Under what legal authority is Murck able to receive and transfer stolen goods?.

As far as I can see, Patrick Murck is acting in contact with Tihan Seale, who is the only known individual known to represent the owners of Bitcoinica LP.

That gives him enough authority to recover whatever possessions that used to be in Bitcoinica's care when whoever stole these says he wants to return [part of] it.


Umm wasn't Tihan fired at one point by the "Wendon Group" ? In the leaked emails he is very much claiming to be so. In light of that I don't really see how you guys can take anything he says at face value.

@Tihan: indeed clarification needed. Are you still acting on behalf of the Wendon Group?

I openly boycott the Bitcoinica Consultancy team or Intersango: Donald Norman, Patrick Strateman and Amir Taaki
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August 02, 2012, 04:05:23 PM
 #116

If he is "exactly who he says he is", then why wouldn't the pictures posted by himself not be of him? If you don't know which ones are which, just look at his posting history to find the correct ones.

For the avoidance of doubt.
Having met Zhou, Tihan should be able to say/repost which photo is of him.
Without having to first contact Zhou on this forum or otherwise.


BB.
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August 02, 2012, 04:07:20 PM
 #117


This is rubbish, I've been responsible for the whole sponsorship side of the conference since day one, to say that stolen money was used for the conference is wrong in every way, unless you're calling me a thief.
http://www.bitcoin2012.com/sponsorship Intersango is listed at the very top of the page as a sponsor. It's personnel are heavily implicated in a massive bitcoin theft. Therefore it is concievable that if their guilt is proven, stolen funds may have been used to pay for the sponsorship.

BB.

They were sponsors since February when the planning for the conference began, before there was any involvement with bitcoinica.

There is no chance of any stolen funds being involved with the event.

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August 02, 2012, 04:09:39 PM
 #118

So Intersango do not owe any funds for sponsorship at all? Regardless, you should refund their sponsorship money and remove them from the view/organisation of the conference. This is not a personal vendetta, just pragmatic action so that, whatever the legal outcome, the conference is not brought into disrepute as it has been so far and will continue to be otherwise.


BB.
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August 02, 2012, 04:13:38 PM
 #119

So Intersango do not owe any funds for sponsorship at all? Regardless, you should refund their sponsorship money and remove them from the view/organisation of the conference. This is not a personal vendetta, just pragmatic action so that, whatever the legal outcome, the conference is not brought into disrepute as it has been so far and will continue to be otherwise.


BB.
+1 how much funding would you need to replace them?

I openly boycott the Bitcoinica Consultancy team or Intersango: Donald Norman, Patrick Strateman and Amir Taaki
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August 02, 2012, 04:17:18 PM
 #120

If he is "exactly who he says he is", then why wouldn't the pictures posted by himself not be of him? If you don't know which ones are which, just look at his posting history to find the correct ones.

For the avoidance of doubt.
Having met Zhou, Tihan should be able to say/repost which photo is of him.
Without having to first contact Zhou on this forum or otherwise.


BB.

This is a non-issue now. Tihan didn't know the newly posted pictures and Zhou's pictures of himself were posted long ago. Only if you followed the story just recently would this be an issue. Now that Tihan says Zhou is who he says he is, namely a freshman student with an I-toy and a 1k physical gold bitcoin, I'm certain that's how it is. Look for other clues, Sherlocks.
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August 02, 2012, 04:22:37 PM
 #121


This is rubbish, I've been responsible for the whole sponsorship side of the conference since day one, to say that stolen money was used for the conference is wrong in every way, unless you're calling me a thief.
http://www.bitcoin2012.com/sponsorship Intersango is listed at the very top of the page as a sponsor. It's personnel are heavily implicated in a massive bitcoin theft. Therefore it is concievable that if their guilt is proven, stolen funds may have been used to pay for the sponsorship.

BB.

They were sponsors since February when the planning for the conference began, before there was any involvement with bitcoinica.

There is no chance of any stolen funds being involved with the event.

Good. You only need to worry about the conference's reputation by mere association then. It would be advisable to remove everything Intersango-related from flyers, posters and websites.
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August 02, 2012, 04:25:52 PM
 #122

Umm wasn't Tihan fired at one point by the "Wendon Group" ? In the leaked emails he is very much claiming to be so. In light of that I don't really see how you guys can take anything he says at face value.

@Tihan: indeed clarification needed. Are you still acting on behalf of the Wendon Group?

I emailed with Tihan on July 29 and he addressed some of these questions, so I hope he does not mind me sharing his clarifications here:

Quote
The idea that I've been fired is one of many false rumors perpetuated by the Consultancy. This disaster will negatively impact my livelihood. However, I have not had a "boss" since 1999

Quote
Wendon Group is an investment fund -- an inanimate pile of dollars. It does not have the ability to 'care' about Bitcoinica customers. I can and do. The return of funds to customers has been my first priority since the theft.

Tihan really seems to be acting in the best interest of Bitcoinica customers here. Of course; time will tell, but at least I have some hope again.
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August 02, 2012, 05:00:36 PM
 #123

So Intersango do not owe any funds for sponsorship at all? Regardless, you should refund their sponsorship money and remove them from the view/organisation of the conference. This is not a personal vendetta, just pragmatic action so that, whatever the legal outcome, the conference is not brought into disrepute as it has been so far and will continue to be otherwise.


BB.
+1 how much funding would you need to replace them?

I think we would be willing to raise funds to refund Intersango just so they won't be affiliated with the conference. Of course we would have to know how much to raise.
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August 02, 2012, 07:36:06 PM
 #124

sub
Are you joking? :P https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=90136.0
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August 02, 2012, 07:44:52 PM
 #125

Quote from: NRF
What I am really (and selfishly) hoping for is that it will give a legal test case and President of the status of Bitcoin in New Zealand Law .  It will probably have to go all the way to the High Court to do it, and New Zealand is probably the only country in the world you can do it in at the moment (I wont bore you with New Zealand Law and current event's  Roll Eyes ) .

From there it is a simple step to Commonwealth Law because of the quirks of how New Zealand law works and from there to International Law will probably have to involve another president case (or possibly even the same one).

I humbly suggest everyone get behind this bandwagon.

I don't know why you want a bandwagon to become president? Can you vote for a vehicle in New Zealand? 'Fiat Bandwagon for President.'

Quote
Not to be confused with President, nor [the plural] with "precedence"

In common law legal systems, a precedent or authority is a principle or rule established in a previous legal case that is either binding on or persuasive for a court or other tribunal when deciding subsequent cases with similar issues or facts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precedent

Quote from: EnergyVampire
Mr Tihan Seale, do you collect Chinese relics?
lol

Quote from: disclaimer201
Quote from: tseale
Quote from: disclaimer201
Mr Seale, please identify Zhou Tong, would you? It spares us another 50 pages of ongoing speculation in 3 different threads. Thank you!
Zhou Tong is exactly who he says he is.
Good. Thank you.

Tihan didn't answer your question, but provided an answer that is supportive of Zhou Tong. Some people are easily satisfied by deflective answers. If Zhou Tong has another real world identity, Zhou Tong being a pseudonym, then Tihan's deflective answer is protecting that real worl identity.

The way this is going, it looks like Zhou Tong will become the hero. You couldn't write a story like this if you tried...or could you?

For Bitcoin to be a true global currency the value of BTC needs always to rise.
If BTC became the global currency & money supply = 100 Trillion then ⊅1.00 BTC = $4,761,904.76.
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August 02, 2012, 07:57:58 PM
 #126


I don't know why you want a bandwagon to become president? Can you vote for a vehicle in New Zealand? 'Fiat Bandwagon for President.'


I wish I did not have a mouth full of hot coffee when I read that.......

I blame the spell check in chrome.  Roll Eyes
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August 02, 2012, 08:38:51 PM
 #127


Quote from: disclaimer201
Quote from: tseale
Quote from: disclaimer201
Mr Seale, please identify Zhou Tong, would you? It spares us another 50 pages of ongoing speculation in 3 different threads. Thank you!
Zhou Tong is exactly who he says he is.
Good. Thank you.

Tihan didn't answer your question, but provided an answer that is supportive of Zhou Tong. Some people are easily satisfied by deflective answers. If Zhou Tong has another real world identity, Zhou Tong being a pseudonym, then Tihan's deflective answer is protecting that real worl identity.

The way this is going, it looks like Zhou Tong will become the hero. You couldn't write a story like this if you tried...or could you?

Zhou has never claimed to be anyone else but the person in the photos he sent for the entire time before and after the hacks. Since this is the case, Seale's answer is not necessarily deflective. Of course you could still claim Zhou was an invention ever since, but what motives should Seale have to protect him? I think he would be better off telling everyone it was a made up identity if this was the case.
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August 02, 2012, 09:40:50 PM
 #128

Time to rigorously boycott Intersango and the "Bitcoin Conference" then?

BB.
...
Chiming in on the whole Bitcoin conference (www.bitcoin2012.com) boycot idea, just to let you know that the Intersango guys are not the only ones involved in organising it.

If it's boycotted, all the work, time, effort, reputation and money that I and others(who are not involved with Bitcoinica) have already put into organising this conference will be destroyed. The venue has been paid for, awesome speakers have been arranged, over 100 tickets have been sold(and continuing fast, it's going to be sold out), and we've already got loads of sponsors (small bitcoin businesses mostly).

This event is going to be monumentous, as well as being a fantastic opportunity for bitcoiners to meet up, watch the talks, take part in the workshops, it's going to be a boon for bitcoin related businesses and some major PR for bitcoin itself.

If you guys want to turn this into a Bitcoinica rage then you'll destroy all this(other peoples money) and get nothing in return as a result.

Don't mix the conference up with the Bitcoinica affair, it will bring no good for anyone. It's going to be a great, historical event for bitcoin, and soon enough the world in general.

Nefario.

Let make this clear,

A boycott does not directly mean destroying "all the work, time, effort, reputation and money"...

Again,
While they are doing this they aren't doing what they should be doing.
(to the detriment of a Bitcoinica resolution.)

If it hasn't come to mind yet that Amir's works toward the conference or anything else was affecting the members of the community and that it would directly affect the conference you've been burring your head in the same sand as these guys.

If you want to argue that they should ignore all Bitcoinica creditors and keep the money then do so in another thread and don't forget to go through the 300+ pages related to this fiasco before saying a word.

Cutting all ties with them at this point would be minimal a step to improve public perception of the conference and bitcoin in general.
It doesn't remove the fact that you may, with knowledge of the fiasco, have been working with these guys for months, accepting their work without question, show a lack of support to the affected members (even if their work seemed benevolent).


To give you a hint of how I feel; When I was looking at this video, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQ2rb4pHH1g&feature=player_detailpage#t=682s  I was thinking : " How can they be listening to this guy talking about something else ? and ...  They must know about it
There are priorities in life. Now you know.

"monumentous" is the time wasted by this community to this fiasco, monumentous is the cost of their inactions, monumentous ...ain't even a word.

Can you imagine the amount of stress they put onto the thousands of bitcoinica customers ?  I personally have canceled contracts to work on this, I have lost sleep, I have spent hundreds of hours following this and attempting to get into contact with them.  They're withholding some insane amount of my lifesavings and can't be bothered to give an update.

Anybody benefiting from their time/work in anyways without doing anything to solve this should be ashamed.
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August 02, 2012, 11:08:50 PM
 #129

Okay, no boycott, but no public forum for the Intersango Gang, and their logo comes off the website today. If you want the conference to be about healing and community, you don't welcome sewer rats as prodigal sons. Keep their money, god knows they have taken enough off the community to support lavish vacations for themselves instead of working on solving the problem that they created.
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August 02, 2012, 11:17:46 PM
 #130

Okay, no boycott, but no public forum for the Intersango Gang, and their logo comes off the website today. If you want the conference to be about healing and community, you don't welcome sewer rats as prodigal sons. Keep their money, god knows they have taken enough off the community to support lavish vacations for themselves instead of working on solving the problem that they created.

Isn't that a bit harsh? After all, some of the Bitclown Consultancy members spent 3 days eating bad muesli and cheap milk.
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August 02, 2012, 11:57:14 PM
 #131

@All
The consultancy team failed and harmed a large fraction of the Bitcoin community. I ask you all to boycott all their ongoing ventures e.g. Intersango, the London Bitcoin conference, personal trades, open source projects etc.

The bitcoin team isn't going to simply oppose their source code contribution to the project. Doing so is quite self-harming. Given that the conference is a big chance for the bitcoin community to get together and build business tie and relationship, so to deny going there is self harming.

Intersango is a bitcoin exchange among many, so boycotting it doesn't cause much self-harm. We just use mtgox instead.

Just a note that, last time I looked, I could only find about four lines of source code from any member of "bitcoin consultancy" in the official/core bitcoin project maintained by gavin. It was just some bash script from Amir to check the OS and run the correct client. Since then, Amir has been working on his own client and library, not submitting pull requests to the official repository, as far I know.

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August 03, 2012, 02:11:32 AM
 #132

Thankfully they have ignored your for-the-5th-time question and the funds are now safe at mtgox.

I think they would be a lot safer if they were held in an offline wallet, or converted to a fiat currency and deposited with an institution with insured deposits.

Is there any reason to believe that Mt Gox isn't today exactly what/where Bitcoinica was 6 months ago?

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August 03, 2012, 02:35:52 AM
Last edit: August 03, 2012, 03:39:29 AM by Serge
 #133

Thankfully they have ignored your for-the-5th-time question and the funds are now safe at mtgox.

I think they would be a lot safer if they were held in an offline wallet, or converted to a fiat currency and deposited with an institution with insured deposits.

Is there any reason to believe that Mt Gox isn't today exactly what/where Bitcoinica was 6 months ago?



you got it wrong
Bitcoinica is nowhere near where Mtgox was a year ago and never has
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August 03, 2012, 02:53:57 AM
 #134

Umm wasn't Tihan fired at one point by the "Wendon Group" ? In the leaked emails he is very much claiming to be so. In light of that I don't really see how you guys can take anything he says at face value.

@Tihan: indeed clarification needed. Are you still acting on behalf of the Wendon Group?

I emailed with Tihan on July 29 and he addressed some of these questions, so I hope he does not mind me sharing his clarifications here:

Quote
The idea that I've been fired is one of many false rumors perpetuated by the Consultancy. This disaster will negatively impact my livelihood. However, I have not had a "boss" since 1999

Quote
Wendon Group is an investment fund -- an inanimate pile of dollars. It does not have the ability to 'care' about Bitcoinica customers. I can and do. The return of funds to customers has been my first priority since the theft.

Tihan really seems to be acting in the best interest of Bitcoinica customers here. Of course; time will tell, but at least I have some hope again.


Thanks for this.

Now that 15k BTC is with MtGox (where is the rest? wasn't disclosed if there was still any in cold storage or if all of it was on mtgox), I'm curious about the further role of Patrick Murck. Hopefully zhoutong is still working with him on getting the rest of the funds from Chen Jianhai, BTC and USD.


Acting in its capacity as creditor to Bitcoinica LP, the Wendon Group investment fund will appoint a receiver under New Zealand law. This has been an option of last resort which is now unavoidable. Under receivership, a licensed and insured specialist will replace the Consultancy as the designated authority. Upon satisfaction of secured creditor interests, the company will proceed to liquidation in which remaining funds are distributed. Without Consultancy cooperation, this is the only ready way forward.

Is there any possibility for Patrick Murck to meet the requirements of New Zealand law, so that Wendon Group can appoint him as receiver? Maybe Mr. Murck is willing to handle the claims process, and Bitcoinica Consultancy could hand over all the filed claims and their work on separating the valid from the fraudulent.

Tihan, you also previously stated that the fund would be proceeding with legal action against the Bitcoinica Consultancy. Is the fund still planning to do that?

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August 03, 2012, 02:58:17 AM
 #135

Thankfully they have ignored your for-the-5th-time question and the funds are now safe at mtgox.

I think they would be a lot safer if they were held in an offline wallet, or converted to a fiat currency and deposited with an institution with insured deposits.

Is there any reason to believe that Mt Gox isn't today exactly what/where Bitcoinica was 6 months ago?



you got it wrong
Bitcoinica is nowhere near where Mtgox was a year ago and never was

That's great news! Perhaps you could explain what facts lead you to that conclusion, so the rest of us could feel as confident.
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August 03, 2012, 02:59:06 AM
 #136

...
Now that 15k BTC is with MtGox (where is the rest? wasn't disclosed if there was still any in cold storage or if all of it was on mtgox), I'm curious about the further role of Patrick Murck. Hopefully zhoutong is still working with him on getting the rest of the funds from Chen Jianhai, BTC and USD.
...
I is apparently "well documented in various places (it's all in a frozen mtgox account)"

Code:
01[15:23] <Transist-> Phantom, unrelated to intersango, Some of creditors, myself included, would like to know what kind of security is protecting the remaining assets ?  You may understand we are worried given Genjix track record on security.
01[15:23] <Transist-> Thank you
[15:24] <@phantomcircuit> Transist-, that is well documented in various places (it's all in a frozen mtgox account), also im tired of telling you that this is an inappropriate method of communications
03[15:24] * phantomcircuit sets mode: +b *Transis*!*@*
03[15:25] * You were kicked by phantomcircuit (Transist-)
Session Close: Thu Aug 02 15:25:02 2012
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August 03, 2012, 03:03:53 AM
 #137

Thankfully they have ignored your for-the-5th-time question and the funds are now safe at mtgox.
I think they would be a lot safer if they were held in an offline wallet, or converted to a fiat currency and deposited with an institution with insured deposits.

Is there any reason to believe that Mt Gox isn't today exactly what/where Bitcoinica was 6 months ago?

you got it wrong
Bitcoinica is nowhere near where Mtgox was a year ago and never was

That's great news! Perhaps you could explain what facts lead you to that conclusion, so the rest of us could feel as confident.
Do you think we care to challenge MtGox security at this time ? as long as it's not in Genjix - PhantomC hands I'm fine with it.
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August 03, 2012, 04:11:32 AM
 #138

Thankfully they have ignored your for-the-5th-time question and the funds are now safe at mtgox.

I think they would be a lot safer if they were held in an offline wallet, or converted to a fiat currency and deposited with an institution with insured deposits.

Is there any reason to believe that Mt Gox isn't today exactly what/where Bitcoinica was 6 months ago?



you got it wrong
Bitcoinica is nowhere near where Mtgox was a year ago and never was

That's great news! Perhaps you could explain what facts lead you to that conclusion, so the rest of us could feel as confident.

Mtgox survived one or two hacks last summer, they've upped their security probably withstanding more attempts since then than any other bitcoin online business. They're DDOS resistant to capacity that technology allows. They've had backups and were able to rollback their books after last summer's hack. And they were one of the first using cold storage for majority of bitcoins on their exchange. I'd say out of amateur company last year they've grew into one of most if not the most technologically solid bitcoin companies today. Other than deposit/withdraw issues mainly due to interfacing with fiat-ruled world they've upheld their reputation as an exchange on high level.

Bitcoinica on another hand?  I've lost count how many times it's been successfully hacked into and stolen from, there were so much fail, negligence, hindsight to security that it is not even comparable with Mtgox. Apples and oranges.
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August 03, 2012, 04:25:30 AM
 #139


Mtgox survived one or two hacks last summer, they've upped their security probably withstanding more attempts since then than any other bitcoin online business. They're DDOS resistant to capacity that technology allows. They've had backups and were able to rollback their books after last summer's hack. And they were one of the first using cold storage for majority of bitcoins on their exchange. I'd say out of amateur company last year they've grew into one of most if not the most technologically solid bitcoin companies today. Other than deposit/withdraw issues mainly due to interfacing with fiat-ruled world they've upheld their reputation as an exchange on high level.

Bitcoinica on another hand?  I've lost count have many times it's been successfully hacked into and stolen from, there was some much fail, negligence, hindsight to security that it is not even comparable with Mtgox. Apples and oranges.

MtGox was also hated by a lot of bitcoiners and some forum thread about mtgox raged for 50+ pages, just like bitcoinica. They also have a meme invented against them. It was called being "goxed".

However, mtgox survives/resolve the crisis, and people move on with their life, and the hatred, if not mistrust, disappears.

Bitcoinica consultancy on the other hand, just utterly fall apart after zhoutong/friend_of_zhoutong stole the money.

Only in crisis do people discover the true strength/weakness of an organization and the characters of the people who run it. If an exchange never been through the baptism of crisis, you don't know their integrity.

(To be fair, mtgox never have their money stolen by a possible insider who seems all trustworthy)

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August 03, 2012, 09:58:40 AM
 #140

Tihan, is there any indication yet when USD might start being recovered?  I know it was stated earlier that another 5000 BTC will be returned after the USD have been returned, but I also believe it's important for the community to see that the recovered funds are increasing and that the recovery process itself hasn't stalled.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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August 04, 2012, 09:23:14 PM
 #141


I is apparently "well documented in various places (it's all in a frozen mtgox account)"

Code:
01[15:23] <Transist-> Phantom, unrelated to intersango, Some of creditors, myself included, would like to know what kind of security is protecting the remaining assets ?  You may understand we are worried given Genjix track record on security.
01[15:23] <Transist-> Thank you
[15:24] <@phantomcircuit> Transist-, that is well documented in various places (it's all in a frozen mtgox account), also im tired of telling you that this is an inappropriate method of communications
03[15:24] * phantomcircuit sets mode: +b *Transis*!*@*
03[15:25] * You were kicked by phantomcircuit (Transist-)
Session Close: Thu Aug 02 15:25:02 2012

Oh my.  Perhaps Patrick would care to enlighten users as to what he does regard as an appropriate method of communication.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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August 04, 2012, 09:37:04 PM
 #142

What an asshole that is. He makes me sick.
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August 05, 2012, 02:08:12 AM
 #143


I is apparently "well documented in various places (it's all in a frozen mtgox account)"

Code:
01[15:23] <Transist-> Phantom, unrelated to intersango, Some of creditors, myself included, would like to know what kind of security is protecting the remaining assets ?  You may understand we are worried given Genjix track record on security.
01[15:23] <Transist-> Thank you
[15:24] <@phantomcircuit> Transist-, that is well documented in various places (it's all in a frozen mtgox account), also im tired of telling you that this is an inappropriate method of communications
03[15:24] * phantomcircuit sets mode: +b *Transis*!*@*
03[15:25] * You were kicked by phantomcircuit (Transist-)
Session Close: Thu Aug 02 15:25:02 2012

Oh my.  Perhaps Patrick would care to enlighten users as to what he does regard as an appropriate method of communication.

I guess until we show him respect, we are all expected to just remain silent so that he can enjoy his well-earned vacation on YOUR funds after he spent so much time dodging the issues about YOUR funds.

Or is that "fucking respect"? I forget, it was so many embarrassing moments ago for the Intersango Gango Clown Patrol.
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August 05, 2012, 02:36:44 PM
 #144

I guess Patrick is so cocky and disrespectful because he believes that he will not be held to account or punished for his actions?

Surely such a "Security Expert" who boasts on the Intersango website about his supposed technical ability and "courteous" support would want to legally clear his name with dignity, rather than just lashing out at those who want answers?


BB.
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August 05, 2012, 04:14:10 PM
 #145

One would think so, but then one would be confronted with the reality of what the Intersango Gango is really all about. Shame, shame shame.
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August 05, 2012, 04:18:22 PM
 #146


I is apparently "well documented in various places (it's all in a frozen mtgox account)"

Code:
01[15:23] <Transist-> Phantom, unrelated to intersango, Some of creditors, myself included, would like to know what kind of security is protecting the remaining assets ?  You may understand we are worried given Genjix track record on security.
01[15:23] <Transist-> Thank you
[15:24] <@phantomcircuit> Transist-, that is well documented in various places (it's all in a frozen mtgox account), also im tired of telling you that this is an inappropriate method of communications
03[15:24] * phantomcircuit sets mode: +b *Transis*!*@*
03[15:25] * You were kicked by phantomcircuit (Transist-)
Session Close: Thu Aug 02 15:25:02 2012

Disgusting! And he wants some respect somehow! What a horrible human being.




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August 05, 2012, 11:19:36 PM
 #147


I is apparently "well documented in various places (it's all in a frozen mtgox account)"

Code:
01[15:23] <Transist-> Phantom, unrelated to intersango, Some of creditors, myself included, would like to know what kind of security is protecting the remaining assets ?  You may understand we are worried given Genjix track record on security.
01[15:23] <Transist-> Thank you
[15:24] <@phantomcircuit> Transist-, that is well documented in various places (it's all in a frozen mtgox account), also im tired of telling you that this is an inappropriate method of communications
03[15:24] * phantomcircuit sets mode: +b *Transis*!*@*
03[15:25] * You were kicked by phantomcircuit (Transist-)
Session Close: Thu Aug 02 15:25:02 2012

Disgusting! And he wants some respect somehow! What a horrible human being.



It will certainly be interesting to see how he responds to the Bitcoinica LP liquidator's requests for information.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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August 05, 2012, 11:43:37 PM
 #148


I is apparently "well documented in various places (it's all in a frozen mtgox account)"

Code:
01[15:23] <Transist-> Phantom, unrelated to intersango, Some of creditors, myself included, would like to know what kind of security is protecting the remaining assets ?  You may understand we are worried given Genjix track record on security.
01[15:23] <Transist-> Thank you
[15:24] <@phantomcircuit> Transist-, that is well documented in various places (it's all in a frozen mtgox account), also im tired of telling you that this is an inappropriate method of communications
03[15:24] * phantomcircuit sets mode: +b *Transis*!*@*
03[15:25] * You were kicked by phantomcircuit (Transist-)
Session Close: Thu Aug 02 15:25:02 2012

Disgusting! And he wants some respect somehow! What a horrible human being.



It will certainly be interesting to see how he responds to the Bitcoinica LP liquidator's requests for information.

He certainly seems to have no problem leaking someone else's password at Intersango. It should be interesting to see how he responds to legal requests indeed.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=98622.0
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August 07, 2012, 01:55:49 AM
 #149

Any update on how the recovery of further funds is progressing?

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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August 07, 2012, 01:56:48 AM
 #150


I is apparently "well documented in various places (it's all in a frozen mtgox account)"

Code:
01[15:23] <Transist-> Phantom, unrelated to intersango, Some of creditors, myself included, would like to know what kind of security is protecting the remaining assets ?  You may understand we are worried given Genjix track record on security.
01[15:23] <Transist-> Thank you
[15:24] <@phantomcircuit> Transist-, that is well documented in various places (it's all in a frozen mtgox account), also im tired of telling you that this is an inappropriate method of communications
03[15:24] * phantomcircuit sets mode: +b *Transis*!*@*
03[15:25] * You were kicked by phantomcircuit (Transist-)
Session Close: Thu Aug 02 15:25:02 2012

Disgusting! And he wants some respect somehow! What a horrible human being.



It will certainly be interesting to see how he responds to the Bitcoinica LP liquidator's requests for information.

He certainly seems to have no problem leaking someone else's password at Intersango. It should be interesting to see how he responds to legal requests indeed.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=98622.0

He will tell the lawyer to respect him  Cheesy

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August 07, 2012, 02:15:34 AM
 #151

He will tell the lawyer to fucking respect him  Cheesy
FTFY

░▒▓█ Coinroll.it - 1% House Edge Dice Game █▓▒░ • Coinroll Thread • *FREE* 100 BTC Raffle

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August 07, 2012, 02:19:32 AM
 #152

He will tell the lawyer to fucking respect him  Cheesy
FTFY

indeed  Smiley

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August 07, 2012, 04:31:38 AM
 #153

Any update on how the recovery of further funds is progressing?

Kinda limbo, but for sure don't expect to see anything in the likes of...

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August 07, 2012, 03:15:06 PM
 #154

Is there any update on this stuff guys?  Seems like it has been a while since we have heard anything new. 
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August 07, 2012, 04:01:09 PM
 #155

Is there any update on this stuff guys?  Seems like it has been a while since we have heard anything new. 
It's been less than a week... Of course, with all of the hackings/other drama, I can see how you've come to expect more (bad) news every few days/hours.

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August 07, 2012, 04:42:07 PM
 #156

Waiting for the receiver being appointed. I asked Tihan and he said it will be soon and will be announced.

I am not involved in the process other than being one of the creditors, but my recommendation for the time being is to collect all evidence you have for supporting your claim and be ready to provide it in a form that the receiver requests.
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August 07, 2012, 04:51:17 PM
 #157

Waiting for the receiver being appointed. I asked Tihan and he said it will be soon and will be announced.

I am not involved in the process other than being one of the creditors, but my recommendation for the time being is to collect all evidence you have for supporting your claim and be ready to provide it in a form that the receiver requests.

I just realized that this is you (far left):

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August 07, 2012, 05:44:05 PM
 #158

Waiting for the receiver being appointed. I asked Tihan and he said it will be soon and will be announced.

I am not involved in the process other than being one of the creditors, but my recommendation for the time being is to collect all evidence you have for supporting your claim and be ready to provide it in a form that the receiver requests.

I was wondering about that, what info should we prepare for the receiver.
In my case, i only used BTC to move money in and out of bitcoinica.
Should I provide proof of ownership of incoming BTC addresses ? (If so how ? Is there tools for the receiver to check that ?)
Are the mails of any use ? (is there a way for gmail to prove that the mail was sent by bitcoinica and not tempered with ?)


1BestioLC7YBVh8Q5LfH6RYURD6MrpP8y6
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August 07, 2012, 07:10:53 PM
 #159

No news, just despair.

From : Life after Bitcoinica,,, as a creditor.

...What they certainly don't understand is that, right now, some people cannot live healthily after having invested hearth and money blindly into what they strongly believe being the grandest of projects.

I am not asking them to process the payouts, I am merely asking for a sign of hope.
We don't have confidence that the funds are safe.
We don't have confidence that the incomplete data that could help processing claim is safe.
We don't have confidence that the list of who has been paid is safe.

If safe, ... to what extent ... ?  If both of you die, would that still be safe ? (not secure)

No backup, no security, no communication and being arrogant on top of that. How else than worried should we be feeling ?
...
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August 07, 2012, 07:29:55 PM
 #160

(is there a way for gmail to prove that the mail was sent by bitcoinica and not tempered with ?)
You can see the originating server/ip address here:

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August 07, 2012, 07:44:20 PM
 #161

I just realized that this is you (far left):
Congratulations Phinn, outstanding detective work. You however missed that I'm visible and hearable on the video recordings as well: http://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Project:Bitcoin/Bitcoin_Weekend_2011#Recordings.
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August 07, 2012, 09:04:57 PM
 #162

Is there any update on this stuff guys?  Seems like it has been a while since we have heard anything new. 
It's been less than a week... Of course, with all of the hackings/other drama, I can see how you've come to expect more (bad) news every few days/hours.

It's not necessarily matter of expecting bad news, but wanting to know how long "Chen" will be given to return funds before a receiver is appointed. The possibility exists that "Chen" will not return the full amount promised, so there needs to be a plan to proceed to receivership and liquidation at a certain point in time regardless of whether or not "Chen" has returned the funds by then.  As it's somewhat difficult to believe that a multi-millionaire could not produce $200,000 ($140,000 + 5000 BTC) within a couple of weeks, that timeline should be weeks away at most.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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August 07, 2012, 10:22:10 PM
 #163

It might be that some of you missed this:
Crap. I deleted data I thought wasn't relevent and now I find how they were linked. ~mumblemumble~
*Microsoft Corp. acquired Oslo-based Fast Search & Transfer (FAST)*

Now, Microsoft.com and fda.hhs.gov connect.



And don't forget that AurumXchange and MagicalTux claimed that I worked for Microsoft Singapore at some point in time in 2011.
please contribute relevant information: how is the status of the fiat money return?

Doing that. Finishing by next week.

To my best knowledge the progress of fund recovery has nothing much to do with Bitcoinica fund returns. I spend most of my time waiting for Bitcoinica, bankers, lawyers and the hacker. So contributing irrelevant information doesn't slow down the fund returns to customers. Don't worry!

I openly boycott the Bitcoinica Consultancy team or Intersango: Donald Norman, Patrick Strateman and Amir Taaki
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August 07, 2012, 11:11:29 PM
 #164

It might be that some of you missed this:
Crap. I deleted data I thought wasn't relevent and now I find how they were linked. ~mumblemumble~
*Microsoft Corp. acquired Oslo-based Fast Search & Transfer (FAST)*

Now, Microsoft.com and fda.hhs.gov connect.



And don't forget that AurumXchange and MagicalTux claimed that I worked for Microsoft Singapore at some point in time in 2011.
please contribute relevant information: how is the status of the fiat money return?

Doing that. Finishing by next week.

To my best knowledge the progress of fund recovery has nothing much to do with Bitcoinica fund returns. I spend most of my time waiting for Bitcoinica, bankers, lawyers and the hacker. So contributing irrelevant information doesn't slow down the fund returns to customers. Don't worry!

Hopefully we can look forward in the next couple of days to confirmation by Patrick Murck that the funds are now safely in his possession.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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August 07, 2012, 11:43:33 PM
 #165

I just realized that this is you (far left):
Congratulations Phinn, outstanding detective work. You however missed that I'm visible and hearable on the video recordings as well: http://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Project:Bitcoin/Bitcoin_Weekend_2011#Recordings.
lonelyminer, I think you missed the point. Since when does Bruno believe that someone is who he actually is?
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August 07, 2012, 11:55:23 PM
 #166

...
lonelyminer, I think you missed the point. Since when does Bruno believe that someone is who he actually is?
Your point ?
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August 08, 2012, 02:11:06 AM
Last edit: August 11, 2012, 08:21:14 AM by Phinnaeus Gage
 #167

I just realized that this is you (far left):
Congratulations Phinn, outstanding detective work. You however missed that I'm visible and hearable on the video recordings as well: http://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Project:Bitcoin/Bitcoin_Weekend_2011#Recordings.
lonelyminer, I think you missed the point. Since when does Bruno believe that someone is who he actually is?

I'm not sure what all the fuss is about, for all I did was make a comment on a recent find that is NOT part of any ongoing  investigations. Please accept my apology if you somehow took it the wrong way.

Later, bud.

~Bruno~
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August 09, 2012, 04:29:22 PM
 #168

Any updates?

Bitcoinica still has not given me 50% of my claim of 600 BTC
INTERSANGO can go down with bitcoinica for abandoning customers
Alberto Armandi is a SCAMMER
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August 10, 2012, 09:39:21 AM
 #169

please contribute relevant information: how is the status of the fiat money return?

Doing that. Finishing by next week.


Zhou, the week is coming to an end. What is the status regarding the return of stolen funds?
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August 10, 2012, 09:31:43 PM
 #170

on and on this goes. what a waste of time. am i ever going to get my money back?

wendon (or whoever is supposed to refund my money now) my screen name here matches my bitcoinica id.

put me on the list for a refund please. i was marked as accurate.



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August 10, 2012, 09:58:48 PM
 #171

on and on this goes. what a waste of time. am i ever going to get my money back?

wendon (or whoever is supposed to refund my money now) my screen name here matches my bitcoinica id.

put me on the list for a refund please. i was marked as accurate.




I'm sure that no matter what has already been posted Tihan is still trying to find a means of resolving this without putting Bitcoinica into liquidation, but if the partnership does end up being liquidated those wishing to make a claim will have to do so directly to the liquidator using the appropriate claim form.



All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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August 12, 2012, 09:58:42 AM
 #172

Is there any updates?

16SvwJtQET7mkHZFFbJpgPaDA1Pxtmbm5P
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August 12, 2012, 01:13:09 PM
 #173

please contribute relevant information: how is the status of the fiat money return?

Doing that. Finishing by next week.


Zhou, the week is coming to an end. What is the status regarding the return of stolen funds?
Zhou: one week is over - where is the update?

I openly boycott the Bitcoinica Consultancy team or Intersango: Donald Norman, Patrick Strateman and Amir Taaki
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August 12, 2012, 07:07:32 PM
 #174

Anybody want to make book on when the first restitution in this matter will be made?  My money would be on the 11th of Never.

Why bother Zhou about this? He and Notorious Relic Dealer Chen are happily sitting in a cave counting the coins they have fleeced you of, while the Gwailo Clown Patrol is stuck holding the bag and looking more and more pathetic by the day. Realize that with the big dogs throwing this into Court in California, no liquidator is going to be able to disburse a single satoshi, penny or euro-cent in recovery until that matter is finished, and that will be years and a whole lot more dollars that the Intersango Gango can come up with from now.
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August 12, 2012, 09:51:16 PM
Last edit: August 12, 2012, 11:49:35 PM by repentance
 #175

Anybody want to make book on when the first restitution in this matter will be made?  My money would be on the 11th of Never.

Why bother Zhou about this? He and Notorious Relic Dealer Chen are happily sitting in a cave counting the coins they have fleeced you of, while the Gwailo Clown Patrol is stuck holding the bag and looking more and more pathetic by the day. Realize that with the big dogs throwing this into Court in California, no liquidator is going to be able to disburse a single satoshi, penny or euro-cent in recovery until that matter is finished, and that will be years and a whole lot more dollars that the Intersango Gango can come up with from now.

A liquidator doesn't have to wait until foreign legal action is settled.  They'll distribute the estate in the manner laid down by NZ law and after that no-one can pursue for any deficiency in NZ (unless they can establish personal liability on the part of the directors, but the directors have no known NZ assets anyway), but creditors can still pursue deficiencies in other jurisdictions.  

It's worth noting that the creditors' petition doesn't seek to have a lien placed on Bitcoinica's MtGox or bank accounts.

On another note, I've just been on the phone with NZ's Insolvency and Trustee Service who confirmed that there are no barriers to unsecured overseas creditors lodging claims in a New Zealand company liquidation (including a limited partnership liquidation).

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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August 14, 2012, 04:06:19 AM
 #176

Hi all and sorry for the wait.

I can confirm that as of last night all the funds Zhou promised to retrieve (approx. $100,000 USD and 20,000 BTC) have been returned to Bitcoinica, LP's MtGox account. The receivership and liquidation process is underway and I'll post updates here as things move forward.

Best,
Patrick
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August 14, 2012, 04:09:58 AM
 #177

It should also be made clear that a lot of funds are still missing.

Zhou,  I expect the hacker to come up with the missing funds,  or at the very least you to turn over all his contact details so the appropriate actions can be taken.

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August 14, 2012, 04:18:06 AM
 #178

Hi all and sorry for the wait.

I can confirm that as of last night all the funds Zhou promised to retrieve (approx. $100,000 USD and 20,000 BTC) have been returned to Bitcoinica, LP's MtGox account. The receivership and liquidation process is underway and I'll post updates here as things move forward.

Best,
Patrick

I thought Zhou promised the return of USD 140,000.

It's good to hear that a substantial amount of funds have been recovered and that this mess can now proceed to receivership and liquidation. It's unfortunate, however, that the perpetrator of the theft is still being shielded from legal consequence.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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August 14, 2012, 04:23:48 AM
 #179

Hi all and sorry for the wait.

I can confirm that as of last night all the funds Zhou promised to retrieve (approx. $100,000 USD and 20,000 BTC) have been returned to Bitcoinica, LP's MtGox account. The receivership and liquidation process is underway and I'll post updates here as things move forward.

Best,
Patrick

I thought Zhou promised the return of USD 140,000.

It's good to hear that a substantial amount of funds have been recovered and that this mess can now proceed to receivership and liquidation. It's unfortunate, however, that the perpetrator of the theft is still being shielded from legal consequence.

You are correct that Zhou stated $140,000. My understanding is that the additional $40,000 includes funds frozen (rightly so) at ArumXchange. I would hope that Zhou would cooperate with authorities in apprehending and prosecuting the hacker.
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August 14, 2012, 04:25:55 AM
 #180

Hi all and sorry for the wait.

I can confirm that as of last night all the funds Zhou promised to retrieve (approx. $100,000 USD and 20,000 BTC) have been returned to Bitcoinica, LP's MtGox account. The receivership and liquidation process is underway and I'll post updates here as things move forward.

Best,
Patrick

Ok, so 20kBTCs almost covers Roger Ver's bitcoins.  So that's one down, almost.

bitcoin price cannot be sustained above $10k <---- scientific fact
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August 14, 2012, 04:32:27 AM
 #181

My point is that more funds were stolen by the hacker than what Zhou has promised to return.
The hacker needs to refund the total amount that was stolen ASAP.

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August 14, 2012, 04:40:43 AM
 #182

Hi all and sorry for the wait.

I can confirm that as of last night all the funds Zhou promised to retrieve (approx. $100,000 USD and 20,000 BTC) have been returned to Bitcoinica, LP's MtGox account. The receivership and liquidation process is underway and I'll post updates here as things move forward.

Best,
Patrick

So he kept $40 000 for himself or am I mistaken ?

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August 14, 2012, 04:44:50 AM
 #183


You are correct that Zhou stated $140,000. My understanding is that the additional $40,000 includes funds frozen (rightly so) at ArumXchange. I would hope that Zhou would cooperate with authorities in apprehending and prosecuting the hacker.

Zhou has misinformed you.  He has clearly stated here on multiple occasions that the $40,000 which AurumXchange has frozen is from a transaction he conducted on behalf of a friend and that those funds have nothing to do with the hacker.  AurumXchange has frozen an additional $5,000 in funds which are presumed to be related to the hack and which are in an account which Zhou claims was opened without his knowledge using an email account belonging to him.

I realise that your legal involvement does not extend beyond ensuring the recovered funds are secured until control of the assets is passed into receivership and liquidation, but I wanted to clarify for you why you may be asked questions about why the amount recovered is less than what was promised by Zhou.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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August 14, 2012, 04:51:30 AM
 #184


You are correct that Zhou stated $140,000. My understanding is that the additional $40,000 includes funds frozen (rightly so) at ArumXchange. I would hope that Zhou would cooperate with authorities in apprehending and prosecuting the hacker.

Zhou has misinformed you.  He has clearly stated here on multiple occasions that the $40,000 which AurumXchange has frozen is from a transaction he conducted on behalf of a friend and that those funds have nothing to do with the hacker.  AurumXchange has frozen an additional $5,000 in funds which are presumed to be related to the hack and which are in an account which Zhou claims was opened without his knowledge using an email account belonging to him.

I realise that your legal involvement does not extend beyond ensuring the recovered funds are secured until control of the assets is passed into receivership and liquidation, but I wanted to clarify for you why you may be asked questions about why the amount recovered is less than what was promised by Zhou.

Once again bitcoinica customers are screwed if those funds never get released.

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August 14, 2012, 04:58:37 AM
 #185

Once again bitcoinica customers are screwed if those funds never get released.

Which is why it's important that the true origin of those funds be determined.  It's not necessary for that to happen in order for receivership and liquidation to proceed, though.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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August 14, 2012, 05:05:44 AM
 #186


You are correct that Zhou stated $140,000. My understanding is that the additional $40,000 includes funds frozen (rightly so) at ArumXchange. I would hope that Zhou would cooperate with authorities in apprehending and prosecuting the hacker.

Zhou has misinformed you.  He has clearly stated here on multiple occasions that the $40,000 which AurumXchange has frozen is from a transaction he conducted on behalf of a friend and that those funds have nothing to do with the hacker.  AurumXchange has frozen an additional $5,000 in funds which are presumed to be related to the hack and which are in an account which Zhou claims was opened without his knowledge using an email account belonging to him.

I realise that your legal involvement does not extend beyond ensuring the recovered funds are secured until control of the assets is passed into receivership and liquidation, but I wanted to clarify for you why you may be asked questions about why the amount recovered is less than what was promised by Zhou.

Thanks for the clarification, that is helpful.
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August 14, 2012, 05:43:50 AM
 #187

My point is that more funds were stolen by the hacker than what Zhou has promised to return.
The hacker needs to refund the total amount that was stolen ASAP.

But then his hacking will not have been profitable.  But seriously, I was trying to make a similar point, and I hope you end up getting as much back as possible whether voluntarily or from the lawsuit.  I wish you the best of luck.  You've done a tremendous amount of good for the project and it's really shitty to see you get screwed like this.

bitcoin price cannot be sustained above $10k <---- scientific fact
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August 14, 2012, 05:52:57 AM
 #188


You are correct that Zhou stated $140,000. My understanding is that the additional $40,000 includes funds frozen (rightly so) at ArumXchange. I would hope that Zhou would cooperate with authorities in apprehending and prosecuting the hacker.

Zhou has misinformed you.  He has clearly stated here on multiple occasions that the $40,000 which AurumXchange has frozen is from a transaction he conducted on behalf of a friend and that those funds have nothing to do with the hacker.  AurumXchange has frozen an additional $5,000 in funds which are presumed to be related to the hack and which are in an account which Zhou claims was opened without his knowledge using an email account belonging to him.

I realise that your legal involvement does not extend beyond ensuring the recovered funds are secured until control of the assets is passed into receivership and liquidation, but I wanted to clarify for you why you may be asked questions about why the amount recovered is less than what was promised by Zhou.

Yah, it's the friend story again. For being a bitcoiner, repetance, you seem to place an awful lot of fait in the current established system. Are you an accountant by any chance ?
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August 14, 2012, 06:25:06 AM
Last edit: August 14, 2012, 08:46:46 AM by repentance
 #189

Yah, it's the friend story again. For being a bitcoiner, repetance, you seem to place an awful lot of fait in the current established system. Are you an accountant by any chance ?

Business administration was my field for over thirty years.  I'm semi-retired now.  I don't necessarily put faith in the system, but I find it utterly absurd when people won't use the system to their advantage in instances where there are few other options.  

I'm sure Tihan would much rather have avoided receivership and liquidation, but the Bitcoinica drama needs to be brought to an end and pretty much the only remaining practical way do that is via some kind of formal insolvency.

I suspect Roger et al would prefer to avoid litigation and were hoping that filing a lawsuit would bring people to the negotiating table - but I'm sure they're willing to follow through with the lawsuit if that doesn't happen because it's ludicrous to just shrug your shoulders at the loss of over ~$400,000 and not try to recover it.

I also suspect that many of the people who've posted in these threads didn't believe Zhou's explanations for a minute but were willing to play along with the story as long as there was hope of the stolen funds being returned.

I don't believe that users are acting in their own best interests when time and time again they seek no redress against people/entities which have been responsible for substantial losses.  To date, there have been no meaningful consequences for those who've been responsible for losses of user funds - whether through criminal activity or incompetence.  As long as such losses are acceptable to the community and redress is not sought, Bitcoin services will become an increasingly attractive target for scammers and hackers alike, the losses will continue to mount, and that's going to have a very real impact on people's willingness to invest in and adopt Bitcoin.



All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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August 14, 2012, 08:44:30 AM
 #190


I don't believe that users are acting in their own best interests when time and time again they seek no redress against people/entities which have been responsible for substantial losses.  To date, there have been no meaningful consequences for those who've been responsible for losses of user funds - whether through criminal activity or incompetence.  As long as such losses are acceptable to the community and redress is not sought, Bitcoin services will become an increasingly attractive target for scammers and hackers alike and the losses will continue to mount and that's going to have a very real impact on people's willingness to invest in and adopt Bitcoin.


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August 14, 2012, 01:34:46 PM
 #191

I'm pleased that my threat of bringing him to justice forced Zhou Tong to refund.  We actually held off on engaging the PI once he made the announcement he was returning the majority of funds.  But the relationship is now in place and we WILL hold ZT accountable if he does not return the remaining funds soon.

According to ZT himself, the $40K being held is from personal funds, so he has no reason not to refund the rest of the stolen money.

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August 14, 2012, 03:03:33 PM
 #192

I'm pleased that my threat of bringing him to justice forced Zhou Tong to refund.
You appear to be confusing correlation with causation.
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August 14, 2012, 03:06:14 PM
 #193

I'm pleased that my threat of bringing him to justice forced Zhou Tong to refund.
You appear to be confusing correlation with causation.
Very much so.

Aside - I love the mouseover text on the page: "Correlation doesn't imply causation, but it does waggle its eyebrows suggestively and gesture furtively while mouthing 'look over there'." Grin

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August 14, 2012, 03:49:04 PM
 #194

Hi all and sorry for the wait.

I can confirm that as of last night all the funds Zhou promised to retrieve (approx. $100,000 USD and 20,000 BTC) have been returned to Bitcoinica, LP's MtGox account. The receivership and liquidation process is underway and I'll post updates here as things move forward.

Best,
Patrick
Hi Patrick, please could you answer the question myself and others have asked repeatedly: What/Who has given you the legal authority to take custody of these stolen goods? As I'm sure you can tell, I really would like a clear and full answer on this.


Zhou,  I expect the hacker to come up with the missing funds,  or at the very least you to turn over all his contact details so the appropriate actions can be taken.
As a matter of justice, decency and deterrent, Zhou should turn over any and all of "Chens" details regardless of wether the funds are returned. The theif needs to be hunted down and brought to justice, otherwise the community invites more thefts.


BB.
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August 14, 2012, 04:00:20 PM
 #195

Hi all and sorry for the wait.

I can confirm that as of last night all the funds Zhou promised to retrieve (approx. $100,000 USD and 20,000 BTC) have been returned to Bitcoinica, LP's MtGox account. The receivership and liquidation process is underway and I'll post updates here as things move forward.

Best,
Patrick
Hi Patrick, please could you answer the question myself and others have asked repeatedly: What/Who has given you the legal authority to take custody of these stolen goods? As I'm sure you can tell, I really would like a clear and full answer on this.

Even if he doesn't have any such authority (and I'm not convinced that he doesn't), what are you going to do about it? Call the cops?

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August 14, 2012, 04:08:37 PM
 #196

As a matter of justice, decency and deterrent, Zhou should turn over any and all of "Chens" details regardless of wether the funds are returned. The theif needs to be hunted down and brought to justice, otherwise the community invites more thefts.
Actually it would be great if this behavior would invite other thiefs to also return the funds.
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August 14, 2012, 04:15:08 PM
 #197

Its important to know, because before everyone celebrates that funds have been "recovered", they should be sure that this person who claims to be legally capable and permitted, is so. Additionally, is Patrick in any way involved in any of the ongoing legal investigations?

The implications of the answers are obvious and critical to whether any money actually gets back into the wallets of the victims.

aq - You are either insane or complicit. The whole point of punishing the individual(s) is so that they are very much deterred from doing the same again. A theif has lost nothing if all he does is give back what he stole, therefore inviting more theft.


BB.
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August 14, 2012, 04:21:31 PM
 #198

aq - You are either insane or complicit. The whole point of punishing the individual(s) is so that they are very much deterred from doing the same again. A theif has lost nothing if all he does is give back what he stole, therefore inviting more theft.
Because punishing works perfectly, as we can see all over the world. There is not a single crime happening in the real world, because of punishing...  Huh
You must be living in some fantasy world, wake up and face reality.
Bitcoin is money, and there will always be someone who tries to steal it, regardless of punishment.
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August 14, 2012, 04:25:22 PM
 #199

I'm not saying that things are perfect, so stop straw-manning to defend your ridiculous concept. Anyone who thinks that letting theives give back what they stole without actual punishment as a way of deterring and minimizing theft and losses, is clearly a fucking idiot.


BB.
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August 14, 2012, 04:33:32 PM
 #200

I'm not saying that things are perfect, so stop straw-manning to defend your ridiculous concept. Anyone who thinks that letting theives give back what they stole without actual punishment as a way of deterring and minimizing theft and losses, is clearly a fucking idiot.
If I have to choose between getting my funds back or get the thief into jail, I choose funds any day.
I am not that kind of human, that enjoys someone rotting in jail that much, that I would waste my funds on it. However, I see, that you are probably different than me.
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August 14, 2012, 04:40:50 PM
 #201

I'm not saying that things are perfect, so stop straw-manning to defend your ridiculous concept. Anyone who thinks that letting theives give back what they stole without actual punishment as a way of deterring and minimizing theft and losses, is clearly a fucking idiot.
If I have to choose between getting my funds back or get the thief into jail, I choose funds any day.
I am not that kind of human, that enjoys someone rotting in jail that much, that I would waste my funds on it. However, I see, that you are probably different than me.

Irregardless, you take away punishment, and there are no consequences.  Everyone would be free to try and steal and hack because nothing at all would happen to them.  Whether you believe it or not, the threat of punishment stops people from stealing.  ZT needs to be charged for the theft of half a million dollars, we are just waiting until he stops returning funds before we do it.

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August 14, 2012, 04:50:23 PM
 #202

If I have to choose between getting my funds back or get the thief into jail, I choose funds any day.
Forgetting for now that no one is asking you to choose, the fact that you would rather get back your own money than try to apprehend and deter the theif from stealing from others is at odds with the image you are trying to paint yourself with in your jibe against me (conscientious, fair, etc).

I am not that kind of human, that enjoys someone rotting in jail that much, that I would waste my funds on it. However, I see, that you are probably different than me.
Again you are straw-manning because you have no answer. I'm not a fan of prison at all, but you chose to assume otherwise.

Theif A - Takes everyone's money, is found out and returns it. Therefore both sides are back where they started.
Theif B - Takes everyone's money, is found out and returns it as well as receiving punishment (additional compensation, dispossession, rehab, restriction of freedom). Therefore the victims are where they started and the theif has at the very least been inconvenienced and at the most been reformed.

Which one do you think is more likely to steal again? Don't even think about straw-manning again or debating useless semantics, the fact is that there is no perfect solution to theft of BTC, but your proposed solution is more damaging if anything.


BB.
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August 14, 2012, 04:52:32 PM
 #203

Hi all and sorry for the wait.

I can confirm that as of last night all the funds Zhou promised to retrieve (approx. $100,000 USD and 20,000 BTC) have been returned to Bitcoinica, LP's MtGox account. The receivership and liquidation process is underway and I'll post updates here as things move forward.

Best,
Patrick
Hi Patrick, please could you answer the question myself and others have asked repeatedly: What/Who has given you the legal authority to take custody of these stolen goods? As I'm sure you can tell, I really would like a clear and full answer on this.


Zhou,  I expect the hacker to come up with the missing funds,  or at the very least you to turn over all his contact details so the appropriate actions can be taken.
As a matter of justice, decency and deterrent, Zhou should turn over any and all of "Chens" details regardless of wether the funds are returned. The theif needs to be hunted down and brought to justice, otherwise the community invites more thefts.


BB.

Patrick Murck has repeatedly been asked to provide proof that he's able to practice federal law in all 50 states as he has claimed. I, personally, asked to see his shingle stating such, but to no prevail.

Until such certificate is produced, I am on record for stating that we have a classic case of the fox watching the hen house. The only reason some funds are being returned is to hopefully take the heat off, coupled with the hope that nobody digs deeper into the background of all those involved. I'm sorry, but a Linkedin page doesn't cut it for me, for I can easily be a lawyer in five minutes, albeit under a different name and of somebody who's listed on The Bar and recently passed away. (to be clear, not saying that's the case, but that's how I would do it)

~Bruno~
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August 14, 2012, 05:09:47 PM
 #204

Well .. I see that shit-storm has again begun. I have 2 questions:
1)  there is still a database claim ?(the one where the filling of fields) \ "database is intact?" \And who now owns base?
2) If the money "found" (magically returned), I think that they did not disappear at all, likewise, need to "return" the database of trade (which is "erased" "hacker") \This database also "hackers"magically returned)?\

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August 14, 2012, 05:18:40 PM
 #205

If I have to choose between getting my funds back or get the thief into jail, I choose funds any day.
Forgetting for now that no one is asking you to choose, the fact that you would rather get back your own money than try to apprehend and deter the theif from stealing from others is at odds with the image you are trying to paint yourself with in your jibe against me (conscientious, fair, etc).

I am not that kind of human, that enjoys someone rotting in jail that much, that I would waste my funds on it. However, I see, that you are probably different than me.
Again you are straw-manning because you have no answer. I'm not a fan of prison at all, but you chose to assume otherwise.

Theif A - Takes everyone's money, is found out and returns it. Therefore both sides are back where they started.
Theif B - Takes everyone's money, is found out and returns it as well as receiving punishment (additional compensation, dispossession, rehab, restriction of freedom). Therefore the victims are where they started and the theif has at the very least been inconvenienced and at the most been reformed.

Which one do you think is more likely to steal again? Don't even think about straw-manning again or debating useless semantics, the fact is that there is no perfect solution to theft of BTC, but your proposed solution is more damaging if anything.

BB.
You have to give the thief some incentive to return the funds.
Bitcoin is a global currency, but there are many countries out there, where a Bitcoin theft is not even illegal.
When the trustee for the payback (consultancy) holds the funds in some unsecured account, whom to you blame more?
When the trustee (consultancy) was also the cause for the hack before (unsecured email), do you still blame the thief?
Make no mistake, the thief is guilty, but it almost borders to keep something that been lost and found.
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August 14, 2012, 05:45:46 PM
 #206

Hi all and sorry for the wait.

I can confirm that as of last night all the funds Zhou promised to retrieve (approx. $100,000 USD and 20,000 BTC) have been returned to Bitcoinica, LP's MtGox account. The receivership and liquidation process is underway and I'll post updates here as things move forward.

Best,
Patrick
Hi Patrick, please could you answer the question myself and others have asked repeatedly: What/Who has given you the legal authority to take custody of these stolen goods? As I'm sure you can tell, I really would like a clear and full answer on this.

BB.

I don't have custody of the funds, they are all held at MtGox. This is widely known so I'm not sure what answer I could give that would satisfy you?

If you are asking me to divulge confidential information and break privilege, that is not going to happen.

If you are concerned about who can exercise control over the funds, I can clearly state that I do not have any control over or access to the funds. They are frozen at MtGox pending formal procedures.

Best,
Patrick
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August 14, 2012, 08:48:27 PM
Last edit: August 15, 2012, 12:45:32 AM by repentance
 #207

Even if he doesn't have any such authority (and I'm not convinced that he doesn't), what are you going to do about it? Call the cops?

New Zealand insolvency law is quite clear on the issue of creditors acting to secure assets.  Not only can they do so, but a creditor who acts to secure assets for the benefit of all creditors becomes a preferential creditor and is entitled to have both their costs in securing the assets and the whole of their claim given preference over other creditors.  So Wendon as a creditor most certainly had the legal right to retain Patrick to help with the securing of assets.  Tihan has also stated that Wendon will be making its own entitlement under receivership available to other creditors in liquidation.

Quite separately, Wendon as the limited partner of Bitcoinica LP is legally allowed to participate in a limited range of "safe harbour" management activities - one of those activities relates to dissolving the partnership.  Given the circumstances under which the partnership broke down, not only is it unlikely that it would be found Wendon acted improperly in attempting to secure the assets of Bitcoinica LP, it's likely it would be found that they had a positive obligation to do so.

People are understandably cynical, but neither Tihan nor Patrick Murck is in a position where false statements regarding Bitcoinica assets will be without consequence.  It is absolutely in their best legal interests that this whole clusterfuck proceed to receivership and liquidation as soon as possible.  The moment a liquidator is appointed, they assume total control over all assets - that the assets remain frozen on MtGox until that happens is the best option for users and Bitcoinica principals alike.

If it helps, a liquidator is required to establish the cause of business failure and whether or not any of the principals have acted in a manner which gives rise to personal liability.  If the actions of the principals rise to the level of criminal behaviour, the liquidator is obligated to report that to the appropriate authority (usually the Serious Fraud Unit, who'll then decide on the most appropriate form of criminal investigation).  Any creditor claiming in liquidation can raise concerns with the liquidator and provide additional information to the liquidator.  An initial report is sent to all creditors by the liquidator early in the liquidation process, so there's definitely an opportunity for creditors to have input if they believe the liquidator has been misled or is ignoring important issues.  It's even possible to apply to a court to have the appointed liquidator replaced if creditors are unhappy with the liquidator's performance.  

There's a hell of a shit-storm developing in the Bitcoin conference thread at the moment.  


All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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August 15, 2012, 12:33:53 AM
 #208

As always thank Repentance for these insightful posts.

...
There's a hell of a shit-storm developing in the Bitcoin conference thread at the moment.  

And these are the posts that started it.
oh fuck off. Name me one instance where I lied, or conducted myself improperly. Point them to me. It was me who made public all the emails, released publically all the documents/agreements, released the sourcecode .......
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=67199.msg1099607#msg1099607
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=67199.msg1099851#msg1099851
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August 15, 2012, 01:11:46 AM
 #209

As always thank Repentance for these insightful posts.

...
There's a hell of a shit-storm developing in the Bitcoin conference thread at the moment.  

And these are the posts that started it.
oh fuck off. Name me one instance where I lied, or conducted myself improperly. Point them to me. It was me who made public all the emails, released publically all the documents/agreements, released the sourcecode .......
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=67199.msg1099607#msg1099607
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=67199.msg1099851#msg1099851

Has Patrick withdrawn as a guest speaker?  If not, I cannot imagine any way that his presentation will not end badly. 

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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August 15, 2012, 01:16:54 AM
 #210

if he does someone throw a shoe @ his face.....

Bitcoinica still has not given me 50% of my claim of 600 BTC
INTERSANGO can go down with bitcoinica for abandoning customers
Alberto Armandi is a SCAMMER
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August 15, 2012, 01:48:18 AM
 #211

Jesus, Mary and Joseph!! Are any of the Intersango Gango still thinking that there is some possible benefit to them standing up and presenting in London? Seriously, take a hint boys, you need to let the thermonuclear fires die down a bit, you are painted with the worst scandal and the greatest example of incompetence in the history of bitcoinage, and you really think you have something constructive to offer? No, you don't. Leave your donation to subsidize the event, show up and learn from listening to all the people who are NOT gigantic cluster fuck-ups and did not drop their pants to either A:) get fleeced by a 17 fraudster; or B) try to fleece selfsame 17 year old out of his business under the guise of being the white hat saviors. Either way you screwed up, and nothing, absolutely nothing you have to say in a public forum can help.
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August 15, 2012, 02:07:50 AM
 #212

I'm pleased that my threat of bringing him to justice forced Zhou Tong to refund.  We actually held off on engaging the PI once he made the announcement he was returning the majority of funds.  But the relationship is now in place and we WILL hold ZT accountable if he does not return the remaining funds soon.

According to ZT himself, the $40K being held is from personal funds, so he has no reason not to refund the rest of the stolen money.

Your stalking and threats of violence did nothing but complicate this matter.  As Zhou Tong valiantly fights to recover money from the thief for the benefit of the community he simultaneously is having to watch his back against that very ungrateful community as they attempt to bite the hand that feeds them.  

I, for one, am thankful that someone like Zhou Tong is there to stand up for justice and fight against the theft of funds.  As for those who think he is a criminal, I can only say one thing, "There are conditions worse than being unable to see, and that is imagining one sees."


"Money is like manure: Spread around, it helps things grow. Piled up in one place, it just stinks."
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August 15, 2012, 02:09:47 AM
 #213

I'm pleased that my threat of bringing him to justice forced Zhou Tong to refund.  We actually held off on engaging the PI once he made the announcement he was returning the majority of funds.  But the relationship is now in place and we WILL hold ZT accountable if he does not return the remaining funds soon.

According to ZT himself, the $40K being held is from personal funds, so he has no reason not to refund the rest of the stolen money.

Your stalking and threats of violence did nothing but complicate this matter.  As Zhou Tong valiantly fights to recover money from the thief for the benefit of the community he simultaneously is having to watch his back against that very ungrateful community as they attempt to bite the hand that feeds them.  

I, for one, am thankful that someone like Zhou Tong is there to stand up for justice and fight against the theft of funds.  As for those who think he is a criminal, I can only say one thing, "There are conditions worse than being unable to see, and that is imagining one sees."



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August 15, 2012, 04:44:16 AM
 #214

I'm pleased that my threat of bringing him to justice forced Zhou Tong to refund.  We actually held off on engaging the PI once he made the announcement he was returning the majority of funds.  But the relationship is now in place and we WILL hold ZT accountable if he does not return the remaining funds soon.

According to ZT himself, the $40K being held is from personal funds, so he has no reason not to refund the rest of the stolen money.

Your stalking and threats of violence did nothing but complicate this matter.  As Zhou Tong valiantly fights to recover money from the thief for the benefit of the community he simultaneously is having to watch his back against that very ungrateful community as they attempt to bite the hand that feeds them.  

I, for one, am thankful that someone like Zhou Tong is there to stand up for justice and fight against the theft of funds.  As for those who think he is a criminal, I can only say one thing, "There are conditions worse than being unable to see, and that is imagining one sees."


To Zhou Tong (serious and just in case you do exist):

Don't take any treats serious, but do keep in the back of your mind that they exist, otherwise it will consume you. I've recently been threatened, but have paid it no mind, because if they were serious they would have kept their effin' trap shut. Therefore, just carry on as if you didn't have to look over your shoulder. BTW, where are you going to be at 2PM (local) tomorrow afternoon?  Grin (only kidding)

Later.

~Bruno~

PS: I hope you enjoy my 'walks into a bar' humor, albeit the majority have been jabs at your expense which, unfortunately, may continue, but the gist of this post is to honestly give you peace of mind if you've received any treats from here or other channels.

Stay Rucky!  Wink

Edit: I just realized that this is the Tihan thread and didn't mean to post off-topic, but I was reply to a previous post and felt it important to post what I did. Sorry, if I was off-base, all.

Peace.
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August 15, 2012, 06:30:36 PM
 #215

I don't have custody of the funds, they are all held at MtGox. This is widely known so I'm not sure what answer I could give that would satisfy you?

...

If you are concerned about who can exercise control over the funds, I can clearly state that I do not have any control over or access to the funds. They are frozen at MtGox pending formal procedures.
Then what sets you aside from any other poster on here? I was under the impression that you are acting on behalf of certain parties in a legal capacity? What are you actually here to do?

If you are asking me to divulge confidential information and break privilege, that is not going to happen.
I never suggested anything of the sort and you know it, so it is confusing to see you jump to this defense?

Please could you answer Bruno's questions?


BB.
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August 15, 2012, 07:16:37 PM
 #216

Bitcoin is a global currency, but there are many countries out there, where a Bitcoin theft is not even illegal.

Really? Feel free to name one. Anything that can be shown to "have value" (utility) is usually illegal to remove from another person's control against their will - there have been plenty of court decisions in various parts of the world to that effect over the years. Including "virtual Internet stuffz".

repentance
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August 15, 2012, 07:25:40 PM
 #217

Bitcoin is a global currency, but there are many countries out there, where a Bitcoin theft is not even illegal.

Really? Feel free to name one. Anything that can be shown to "have value" (utility) is usually illegal to remove from another person's control against their will - there have been plenty of court decisions in various parts of the world to that effect over the years. Including "virtual Internet stuffz".



Technically, it's not even necessary for an item to have value in order for appropriating it without the owner's consent to be a criminal offence.  Where value comes into play is when compensation is sought through civil means.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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August 15, 2012, 08:29:29 PM
 #218

Bitcoin is a global currency, but there are many countries out there, where a Bitcoin theft is not even illegal.

Really? Feel free to name one. Anything that can be shown to "have value" (utility) is usually illegal to remove from another person's control against their will - there have been plenty of court decisions in various parts of the world to that effect over the years. Including "virtual Internet stuffz".



Technically, it's not even necessary for an item to have value in order for appropriating it without the owner's consent to be a criminal offence.  Where value comes into play is when compensation is sought through civil means.

I agree. The often repeated BS that there's no law against bitcoin theft hurts common and legal sense.

But in practice there are difficulties, like having to prove possession first, and pursuing theft of bitcoins in court may be harder than more physical crimes.

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August 15, 2012, 08:45:55 PM
 #219

I agree. The often repeated BS that there's no law against bitcoin theft hurts common and legal sense.

But in practice there are difficulties, like having to prove possession first, and pursuing theft of bitcoins in court may be harder than more physical crimes.

People have been prosecuted for the theft of virtual items on Habbo Hotel before and there's a pretty solid list of prosecutions for computer intrusions and data theft/destruction (even if you don't regard BTC as an "item", it can certainly be regarded as data).

I think where difficulty might arise is in jurisdictions which look to specific laws rather than over-arching principles of law.  Many nations have existing laws which can easily be interpreted to include e-related issues and so there's been no rush to enact legislation which specifically deals with e-issues.  There may be other jurisdictions in which such issues can't be dealt with in the absence of specific legislation related to e-property and e-commerce.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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August 15, 2012, 09:29:10 PM
 #220

"bitcoin is just monopoly money" is such an old scammer motto, I've heard it from virtually every known scammer out there. How convenient.


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August 15, 2012, 09:51:38 PM
 #221

Funny thing is, steal enough actual monopoly money and legal consequences might follow. The surprising thing to me is how many people seem to think virtual items are still completely nebulous to legal principles.