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Author Topic: [ANN] Bitcoinica Consultancy abandons customers. Bitcoinica to enter Liquidation  (Read 54561 times)
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August 14, 2012, 04:40:50 PM
 #201

I'm not saying that things are perfect, so stop straw-manning to defend your ridiculous concept. Anyone who thinks that letting theives give back what they stole without actual punishment as a way of deterring and minimizing theft and losses, is clearly a fucking idiot.
If I have to choose between getting my funds back or get the thief into jail, I choose funds any day.
I am not that kind of human, that enjoys someone rotting in jail that much, that I would waste my funds on it. However, I see, that you are probably different than me.

Irregardless, you take away punishment, and there are no consequences.  Everyone would be free to try and steal and hack because nothing at all would happen to them.  Whether you believe it or not, the threat of punishment stops people from stealing.  ZT needs to be charged for the theft of half a million dollars, we are just waiting until he stops returning funds before we do it.

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August 14, 2012, 04:50:23 PM
 #202

If I have to choose between getting my funds back or get the thief into jail, I choose funds any day.
Forgetting for now that no one is asking you to choose, the fact that you would rather get back your own money than try to apprehend and deter the theif from stealing from others is at odds with the image you are trying to paint yourself with in your jibe against me (conscientious, fair, etc).

I am not that kind of human, that enjoys someone rotting in jail that much, that I would waste my funds on it. However, I see, that you are probably different than me.
Again you are straw-manning because you have no answer. I'm not a fan of prison at all, but you chose to assume otherwise.

Theif A - Takes everyone's money, is found out and returns it. Therefore both sides are back where they started.
Theif B - Takes everyone's money, is found out and returns it as well as receiving punishment (additional compensation, dispossession, rehab, restriction of freedom). Therefore the victims are where they started and the theif has at the very least been inconvenienced and at the most been reformed.

Which one do you think is more likely to steal again? Don't even think about straw-manning again or debating useless semantics, the fact is that there is no perfect solution to theft of BTC, but your proposed solution is more damaging if anything.


BB.
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August 14, 2012, 04:52:32 PM
 #203

Hi all and sorry for the wait.

I can confirm that as of last night all the funds Zhou promised to retrieve (approx. $100,000 USD and 20,000 BTC) have been returned to Bitcoinica, LP's MtGox account. The receivership and liquidation process is underway and I'll post updates here as things move forward.

Best,
Patrick
Hi Patrick, please could you answer the question myself and others have asked repeatedly: What/Who has given you the legal authority to take custody of these stolen goods? As I'm sure you can tell, I really would like a clear and full answer on this.


Zhou,  I expect the hacker to come up with the missing funds,  or at the very least you to turn over all his contact details so the appropriate actions can be taken.
As a matter of justice, decency and deterrent, Zhou should turn over any and all of "Chens" details regardless of wether the funds are returned. The theif needs to be hunted down and brought to justice, otherwise the community invites more thefts.


BB.

Patrick Murck has repeatedly been asked to provide proof that he's able to practice federal law in all 50 states as he has claimed. I, personally, asked to see his shingle stating such, but to no prevail.

Until such certificate is produced, I am on record for stating that we have a classic case of the fox watching the hen house. The only reason some funds are being returned is to hopefully take the heat off, coupled with the hope that nobody digs deeper into the background of all those involved. I'm sorry, but a Linkedin page doesn't cut it for me, for I can easily be a lawyer in five minutes, albeit under a different name and of somebody who's listed on The Bar and recently passed away. (to be clear, not saying that's the case, but that's how I would do it)

~Bruno~
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August 14, 2012, 05:09:47 PM
 #204

Well .. I see that shit-storm has again begun. I have 2 questions:
1)  there is still a database claim ?(the one where the filling of fields) \ "database is intact?" \And who now owns base?
2) If the money "found" (magically returned), I think that they did not disappear at all, likewise, need to "return" the database of trade (which is "erased" "hacker") \This database also "hackers"magically returned)?\

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August 14, 2012, 05:18:40 PM
 #205

If I have to choose between getting my funds back or get the thief into jail, I choose funds any day.
Forgetting for now that no one is asking you to choose, the fact that you would rather get back your own money than try to apprehend and deter the theif from stealing from others is at odds with the image you are trying to paint yourself with in your jibe against me (conscientious, fair, etc).

I am not that kind of human, that enjoys someone rotting in jail that much, that I would waste my funds on it. However, I see, that you are probably different than me.
Again you are straw-manning because you have no answer. I'm not a fan of prison at all, but you chose to assume otherwise.

Theif A - Takes everyone's money, is found out and returns it. Therefore both sides are back where they started.
Theif B - Takes everyone's money, is found out and returns it as well as receiving punishment (additional compensation, dispossession, rehab, restriction of freedom). Therefore the victims are where they started and the theif has at the very least been inconvenienced and at the most been reformed.

Which one do you think is more likely to steal again? Don't even think about straw-manning again or debating useless semantics, the fact is that there is no perfect solution to theft of BTC, but your proposed solution is more damaging if anything.

BB.
You have to give the thief some incentive to return the funds.
Bitcoin is a global currency, but there are many countries out there, where a Bitcoin theft is not even illegal.
When the trustee for the payback (consultancy) holds the funds in some unsecured account, whom to you blame more?
When the trustee (consultancy) was also the cause for the hack before (unsecured email), do you still blame the thief?
Make no mistake, the thief is guilty, but it almost borders to keep something that been lost and found.
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August 14, 2012, 05:45:46 PM
 #206

Hi all and sorry for the wait.

I can confirm that as of last night all the funds Zhou promised to retrieve (approx. $100,000 USD and 20,000 BTC) have been returned to Bitcoinica, LP's MtGox account. The receivership and liquidation process is underway and I'll post updates here as things move forward.

Best,
Patrick
Hi Patrick, please could you answer the question myself and others have asked repeatedly: What/Who has given you the legal authority to take custody of these stolen goods? As I'm sure you can tell, I really would like a clear and full answer on this.

BB.

I don't have custody of the funds, they are all held at MtGox. This is widely known so I'm not sure what answer I could give that would satisfy you?

If you are asking me to divulge confidential information and break privilege, that is not going to happen.

If you are concerned about who can exercise control over the funds, I can clearly state that I do not have any control over or access to the funds. They are frozen at MtGox pending formal procedures.

Best,
Patrick
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August 14, 2012, 08:48:27 PM
 #207

Even if he doesn't have any such authority (and I'm not convinced that he doesn't), what are you going to do about it? Call the cops?

New Zealand insolvency law is quite clear on the issue of creditors acting to secure assets.  Not only can they do so, but a creditor who acts to secure assets for the benefit of all creditors becomes a preferential creditor and is entitled to have both their costs in securing the assets and the whole of their claim given preference over other creditors.  So Wendon as a creditor most certainly had the legal right to retain Patrick to help with the securing of assets.  Tihan has also stated that Wendon will be making its own entitlement under receivership available to other creditors in liquidation.

Quite separately, Wendon as the limited partner of Bitcoinica LP is legally allowed to participate in a limited range of "safe harbour" management activities - one of those activities relates to dissolving the partnership.  Given the circumstances under which the partnership broke down, not only is it unlikely that it would be found Wendon acted improperly in attempting to secure the assets of Bitcoinica LP, it's likely it would be found that they had a positive obligation to do so.

People are understandably cynical, but neither Tihan nor Patrick Murck is in a position where false statements regarding Bitcoinica assets will be without consequence.  It is absolutely in their best legal interests that this whole clusterfuck proceed to receivership and liquidation as soon as possible.  The moment a liquidator is appointed, they assume total control over all assets - that the assets remain frozen on MtGox until that happens is the best option for users and Bitcoinica principals alike.

If it helps, a liquidator is required to establish the cause of business failure and whether or not any of the principals have acted in a manner which gives rise to personal liability.  If the actions of the principals rise to the level of criminal behaviour, the liquidator is obligated to report that to the appropriate authority (usually the Serious Fraud Unit, who'll then decide on the most appropriate form of criminal investigation).  Any creditor claiming in liquidation can raise concerns with the liquidator and provide additional information to the liquidator.  An initial report is sent to all creditors by the liquidator early in the liquidation process, so there's definitely an opportunity for creditors to have input if they believe the liquidator has been misled or is ignoring important issues.  It's even possible to apply to a court to have the appointed liquidator replaced if creditors are unhappy with the liquidator's performance.  

There's a hell of a shit-storm developing in the Bitcoin conference thread at the moment.  


All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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August 15, 2012, 12:33:53 AM
 #208

As always thank Repentance for these insightful posts.

...
There's a hell of a shit-storm developing in the Bitcoin conference thread at the moment.  

And these are the posts that started it.
oh fuck off. Name me one instance where I lied, or conducted myself improperly. Point them to me. It was me who made public all the emails, released publically all the documents/agreements, released the sourcecode .......
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=67199.msg1099607#msg1099607
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=67199.msg1099851#msg1099851
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August 15, 2012, 01:11:46 AM
 #209

As always thank Repentance for these insightful posts.

...
There's a hell of a shit-storm developing in the Bitcoin conference thread at the moment.  

And these are the posts that started it.
oh fuck off. Name me one instance where I lied, or conducted myself improperly. Point them to me. It was me who made public all the emails, released publically all the documents/agreements, released the sourcecode .......
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=67199.msg1099607#msg1099607
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=67199.msg1099851#msg1099851

Has Patrick withdrawn as a guest speaker?  If not, I cannot imagine any way that his presentation will not end badly. 

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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August 15, 2012, 01:16:54 AM
 #210

if he does someone throw a shoe @ his face.....

Bitcoinica still has not given me 50% of my claim of 600 BTC
INTERSANGO can go down with bitcoinica for abandoning customers
Alberto Armandi is a SCAMMER
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August 15, 2012, 01:48:18 AM
 #211

Jesus, Mary and Joseph!! Are any of the Intersango Gango still thinking that there is some possible benefit to them standing up and presenting in London? Seriously, take a hint boys, you need to let the thermonuclear fires die down a bit, you are painted with the worst scandal and the greatest example of incompetence in the history of bitcoinage, and you really think you have something constructive to offer? No, you don't. Leave your donation to subsidize the event, show up and learn from listening to all the people who are NOT gigantic cluster fuck-ups and did not drop their pants to either A:) get fleeced by a 17 fraudster; or B) try to fleece selfsame 17 year old out of his business under the guise of being the white hat saviors. Either way you screwed up, and nothing, absolutely nothing you have to say in a public forum can help.


 
 
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August 15, 2012, 02:07:50 AM
 #212

I'm pleased that my threat of bringing him to justice forced Zhou Tong to refund.  We actually held off on engaging the PI once he made the announcement he was returning the majority of funds.  But the relationship is now in place and we WILL hold ZT accountable if he does not return the remaining funds soon.

According to ZT himself, the $40K being held is from personal funds, so he has no reason not to refund the rest of the stolen money.

Your stalking and threats of violence did nothing but complicate this matter.  As Zhou Tong valiantly fights to recover money from the thief for the benefit of the community he simultaneously is having to watch his back against that very ungrateful community as they attempt to bite the hand that feeds them.  

I, for one, am thankful that someone like Zhou Tong is there to stand up for justice and fight against the theft of funds.  As for those who think he is a criminal, I can only say one thing, "There are conditions worse than being unable to see, and that is imagining one sees."


"Money is like manure: Spread around, it helps things grow. Piled up in one place, it just stinks."
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August 15, 2012, 02:09:47 AM
 #213

I'm pleased that my threat of bringing him to justice forced Zhou Tong to refund.  We actually held off on engaging the PI once he made the announcement he was returning the majority of funds.  But the relationship is now in place and we WILL hold ZT accountable if he does not return the remaining funds soon.

According to ZT himself, the $40K being held is from personal funds, so he has no reason not to refund the rest of the stolen money.

Your stalking and threats of violence did nothing but complicate this matter.  As Zhou Tong valiantly fights to recover money from the thief for the benefit of the community he simultaneously is having to watch his back against that very ungrateful community as they attempt to bite the hand that feeds them.  

I, for one, am thankful that someone like Zhou Tong is there to stand up for justice and fight against the theft of funds.  As for those who think he is a criminal, I can only say one thing, "There are conditions worse than being unable to see, and that is imagining one sees."



I am batman

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August 15, 2012, 04:44:16 AM
 #214

I'm pleased that my threat of bringing him to justice forced Zhou Tong to refund.  We actually held off on engaging the PI once he made the announcement he was returning the majority of funds.  But the relationship is now in place and we WILL hold ZT accountable if he does not return the remaining funds soon.

According to ZT himself, the $40K being held is from personal funds, so he has no reason not to refund the rest of the stolen money.

Your stalking and threats of violence did nothing but complicate this matter.  As Zhou Tong valiantly fights to recover money from the thief for the benefit of the community he simultaneously is having to watch his back against that very ungrateful community as they attempt to bite the hand that feeds them.  

I, for one, am thankful that someone like Zhou Tong is there to stand up for justice and fight against the theft of funds.  As for those who think he is a criminal, I can only say one thing, "There are conditions worse than being unable to see, and that is imagining one sees."


To Zhou Tong (serious and just in case you do exist):

Don't take any treats serious, but do keep in the back of your mind that they exist, otherwise it will consume you. I've recently been threatened, but have paid it no mind, because if they were serious they would have kept their effin' trap shut. Therefore, just carry on as if you didn't have to look over your shoulder. BTW, where are you going to be at 2PM (local) tomorrow afternoon?  Grin (only kidding)

Later.

~Bruno~

PS: I hope you enjoy my 'walks into a bar' humor, albeit the majority have been jabs at your expense which, unfortunately, may continue, but the gist of this post is to honestly give you peace of mind if you've received any treats from here or other channels.

Stay Rucky!  Wink

Edit: I just realized that this is the Tihan thread and didn't mean to post off-topic, but I was reply to a previous post and felt it important to post what I did. Sorry, if I was off-base, all.

Peace.
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August 15, 2012, 06:30:36 PM
 #215

I don't have custody of the funds, they are all held at MtGox. This is widely known so I'm not sure what answer I could give that would satisfy you?

...

If you are concerned about who can exercise control over the funds, I can clearly state that I do not have any control over or access to the funds. They are frozen at MtGox pending formal procedures.
Then what sets you aside from any other poster on here? I was under the impression that you are acting on behalf of certain parties in a legal capacity? What are you actually here to do?

If you are asking me to divulge confidential information and break privilege, that is not going to happen.
I never suggested anything of the sort and you know it, so it is confusing to see you jump to this defense?

Please could you answer Bruno's questions?


BB.
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August 15, 2012, 07:16:37 PM
 #216

Bitcoin is a global currency, but there are many countries out there, where a Bitcoin theft is not even illegal.

Really? Feel free to name one. Anything that can be shown to "have value" (utility) is usually illegal to remove from another person's control against their will - there have been plenty of court decisions in various parts of the world to that effect over the years. Including "virtual Internet stuffz".

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August 15, 2012, 07:25:40 PM
 #217

Bitcoin is a global currency, but there are many countries out there, where a Bitcoin theft is not even illegal.

Really? Feel free to name one. Anything that can be shown to "have value" (utility) is usually illegal to remove from another person's control against their will - there have been plenty of court decisions in various parts of the world to that effect over the years. Including "virtual Internet stuffz".



Technically, it's not even necessary for an item to have value in order for appropriating it without the owner's consent to be a criminal offence.  Where value comes into play is when compensation is sought through civil means.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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August 15, 2012, 08:29:29 PM
 #218

Bitcoin is a global currency, but there are many countries out there, where a Bitcoin theft is not even illegal.

Really? Feel free to name one. Anything that can be shown to "have value" (utility) is usually illegal to remove from another person's control against their will - there have been plenty of court decisions in various parts of the world to that effect over the years. Including "virtual Internet stuffz".



Technically, it's not even necessary for an item to have value in order for appropriating it without the owner's consent to be a criminal offence.  Where value comes into play is when compensation is sought through civil means.

I agree. The often repeated BS that there's no law against bitcoin theft hurts common and legal sense.

But in practice there are difficulties, like having to prove possession first, and pursuing theft of bitcoins in court may be harder than more physical crimes.

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August 15, 2012, 08:45:55 PM
 #219

I agree. The often repeated BS that there's no law against bitcoin theft hurts common and legal sense.

But in practice there are difficulties, like having to prove possession first, and pursuing theft of bitcoins in court may be harder than more physical crimes.

People have been prosecuted for the theft of virtual items on Habbo Hotel before and there's a pretty solid list of prosecutions for computer intrusions and data theft/destruction (even if you don't regard BTC as an "item", it can certainly be regarded as data).

I think where difficulty might arise is in jurisdictions which look to specific laws rather than over-arching principles of law.  Many nations have existing laws which can easily be interpreted to include e-related issues and so there's been no rush to enact legislation which specifically deals with e-issues.  There may be other jurisdictions in which such issues can't be dealt with in the absence of specific legislation related to e-property and e-commerce.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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August 15, 2012, 09:29:10 PM
 #220

"bitcoin is just monopoly money" is such an old scammer motto, I've heard it from virtually every known scammer out there. How convenient.


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