Money is an imaginary concept, but humanity is enslaved by it

[Mikestang]

In most of the people's mind, money is a standard unit of value.

Religion is a much more imaginary concept and it enslaves many more people than money.

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[Cult]

Justice is also an imaginary concept, the fact something is imaginary doesn't mean it's necessarily bad.

[twn]

we just want more money.even we got what we want always we need something better. always something better than what we have. we are the slaves of modern time.

[Lauda]

In about 10 years im fairly certain that by then, most americans will see the fiat system for what it is and will be glad to accept bitcoin as an alternative to the corrupt system in place.

I don't see that happening. You just can't convince quite a big number of the average people. They stand for what they believe in, even if it is wrong. This is completely irrational and illogical, but so are people.   
We could see this change happen very quickly if the government told everyone that we're moving onto Bitcoin (because people.).
It's funny how people tend to complain about corruption, yet they pick the same people and don't try doing anything about it.

[BobK71]

I like this post a lot, but think some clarification is called for...

The major means by which the elites' issuance of currency and debt enslaves the populace is not by inflating financial asset prices (stocks, bonds, real estate, etc.) beyond the average person's affordability.  This is a side effect of their actions that they would rather avoid (but really can't.)  The reason they don't like it is that high asset prices can crash (especially since the assets are directly or indirectly supported artificially by central bank and government policy,) and when they do, everybody suffers, the elites included.

The most extreme cases of financial busts were the Great Depression and 2008 crisis, so far.  The elites would definitely not want a repeat.

The major means of enslavement is issuing money and debt to benefit themselves while financial stability lasts, and making the entire economy absorb the costs of the resulting long-term inflation and financial instability.  If you think about it, while confidence lasts, issuing debt is as good as a license to print money.  Politicians get re-elected by conjuring up "free" money to fund benefits and projects.  Bankers take a cut in the new debt they issue.

Another important point is that money's unique status among commodities (that it's always desired) is not a device of enslavement.  This is the core design of the monetary society, to facilitate its unique and irreplaceable role as a means of exchange.  The trouble only comes when the elites don't allow money's value to be determined by the free market, but use some form of public power to artificially prop up the value of the money that they issue.  (And the root cause of trouble is that the elites have quite personal incentives to maximize the issuance, and so the system can't possibly be stable, at least on a long term basis.)

[johnyj]

The trouble only comes when the elites don't allow money's value to be determined by the free market, but use some form of public power to artificially prop up the value of the money that they issue.

Money's value has an tendency to be regarded as a constant when people use fiat money as a unit of value

This should be called "The dependency for standard"

When you use a failed scale to measure the weight of your suitcase, you will accept whatever the reading the scale give you, since normally that scale is the only standard of weight that you have. Unless you have another scale to compare their result, you won't notice that the scale failed. In fact, even if you have another scale, you still won't know which scale failed

Similarly, if you compare USD and Euro, you can't tell if Euro's value is dropping or USD's value is rising, or both of them are rising/dropping at different speed

In a commercial based society, people need such a standard unit of value to do business. Because everything's value fluctuates, they turn to authorities to seek the required standard. However, authorities also have no idea what is the standard unit of value, but since people demand it, they invented fiat money to satisfy that need. In turn, they discoverd that this price stability usually holds by itself because people think that standard is from an authority. So as long as they maintain authoritative, they could print themselves lots of fiat money while still satisfy this need of price stability...And when they measure price level, they only need to exclude the price of those things that they buy, e.g. capital goods and debts

[freeyourmind]

The trouble only comes when the elites don't allow money's value to be determined by the free market, but use some form of public power to artificially prop up the value of the money that they issue.

Money's value has an tendency to be regarded as a constant when people use fiat money as a unit of value

This should be called "The dependency for standard"

When you use a failed scale to measure the weight of your suitcase, you will accept whatever the reading the scale give you, since normally that scale is the only standard of weight that you have. Unless you have another scale to compare their result, you won't notice that the scale failed. In fact, even if you have another scale, you still won't know which scale failed

Similarly, if you compare USD and Euro, you can't tell if Euro's value is dropping or USD's value is rising, or both of them are rising/dropping at different speed

In a commercial based society, people need such a standard unit of value to do business. Because everything's value fluctuates, they turn to authorities to seek the required standard. However, authorities also have no idea what is the standard unit of value, but since people demand it, they invented fiat money to satisfy that need. In turn, they discoverd that this price stability usually holds by itself because people think that standard is from an authority. So as long as they maintain authoritative, they could print themselves lots of fiat money while still satisfy this need of price stability...And when they measure price level, they only need to exclude the price of those things that they buy, e.g. capital goods and debts

Great points on the standard unit of value and relativity.  There's always a certain percentage of the population that is looking to scam money.  Dates back to "reeding" coins in in the 1700's in the states and probably even earlier in other parts of the world, where the mint started adding ridges to the side of a coin so that people couldn't skim precious metal (gold/silver) off the sides of the coin.  In the 1900's the scam artists began to control the money supply and started to counterfeit money legally.

I think that price stability only exists because the USD maintains global reserve currency status.  Other currencies have drifted into hyperinflation with overly aggressive monetary expansion.  

[BobK71]

In a commercial based society, people need such a standard unit of value to do business. Because everything's value fluctuates, they turn to authorities to seek the required standard. However, authorities also have no idea what is the standard unit of value, but since people demand it, they invented fiat money to satisfy that need. In turn, they discoverd that this price stability usually holds by itself because people think that standard is from an authority. So as long as they maintain authoritative, they could print themselves lots of fiat money while still satisfy this need of price stability...And when they measure price level, they only need to exclude the price of those things that they buy, e.g. capital goods and debts

There probably is an underlying need for the standardization of value provided by money.  But if and when money clearly buys less and less, people will notice and take evasive action (as happens frequently outside the "core" countries.)

There are a host of facilities used by issuers of paper money to hide the forces of inflation.  The reason Britain kept acquiring colonies was to manufacture demand for paper sterling by having captive governments use it for reserves.  On the eve of World War I, while publicly committed to the convertibility of sterling to gold, Britain held only 3% of the gold required to redeem the total issued paper.  In its day the US used military help for Cold War allies as bargaining chip to have them hold reserves in dollars (and ditto for oil-rich dictatorships.)  There is a reason the US military is present in dozens of countries.

There is also the mechanism of "exorbitant privilege" of reserve currencies, used by both Britain and the US during their respective hegemonies, effectively (via a certain pattern of global capital flows) to offload most of the economic pain and instability of currency and debt creation (in the dominant country) to the developing world.  This is a well-known phenomenon for economists.  And you wonder why there is resentment and terrorism (not that the latter can be justified, just that it is objectively the effect of what is essentially theft by finance.)

Today, deflation (as a result of the financial bust and debt overhang) among the middle and lower classes of the West is the mechanism by which currency retains its prestige and value.  And you wonder why there is growing inequality.  This is essentially the same thing as "exorbitant privilege," but working in a domestic setting.

[johnyj]

I think that price stability only exists because the USD maintains global reserve currency status.  Other currencies have drifted into hyperinflation with overly aggressive monetary expansion. 

Each country's citizen regard their own currency to be the standard of value. This is a habit they learned from their childhood. When EURUSD exchange rate drops, Germans will think that USD's value increased, while US people will think that Euro depreciated. The price level domestically normally won't change following the exchange rate change, but it will cause a profit/loss for enterprises doing international trades

I think this is because that when people are seeking authority's support, they normally won't go beyond the boarder. A foreign corrency is just too "unauthorized" for them, thus not suitable to measure value domestically

This is very centralized way of thinking, people unconsciously require a central authority to provide them with the unit of value. Could we find a better standard?

[aso118]

Each country's citizen regard their own currency to be the standard of value. This is a habit they learned from their childhood. When EURUSD exchange rate drops, Germans will think that USD's value increased, while US people will think that Euro depreciated. The price level domestically normally won't change following the exchange rate change, but it will cause a profit/loss for enterprises doing international trades

It depends on the country's trade deficit and how high the inflation is. If you have hyperinflation combined with high level of imports, the price increase will be transmitted to the local population at a fast rate.

[Darkblock]

Fiatmoney is the biggest scamcurrency ever. "Somebody" said: "Give me control of a nation's money
and I care not who makes the laws."

OP you re right. We are enslaved by it. Our economy, society and politic is designed to make the avg. joe always to strive for more and more (money)... for a handfull of people money is just a means to an end.. just digital(virtual) numbers.. Something non-existent in "reality"... But its too late now to change it... We can have interesting discussions and brainwaves, and the so called "aha-effect".. many of us might check whats happening behind the curtains.. But we won't ever be able to change anything... They control to much now. FED, EZB, the house of sauds, and the other mighty six.... They knew how to make it... sad truth. They placed the foundation stone to the world we are living in today... we are all just small gear wheels in a complex system. And they ARE the system......

[mrhelpful]

So bitcoin is our savior 

But I get the concept money though, cause years ago we used to have something called "barter" where you traded something for mine.

The reason we do have money, is to resolve this issue. Its why most people dont barter and now spend something that they want, and not have endless arguments that my watch is worth more then whatever you have as an example.

[thejaytiesto]

Fiatmoney is the biggest scamcurrency ever. "Somebody" said: "Give me control of a nation's money
and I care not who makes the laws."

OP you re right. We are enslaved by it. Our economy, society and politic is designed to make the avg. joe always to strive for more and more (money)... for a handfull of people money is just a means to an end.. just digital(virtual) numbers.. Something non-existent in "reality"... But its too late now to change it... We can have interesting discussions and brainwaves, and the so called "aha-effect".. many of us might check whats happening behind the curtains.. But we won't ever be able to change anything... They control to much now. FED, EZB, the house of sauds, and the other mighty six.... They knew how to make it... sad truth. They placed the foundation stone to the world we are living in today... we are all just small gear wheels in a complex system. And they ARE the system......

Indeed, the problem is it's an accepted scam.
Bitcoin is far superior to our lovely fiat system, and here's why:

http://antonopoulos.com/2014/03/02/failure-is-an-option/

[johnyj]

Each country's citizen regard their own currency to be the standard of value. This is a habit they learned from their childhood. When EURUSD exchange rate drops, Germans will think that USD's value increased, while US people will think that Euro depreciated. The price level domestically normally won't change following the exchange rate change, but it will cause a profit/loss for enterprises doing international trades

It depends on the country's trade deficit and how high the inflation is. If you have hyperinflation combined with high level of imports, the price increase will be transmitted to the local population at a fast rate.

The interesting thing is: As long as people unconsciously use domestic currency to measure value, there will not be inflation. Inflation does not rise following more money supply, more money supply will just make people work more and produce more. This is because in today's society, productivity is almost unlimited, only demand limit the production. When demand was artificially raised by the banks, the production will immediately increase to a point that even more goods than demanded are produced

Imagine that an enterprise suddenly received a large order from government/banks, he would happily expand his production and hire more people to produce more. It is very unlikely that he would keep his production scale and raise the price instead. And if he really did, the order would just fly to someone else. Unless all the merchant in the branch raise the price at the same time, they usually accept the order without change the price, in reality they even give discount to large orders

The only thing's price that can rise quickly are those with limited supply, like land. But anything with limited supply is usually regarded as asset thus not included in inflation statistics

[BobK71]

Fiatmoney is the biggest scamcurrency ever. "Somebody" said: "Give me control of a nation's money
and I care not who makes the laws."

OP you re right. We are enslaved by it. Our economy, society and politic is designed to make the avg. joe always to strive for more and more (money)... for a handfull of people money is just a means to an end.. just digital(virtual) numbers.. Something non-existent in "reality"... But its too late now to change it... We can have interesting discussions and brainwaves, and the so called "aha-effect".. many of us might check whats happening behind the curtains.. But we won't ever be able to change anything... They control to much now. FED, EZB, the house of sauds, and the other mighty six.... They knew how to make it... sad truth. They placed the foundation stone to the world we are living in today... we are all just small gear wheels in a complex system. And they ARE the system......

Things are not this bleak (or at least I hope!)  There are multiple ways this system can break down.  The system is inherently unstable, due to the incentives for the elites to maximize the issue of money and debt.

When it does break down, like a poker player in a large pot holding cards not good enough for the pot, the authorities can choose to bet big and hope others will fold, or fold.  Betting means eventually using political repression to supplement the financial repression, and has its problems in established democracies.  Folding means, probably, pegging currency to gold at a very high price (since gold is what central banks have.)  They would have suffered humiliation but they would at least keep their power and get their stability back.

Another potential problem of betting is that the world is getting more multi-polar compared to the Anglo-American centuries.  Will the rising powers continue to submit to the old system?  Henry Kissinger is supposed to have just written a "pessimistic" book on this topic.

[BobK71]

The interesting thing is: As long as people unconsciously use domestic currency to measure value, there will not be inflation. Inflation does not rise following more money supply, more money supply will just make people work more and produce more. This is because in today's society, productivity is almost unlimited, only demand limit the production. When demand was artificially raised by the banks, the production will immediately increase to a point that even more goods than demanded are produced

The Western authorities have been trying to get demand up for almost 7 years now, without much success.  The real reason they can't just keep applying and intensifying their stimulative tools (say, more "quantitative easing" or tax cuts or public spending) is that confidence in the money and debt they issue is already fragile.  Once confidence collapses (as these propped up assets tend to be stable, until they're not!) the authorities will lose a lot of their power.

Low consumer price inflation is helping them walk this tight rope.  Confidence in money and debt would be almost impossible to maintain otherwise.  Low inflation comes from global and Western domestic inequality.  Inequality deprives poorer countries and poorer people of money, so their desire for money makes them want to do a lot of work for low prices or at artificially low exchange rates.

But inequality feeds on itself.  Inequality means many people will work on frivolous products and services to serve the whims of rich countries and rich people.  Once there is any wind of another financial bust (as the system is financially unstable), the rich will readily cut back consumption, and many people will get poorer.  So the cycle continues.  Since this is socially unstable, some kind of seismic shift has to occur, one way or another, eventually.

The last time around, that seismic shift was World War II.  Now that major countries all have nuclear weapons, I don't know what will happen.

[GreenStox]

The interesting thing is: As long as people unconsciously use domestic currency to measure value, there will not be inflation. Inflation does not rise following more money supply, more money supply will just make people work more and produce more. This is because in today's society, productivity is almost unlimited, only demand limit the production. When demand was artificially raised by the banks, the production will immediately increase to a point that even more goods than demanded are produced

The Western authorities have been trying to get demand up for almost 7 years now, without much success.  The real reason they can't just keep applying and intensifying their stimulative tools (say, more "quantitative easing" or tax cuts or public spending) is that confidence in the money and debt they issue is already fragile.  Once confidence collapses (as these propped up assets tend to be stable, until they're not!) the authorities will lose a lot of their power.

Low consumer price inflation is helping them walk this tight rope.  Confidence in money and debt would be almost impossible to maintain otherwise.  Low inflation comes from global and Western domestic inequality.  Inequality deprives poorer countries and poorer people of money, so their desire for money makes them want to do a lot of work for low prices or at artificially low exchange rates.

But inequality feeds on itself.  Inequality means many people will work on frivolous products and services to serve the whims of rich countries and rich people.  Once there is any wind of another financial bust (as the system is financially unstable), the rich will readily cut back consumption, and many people will get poorer.  So the cycle continues.  Since this is socially unstable, some kind of seismic shift has to occur, one way or another, eventually.

The last time around, that seismic shift was World War II.  Now that major countries all have nuclear weapons, I don't know what will happen.

How about freedom? I know its a really untrendy stuff nowadays, but c'mon let's just try it once, i promise nobody will hate it once you get a taste of it.

How about we stop paying global banking maffia that print away our wealth, and governments that rob us with all these ever increasing taxes?

It's really time to try freedom too

[BobK71]

How about freedom? I know its a really untrendy stuff nowadays, but c'mon let's just try it once, i promise nobody will hate it once you get a taste of it.

How about we stop paying global banking maffia that print away our wealth, and governments that rob us with all these ever increasing taxes?

It's really time to try freedom too

Would love to!

IMO the ultimate, final, real problem is... us.  The "system" is actually a partnership between the financial and political elites; one couldn't survive long in current form without the other.  The political elite gain "free" political capital by issuing public debt (and often money too) but they need an innovative financial sector to dream up and issue financial assets that people will believe in (at least temporarily,) to suck up the money supply, or else the extra money and public debt would fuel inflation and expose their theft.  (One of the old classic innovations was the bank account -- when your money was earning interest as a "deposit," it's not out chasing goods and inflating prices.)

How does the government get very smart people to engage in the risky activity of banking (including the risk of being abandoned by the government when the going really gets tough?)  Offer them a share of the loot in the form of some kind of public guarantee of their debt, lax regulation (given the guarantees,) etc.  This is fundamentally why private banks end up profiting from taxpayer guarantees.

Since, in the West, we vote in the political elite, nothing will really change unless we wake up.  We could bump into some good policies by luck, but the elites would always get their pound of flesh eventually.  That is, unless we finally become aware, and add monetary management to the list of post-Enlightenment prohibitions against the state.

[Darkblock]

Fiatmoney is the biggest scamcurrency ever. "Somebody" said: "Give me control of a nation's money
and I care not who makes the laws."

OP you re right. We are enslaved by it. Our economy, society and politic is designed to make the avg. joe always to strive for more and more (money)... for a handfull of people money is just a means to an end.. just digital(virtual) numbers.. Something non-existent in "reality"... But its too late now to change it... We can have interesting discussions and brainwaves, and the so called "aha-effect".. many of us might check whats happening behind the curtains.. But we won't ever be able to change anything... They control to much now. FED, EZB, the house of sauds, and the other mighty six.... They knew how to make it... sad truth. They placed the foundation stone to the world we are living in today... we are all just small gear wheels in a complex system. And they ARE the system......

Things are not this bleak (or at least I hope!)  There are multiple ways this system can break down.  The system is inherently unstable, due to the incentives for the elites to maximize the issue of money and debt.

When it does break down, like a poker player in a large pot holding cards not good enough for the pot, the authorities can choose to bet big and hope others will fold, or fold.  Betting means eventually using political repression to supplement the financial repression, and has its problems in established democracies.  Folding means, probably, pegging currency to gold at a very high price (since gold is what central banks have.)  They would have suffered humiliation but they would at least keep their power and get their stability back.

Another potential problem of betting is that the world is getting more multi-polar compared to the Anglo-American centuries.  Will the rising powers continue to submit to the old system?  Henry Kissinger is supposed to have just written a "pessimistic" book on this topic.

As soon as the "financial system" breaks down, which would actually break (you/me) the citiciens of the world down and not the "power-holding organizations", we ll face horrific scenarios... It would actually be one of "their goals" and it would rise their power. Democrazy isn't what we think/hope it might be. Did you know: The global financial institutions and exchanges are trading more gold than the world holds in reserves.... ?? So virtually theres more gold in existence than in realities existence... "funny" enough. as i said: Sad truth.

[johnyj]

Technically, this slavery is self-imposed. If people can live without using fiat currency, then there will be no slavery. But it seems they'd rather have a unit of value and become the slave instead. In fact the slavery also comes from the fact that they are desperately dependent on the banks, so when banks failed, all their deposits will be gone, so banks must be bailed out

In a planned economy system like Soviet Union, the resources are allocated to each person equally without the need for money, thus this kind of slavery is not possible. But you have other kind of slavery from the communist governors, and you really don't know how much of your work went to the government, since most of your income are not salary but equally allocated food/residence/cloth. However, under such a system there is no motivation to improve, you get equally allocated resources no matter how hard you work

Is it possible to have a type of money without being enslaved?

To avoid slavery, this money must be created by a cost close to its face value, but then you have to keep the cost at a constant level to use this money as a universal standard of value. Since the productivity is always increasing, the cost tends to go down over time, to compensate for that, the supply should also shrink over time. From this point of view, the bitcoin design is on the right track