Money is an imaginary concept, but humanity is enslaved by it

[BobK71]

I'm afraid this won't work. If you somehow increase the awareness of humans at large, this should also increase the cunning of your "sociopaths" and their skills at fooling the general populace. So, in the end, we will most likely have absolutely the same result as we have today...

I wouldn't despair.  In the long run, history is the story of increasing equality, increasing awareness, and improved institutions to guard against abuse by the powerful.  2000 years ago we had real slavery, and 500 years ago the powerful could burn people at the stake for having the wrong sort of faith.  Sociopaths will always be around, and in fact their lives might become better with the general progress of living standards, but average people also enjoy better lives, and under better social structures.

The problem that bitcoin is attempting to solve (successfully or not) had its source in great economic progress: the Renaissance demonstrated tremendous economic potential for humankind, but soon afterwards, the financially savvy and those with state power figured out a way to collect a good piece of that wealth and power without doing real work, by manipulating money.  When these two forces worked together inside a genuinely advanced country, as during the British Empire and later in 20th-century US, the system seems to last forever.

But this too, will pass.

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[GreenStox]

I understand your point, and if people really select bitcoin, it will be like the free market as you described. But the reality is that average people still don't choose bitcoin, maybe never will, because of the fiat money's domination in people's life: As long as they unconsciously use fiat money to measure value, it means fiat money is already rooted deeply in their thoughts. The free competition phase has already passed long time ago

And now when fiat money is dominating, it will use all the possible tools to crash the bitcoin if it ever becomes some kind of threat, currently banks don't care since bitcoin is just too small

Nonsense, most people still dont even heard about bitcoin if i go out the street and ask 50 people of age 15-25 i bet 90% of then havent heard of bitcoin, even if they stay in front of the PC all day. (and the 15-25 age group is usually the most aware, you wont see 80 year olds mining bitcoin lol)

Most people dont even know what money is, you cant expect the whole world to jump in the uncertain boat of bitcoin in 6 short years?

They still obey, and they do what they are told to, if the government would tomorrow say that bitcoin is now the official currency , then they would use it, but otherwise it will be a slow process.

Friends need to tell friends, and there must be many merchants, even local barbers or ministores, to spread awareness, that accept bitcoin.

And that could take another 10-15 years, in normal pace, of course unless the fiat system collapses in the next 1-5 years (which is also likely), then it will be much faster 

[deisik]

I'm afraid this won't work. If you somehow increase the awareness of humans at large, this should also increase the cunning of your "sociopaths" and their skills at fooling the general populace. So, in the end, we will most likely have absolutely the same result as we have today...

I wouldn't despair.  In the long run, history is the story of increasing equality, increasing awareness, and improved institutions to guard against abuse by the powerful.  2000 years ago we had real slavery, and 500 years ago the powerful could burn people at the stake for having the wrong sort of faith.  Sociopaths will always be around, and in fact their lives might become better with the general progress of living standards, but average people also enjoy better lives, and under better social structures.

I wouldn't either, but surely not for the reasons you mentioned. We mostly don't have slavery by now since it is an inefficient form of economy at the present level of technology in the first place. Burning people at stake en masse is also economically counterproductive...

And I'm not certain about increasing equality

[GreenStox]

I wouldn't either, but surely not for the reasons you mentioned. We mostly don't have slavery by now since it is an inefficient form of economy at the present level of technology in the first place. Burning people at stake en masse is also economically counterproductive...

And I'm not certain about increasing equality

Most people are still dumb ,but the situation is favorable, the dogmatic world views are cripling and people start to become more peaceful in general.

Of course that can easily reverse, there is no permanent achievement in humanity, but i`m sure also our genetics have been improved in the last 2000 years.
I hope our tribal/primitive genes will be turned off from our DNA.

Other than that, hope that people will start to be not so ignorant.

[pereira4]

If you are born in a certain socioeconomical status, it's almost mission impossible to escalate up the hierarchical pyramid. This is the sad statistic. Only a few make it. For a Mike Tyson to exist, the remaining 99% stay poor stuck on some gettho. That's whats up.

[johnyj]

I understand your point, and if people really select bitcoin, it will be like the free market as you described. But the reality is that average people still don't choose bitcoin, maybe never will, because of the fiat money's domination in people's life: As long as they unconsciously use fiat money to measure value, it means fiat money is already rooted deeply in their thoughts. The free competition phase has already passed long time ago

And now when fiat money is dominating, it will use all the possible tools to crash the bitcoin if it ever becomes some kind of threat, currently banks don't care since bitcoin is just too small

Nonsense, most people still dont even heard about bitcoin if i go out the street and ask 50 people of age 15-25 i bet 90% of then havent heard of bitcoin, even if they stay in front of the PC all day. (and the 15-25 age group is usually the most aware, you wont see 80 year olds mining bitcoin lol)

Most people dont even know what money is, you cant expect the whole world to jump in the uncertain boat of bitcoin in 6 short years?

They still obey, and they do what they are told to, if the government would tomorrow say that bitcoin is now the official currency , then they would use it, but otherwise it will be a slow process.

Friends need to tell friends, and there must be many merchants, even local barbers or ministores, to spread awareness, that accept bitcoin.

And that could take another 10-15 years, in normal pace, of course unless the fiat system collapses in the next 1-5 years (which is also likely), then it will be much faster 

Most of the people are short sighted, the reason they accept internet is because they can get many ways of entertainment from it

But accepting bitcoin does not bring them any fun, and no extra income either, the only benefit they might get is from long term appreciation, which is only a concern for those who want to diversify their investment portfolio

This brings a chicken and egg problem: If average people does not benefit from bitcoin, thus have no motivation to acquire some, how could bitcoin become an attractive investment?

If they understand that fiat money is a scam, then they might consider other alternatives like gold or bitcoin. But in reality, the transition from gold based money creation to debt based money creation did not cause any chaos, it showed that almost no one cares about how fiat money is created, they only care about if price level is stable

Similarly, most of the people only cares if bitcoin can make them some quick fiat profit. There is no easy way to raise people's awareness above this threshold, unless something big like Cyprus hair-cut happens again

[johnyj]

If you are born in a certain socioeconomical status, it's almost mission impossible to escalate up the hierarchical pyramid. This is the sad statistic. Only a few make it. For a Mike Tyson to exist, the remaining 99% stay poor stuck on some gettho. That's whats up.

The purpose of decentralization is to make that structure flat, not hierarchical, thus there will be no centralized management, and no way to go higher since every one is at roughly the same height

[GreenStox]

Most of the people are short sighted, the reason they accept internet is because they can get many ways of entertainment from it

But accepting bitcoin does not bring them any fun, and no extra income either, the only benefit they might get is from long term appreciation, which is only a concern for those who want to diversify their investment portfolio

This brings a chicken and egg problem: If average people does not benefit from bitcoin, thus have no motivation to acquire some, how could bitcoin become an attractive investment?

If they understand that fiat money is a scam, then they might consider other alternatives like gold or bitcoin. But in reality, the transition from gold based money creation to debt based money creation did not cause any chaos, it showed that almost no one cares about how fiat money is created, they only care about if price level is stable

Similarly, most of the people only cares if bitcoin can make them some quick fiat profit. There is no easy way to raise people's awareness above this threshold, unless something big like Cyprus hair-cut happens again

You are out of line again. How can anybody not benefit from bitcoin?

Have you ever shopped online?

-An average online card based shopping has a 4-8% comission on it by start, with bitcoin its about 2-3 cents (0.0001-0.0002 BTC)
-An average online card based shopping takes 2-4 days, bitcoin takes 10 minutes
-Wire transfer shopping is even worse, up to 5% comission +25€, so if you want to buy a 0.5€ pencil online, you pay like 30€ for it.
-Card based shopping is full with frauds, and if you have like 2000€ on your bank account, the thief can easily rob it, and then it will take you 6-12 months of police and other legal procedures to recover the money (if it can be recovered).
-With bitcoin you can just put 0.5BTC on your "shopping address" and keep your other 100 BTC on a safe cold storage wallet, so even if somebody steals your wallet he gets away with less (more diversification & risk control with bitcoin)
-Bitcoin is available for minors too, in some countries 16 year old is already eligible for work, yet he cannot have his own bank account without parent agreement which is nonsense. If a 16 year old guy works online to get some extra cash in bitcoin, and he spends it wherever he wants, thats his money and the government should not restrict that at all.
-Banks are not the safest place to store money (see Cyprus govenrment confiscation, Pension looting and other governmental thefts that occur nowadays), your bitcoins on the otherhands are invulnerable to government theft.
-Bitcoin doesnt have global restrictions, open to P2P trading, I can sell p2p anything, otherwise if i would have bought it from a central store you need to pay VAT tax on it, p2p trading is not taxed, yet, and it's more efficient.
-Bitcoin doesn't discriminate racially or politically or religiously between users (see EU and USA embargoes on "enemy" countries)
-Bitcoin is free market trading, its monetary freedom, and capped supply, while fiat money is an inflated toilet paper money.
 and many more...

An average guy can easily understand this, dont need a 160 IQ to understand that the governmental-monetary system is highly flawed.

[johnyj]

Have you ever shopped online?

-An average online card based shopping has a 4-8% comission on it by start, with bitcoin its about 2-3 cents (0.0001-0.0002 BTC)
-An average online card based shopping takes 2-4 days, bitcoin takes 10 minutes
-Wire transfer shopping is even worse, up to 5% comission +25€, so if you want to buy a 0.5€ pencil online, you pay like 30€ for it.
-Card based shopping is full with frauds, and if you have like 2000€ on your bank account, the thief can easily rob it, and then it will take you 6-12 months of police and other legal procedures to recover the money (if it can be recovered).
-With bitcoin you can just put 0.5BTC on your "shopping address" and keep your other 100 BTC on a safe cold storage wallet, so even if somebody steals your wallet he gets away with less (more diversification & risk control with bitcoin)
-Bitcoin is available for minors too, in some countries 16 year old is already eligible for work, yet he cannot have his own bank account without parent agreement which is nonsense. If a 16 year old guy works online to get some extra cash in bitcoin, and he spends it wherever he wants, thats his money and the government should not restrict that at all.
-Banks are not the safest place to store money (see Cyprus govenrment confiscation, Pension looting and other governmental thefts that occur nowadays), your bitcoins on the otherhands are invulnerable to government theft.
-Bitcoin doesnt have global restrictions, open to P2P trading, I can sell p2p anything, otherwise if i would have bought it from a central store you need to pay VAT tax on it, p2p trading is not taxed, yet, and it's more efficient.
-Bitcoin doesn't discriminate racially or politically or religiously between users (see EU and USA embargoes on "enemy" countries)
-Bitcoin is free market trading, its monetary freedom, and capped supply, while fiat money is an inflated toilet paper money.
 and many more...

An average guy can easily understand this, dont need a 160 IQ to understand that the governmental-monetary system is highly flawed.

Yes, we all know these. But still, average Joe don't care, fiat money already become their standard of value since they were born, and as long as it works, they don't have enough motivation to switch to another totally unfamiliar system

True, bitcoin transaction fee is almost zero, but to exchange value in and out of bitcoin is not free, usually it costs much more than the 3-5% fee of credit cards, and it does not provide consumer protection like reversing the payment. So no clear advantage from payment point of view

The advantage is at long term storage and international remittance, which also requires user to have outstanding IT/Financial experiences in order to handle bitcoin security and exchange related risk

Fiat has established trust, and people are short sighted. Most importantly, because their income all comes in the form of fiat, they even fight to protect its value. Even banks printed money for future 100 years and bought everything valuable in the country, average people just don't care, as long as the price in supermarket and gas station does not rise. Of course they will gradually learn the truth from internet, but by the time they start to react, banks already bought the whole planet

[deisik]

Have you ever shopped online?

-An average online card based shopping has a 4-8% comission on it by start, with bitcoin its about 2-3 cents (0.0001-0.0002 BTC)
-An average online card based shopping takes 2-4 days, bitcoin takes 10 minutes
-Wire transfer shopping is even worse, up to 5% comission +25€, so if you want to buy a 0.5€ pencil online, you pay like 30€ for it.
-Card based shopping is full with frauds, and if you have like 2000€ on your bank account, the thief can easily rob it, and then it will take you 6-12 months of police and other legal procedures to recover the money (if it can be recovered).
-With bitcoin you can just put 0.5BTC on your "shopping address" and keep your other 100 BTC on a safe cold storage wallet, so even if somebody steals your wallet he gets away with less (more diversification & risk control with bitcoin)
-Bitcoin is available for minors too, in some countries 16 year old is already eligible for work, yet he cannot have his own bank account without parent agreement which is nonsense. If a 16 year old guy works online to get some extra cash in bitcoin, and he spends it wherever he wants, thats his money and the government should not restrict that at all.
-Banks are not the safest place to store money (see Cyprus govenrment confiscation, Pension looting and other governmental thefts that occur nowadays), your bitcoins on the otherhands are invulnerable to government theft.
-Bitcoin doesnt have global restrictions, open to P2P trading, I can sell p2p anything, otherwise if i would have bought it from a central store you need to pay VAT tax on it, p2p trading is not taxed, yet, and it's more efficient.
-Bitcoin doesn't discriminate racially or politically or religiously between users (see EU and USA embargoes on "enemy" countries)
-Bitcoin is free market trading, its monetary freedom, and capped supply, while fiat money is an inflated toilet paper money.
 and many more...

An average guy can easily understand this, dont need a 160 IQ to understand that the governmental-monetary system is highly flawed.

Yes, we all know these.

You obviously don't shop online, since that guy is spreading blatant disinformation (mildly speaking). I buy things online a few times a month, so I know what I'm talking about. My last online purchase was just two hours ago, and I paid with my bank card (MasterCard Platinum, which is free if I keep a deposit of around 1,000$ in the bank). The payment was literally instant (as always), I didn't have to wait at all (and this is the same for Visas and MasterCards which I have). I paid 0% commission, and I will even get 1% cash-back, which I am paid every month for my purchases by the bank. Regarding stealing money from a bank card, this is hardly possible since I set daily limits, and every transaction online should be confirmed by a code sent to my phone by my bank. By the way, wire transfer is also free of charge for me (but this depends on a bank, of course)...

Just don't believe every word that you hear here

[freeyourmind]

Have you ever shopped online?

-An average online card based shopping has a 4-8% comission on it by start, with bitcoin its about 2-3 cents (0.0001-0.0002 BTC)
-An average online card based shopping takes 2-4 days, bitcoin takes 10 minutes
-Wire transfer shopping is even worse, up to 5% comission +25€, so if you want to buy a 0.5€ pencil online, you pay like 30€ for it.
-Card based shopping is full with frauds, and if you have like 2000€ on your bank account, the thief can easily rob it, and then it will take you 6-12 months of police and other legal procedures to recover the money (if it can be recovered).
-With bitcoin you can just put 0.5BTC on your "shopping address" and keep your other 100 BTC on a safe cold storage wallet, so even if somebody steals your wallet he gets away with less (more diversification & risk control with bitcoin)
-Bitcoin is available for minors too, in some countries 16 year old is already eligible for work, yet he cannot have his own bank account without parent agreement which is nonsense. If a 16 year old guy works online to get some extra cash in bitcoin, and he spends it wherever he wants, thats his money and the government should not restrict that at all.
-Banks are not the safest place to store money (see Cyprus govenrment confiscation, Pension looting and other governmental thefts that occur nowadays), your bitcoins on the otherhands are invulnerable to government theft.
-Bitcoin doesnt have global restrictions, open to P2P trading, I can sell p2p anything, otherwise if i would have bought it from a central store you need to pay VAT tax on it, p2p trading is not taxed, yet, and it's more efficient.
-Bitcoin doesn't discriminate racially or politically or religiously between users (see EU and USA embargoes on "enemy" countries)
-Bitcoin is free market trading, its monetary freedom, and capped supply, while fiat money is an inflated toilet paper money.
 and many more...

An average guy can easily understand this, dont need a 160 IQ to understand that the governmental-monetary system is highly flawed.

Yes, we all know these.

You obviously don't shop online, since that guy is spreading blatant disinformation (mildly speaking). I buy things online a few times a month, so I know what I'm talking about. My last online purchase was just two hours ago, and I paid with my bank card (MasterCard Platinum, which is free if I keep a deposit of around 1,000$ in the bank). The payment was literally instant (as always), I didn't have to wait at all (and this is the same for Visas and MasterCards which I have). I paid 0% commission, and I will even get 1% cash-back, which I am paid every month for my purchases by the bank. Regarding stealing money from a bank card, this is hardly possible since I set daily limits, and every transaction online should be confirmed by a code sent to my phone by my bank. By the way, wire transfer is also free of charge for me (but this depends on a bank, of course)...

Just don't believe every word that you hear here

What you said makes sense.  I am assuming that the commission originally referenced would be for the seller of goods/services, and not the buyer.  Most credit cards around here also provide protection against theft.  So even if the card was stolen and used, the credit card company/bank would be liable and not the cardholder.  It's this way in Canada at least.

[deisik]

What you said makes sense.  I am assuming that the commission originally referenced would be for the seller of goods/services, and not the buyer.  Most credit cards around here also provide protection against theft.  So even if the card was stolen and used, the credit card company/bank would be liable and not the cardholder.  It's this way in Canada at least.

Furthermore, if the seller fails to deliver, with a bank card you can request a refund of a completed payment (money-back). Once I got into such a situation when the postal service lost my parcel (or it was stolen, idk). I tried to contact the seller for a refund, since the parcel de jure belongs to them until I take it at the post office. They refused, and I had to claim the money back through my bank. After the two week investigation by the bank I got my funds back, which were forcibly transferred from the seller's account in the acquiring bank to my account...

[Darkblock]

In short: Fiat-Money is a scam. Its probably the biggest scam ever. Or was that the gold-market? well not sure, but i am sure anything related to financial institutions and banks can be generally marked as "legal fraud".

[BTCevo]

In short: Fiat-Money is a scam. Its probably the biggest scam ever. Or was that the gold-market? well not sure, but i am sure anything related to financial institutions and banks can be generally marked as "legal fraud".

Nope fiat money doesnt scam. Money for now is our currency that is stable but in the new era bitcoin will change it. It doesnt mean that it is fraud because this fiat money is legal but still bitcoin doesnt have a chance to proof it for now. May be just a couple of years or decade bitcoin will show the truth to us

[Amph]

In short: Fiat-Money is a scam. Its probably the biggest scam ever. Or was that the gold-market? well not sure, but i am sure anything related to financial institutions and banks can be generally marked as "legal fraud".

Nope fiat money doesnt scam. Money for now is our currency that is stable but in the new era bitcoin will change it. It doesnt mean that it is fraud because this fiat money is legal but still bitcoin doesnt have a chance to proof it for now. May be just a couple of years or decade bitcoin will show the truth to us

the problem of bitcoin against fiat, is that bitcoin is too slow at catching up with fiat, if bitcoin really needs other decades to fight fiat, then we are screwed, because many technologies will come out by then and the chances of bitcoin to succeed will become much lower

and bank are indeed scamming with their fractional reserve/money printing system

[nerFohanzo]

That is But OBVIOUS.. humanity is enslaved by money, its a simple logic can we live without money??? And the answer is "NO" we cant. Basically it depends on what financial decisions you make?? If i make bad financial decisons then definitely it will be TROUBLE.

[Stargazer]

In short: Fiat-Money is a scam. Its probably the biggest scam ever. Or was that the gold-market? well not sure, but i am sure anything related to financial institutions and banks can be generally marked as "legal fraud".

The concept of money is not a scam, but some financial institutions are scamming with the money.
For example saying you have money and vouching for somebody's credit while not having enough funds (like the banks do) is a scam.

[Dotakels]

In short: Fiat-Money is a scam. Its probably the biggest scam ever. Or was that the gold-market? well not sure, but i am sure anything related to financial institutions and banks can be generally marked as "legal fraud".

The concept of money is not a scam, but some financial institutions are scamming with the money.
For example saying you have money and vouching for somebody's credit while not having enough funds (like the banks do) is a scam.

And their words are unbelievable, they only sale's talk to you so that you would belive them and after you believe and you let your money with their hands, for surely you wouldn't back your money

[GreenStox]

You obviously don't shop online, since that guy is spreading blatant disinformation (mildly speaking). I buy things online a few times a month, so I know what I'm talking about. My last online purchase was just two hours ago, and I paid with my bank card (MasterCard Platinum, which is free if I keep a deposit of around 1,000$ in the bank). The payment was literally instant (as always), I didn't have to wait at all (and this is the same for Visas and MasterCards which I have). I paid 0% commission, and I will even get 1% cash-back, which I am paid every month for my purchases by the bank. Regarding stealing money from a bank card, this is hardly possible since I set daily limits, and every transaction online should be confirmed by a code sent to my phone by my bank. By the way, wire transfer is also free of charge for me (but this depends on a bank, of course)...

Just don't believe every word that you hear here

I think i talked with you about this , are you that russian guy who has small comissions?

Well good luck for you bro that you live in the haven of BRICS, here in Europe we have thief banks controlled by the globalists that want to steal every penny from us.

I pay 6-7%  comission on everything I buy, that is 3-4% to Mastercard, 2% to the bank and another 1% sometimes the merchant to validate the transaction, so sometimes it can be even 10% (+ 25% VAT of course as the government likes to steal too).

Also the transaction can be instant, but it takes 3-4 days to clear from the account, that means  that i cant buy from the same place again until the order hasnt cleared. So if i want to buy lets say 1 flower online, and then i change my mind and want to buy another 1, i have to wait 3-4 days until i can buy again,

Yes thanks to those globalists that want to steal from all of us, so shut up dude, you are lucky that you dont live in this horrible place and that you have a country that cares about you, because where I live, they only steal from you   

[freeyourmind]

I pay 6-7%  comission on everything I buy, that is 3-4% to Mastercard, 2% to the bank and another 1% sometimes the merchant to validate the transaction, so sometimes it can be even 10% (+ 25% VAT of course as the government likes to steal too).

You, as the cardholder, pay Mastercard a commission when you make a purchase?

Is that normal in your country?

In North America, I haven't heard of a credit card that charges the cardholder unless they have a running balance - but that is an interest charge rather than a commission.  The vendor pays the commission here.