Money is an imaginary concept, but humanity is enslaved by it

[twiifm]

Paranoid much?  I don't need to check the meaning of slavery.  You need to

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[sidhujag]

We are enslaved by money and the fed..

Why do we work longer hours yet cant afford the same things? Our lives are inflated away.. Go back to 50s and ppl worked half a day and only man worked.. Now both need to and still. Not enough.. Granted more expenses.. But basics are still too high

[johnyj]

We are enslaved by money and the fed..

Why do we work longer hours yet cant afford the same things? Our lives are inflated away.. Go back to 50s and ppl worked half a day and only man worked.. Now both need to and still. Not enough.. Granted more expenses.. But basics are still too high

Good observation. In fact the efficiency has increased by thousands of times since the invention of electronics and computer, and working hours increased, but the living condition has not improved by thousands of times at all, where have all those added productivity gone

It is funny that the more money they need, the more right they give central banks to enslave them

From central bank's point of view: People desperately need me to print some paper to enslave them, without these paper they will die

How come people leave their fate in the hands of a printing press? Maybe because there are used to be something special that this printing press can provide: Trust

[johnyj]

Paranoid much?  I don't need to check the meaning of slavery.  You need to

Money supply increase a couple of percent per year until 2008, and then went out of control

It is not paranoid if people can accept a couple of percent tax each year by inflation, but now it is 500% tax in a couple of years. Stockholm syndrome maybe 

[D4C]

The monetary system is what created the world as we know it. It made a simple way to measure how much wealth you have in comparison to other. The idea of having more than the other, greed fueled by self interest.
I wouldn't have it any other way

[freeyourmind]

The monetary system is what created the world as we know it. It made a simple way to measure how much wealth you have in comparison to other. The idea of having more than the other, greed fueled by self interest.
I wouldn't have it any other way

But what if how much wealth you have isn't based on how much you have produced vs. how much you have consumed, but also how close you are to the creation of money.  For example, should a bank have first dibs at the money created in a monetary expansion by the Fed?  So they either make a speculative play on it or lend it out at a higher rate and profit from the spread?

You have a company that has done with money, what UPS or FedEx does with a shipment.  Take it from A and get it to B.  Let's say this is a mortgage, and now you'll be paying an annuity for 25 years back to the bank, and they will make a spread on the interest, and they will profit from that.

Now take a farmer, that produces food, an actual good that all humans require.  The profitability likely won't be as high as a bank, if profitable at all, and in fact they may require debt to survive.

Why doesn't the farmer have access to freshly printed Benjamin's from the Fed?

Then in the event that a bank speculates with the money, and loses the bet, like in 2008 when several banks were up for bankruptcy, why do they then get even more money given to them?  When does the bankrupt farm get bailed out?

That is more a problem with this particular monetary system, rather than money in general.

[johnyj]

The monetary system is what created the world as we know it. It made a simple way to measure how much wealth you have in comparison to other. The idea of having more than the other, greed fueled by self interest.
I wouldn't have it any other way

Value is all subjective, 1 million dollar worth a lot for average household but almost nothing for bankers. You don't care about spending 1 dollar more on your dinner tips, but for some other people that might be one day's pay. And the funny thing is: Those who get lowest salary work the hardest, while those earning millions of dollar per year lying on the beach, just because today's monetary system

[johnyj]

That is more a problem with this particular monetary system, rather than money in general.

Indeed, today's monetary system greatly benefit money creator and those who are close to money creator. Money creation has become a stronger power than presidents, but this power is purely built on people's imaginary concept of money, if they don't have this concept, then the power will disappear (An example is that you take some Chinese Yuan to England and try to spend it, it will not be accepted except for Chinese people, since in English people's mind this is not money)

However, it is almost impossible for people to get rid of the concept of money, I think it is a very old, government dependent concept

Also, it is very difficult to imagine what is an ideal form of money: You can even use some scientifically accurate unit to measure value, like 1kwh electricity. However since the supply and demand will change based on market condition, 1kwh electricity would worth more during winter and less during summer, thus make it not suitable to work as unit of value

Ideally, an unit of value should keep its value constant regardless of supply and demand change, so it is best it is just an imaginary concept, does not have any demand. But as soon as it has value, it will have demand, and demand can not be a constant, so it is just impossible. That's the reason central banks trying to manipulate the supply to keep up with the demand change, but that is a best effort thing, since the demand usually changed long ago before they react. The reason fiat money have stable value is just because people's consensus that it SHOULD have a stable value, and banks keep majority of people from getting more fiat money, to make sure the demand is close to infinite

[deisik]

The monetary system is what created the world as we know it. It made a simple way to measure how much wealth you have in comparison to other. The idea of having more than the other, greed fueled by self interest.
I wouldn't have it any other way

Value is all subjective, 1 million dollar worth a lot for average household but almost nothing for bankers. You don't care about spending 1 dollar more on your dinner tips, but for some other people that might be one day's pay. And the funny thing is: Those who get lowest salary work the hardest, while those earning millions of dollar per year lying on the beach, just because today's monetary system

This happens because those lying on the beach grab the best part of what those who work the hardest produce. It would be insincere to say that today's monetary system doesn't add up to this, but to say that it is just because of it would be a little too far-fetched, in my opinion...

[johnyj]

The monetary system is what created the world as we know it. It made a simple way to measure how much wealth you have in comparison to other. The idea of having more than the other, greed fueled by self interest.
I wouldn't have it any other way

Value is all subjective, 1 million dollar worth a lot for average household but almost nothing for bankers. You don't care about spending 1 dollar more on your dinner tips, but for some other people that might be one day's pay. And the funny thing is: Those who get lowest salary work the hardest, while those earning millions of dollar per year lying on the beach, just because today's monetary system

This happens because those lying on the beach grab the best part of what those who work the hardest produce. It would be insincere to say that today's monetary system doesn't add up to this, but to say that it is just because of it would be a little too far-fetched, in my opinion...

Since money can request others' product/services, it is a power. Who get the right to create this power will rule others. Without this power, those who lying on the beach can not request the product of those who working hard, and those who working hard could gain more wealth than former, that is a natural result of energy input

[loan4]

In most of the people's mind, money is a standard unit of value. Just like using meter to measure length and using kilogram to measure weight, people use money to measure value

Based on proven economy theory, value is decided by supply and demand: More supply and less demand will decrease the value, vice versa. However, this does not apply to money: Money can be used to purchase anything, the demand for money can be regarded as infinite. When demand is close to infinite, the supply will not change its value in any significant way. So for average household, the money's value feels the same for them regardless of money supply

So there is a strange phenomenon: Banks create money to dilute the wealth of the whole society, but when average people are becoming poorer, they need banks to create more money to rob them so that they could get a little bit more income. As a result, banks create 100$ of money but give them 1$ so that they can hang on for a while

If everyone's money suddenly increase by 1000 times, then money's value will crash right away. The art to maintain money's value is to keep majority of people's demand for money at close to infinite. So increased money supply should be used to buy assets and debts, to increase average people's living cost, make sure that they never have enough money. Only through this way, the money's value will be stable

The amazing thing is: Such a system seems to be formed naturally over time. It is the demand for money that enslaved majority of human. And the more they are enslaved, they demand more money, thus make the money more valuable

Of course the money I'm talking here is fiat money

Will you live without money? I think the answer will be "No". It is a big problem to resolve

and I think it will pass a lot of years maybe centuries before that there will be a real "change".

We need a real revolution, that has to start from the citizen (maybe better to call it not citizen but human).

[Nicolas Dorier]

Will you live without money? I think the answer will be "No". It is a big problem to resolve

Will you work without money ? If yes, PM me, I have an opportunity.

[freeyourmind]

That is more a problem with this particular monetary system, rather than money in general.

Indeed, today's monetary system greatly benefit money creator and those who are close to money creator. Money creation has become a stronger power than presidents, but this power is purely built on people's imaginary concept of money, if they don't have this concept, then the power will disappear (An example is that you take some Chinese Yuan to England and try to spend it, it will not be accepted except for Chinese people, since in English people's mind this is not money)

However, it is almost impossible for people to get rid of the concept of money, I think it is a very old, government dependent concept

Also, it is very difficult to imagine what is an ideal form of money: You can even use some scientifically accurate unit to measure value, like 1kwh electricity. However since the supply and demand will change based on market condition, 1kwh electricity would worth more during winter and less during summer, thus make it not suitable to work as unit of value

Ideally, an unit of value should keep its value constant regardless of supply and demand change, so it is best it is just an imaginary concept, does not have any demand. But as soon as it has value, it will have demand, and demand can not be a constant, so it is just impossible. That's the reason central banks trying to manipulate the supply to keep up with the demand change, but that is a best effort thing, since the demand usually changed long ago before they react. The reason fiat money have stable value is just because people's consensus that it SHOULD have a stable value, and banks keep majority of people from getting more fiat money, to make sure the demand is close to infinite

So the interest rate, which inversely affects the demand of money, is also set by the central bank.  Artificially low interest rates, cause artificially high demand for money, followed by monetary expansion.  I think that this Keynesian model of central decision making only works when the government makes decisions in the best interest of society as a whole rather than being in the best interest of a select few.  Seeing that the government is not currently capable of making decisions for the greater good, that power to control and manipulate the monetary system should be decreased, and likely with a decrease in the control of money, the corruption will decrease as well.

[johnyj]

Will you live without money? I think the answer will be "No". It is a big problem to resolve

and I think it will pass a lot of years maybe centuries before that there will be a real "change".

We need a real revolution, that has to start from the citizen (maybe better to call it not citizen but human).

Yes, the key question is: Could people live without fiat money? That really require some thinking

The concept of money exists since there was trading, the original money was something that can satisfy everyone's demand, so grain and cattle were used as money, and eventually settled on gold because of its universal acceptance. When gold is used as money, the other utilities of gold are blocked, leaving only transaction utility

The current form of fiat money is already close to the abstraction of money: only satisfying transaction demand. However, it has a fatal flaw: Central banks can create money at will. And since money is power, this gives them too much power

If central bank is GOD, and only works for the greater good of humanity, then no one will question the validity of his action, he have all the right to change money supply, to make sure the economy is on right track

Unfortunately they are just human, when human command god's power, that power will always corrupt, as seen in banking class today

Actually this power is not acquired by force, but automatically granted by people who believe the value of their fiat money, if people don't believe (just like when they see a strange foreign currency note, they have no idea of its value), then that power will disappear

As long as people need fiat money to live, they would always grant banks the power to enslave them. But is it really a must to use fiat money to live? Use gold for example won't grant banks that power, since banks can not create gold out of nothing. Gold standard is removed by the government, they also helped banks to achieve today's status

[RAXS]

Religion is also an imaginary concept, also many enslaved by it.

[johnyj]

Religion is also an imaginary concept, also many enslaved by it.

I have heard about that Jews were sent by the God to rule the rest of the human, thus they became the bankers. Maybe it is a religious belief that human should be ruled by bankers

But now it seems the religion of science is more widely accepted than bible, the tide is turning

[freeyourmind]

Religion is also an imaginary concept, also many enslaved by it.

Billions.

Even people that don't subscribe to religion are affected by it, as religious concepts have made their way into laws and policy and infringe on civil liberty in some cases.

Religion involves a lot of conditioning from an early age, and I think it is becoming harder and harder to condition kids that have access to the internet.

[GreenStox]

Is this another leftist thread to trash on money?

Because money is not the root of all evil, that is nonsense, nor it is something made up and inexistent.

It is a concept, which is a mathematical representation of goods and services that are valued by human interaction. Thats all money is.

Now fiat money is indeed imaginary, because the CB print as much as they want, but a legitimate currency with fixed supply is just as real as the air in your room, it is invisible and intangible, but it's real.

Just as the internet, thoughts, or sound, all of them are intangible, yet nobody questions their existence. So it's hard to get used to intangible things i know but i can assure you that real money is 100% real, and by real money i mean bitcoin and other cryptos with fixed supply.

The fiat money on the other hand are illusion.

[maku]

It is true that people need money. But at the same time they need food, water and social interactions. Do you think that they are also enslaved by it? Or we are just frustrated by bitcoin's rises and drops but not happy that Nixon took the US off the gold standard in the first place? Angry that central bankers continue to meddle with the macroeconomy?

[freeyourmind]

It is true that people need money. But at the same time they need food, water and social interactions. Do you think that they are also enslaved by it? Or we are just frustrated by bitcoin's rises and drops but not happy that Nixon took the US off the gold standard in the first place? Angry that central bankers continue to meddle with the macroeconomy?

Nixon did a few key things that were critical to having the situation we have today.

1. Getting rid of the gold standard, allowing limitless monetary expansion
2. Forcing the world to use the petro dollar, increasing the aggregate demand for the USD
3. Making drugs illegal around the world, creating the largest black market economy, where conflicts are resolved through violence and prisons are filled with victim-less criminals

I think the sad part is that no one has stepped up after Nixon to fix these major issues.  He had only done these things in order to get re-elected, and we are still on the same system.

Food and water are physiological needs, so I wouldn't say that is a concept, it is an actual life or death need.

It is possible to live without money, there are some aboriginal/tribal groups that live off the grid, and interact directly with nature to satisfy their needs of food, water, shelter, etc.  This type of lifestyle isn't possible living in the city, where there is a monetary cost of living.