Designated "business etiquette" boards

[eMansipater]

Business in bitcoins is finally starting to take off, but no matter which way you look at it these forums are anything but professional and do not reflect the quality standards of a leading open source community.  For those of us trying to build serious BitCoin projects, they're quite frankly an embarrassment.  I would never send a potential business contact here, and as a mod I can also testify to the increasing complaints regarding language, thread hijacking, etc. for which there are no good guidelines against which to moderate.

I consider this all to be just normal growing pains, and I'm not interested in executively censoring opinions or personalities I disagree with.  But we need to self-organise things a little so that people can still talk about whatever they want without making the forums useless for people unwilling to wade through a lot of noise to find the signal, like just about anybody who considers their time valuable (no offense to anyone who spends as much time here as I do).

I propose that we designate several of the main boards as "business etiquette" zones, and then if necessary create additional boards for bitcoin-related (and thus not off-topic) discussions which are personal/philosophical/political or anything else that's out of place in a professional setting.

Too many people out there think BitCoin is a joke, and it's time to step up the game by acting like the $50 million technology BitCoin is.

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[Anonymous]

The marketplace isn't professional?

[eMansipater]

It's a bit unfair to pick on anyone since there's no current standard of etiquette that people are requested to adhere to, but I think it would be fair to say that posts like these are NSFW (posters are clearly joking, and I just grabbed it from a search, but this is plenty to get an employee in trouble if they accidentally click on it at work).

I've also heard some unconfirmed reports that the whole forums are being auto-blocked by some filtering software because of NSFW content (anyone have better details on that btw?).

[Anonymous]

Here's my view: When the demand comes for a professional, business-only forum it will be made. I don't see why it's totally necessary for this forum to specialize in such a thing.

[davout]

It's a bit unfair to pick on anyone since there's no current standard of etiquette that people are requested to adhere to, but I think it would be fair to say that posts like these are NSFW (posters are clearly joking, and I just grabbed it from a search, but this is plenty to get an employee in trouble if they accidentally click on it at work).

I've also heard some unconfirmed reports that the whole forums are being auto-blocked by some filtering software because of NSFW content (anyone have better details on that btw?).  If we could keep "business etiquette" boards public and simply make other boards require log-in it would help prevent that sort of thing.

I vote a plain fat no.

[eMansipater]

Consider my post demand in and of itself.  The market isn't somebody else, it's us, paying attention to what needs to be done.  The lack of business-safe zones on the official project forums isn't a gap that can be appropriately filled elsewhere, and it's most assuredly having an impact.

[theymos]

Create a competing forum. bitcoin.org should not be considered any more official than weusecoins.com or any other site.

[Anonymous]

Well, I think a simple business board will cut it. If some goof-ball decides to starts going off-topic on there, you move it to off-topic. It doesn't sound difficult at all.

[davout]

Create a competing forum. bitcoin.org should not be considered any more official than weusecoins.com or any other site.

+1

[Anonymous]

Create a competing forum. bitcoin.org should not be considered any more official than weusecoins.com or any other site.

This. The main point of Bitcoin is its decentralization. The technology is public. It's not Gave Andresen's or anybody elses. We don't totally reflect its use and direction. Every individual does whether he be on the forum or outside of it.

[eMansipater]

Why is it so unacceptable just to designate a specific portion of the board "business etiquette"?  Is that really some sort of assault on personal freedom?

Create a competing forum. bitcoin.org should not be considered any more official than weusecoins.com or any other site.

In theory, I agree with you.  In practice, without big bold letters proclaiming that on the front page, no reasonable person will come to that conclusion.  And in any case, de facto official is sufficient for the point I'm trying to make.

This. The main point of Bitcoin is its decentralization. The technology is public. It's not Gave Andresen's or anybody elses. We don't totally reflect its use and direction. Every individual does whether he be on the forum or outside of it.

Which is why I, as an individual, am making a suggestion to a community of individuals who have a larger impact on the image of BitCoin than any other identifiable group that we voluntarily self-organise a little to our mutual advantage.

[Anonymous]

So, you want make a business etiquette sub-forum? I honestly don't see a problem with it.

[zef]

I think a strictly business board might be a good idea, but I'm not convinced that Project Development and Marketplace boards are inadequate. From what I've seen in my brief experience is that they are quite active and productive. But I am not exactly sure what you are trying to accomplish.

I would suggest adding a board for specifically for dissent or disagreement on bitcoins, where there are stricter rules to keep conversation productive and avoid possible flame wars.  It seems a lot of people have strong emotional ties defending or attacking bitcoins, and understandably so.  

[Anonymous]

I think a strictly business board might be a good idea, but I'm not convinced that Project Development and Marketplace boards are inadequate. From what I've seen in my brief experience is that they are quite active and productive. But I am not exactly sure what you are trying to accomplish.

Simply renaming the "Project Development Board" to "Bitcoin Ventures and Businesses" can do the trick.

I would suggest adding a board for specifically for dissent or disagreement on bitcoins, where there are stricter rules to keep conversation productive and avoid possible flame wars.  It seems a lot of people have strong emotional ties defending or attacking bitcoins, and understandably so.  

No. Too much overheard. You're going to kill us with butthurt, power-high moderation.

[Mike Hearn]

For now it'd be better to make a politics subforum, IMHO, like how there's one for economics.

The problem is that "Bitcoin Discussion" is too vague so it's constantly being flooded with stuff that's barely on-topic, like the current sovereign citizens thread. There needs to be an area for stuff that doesn't obviously fit, or for people to ask newbie questions. Stuff that's political in nature could just be moved. Spam (like the citizens thread) should just be deleted.

eMansipater, you are a mod so if you think something is off-topic why not just move it or lock it?

As to the idea that forum.bitcoin.org is not an official forum, sorry but that's naive. It's obviously the official forum and its contents do reflect on the people using and building Bitcoin. At the very least it could do with some better organization.

[Anonymous]

Bitcoin doesn't have an official anything. The development team could go rogue or fall apart very easily. The software would still continue though.

[elewton]

It doesn't have to be a competing forum.  A co-operating forum would be valuable.

As Ubuntu is to Debian, a Bitcoin Business forum could be to Bitcoin.org.  I love this site for what it is, but the characters around here, including myself, may be off-putting to cautious business people unaccustomed to open forums.

They'd probably prefer a heavily-moderated forum in which one is polite, helpful, and accurate or does not post/gets edited.

[eMansipater]

"Business etiquette" as a topic doesn't really make sense taxonomically.  But on most forums you have a chance to see what you're getting into before clicking.  Heck, even 4chan keeps /b/ separate from everything else.  Is there a good reason that we can't simply designate some of the main boards as business etiquette and then create enough "enter at your own risk" boards that people can talk about whatever they want?  Lots of the main boards are getting overloaded by pure quantity of posting anyways, so this would be a helpful way of enabling people to both find things and post more effectively.

I think a strictly business board might be a good idea, but I'm not convinced that Project Development and Marketplace boards are inadequate. From what I've seen in my brief experience is that they are quite active and productive. But I am not exactly sure what you are trying to accomplish.

Just trying to improve the signal to noise ratio, and give people a chance to discover bitcoin without having to drink from the firehose of the untempered internets.

I would suggest adding a board for specifically for dissent or disagreement on bitcoins, where there are stricter rules to keep conversation productive and avoid possible flame wars.  It seems a lot of people have strong emotional ties defending or attacking bitcoins, and understandably so.  

This might be a good idea if implemented very carefully.

For now it'd be better to make a politics subforum, IMHO, like how there's one for economics.

The problem is that "Bitcoin Discussion" is too vague so it's constantly being flooded with stuff that's barely on-topic, like the current sovereign citizens thread. There needs to be an area for stuff that doesn't obviously fit, or for people to ask newbie questions. Stuff that's political in nature could just be moved. Spam (like the citizens thread) should just be deleted.

Politics/philosophy is definitely a big enough thing to warrant its own no-holds-barred zone.

eMansipater, you are a mod so if you think something is off-topic why not just move it or lock it?

If something is obviously so according to community consensus, I do.  But the job of a moderator is to hold the community to its own standards rather than just impose mine instead, which is why something like this has to be a discussion rather than just a skew in my own practice of moderation.  If you were referring to the citizens thread I am just giving people a chance to see it before I move it with fair warning, since that's why PLATO bumped it.

...If we could keep "business etiquette" boards public and simply make other boards require log-in it would help prevent that sort of thing.

I vote a plain fat no.

By the way, that was just me thinking out loud about the technical side of things.  I've removed it since that's not the gist of what I'm getting at here.

[kiba]

If we're going to use bitcoin.org marketplace as a hub of commerce, let act like it is a hub of commerce.

Simple rules:

1. Don't hijack other people's threads for your opinions, especially when they're trying to conduct business transaction or access trustworthiness.

2. Offtopic chatters will simply be moved to split off to some place else.

I think they're already in place anyhow, but I don't moderate the marketplace forum for thread hijacking much.

[eMansipater]

If we're going to use bitcoin.org marketplace as a hub of commerce, let act like it is a hub of commerce.

Simple rules:

1. Don't hijack other people's threads for your opinions, especially when they're trying to conduct business transaction or access trustworthiness.

2. Offtopic chatters will simply be moved to split off to some place else.

I think they're already in place anyhow, but I don't moderate the marketplace forum for thread hijacking much.

Yep, I'm with you on that.  And just a very brief "business etiquette expected" label on the board subtitle would be fair enough notice to all.

[theymos]

As to the idea that forum.bitcoin.org is not an official forum, sorry but that's naive.

Why? What makes anything on bitcoin.org official? No code is hosted here, and the bitcoin.org resources are not controlled by anyone currently involved in development. There are no links to bitcoin.org in the Bitcoin software.

I think they're already in place anyhow, but I don't moderate the marketplace forum for thread hijacking much.

Off-topic posts should already be deleted or split in any section.

It's hard to notice off-topic posts when you're reading dozens of threads at a time, though. More reports are needed.

[gene]

This forum is currently an embarrassment. (See my sig for a good example)

As for professionalism and image, let me note once again that "theymos" advertises the following in his sig:

Did you miss the Bitcoin gold rush? Is Bitcoin not the money machine you'd hoped? You can still Get Rich Quick with fxnet, the Bitcoin Ponzi scheme!

Let's consider the ramifications of having a bitcoin.org forum Administrator and "Hero Member" peddling a ponzi scheme.

Now, I'm not an expert on public relations or anything, but I may understand if a visitor becomes a bit put off by that fact. Think how many time bitcoin has been labeled as a ponzi/pyramid scheme. Is theymos' sig really the kind of thing that we need? Is this the type of person/"business" we wish to have as an administrator and representative?

So yes, anything that makes this place more presentable is worth the effort. Perhaps Gavin should also say his piece here. Thank you, eMansipater, for sticking out your neck.

[kiba]

As to the idea that forum.bitcoin.org is not an official forum, sorry but that's naive.

Why? What makes anything on bitcoin.org official? No code is hosted here, and the bitcoin.org resources are not controlled by anyone currently involved in development. There are no links to bitcoin.org in the Bitcoin software.

Off-topic posts should already be deleted or split in any section.

It's hard to notice off-topic posts when you're reading dozens of threads at a time, though. More reports are needed.

It is the de-facto site of the bitcoin community and the bitcoin project. It is the closest thing we have to "official".

[Vladimir]

I support eMansipater. Let's face it this forum is as official for bitcoin as it gets and perception matters. A lot of juvenile flames does not help it. If it comes to that I would prefer politics and flames moving to another forum.

As a reasonable compromise though we really could coexist. eMancipater, you are the damn moderator, go and expand list of subforums and set up some simple, subforum specific  rules. Problem solved.

[eMansipater]

I support eMansipater. Let's face it this forum is as official for bitcoin as it gets and perception matters. A lot of juvenile flames does not help it. If it comes to that I would prefer politics and flames moving to another forum.

+1

As a reasonable compromise though we really could coexist. eMancipater, you are the damn moderator, go and expand list of subforums and set up some simple, subforum specific rules. Problem solved.

I realise not everyone knows this, but moderators don't have the ability to create new boards/subforums.  That's reserved for admins.

[davout]

I support eMansipater. Let's face it this forum is as official for bitcoin as it gets and perception matters. A lot of juvenile flames does not help it. If it comes to that I would prefer politics and flames moving to another forum.

+1

[/quote]
I don't think this place should be seen as a place to advertise bitcoin, if bitcoin succeeds it won't be because of good marketing, it will be because it solves a problem, because it puts the control of money where it belongs, in the hands which use it.

If people desire a new subforum with different rules, why not ? But I don't think that project development should be removed and that too much attention should be given to marketing and PR.

Let's consider the ramifications of having a bitcoin.org forum Administrator and "Hero Member" peddling a ponzi scheme.

I don't think this place is about PR, and I'm also amused at the obvious "this is not a ponzi scheme anymore since i just told you it is one" paradox

[kiba]

I am tired of the effort in censoring everything for the sake of Public Relation.

First they come for the drugs. Next, they'll come for the gambling, which is by the way...is illegal in the US. Then they will get rid of sex.

Moderate and keep the business forums efficient is what we should be doing as mods anyway.

[Anonymous]

Slippery Slope Fallacy, Kiba.

Tsk tsk.

[xf2_org]

bitcoin.org should not be considered any more official than weusecoins.com or any other site.

Pure fantasy.  It is the de facto official website and forum.

[marcus_of_augustus]

The anarchists are organising.


I don't think you realise how discredited anything with a slick PR "official" look to it has become after the rip-offs perpetrated from on high for so long. Sure make a "Business" section for the "high-rollers" or whoever you think it is that is offended by the bitcoin rabble but don't expect the vast majority of the people that are using bitcoin now to give a damn what you are saying in there ....

[gene]

Public relations (what used to be called propaganda) is a weapon. Either we understand how it is used and protect ourselves with it, or we make ourselves vulnerable to those who are skilled in its use.

We should not make the job of those who would see bitcoin fail any easier than it already is. Ponzi schemes, deranged ancap/sociopathic rants and weak self-evaluation work to undermine this project.

[eMansipater]

I don't think you realise how discredited anything with a slick PR "official" look to it has become after the rip-offs perpetrated from on high for so long. Sure make a "Business" section for the "high-rollers" or whoever you think it is that is offended by the bitcoin rabble but don't expect the vast majority of the people that are using bitcoin now to give a damn what you are saying in there ....

Yeah, like how everyone has stopped using Tor because their homepage looks like this:



It's too bad such a useful tool has become so discredited.

[kiba]

Public relations (what used to be called propaganda) is a weapon. Either we understand how it is used and protect ourselves with it, or we make ourselves vulnerable to those who are skilled in its use.

We should not make the job of those who would see bitcoin fail any easier than it already is. Ponzi schemes, deranged ancap/sociopathic rants and weak self-evaluation work to undermine this project.

There is an inherent tension between promoting free speech, which we bitcoiners value a lot, and PR, which is making us looks politically correct or inoffensive.

[mewantsbitcoins]

I support eMansipater's proposal. I think he proved through actions he means well to Bitcoin. We should recognize that there are people who don't like hearing controversial things. If creating a new, heavily moderated, board means they will adopt Bitcoin, why the hell not.
It may even open few people's eyes once their curiosity gets the better of them and they browse the rest of this forum

[Mike Hearn]

There's now a "Politics and society" subforum where these sorts of things can be discussed. People who aren't interested don't have to see it, people who are can debate at length without worrying about flooding out newbie discussion.

[Anonymous]

Mark the business section as safe for work/under 18 and the rest of the board nsfw, problem solved and people cant complain if they voluntarily click through. Then you can be as control freakish as you want in your own section and the rest of us can ignore your nanny state.



P.S.
People who think they are doing something for your own good will torment you with no ending.