Why Bitcoin so popular in Discussions about government taking over the economy?

[bb113]

I know I'm being ignored... but honestly any government would be better off creating something other than bitcoin than trying to centralize it. The plan of controlling bitcoin is too complicated, therefore it will fail. I can see attempts at destroying or driving it underground, but not using it. Controlling it would be far more expensive than just creating an alternative and convincing people to use it instead. I don't think the "powers that be" are that stupid.

[myrkul]

Coins can be newly whitelisted by the government at any time.  There is no danger of this becoming an issue.  Once again I have to tell you it is becoming very tiresome trying to instruct you in these very basic concepts.  I think it is very likely I am being trolled right now, and it's a shame folks here would ruin what could be such an interesting conversation by doing that.

OK, so, I make a transaction, and some part of my wallet gets sent to an address I can't see in the client, and is transparently (from my point of view) linked to my main balance. I then have to contact the government, fill out a form, and request that portion of my funds be returned to me?

Why? so the government can decide what transactions are "legitimate" and which are not? What's the point, when I can simply run my entire life on the black market, as many people did in Soviet Russia?

You are clearly trolling here.  Unless you are sending funds to a non-whitelisted account you have nothing to worry about, I have already explained that.  Unless you want to live without a home and transportation and any government services...basically entirely off the grid, you aren't going black market only. 

If I can find someone who will rent me some space for "black" coins, likewise for transportation, I'd probably be living better than most of the people on the whitelist.

Basically, what you propose is much hassle, for little or no gain. Whole new levels of government would be needed to police your economy, and if you succeeded in your plan, people would abandon Bitcoin in a heartbeat, for some other cryptocurrency. Or cash. Or barter. Or they would hide black market transactions in with the whitelisted ones. Pay extra for a package of crackers, get a package of crackers, and a sack of weed. All you see is a transaction from one whitelisted address to another.

Controlling other people against their will is futile. It may work for a little while, but you will lose your grip, or it will be ripped from you.

[Rarity]

Nobody is going to sign up to take your black market coins.  Black Markets exist because doing so is profitable.  It lets big time criminals buy houses and cars and invest in legitimate businesses which can also be profitable.  When you take away that profit motive by making the big purchases impossible to hide and laundering your money in legitimate businesses impossible the profit motive for a criminal organization is gone.  This effect trickles all the way down the totem pole.  No big drug producers and distributors means no drug corners and homeless junkies.  That means a lot less mugging and assault and property crime and prostitution and rape.  Wiping out all this crime is a huge benefit for the economy as these people go on to live productive lives within the law.

Any major economic change will take some serious effort to set up, but the rewards of moving to this system are so vast people will agree they are worth the effort. 

Pay extra for a package of crackers, get a package of crackers, and a sack of weed.

You are again failing to understand any of the concepts here at even the most basic of levels.  Listen closely, I need you to understand that CRACKERS DON'T MATTER. First off, illegal narcotics like Marijuana cost significantly more than crackers.  That is not a good way to hide the transaction.  Second, all the transactions to the drug dealer trying to hide transaction in a whitelisted address are tracked.  As soon as such a dealer is caught, and this happens all the time for entirely random reasons like a dog smelling something during a traffic stop, you now have a list of all his customers too.  Drug dealing as a profession is not going to last long in that situation.  It would be as if every drug war arrestee informed on everyone they ever bought and sold to every time.  The distribution networks fall apart in a flash. 

I know Marijuana is a deadly, addictive drug but even Marijuana junkies will be smart enough to give up and get treatment instead under these conditions.

[myrkul]

I know Marijuana is a deadly, addictive drug but even Marijuana junkies will be smart enough to give up and get treatment instead under these conditions.

Who's trolling who here?

And tell me, how are you going to differentiate legitimate transactions from padded ones? Remember, blockchain only has amounts and addresses.

again:

Controlling other people against their will is futile. It may work for a little while, but you will lose your grip, or it will be ripped from you.

[Rarity]

Who's trolling who here?

If you are trying to troll me into a debate on the dangers of drugs here please don't, I already suspect you are intoxicated and I do not feel this would be a valuable use of our time.  

And tell me, how are you going to differentiate legitimate transactions from padded ones? Remember, blockchain only has amounts and addresses.

As has been previously pointed out, crackers don't matter.  Please re-read my previous post and try and slow down and understand it this time.  Or maybe consider taking nap, sobering up, and checking out the thread again tomorrow.  

[myrkul]

Who's trolling who here?

If you are trying to troll me into a debate on the dangers of drugs here please don't, I already suspect your are intoxicated and I do not feel this would be a valuable use of our time. 

Says the guy with a rainbow pony as their avatar and who can't correctly spell "you".

Right. I'm the intoxicated one.

And tell me, how are you going to differentiate legitimate transactions from padded ones? Remember, blockchain only has amounts and addresses.

As has been previously pointed out, crackers don't matter.  Please re-read my previous post and try and slow down and understand it this time.

So, every transaction that merchant ever made is automatically a drug sale? Again, how are you going to tell the legit transactions from the padded ones?

[Rarity]

Who's trolling who here?

If you are trying to troll me into a debate on the dangers of drugs here please don't, I already suspect your are intoxicated and I do not feel this would be a valuable use of our time.  

Says the guy with a rainbow pony as their avatar and who can't correctly spell "you".

Right. I'm the intoxicated one.

It does seem to me to be a sign of intoxication to think that a typo is a sign of intoxication.  It is yet another sign of the clouded thinking that has typified your contributions to this conversation.  Lashing out at my typing skills is not going to distract from the subject at hand.  

The family television program "My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic" promotes a healthy, well balanced lifestyle in which recreational drugs play no role.  I think you will find that with good support from your friends this lifestyle is also possible for you.  Please look into the organization I posted about earlier.  

So, every transaction that merchant ever made is automatically a drug sale?

All of the $60 cracker sales, sure.

[myrkul]

So, every transaction that merchant ever made is automatically a drug sale?

All of the $60 cracker sales, sure.

Where in the blockchain is the info about what the transaction is for? All you see is addresses and amounts. And if you think large transactions can be filtered, I'd point out that small amounts of drugs can be quite cheap.

I'd direct you to Silk Road to verify for yourself how inexpensive small amounts are, but I suspect you already know better than I the current prices on SR.

[Rarity]

So, every transaction that merchant ever made is automatically a drug sale?

All of the $60 cracker sales, sure.

Where in the blockchain is the info about what the transaction is for? All you see is addresses and amounts. And if you think large transactions can be filtered, I'd point out that small amounts of drugs can be quite cheap.

The information doesn't need to be in the blockchain.  You would have more than enough evidence for probable cause to simply request a urine test from the customers of a store that was, openly and frequently (because you insist on small amounts it happens all the time) selling drugs.  

I know your mind is currently too addled to understand this, but people have already tried schemes like this before.  It tends to end in a fast bust because it's idiotic.  When you sell out in the open in small quantities with legitimate customers also present all you are doing is making it easier to get caught, one of those customers could be a cop for all you know.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAUEqslnTSY

[myrkul]

So, every transaction that merchant ever made is automatically a drug sale?

All of the $60 cracker sales, sure.

Where in the blockchain is the info about what the transaction is for? All you see is addresses and amounts. And if you think large transactions can be filtered, I'd point out that small amounts of drugs can be quite cheap.

The information doesn't need to be in the blockchain.  You would have more than enough evidence for probable cause to simply request a urine test from the customers of a store that was, openly and frequently (because you insist on small amounts it happens all the time) selling drugs.  

I did not "insist" on small amounts, I pointed out that if you based your search on large payments, you'd miss the small purchases. You would indeed need to perform UA's on all the customers of dealer to catch all of his customers, and I'd point out that there are drugs which do not show up in UAs, or which are processed through the body and out again long before any such test can be performed.

And yes, selling drugs out of a drive-through window is probably a bad idea. But that doesn't mean that trusted customers to a bodega-type store can't be sold the tea they keep behind the counter.

Doing a UA on the entire customer base of such a store would:

1) be costly
2) be openly oppressive
3) miss some, or even most of the customers because they took drugs that the test can't find.

Prohibition doesn't work, even if you have the perfect snitch of the blockchain.

once again:

Controlling other people against their will is futile. It may work for a little while, but you will lose your grip, or it will be ripped from you.

[Rarity]

I did not "insist" on small amounts, I pointed out that if you based your search on large payments, you'd miss the small purchases.

What I am telling you is it doesn't matter.  Big or small, when the government sees every transaction they will be able to untangle your operation.

You would indeed need to perform UA's on all the customers of dealer to catch all of his customers, and I'd point out that there are drugs which do not show up in UAs, or which are processed through the body and out again long before any such test can be performed.

By far the most commonly used dangerous illegal drug is marijuana, it is also the easiest to test for and the most profitable to criminal cartels.  Drugs such as cocaine and heroin and meth are addictive enough that the customers tend to be daily users and will only be evading the test if you warn them of it ahead of time (which you aren't doing), and even then they might not be able to manage.  

And yes, selling drugs out of a drive-through window is probably a bad idea. But that doesn't mean that trusted customers to a bodega-type store can't be sold the tea they keep behind the counter.

Again, you are not the first drug abuser who has tried to figure this kind of thing out.  Code words, trusted people, whatever.  It's not sustainable, you get busted.  

Oops, you messed up just one time and gave someone the wrong bag.  Busted.

http://articles.cnn.com/2002-10-10/justice/ctv.scm_1_bank-robber-marijuana-hotel-pool?_s=PM:LAW

A fast-food restaurant employee was arrested September 21 after a customer drove up to a Kentucky Fried Chicken drive-in window and received the wrong side order with his chicken dinner: two bags of marijuana.

Doing a UA on the entire customer base of such a store would:

If there is any significant non-drug using customer base, the owner is a weapons grade idiot for not just catering to them instead of risking his business to sell illegal drugs when all a bust takes is one simple mistake, one careless employee, one person randomly getting pulled over when a cop saw them leave your store and getting caught with the drugs, and a billion other things that can go wrong even before you bring to the table the fact that all your transactions are being watched.

Prohibition doesn't work

It works when done right, even in countries without Regulated Bitcoin Economies.   Look at Singapore where drug use is very low and harsh laws are enforced.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jun/05/singapore-policy-drugs-bay

[myrkul]

You know what? You wanna advocate evil, go for it. I'm done playing along. Your plan is stupid, not least because if you managed it, everyone would drop Bitcoin like a hot rock. To say nothing of the waste and expense of the actual implementation. 

[Rarity]

Your plan is stupid

Just because you are having difficulty keeping up and understanding the simple and effective elegance of the proposal does not make it necessary to lash out in this manner.  If you don't have a rebuttal, that is fine, just calling it stupid does not make it so.  

You know what? You wanna advocate evil, go for it. I'm done playing along.

This plan would be a huge boost for the economy of any country that implemented it and would help to wipe out drug abuse and organized crime which have been responsible for countless deaths and represent an ongoing tragic violation of human rights and human dignity.  Implementing this plan wouldn't be evil, it would be one of the greatest steps forward in the history of human civilization.

[myrkul]

You know what? You wanna advocate evil, go for it. I'm done playing along.

This plan would be a huge boost for the economy of any country that implemented it and would help to wipe out drug abuse and organized crime which have been responsible for countless deaths and represent an ongoing tragic violation of human rights and human dignity.  Implementing this plan wouldn't be evil, it would be one of the greatest steps forward in the history of human civilization.

Forcibly drug testing hundreds if not thousands of people because one of their associates is caught with drugs is a "great step forward"? Analyzing every financial transaction in the country isn't evil? The fact that you point to Singapore as your success story is all I need to know about you.

If you want to get organized crime out of the black market, the way to do it is not to crush your populace under an iron boot, but to remove the source of income from the black market. Move it into the white.

If you would like an example, I suggest you start reading here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohibition#Prohibition_in_the_United_States

When you're done with that, TIME has an article for you: http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html

[molecular]

Rarity, you are indeed a rarity on these forums.

Why on earth would you ever want government controlling economic transactions like that other than for enslaving and monitoring the populous?

How does your idea prevent black markets? They'll just use BlackCoin instead of your WhiteWashedBitcoin.

[420]

Prove that there is no legitimate payment for it. The blockchain contains no information about the nature of the transaction.

Incredibly fucking easy.  The dealership sold 5 cars that day, we know this because when you sell a car you have to transfer the title.  Are there 5 payments for them? 

Have you ever had contact with a government? That is definitely too hard for them.

they definately only count to 3 at max. Look at the TSA workers that steal from luggage or take naked scan images of celebrities home as souvenirs

[420]

I know I'm being ignored... but honestly any government would be better off creating something other than bitcoin than trying to centralize it. The plan of controlling bitcoin is too complicated, therefore it will fail. I can see attempts at destroying or driving it underground, but not using it. Controlling it would be far more expensive than just creating an alternative and convincing people to use it instead. I don't think the "powers that be" are that stupid.

another point: Takeover bitcoin...what about litecoin?

they'd first need control over the internet

SOPA PIPA
CISPA
ACTA
CSA
et cetera

[myrkul]

I don't go to My Little Pony forums and tell them that the show is great, except it should be about cannibalistic sharks that explore space instead of friendly ponies that spread happiness.

This.

...though that would be a great show. Especially if the sharks visited Equestria first.

[bb113]

In my experience, russians love trying out new things and are very cool people. N=3

[molecular]

I don't go to My Little Pony forums and tell them that the show is great, except it should be about cannibalistic sharks that explore space instead of friendly ponies that spread happiness.

Give me a link to the thread once you change your mind... sounds like some fun hardcore trolling.