Do you keep your Bitcoins on an exchange?

[BkkCoins]

I keep mine in my wallet. I sent some to MtGox a month ago to sell but then found out I can't withdraw to Dwolla any more and so bought coins again and moved them back to my wallet. I mean it was only about $50 anyway. But I did lose <$1 in the process. I have sold them since via other methods. I understand MtGox having to do what they do but it's a nuisance when even pretty trivial amounts get caught up with this.

I don't plan to support or give business to Dwolla in future. They suck just like PP and banks. And if MtGox can sort out a way to handle small amounts without verifying I'd continue to deal with them. I could provide valid ID but not proof of residence. I mean I actually do live somewhere but it's not in my name and I can't get a document that says I live here. I've had the same US bank account for more than 10 years. You think that would mean something but it's a shady, slimey world.

[1714284749]

1714284749

[ErebusBat]

I could provide valid ID but not proof of residence. I mean I actually do live somewhere but it's not in my name and I can't get a document that says I live here. I've had the same US bank account for more than 10 years.

Supposedly Bitfloor only requires your ID, I have started this process so it is ready when I want/need it.  I will let you know how it goes.

From their site:

If you would like to setup direct deposit, please contact support@bitfloor.com and provide a copy of your government or state ID, your bank name, routing number, and account number.

[Xian01]

With all the hacks that have happened so far in the Bitcoin community, I would be leery of storing a significant quantity of BTC at any exchange.

Using a wallet on my Mac behind seven proxies and fourteen firewalls doing Time Machine backups every hour to my Synology NAS seems to be working pretty well for me so far.

[niko]

Using a wallet on my Mac behind seven proxies and fourteen firewalls doing Time Machine backups every hour to my Synology NAS seems to be working pretty well for me so far.

That much for technology making your life easier...

[thoughtcourier]

Do you?

If so, let me be the first to tell you that you're in for some paperwork and frozen funds.

Here we go again... This is your 2nd thread on that matter, and good lord if we have AML/KYC procedures if for a REASON and not just simply because we though it was fun to annoy people! And YEP you can withdraw funds without being AML/KYC or a Verified/Trusted Mt.Gox member, a HUGE chunk of our customers are not verified!

Of course if you start using Dwolla, a VPN, Tor, sending funds to another account in another name/country/[Insert your choice] that is not yours... or LOT of reasons can trigger you to be verified.

Tim and my RL friend may not be talking about the same thing, but my friend just recently had his funds locked down and I am also worried about exchanges. From my understanding, it was actually because he filled out the AML paperwork incorrectly due to being a guy in his 20s who moves around a bit. To clarify, now he can't even get the bitcoins out to me (I offered to give him cash for his coins), so he is indeed frozen. I believe he's hassling mtgox about it, and is willing to prove he is the owner, but they are not in a hurry to unlock his account.

So... whereas I used to trust exchanges a lot, I have to say that I am getting a little skeptical. It's good to have tight security, but you have to back that up with reasonable customer service so that people can get their money out when they trigger false positives on your security screening.

I am not sure that people understand the complexity of things here. We are not talking about your "average" local bank that can find many easy way to "trust" you and that can talk to you face to face and solve any issue you may have. We in the other hands work on a global scale with document that are sometimes not in our own languages and with different regulations and needs. In Japan we do not have bank statement for example so I cannot send any of such document to a company that ask for it. There are also people who do not have address at their name... Bottom line, yes this is can be unpleasant for some but the majority of people seems to go with it without much problems by simply providing the document needed and if you cannot there are still some other possibilities we can try.

I understand that in finance and healthcare you err strongly on the side of safety, but sometimes you cross into the illogical. This is where good customer service or management is needed.

My friend sent bitcoins to MTGOX. He also submits his personal information. It throws flags. Okay, fine, don't let him withdraw money from this account. But why would you prevent him from withdrawing his bitcoins (as bitcoins)? Even if he is not who he says he is IRL, he is still clearly the account owner. If he had not submitted the information in the first place, he would have been fine to withdraw his coins as an unverified user. I don't believe he's even done anything other than deposit bitcoins.

Obviously, I don't think anything nefarious at all is going on here, but you can understand how that could easily be insinuated, especially by someone cynical and frustrated. And you probably know that everyone strives for 100% customer satisfaction because even a tiny minority, if vocal, can make you lose a lot of reputation. It's probably true that your process works for most people, but you should strive to make sure that the "special circumstances" get handled with TLC and within a reasonable time frame.

And I have no beef with mtgox atm. I'm just offering constructive criticism. Sorry if this makes you look bad or if you've heard this too many times before.

[Mt.Gox_Alex]

Do you?

If so, let me be the first to tell you that you're in for some paperwork and frozen funds.

Here we go again... This is your 2nd thread on that matter, and good lord if we have AML/KYC procedures if for a REASON and not just simply because we though it was fun to annoy people! And YEP you can withdraw funds without being AML/KYC or a Verified/Trusted Mt.Gox member, a HUGE chunk of our customers are not verified!

Of course if you start using Dwolla, a VPN, Tor, sending funds to another account in another name/country/[Insert your choice] that is not yours... or LOT of reasons can trigger you to be verified.

Tim and my RL friend may not be talking about the same thing, but my friend just recently had his funds locked down and I am also worried about exchanges. From my understanding, it was actually because he filled out the AML paperwork incorrectly due to being a guy in his 20s who moves around a bit. To clarify, now he can't even get the bitcoins out to me (I offered to give him cash for his coins), so he is indeed frozen. I believe he's hassling mtgox about it, and is willing to prove he is the owner, but they are not in a hurry to unlock his account.

So... whereas I used to trust exchanges a lot, I have to say that I am getting a little skeptical. It's good to have tight security, but you have to back that up with reasonable customer service so that people can get their money out when they trigger false positives on your security screening.

I am not sure that people understand the complexity of things here. We are not talking about your "average" local bank that can find many easy way to "trust" you and that can talk to you face to face and solve any issue you may have. We in the other hands work on a global scale with document that are sometimes not in our own languages and with different regulations and needs. In Japan we do not have bank statement for example so I cannot send any of such document to a company that ask for it. There are also people who do not have address at their name... Bottom line, yes this is can be unpleasant for some but the majority of people seems to go with it without much problems by simply providing the document needed and if you cannot there are still some other possibilities we can try.

I understand that in finance and healthcare you err strongly on the side of safety, but sometimes you cross into the illogical. This is where good customer service or management is needed.

My friend sent bitcoins to MTGOX. He also submits his personal information. It throws flags. Okay, fine, don't let him withdraw money from this account. But why would you prevent him from withdrawing his bitcoins (as bitcoins)? Even if he is not who he says he is IRL, he is still clearly the account owner. If he had not submitted the information in the first place, he would have been fine to withdraw his coins as an unverified user. I don't believe he's even done anything other than deposit bitcoins.

Obviously, I don't think anything nefarious at all is going on here, but you can understand how that could easily be insinuated, especially by someone cynical and frustrated. And you probably know that everyone strives for 100% customer satisfaction because even a tiny minority, if vocal, can make you lose a lot of reputation. It's probably true that your process works for most people, but you should strive to make sure that the "special circumstances" get handled with TLC and within a reasonable time frame.

And I have no beef with mtgox atm. I'm just offering constructive criticism. Sorry if this makes you look bad or if you've heard this too many times before.

Thanks for your comment. We never said we were/are perfect, however we are working toward perfection (If perfection can be achieved). The Bitcoin community is very different from any other community. I have been handling for several years customers in one of my previous business and what while there had many special cases, I never expected to see that what was rare and unique in other business is actually pretty common with Bitcoin. This is challenging and while it could be frustrating from both parties I believe that overcoming this challenge will be beneficial for many and not only in the Bitcoin World (This could be used as a case study).

Bitcoin is a fantastic concept and a great experimental project. Please remember that Bitcoin is STILL an EXPERIMENT (Bitcoin is an experimental new digital currency that enables instant payments to anyone, anywhere in the world. http://bitcoin.org/) and that EVERYONE here is working/moving in uncharted waters. With time we are all learning and improving.

Now yes Bitcoin and with what all it promised attracted two kind of people : Honest & Dishonest people. And what Dishonest people try to do is to blend in, make sure that they will not raise any flags, while at first these people used rather dumb way to conceal their behavior, Yeah I am talking to you, the 80 Years old Eastern European Lady with a brand news Passport that fully mastered the art of concealing IPs (True story by the way), these people started to be come, unfortunately, more clever.

Now the challenge that we face and that many other must has as well is that most if not all honest Bitcoin users are tech savvy or at least know better than the average person(s) about tech and these peoples are looking, for good reasons, to reduce as much as possible their digital footprint or in in many cases are young peoples/entrepreneurs that have yet gain full independence (There are of course other "profile").

Now as you can understand, it is easy for Dishonest people to blend in. After all what's wrong in willing to minimize you Digital footprint? There is nothing wrong in being a young adult trying to make a living and still having her/his parents supports? There is nothing wrong in having lost your job and have to move back with your parents/bothers/sisters or any relative in your adult live and not being able to offer a "utility Bill" as proof of residence add to that a layer of "Globalization" and you have a unique "honeypot" for Dishonest people to strive.

So yes we sometime seems unfair, sometimes we may ask you documents that can be difficult or expensive to get, but please understand that we are doing so in order to make sure that people using Mt.Gox are honest people that want to jump into this EXPERIMENT with the rest of us. We are working on making things easier or at least less painful but this take time and despite being the largest exchange we have financial and human limitations.

Cheers

[bg002h]

Do you?

Yes. But I'd only keep mine with MtGox. I've been with MtGox pre-2011 bubble and feel comfortable with their security and efforts at doing things legally.

If so, let me be the first to tell you that you're in for some paperwork and frozen funds.

Not me. I'm with MtGox and I'm verified. I am comfortable being known and don't desire total anonymity. Some of us have to be willing to play by these rules if we want Bitcoin to succeed...so that hopefully in the future such privacy invasions won't be necessary.

[bg002h]

With all the hacks that have happened so far in the Bitcoin community, I would be leery of storing a significant quantity of BTC at any exchange.

Using a wallet on my Mac behind seven proxies and fourteen firewalls doing Time Machine backups every hour to my Synology NAS seems to be working pretty well for me so far.

Do you use an encrypted disk image?  I would.

[sveetsnelda]

And YEP you can withdraw funds without being AML/KYC or a Verified/Trusted Mt.Gox member, a HUGE chunk of our customers are not verified!

Yeah...  that's until you decide to verify your account so that you can use Dwolla as a withdrawal method and MtGox claims that your ID is fake.  All funds locked.  No withdraw methods possible.  Awesome.  My ID was as "plain Jane" and legitimate as it gets.  Nothing special or out of the ordinary.  I was better off *before* sending you information about myself.

Once my notarized documents arrive, I know what *not* to do with my money next time.

[dentldir]

And YEP you can withdraw funds without being AML/KYC or a Verified/Trusted Mt.Gox member, a HUGE chunk of our customers are not verified!

Yeah...  that's until you decide to verify your account so that you can use Dwolla as a withdrawal method and MtGox claims that your ID is fake.  All funds locked.  No withdraw methods possible.  Awesome.  My ID was as "plain Jane" and legitimate as it gets.  Nothing special or out of the ordinary.  I was better off *before* sending you information about myself.

Once my notarized documents arrive, I know what *not* to do with my money next time.

I'm in the same situation, ID sent, regarded as suspicious, then funds locked.  No withdraw methods possible at all.  To be clear, not even Bitcoin withdraw of Bitcoins I kept depositing without being informed my account was locked.  I only found out after trying every withdraw on the site and getting the error "Your account is under review" and then filing a ticket.

This is one area where Mt. Gox needs to be very clear up front on their web interface.   They need to state exactly what formats they accept and do not accept (scans versus photographs).  They need to publish general guidelines on why documents are rejected (Names and addresses must be spelled identically on every document).  They need to state that there is a possibility that your account can be locked indefinitely if the verification process cannot be completed.  Then explain all the ways the process might fail.  Even if its in a big long Terms of Service like document that no one ever reads, I would have liked to have the chance to know what the situation was.

They should also explain that the process of getting a document notarized will vary depending on where you live.  Some places don't let notaries copy certify photographs.  Which means your ID can't be notarized without an affidavit on a separate page.  Then when you get the notarization authenticated by getting an Apostille, you will need to send them to your local goverment officials who will have their own rules you have to follow.  I've gone back and forth 3 times with my Secretary Of State so far try to get the Apostille.

To be fair, they've been responsive on their ticketing system and have maintained good communication on the issue.  But why an unverified account can do withdraws but an in process verification cannot I do not understand.  Especially if the amounts involved are below the unverified threshold.

[Mt.Gox_Alex]

I'm in the same situation, ID sent, regarded as suspicious, then funds locked.  No withdraw methods possible at all.  To be clear, not even Bitcoin withdraw of Bitcoins I kept depositing without being informed my account was locked.  I only found out after trying every withdraw on the site and getting the error "Your account is under review" and then filing a ticket.

It is not possible for us to keep you out from deposing funds, the system (financial) is made that even if an account is closed or let's imagine destroyed, the money will reach our bank account regardless.

This is one area where Mt. Gox needs to be very clear up front on their web interface.   They need to state exactly what formats they accept and do not accept (scans versus photographs).  They need to publish general guidelines on why documents are rejected (Names and addresses must be spelled identically on every document).  They need to state that there is a possibility that your account can be locked indefinitely if the verification process cannot be completed.  Then explain all the ways the process might fail.  Even if its in a big long Terms of Service like document that no one ever reads, I would have liked to have the chance to know what the situation was.

Is this not already clear enough with our new system ? (see here = http://cl.ly/image/3A060s460V3Z and http://cl.ly/image/3w233S2n2y2B). And we do accept photographs of an ID, but most of the time they are coming to us in very bad quality (Blurry, Too small, too dark...)

They should also explain that the process of getting a document notarized will vary depending on where you live.  Some places don't let notaries copy certify photographs.  Which means your ID can't be notarized without an affidavit on a separate page.  Then when you get the notarization authenticated by getting an Apostille, you will need to send them to your local goverment officials who will have their own rules you have to follow.  I've gone back and forth 3 times with my Secretary Of State so far try to get the Apostille.

Each countires have their own set of rules we cannot know them all, this is why we are open to the discussion and try to make things work. Of course with every case we learn and as soon as we gather enough on that matter we will be then able to better direct people on what to do based on their location/situation.

To be fair, they've been responsive on their ticketing system and have maintained good communication on the issue.  

Thank you

But why an unverified account can do withdraws but an in process verification cannot I do not understand.  Especially if the amounts involved are below the unverified threshold.

Simply because we are legally bound to do so. We do not make the rules here, we just apply them.

[Mt.Gox_Alex]

Yeah...  that's until you decide to verify your account so that you can use Dwolla as a withdrawal method and MtGox claims that your ID is fake.  All funds locked.  No withdraw methods possible.  Awesome.  My ID was as "plain Jane" and legitimate as it gets.  Nothing special or out of the ordinary.  I was better off *before* sending you information about myself.

I cannot explain or comment on why your ID has been flagged as fake, but better the quality of the ID scan/photo is the better it is. There is no "REASONABLE DOUBTS" here, every documents are checked one at a time by people (not a machine) and the slightest doubt will invalid a document. We accept documents up to 8MB (each) so do not hesitate to upload hi-resolution/clear files.

Once my notarized documents arrive, I know what *not* to do with my money next time.

Try to see the bigger picture here. Our continuous effort in order to get things by the book is to make sure that we comply with the authorities and banks, if we don't we will have to shutdown. More Bitcoin companies comply with the basic laws quicker Bitcoin will be accepted and respected.

[sveetsnelda]

I cannot explain or comment on why your ID has been flagged as fake, but better the quality of the ID scan/photo is the better it is. There is no "REASONABLE DOUBTS" here, every documents are checked one at a time by people (not a machine) and the slightest doubt will invalid a document. We accept documents up to 8MB (each) so do not hesitate to upload hi-resolution/clear files.

I uploaded the photo using a halfway decent phone camera.  I have a good SLR that I can take a picture with instead.  It didn't seem like I was given this option afterward though (and I went back-and-forth on a support request about it).  Nobody said "can you get us a better picture, please?".  I was simply told that my ID was fake and that my only option was mailing documents.  Do I just re-upload it on the site?

Try to see the bigger picture here. Our continuous effort in order to get things by the book is to make sure that we comply with the authorities and banks, if we don't we will have to shutdown. More Bitcoin companies comply with the basic laws quicker Bitcoin will be accepted and respected.

I completely understand this.  I'm not saying that one should not comply with the law.  If I did something suspicious with my account and I was flagged, that would be one thing.  However, my account was in good standing.  If I were aware that by submitting my ID that I could possibly be locked out of my funds for weeks/months, I certainly wouldn't have done it (or I would have pulled the funds first).  You still allowed deposits and trade -- just not withdrawals in any form (not even BTC).  It seems crazy that by voluntarily becoming less anonymous, I ran the risk of being labeled fraudulent and having access to my funds frozen.

The site apparently needs a bit more warning or communication?

[dentldir]

It is not possible for us to keep you out from deposing funds, the system (financial) is made that even if an account is closed or let's imagine destroyed, the money will reach our bank account regardless.

Understood.  However, the web interface showed no indication that my account was frozen.  I believe a frozen account should show a full page warning every time you login that the account is frozen for withdraw but that you can still trade and deposit.  That way a user can make an informed decision on where their mining deposits go.

Is this not already clear enough with our new system ? (see here = http://cl.ly/image/3A060s460V3Z and http://cl.ly/image/3w233S2n2y2B). And we do accept photographs of an ID, but most of the time they are coming to us in very bad quality (Blurry, Too small, too dark...)

These guides are much better.  The second image should also say that the name on the ID must be exactly the same as on the document.  My local water company puts "Current Owner" on the bill because they don't care who pays it.  I believe this is the one issue that made my documents "suspicious".

It also needs to say that you can't send additional documents once you are flagged as suspicious. The documents you pick are the ones you have to work with.  I could have picked two other utility bills that had my name on them.  I still could send them, but its apparently a one way trip once the process was started for legal reasons.  I would like to understand this better.

Each countires have their own set of rules we cannot know them all, this is why we are open to the discussion and try to make things work. Of course with every case we learn and as soon as we gather enough on that matter we will be then able to better direct people on what to do based on their location/situation.

I understand.  You guys might want to setup a user edited wiki for users to describe the process for their region.  I'd be happy to write one for mine after having to deal with my local government.  Just finding the right form to submit the documents to the Secretary Of State took some digging, much less getting them to accept them.  None of the notaries I talked to even knew what an Apostille was (nor did I at the time).

Simply because we are legally bound to do so. We do not make the rules here, we just apply them.

I know the complexities of the federal legal system just in one country.  I imagine it is much more complex on an international scale.

Honestly, my initial reaction was to try and withdraw everything and close the account.  Now I suspect that every exchange will eventually have to implement a similar set of rules to what you have.   It is what it is I suppose.  I'm glad to see the improvements you have made so far.

[Mt.Gox_Alex]

I cannot explain or comment on why your ID has been flagged as fake, but better the quality of the ID scan/photo is the better it is. There is no "REASONABLE DOUBTS" here, every documents are checked one at a time by people (not a machine) and the slightest doubt will invalid a document. We accept documents up to 8MB (each) so do not hesitate to upload hi-resolution/clear files.

I uploaded the photo using a halfway decent phone camera.  I have a good SLR that I can take a picture with instead.  It didn't seem like I was given this option afterward though (and I went back-and-forth on a support request about it).  Nobody said "can you get us a better picture, please?".  I was simply told that my ID was fake and that my only option was mailing documents.  Do I just re-upload it on the site?

Try to see the bigger picture here. Our continuous effort in order to get things by the book is to make sure that we comply with the authorities and banks, if we don't we will have to shutdown. More Bitcoin companies comply with the basic laws quicker Bitcoin will be accepted and respected.

I completely understand this.  I'm not saying that one should not comply with the law.  If I did something suspicious with my account and I was flagged, that would be one thing.  However, my account was in good standing.  If I were aware that by submitting my ID that I could possibly be locked out of my funds for weeks/months, I certainly wouldn't have done it (or I would have pulled the funds first).  You still allowed deposits and trade -- just not withdrawals in any form (not even BTC).  It seems crazy that by voluntarily becoming less anonymous, I ran the risk of being labeled fraudulent and having access to my funds frozen.

The site apparently needs a bit more warning or communication?

Once again I cannot comment since for obvious reasons I do not have access to your personal data, but the slightest doubt will scale the problem and require notarized documents, and once done there are no turning back in the process, meaning that uploading new documents/better ones will not be enough.

[Mt.Gox_Alex]

Understood.  However, the web interface showed no indication that my account was frozen.  I believe a frozen account should show a full page warning every time you login that the account is frozen for withdraw but that you can still trade and deposit.  That way a user can make an informed decision on where their mining deposits go.

We have debating this and still debate this as we speak, but think this way (and look what happen to Mat Honan from Wired): If we alert immediately that the account is lock we gave immediately a hint to a hacker/fraudster a clue on what triggered what. Such information for these persons are priceless and they will then immediately react to prevent such thing to happen again and send better counterfeit documents. We are working on adapting your response time and how we communicate, but we have to find the correct compromise.

These guides are much better.  The second image should also say that the name on the ID must be exactly the same as on the document.  My local water company puts "Current Owner" on the bill because they don't care who pays it.  I believe this is the one issue that made my documents "suspicious".

It also needs to say that you can't send additional documents once you are flagged as suspicious. The documents you pick are the ones you have to work with.  I could have picked two other utility bills that had my name on them.  I still could send them, but its apparently a one way trip once the process was started for legal reasons.  I would like to understand this better.

This is indeed need to be improved.

I understand.  You guys might want to setup a user edited wiki for users to describe the process for their region.  I'd be happy to write one for mine after having to deal with my local government.  Just finding the right form to submit the documents to the Secretary Of State took some digging, much less getting them to accept them.  None of the notaries I talked to even knew what an Apostille was (nor did I at the time).

This is worth checking... I will put this on our next internal meeting agenda.

I know the complexities of the federal legal system just in one country.  I imagine it is much more complex on an international scale.

Honestly, my initial reaction was to try and withdraw everything and close the account.  Now I suspect that every exchange will eventually have to implement a similar set of rules to what you have.   It is what it is I suppose.  I'm glad to see the improvements you have made so far.

Every exchange that wants to work in some area of the world will have to comply one way or another, also I would rather put my money on an exchange that follow AML/KYC procedure than one that does not follow them, the one that follow this procedure are on the safe side as far as the authorities and banks are concerned.