[ANN] CRAVE 1st POS Masternodes | Dark Assets | I2P | Market =Embrace The Dark=

[Starin]

 I am trying to buy crave for crave market. I collected 9000 crave. If i get 1000 crave more it ll happen. I ll be the first operatör in the market

wow nice, you almost there   what do you guys think how profitable would be to run a market? i understand that market owner can set up fee and that will generate profits. will there be certain % of sales that goes to market owner? what about vendor collateral amount of 100Crave, will it belong to market owner or it will be hold as insurance against fraud? sry didn't understand that part totally  

From what I understand, vendor bond amount is determined by the market operator. So there will be a competition in that. More market operators would like to set low bond amount to lure vendors in. Also market operators will get the transaction fee they set, so there will be a competition on that too.

Let's say I opened a market with 500 CRAVE vendor bond amount and I said I would take %5 of the deals. Than olcaytu2005 comes and says the vendor bond amount in his market is only 250 CRAVE and he would only take %4 of every transaction. Competition = better service, lower prices = liberal economy.

I don't know about the insurance part but I guess it won't because market operator will pass the transaction after getting confirmation that the goods arrived. I believe as long as the locked amount is there seller is able to "sell" and put orders.

About the profitibility, only time will tell. I am hoping to see an easy to use marketplace with a cool design. As long as we spread the word and actually start to sell things ourselves, why not? I wouldn't expect a good return in one year, but as more vendors and markets are in the scene, it will (profit) definetly keep rising.

Anyway, we will understand and learn more when it releases. I am so excited.

By the way, we discussed this before but I really like the idea of having a market operator as a middleman. The trustless, "decentralized" markets doesn't fit in my logic, its just not realistic to me. There are thousands of ways abusing such a deal.

This thread have always hundreds of trolls.
Buy and hold, dont panic!

Agreed. Stake or let your mn's pay you nice income.

[trader19]

 I am trying to buy crave for crave market. I collected 9000 crave. If i get 1000 crave more it ll happen. I ll be the first operatör in the market

wow nice, you almost there   what do you guys think how profitable would be to run a market? i understand that market owner can set up fee and that will generate profits. will there be certain % of sales that goes to market owner? what about vendor collateral amount of 100Crave, will it belong to market owner or it will be hold as insurance against fraud? sry didn't understand that part totally  

From what I understand, vendor bond amount is determined by the market operator. So there will be a competition in that. More market operators would like to set low bond amount to lure vendors in. Also market operators will get the transaction fee they set, so there will be a competition on that too.

Let's say I opened a market with 500 CRAVE vendor bond amount and I said I would take %5 of the deals. Than olcaytu2005 comes and says the vendor bond amount in his market is only 250 CRAVE and he would only take %4 of every transaction. Competition = better service, lower prices = liberal economy.

I don't know about the insurance part but I guess it won't because market operator will pass the transaction after getting confirmation that the goods arrived. I believe as long as the locked amount is there seller is able to "sell" and put orders.

About the profitibility, only time will tell. I am hoping to see an easy to use marketplace with a cool design. As long as we spread the word and actually start to sell things ourselves, why not? I wouldn't expect a good return in one year, but as more vendors and markets are in the scene, it will (profit) definetly keep rising.

Anyway, we will understand and learn more when it releases. I am so excited.

By the way, we discussed this before but I really like the idea of having a market operator as a middleman. The trustless, "decentralized" markets doesn't fit in my logic, its just not realistic to me. There are thousands of ways abusing such a deal.

This thread have always hundreds of trolls.
Buy and hold, dont panic!

Agreed. Stake or let your mn's pay you nice income.

well this is really exciting, can't wait to get my hand onto new wallet. love the concept, definitely my favorite alt project ever.. aftermarkets release i hope ICM will bring BLUR to life, that will be also interesting  

[tkon3]

 I am trying to buy crave for crave market. I collected 9000 crave. If i get 1000 crave more it ll happen. I ll be the first operatör in the market

wow nice, you almost there   what do you guys think how profitable would be to run a market? i understand that market owner can set up fee and that will generate profits. will there be certain % of sales that goes to market owner? what about vendor collateral amount of 100Crave, will it belong to market owner or it will be hold as insurance against fraud? sry didn't understand that part totally  

From what I understand, vendor bond amount is determined by the market operator. So there will be a competition in that. More market operators would like to set low bond amount to lure vendors in. Also market operators will get the transaction fee they set, so there will be a competition on that too.

Let's say I opened a market with 500 CRAVE vendor bond amount and I said I would take %5 of the deals. Than olcaytu2005 comes and says the vendor bond amount in his market is only 250 CRAVE and he would only take %4 of every transaction. Competition = better service, lower prices = liberal economy.

I don't know about the insurance part but I guess it won't because market operator will pass the transaction after getting confirmation that the goods arrived.

Anyway, we will understand and learn more when it releases. I am so excited.

By the way, we discussed this before but I really like the idea of having a market operator as a middleman. The trustless, "decentralized" markets doesn't fit in my logic, its just not realistic to me. There are thousands of ways abusing such a deal.

This thread have always hundreds of trolls.
Buy and hold, dont panic!

Agreed. Stake or let your mn's pay you nice income.

Only few guys will be able to open a market if Crave price rises since you need 10k crave to open one as a collateral. We will probably see a monopoly/duapoly because MN & stake can be more profitable if the volume is too low on this market.
At current price its about 8 btc (more than 2k$) to open a market.
And yes the market operator is supposed to be paid with fees afaik.

[Starin]

 I am trying to buy crave for crave market. I collected 9000 crave. If i get 1000 crave more it ll happen. I ll be the first operatör in the market

wow nice, you almost there   what do you guys think how profitable would be to run a market? i understand that market owner can set up fee and that will generate profits. will there be certain % of sales that goes to market owner? what about vendor collateral amount of 100Crave, will it belong to market owner or it will be hold as insurance against fraud? sry didn't understand that part totally  

From what I understand, vendor bond amount is determined by the market operator. So there will be a competition in that. More market operators would like to set low bond amount to lure vendors in. Also market operators will get the transaction fee they set, so there will be a competition on that too.

Let's say I opened a market with 500 CRAVE vendor bond amount and I said I would take %5 of the deals. Than olcaytu2005 comes and says the vendor bond amount in his market is only 250 CRAVE and he would only take %4 of every transaction. Competition = better service, lower prices = liberal economy.

I don't know about the insurance part but I guess it won't because market operator will pass the transaction after getting confirmation that the goods arrived.

Anyway, we will understand and learn more when it releases. I am so excited.

By the way, we discussed this before but I really like the idea of having a market operator as a middleman. The trustless, "decentralized" markets doesn't fit in my logic, its just not realistic to me. There are thousands of ways abusing such a deal.

This thread have always hundreds of trolls.
Buy and hold, dont panic!

Agreed. Stake or let your mn's pay you nice income.

Only few guys will be able to open a market if Crave price rises since you need 10k crave to open one as a collateral. We will probably see a monopoly/duapoly because MN & stake can be more profitable if the volume is too low on this market.
At current price its about 8 btc (more than 2k$) to open a market.
And yes the market operator is supposed to be paid with fees afaik.

That is correct. But also not many people supposed to open markets anyway, 2k$ investment for a market is nothing at the moment. If you want to purchase a buy&sell website just like ebay from a developer it would be at least 20x of that investment. Even ready to use php scripts cost around 3-4k$ and they still need a lot of development. If the plan works out and the market gets some popularity, market operators will earn a lot more than stakers and MN holders for sure. But at the beginning it is expected to see not much profits. I also think (again, if the plan works out and markets get known by the sellers and buyers = big job for the community) there will be specific markets in the future such as clothing markets, digital downloadable product markets etc.

[tkon3]

 I am trying to buy crave for crave market. I collected 9000 crave. If i get 1000 crave more it ll happen. I ll be the first operatör in the market

wow nice, you almost there   what do you guys think how profitable would be to run a market? i understand that market owner can set up fee and that will generate profits. will there be certain % of sales that goes to market owner? what about vendor collateral amount of 100Crave, will it belong to market owner or it will be hold as insurance against fraud? sry didn't understand that part totally  

From what I understand, vendor bond amount is determined by the market operator. So there will be a competition in that. More market operators would like to set low bond amount to lure vendors in. Also market operators will get the transaction fee they set, so there will be a competition on that too.

Let's say I opened a market with 500 CRAVE vendor bond amount and I said I would take %5 of the deals. Than olcaytu2005 comes and says the vendor bond amount in his market is only 250 CRAVE and he would only take %4 of every transaction. Competition = better service, lower prices = liberal economy.

I don't know about the insurance part but I guess it won't because market operator will pass the transaction after getting confirmation that the goods arrived.

Anyway, we will understand and learn more when it releases. I am so excited.

By the way, we discussed this before but I really like the idea of having a market operator as a middleman. The trustless, "decentralized" markets doesn't fit in my logic, its just not realistic to me. There are thousands of ways abusing such a deal.

This thread have always hundreds of trolls.
Buy and hold, dont panic!

Agreed. Stake or let your mn's pay you nice income.

Only few guys will be able to open a market if Crave price rises since you need 10k crave to open one as a collateral. We will probably see a monopoly/duapoly because MN & stake can be more profitable if the volume is too low on this market.
At current price its about 8 btc (more than 2k$) to open a market.
And yes the market operator is supposed to be paid with fees afaik.

That is correct. But also not many people supposed to open markets anyway, 2k$ investment for a market is nothing at the moment. If you want to purchase a buy&sell website just like ebay from a developer it would be at least 20x of that investment. Even ready to use php scripts cost around 3-4k$ and they still need a lot of development. If the plan works out and the market gets some popularity, market operators will earn a lot more than stakers and MN holders for sure. But at the beginning it is expected to see not much profits. I also think (again, if the plan works out and markets get known by the sellers and buyers = big job for the community) there will be specific markets in the future such as clothing markets, digital downloadable product markets etc.

Correct. And another fact is that the 10k crave aren't lost, you can take them back if you want to close your market, thats what i understood.
So opening a market is not really an investisment. Anyway the profitability will depend on volume & popularity.

[trader19]

 I am trying to buy crave for crave market. I collected 9000 crave. If i get 1000 crave more it ll happen. I ll be the first operatör in the market

wow nice, you almost there   what do you guys think how profitable would be to run a market? i understand that market owner can set up fee and that will generate profits. will there be certain % of sales that goes to market owner? what about vendor collateral amount of 100Crave, will it belong to market owner or it will be hold as insurance against fraud? sry didn't understand that part totally  

From what I understand, vendor bond amount is determined by the market operator. So there will be a competition in that. More market operators would like to set low bond amount to lure vendors in. Also market operators will get the transaction fee they set, so there will be a competition on that too.

Let's say I opened a market with 500 CRAVE vendor bond amount and I said I would take %5 of the deals. Than olcaytu2005 comes and says the vendor bond amount in his market is only 250 CRAVE and he would only take %4 of every transaction. Competition = better service, lower prices = liberal economy.

I don't know about the insurance part but I guess it won't because market operator will pass the transaction after getting confirmation that the goods arrived.

Anyway, we will understand and learn more when it releases. I am so excited.

By the way, we discussed this before but I really like the idea of having a market operator as a middleman. The trustless, "decentralized" markets doesn't fit in my logic, its just not realistic to me. There are thousands of ways abusing such a deal.

This thread have always hundreds of trolls.
Buy and hold, dont panic!

Agreed. Stake or let your mn's pay you nice income.

Only few guys will be able to open a market if Crave price rises since you need 10k crave to open one as a collateral. We will probably see a monopoly/duapoly because MN & stake can be more profitable if the volume is too low on this market.
At current price its about 8 btc (more than 2k$) to open a market.
And yes the market operator is supposed to be paid with fees afaik.

That is correct. But also not many people supposed to open markets anyway, 2k$ investment for a market is nothing at the moment. If you want to purchase a buy&sell website just like ebay from a developer it would be at least 20x of that investment. Even ready to use php scripts cost around 3-4k$ and they still need a lot of development. If the plan works out and the market gets some popularity, market operators will earn a lot more than stakers and MN holders for sure. But at the beginning it is expected to see not much profits. I also think (again, if the plan works out and markets get known by the sellers and buyers = big job for the community) there will be specific markets in the future such as clothing markets, digital downloadable product markets etc.

Correct. And another fact is that the 10k crave aren't lost, you can take them back if you want to close your market, thats what i understood.
So opening a market is not really an investisment. Anyway the profitability will depend on volume & popularity.

ty guys for explaining, its alot clearer for me now.. am i the only one excited about upcoming release or do you guys also feel the URGE? 

[Starin]

Yes. It wont happen in a day for sure. Sellers would like to cash out when they can and that needs liquidity. So buyers should be forced to buy Crave because of the uniqueness of products offered. Its a paradox. But we have a strong community over here, we should be able to spread the word as much as we can.

@trader I am more than excited. Not just because I hold some Crave but also because I am curious how icm will surprise us again.

And I know a lot of people are watching this thread, I am sure they are excited too.

[Abou Talha]

Yes, I'm watching this thread, and I have more than 1000 Crave.

[trader19]

 I am trying to buy crave for crave market. I collected 9000 crave. If i get 1000 crave more it ll happen. I ll be the first operatör in the market

wow nice, you almost there   what do you guys think how profitable would be to run a market? i understand that market owner can set up fee and that will generate profits. will there be certain % of sales that goes to market owner? what about vendor collateral amount of 100Crave, will it belong to market owner or it will be hold as insurance against fraud? sry didn't understand that part totally  

From what I understand, vendor bond amount is determined by the market operator. So there will be a competition in that. More market operators would like to set low bond amount to lure vendors in. Also market operators will get the transaction fee they set, so there will be a competition on that too.

Let's say I opened a market with 500 CRAVE vendor bond amount and I said I would take %5 of the deals. Than olcaytu2005 comes and says the vendor bond amount in his market is only 250 CRAVE and he would only take %4 of every transaction. Competition = better service, lower prices = liberal economy.

I don't know about the insurance part but I guess it won't because market operator will pass the transaction after getting confirmation that the goods arrived.

Anyway, we will understand and learn more when it releases. I am so excited.

By the way, we discussed this before but I really like the idea of having a market operator as a middleman. The trustless, "decentralized" markets doesn't fit in my logic, its just not realistic to me. There are thousands of ways abusing such a deal.

This thread have always hundreds of trolls.
Buy and hold, dont panic!

Agreed. Stake or let your mn's pay you nice income.

Only few guys will be able to open a market if Crave price rises since you need 10k crave to open one as a collateral. We will probably see a monopoly/duapoly because MN & stake can be more profitable if the volume is too low on this market.
At current price its about 8 btc (more than 2k$) to open a market.
And yes the market operator is supposed to be paid with fees afaik.

That is correct. But also not many people supposed to open markets anyway, 2k$ investment for a market is nothing at the moment. If you want to purchase a buy&sell website just like ebay from a developer it would be at least 20x of that investment. Even ready to use php scripts cost around 3-4k$ and they still need a lot of development. If the plan works out and the market gets some popularity, market operators will earn a lot more than stakers and MN holders for sure. But at the beginning it is expected to see not much profits. I also think (again, if the plan works out and markets get known by the sellers and buyers = big job for the community) there will be specific markets in the future such as clothing markets, digital downloadable product markets etc.

Correct. And another fact is that the 10k crave aren't lost, you can take them back if you want to close your market, thats what i understood.
So opening a market is not really an investisment. Anyway the profitability will depend on volume & popularity.

ty guys for explaining, its alot clearer for me now.. am i the only one excited about upcoming release or do you guys also feel the URGE? 

interesting read, posting again so it doesn't get lost.

[tkon3]

Yes, I'm watching this thread, and I have more than 1000 Crave.

You need 10 times more if you want to open a market  

[rocoro]

By the way, we discussed this before but I really like the idea of having a market operator as a middleman. The trustless, "decentralized" markets doesn't fit in my logic, its just not realistic to me. There are thousands of ways abusing such a deal.

I like both market ideas.

But I don't see though how there is "thousands of ways" to abuse a 2 party system controlled by the code/network.

If buyer and seller both are not satisfied then neither gets their money out of escrow till an agreement is reached, simple as that, no third party to muck things up.

Whereas a middleman can scam because they could be both  - the market owner could also be the seller (or know the seller),  thus doing whatever they want to steal from someone.

[Starin]

By the way, we discussed this before but I really like the idea of having a market operator as a middleman. The trustless, "decentralized" markets doesn't fit in my logic, its just not realistic to me. There are thousands of ways abusing such a deal.

I like both market ideas.

But I don't see though how there is "thousands of ways" to abuse a 2 party system controlled by the code/network.

If buyer and seller both are not satisfied then neither gets their money out of escrow till an agreement is reached, simple as that, no third party to muck things up.

Whereas a middleman can scam because they could be both  - the market owner could also be the seller (or know the seller),  thus doing whatever they want to steal from someone.

So tell me, I ordered a physical good, the order arrived but I said it didn't, who has to be the judge here? Who will protect me? (If I am the seller) For me, I would only buy digital goods with such a system, that I can download instantly, otherwise I would always require a trusted middleman (the market operator in this case).

[rocoro]

Satoshi himself spoke against a third party system (also a basis behind decentralized cryptocurrency in general) in the bitcoin whitepaper:

Commerce on the Internet has come to rely almost exclusively on financial institutions serving as
trusted third parties to process electronic payments.   While the system works well enough for
most   transactions,   it   still   suffers   from   the   inherent   weaknesses   of   the   trust   based   model.

[Jookly]

By the way, we discussed this before but I really like the idea of having a market operator as a middleman. The trustless, "decentralized" markets doesn't fit in my logic, its just not realistic to me. There are thousands of ways abusing such a deal.

I like both market ideas.

But I don't see though how there is "thousands of ways" to abuse a 2 party system controlled by the code/network.

If buyer and seller both are not satisfied then neither gets their money out of escrow till an agreement is reached, simple as that, no third party to muck things up.

Whereas a middleman can scam because they could be both  - the market owner could also be the seller (or know the seller),  thus doing whatever they want to steal from someone.

I am excited to see this system in action but I do see a possibility for a problem where the seller is being malicious and has no intention of selling the product.  Couldn't they get peoples crave stuck forever in the escrow just to be a dick?  I would hope that a seller doing that would get a bad reputation quickly and people would not deal with them anymore.  But how easily and quickly could this "prank" be duplicated and could it be an actual problem?

[rocoro]

So tell me, I ordered a physical good, the order arrived but I said it didn't, who has to be the judge here? Who will protect me? (If I am the seller) For me, I would only buy digital goods with such a system, that I can download instantly, otherwise I would always require a trusted middleman (the market operator in this case).

This is where I would say people would have to rely on a rating/review system and only stay with trusted sellers,  which goes against not using a trust based model, but also not much alternative.

I don't really mind which market succeeds, and I think its helpful for people to have options should one or the other not be to an individual's liking.

[Starin]

Satoshi himself spoke against a third party system (also a basis behind decentralized cryptocurrency in general) in the bitcoin whitepaper:

Commerce on the Internet has come to rely almost exclusively on financial institutions serving as
trusted third parties to process electronic payments.   While the system works well enough for
most   transactions,   it   still   suffers   from   the   inherent   weaknesses   of   the   trust   based   model.

Cryptocurrency is a different thing, market is a different thing.
And if you look at the white paper, bitcoin is now more monopolized than ever, so who cares about Satoshi's ideals anyways?

Tell me how does a 2nd party system doesn't need trust? Either buyer or seller I still have to be honest, otherwise I can abuse it very simply. Both systems can be abused, but what I am saying is that you have a authority to solve your problem in 3rd party system (market operator). The marketplace will be decentralized enough, with no control of blocking etc.

So tell me, I ordered a physical good, the order arrived but I said it didn't, who has to be the judge here? Who will protect me? (If I am the seller) For me, I would only buy digital goods with such a system, that I can download instantly, otherwise I would always require a trusted middleman (the market operator in this case).

This is where I would say people would have to rely on a rating/review system and only stay with trusted sellers,  which goes against not using a trust based model, but also not much alternative.

I don't really mind which market succeeds, and I think its helpful for people to have options should one or the other not be to an individual's liking.

But here is the problem, I have been in deepweb markets long enough to see even the most trusted sellers with over +1000 5 over 5 ratings tend to scam time to time. (They require FE - Finalize Early, so basically just because buyer has ++ rating you have to release the funds on the escrow and hope the seller send the goods)

I am excited to see this system in action but I do see a possibility for a problem where the seller is being malicious and has no intention of selling the product.  Couldn't they get peoples crave stuck forever in the escrow just to be a dick?  I would hope that a seller doing that would get a bad reputation quickly and people would not deal with them anymore.  But how easily and quickly could this "prank" be duplicated and could it be an actual problem?

With market operators acting as middlemans, there shouldn't be those problems. That's what I am trying to tell.
2 party systems are best for the digital goods that you get instantly after payment.

[tkon3]

I think the idea is to consider the market operator as a clearing house and a middleman. And the 10k crave work as a collateral if something goes wrong.
Or maybe im wrong.

[rocoro]

I think the idea is to consider the market operator as a clearing house and a middleman. And the 10k crave work as a collateral if something goes wrong.
Or maybe im wrong.

How is the 10k collateral? 

Could they just not set up another market (transfer funds to different wallet/identity) and resume under a new "market" ?

[tkon3]

I had said that supporting BTC in addition to Crave is not impossible but is challenging.  I know a way it can be done but it is something to slate on the schedule after getting the remaining items on the current roadmap out, as it will probably take some time and tinkering to prove it out.

The escrow in Crave is 3 party escrow.  The Urge market operator acts at the 3rd party.  As part of normal operations their node will auto-release the funds unless there is a dispute, in which case they can then mediate and decide what to do with the escrowed funds.

It is useful outside of the markets as well so it made sense to modularize it and do the escrow management as its own feature with workflow, this way it can be built and unit tested easier.  Its like dropping the engine in the car

Guess it can help.

[rocoro]

Well as I stated above, I don't see what prevents a market operator from just re-opening another market should things not go well.

And my main concern (in light of the above), is - where is there any code that prevents or checks for collusion?  

How is there any way to know the market operator doesn't know the seller and/or actually isn't the seller too!?

Otherwise Crave seems awesome and I hope it all does work out!  
Would be cool to see some pre-release, teaser screenshots if possible