Bitcoin Forum

Hello everyone.
Let's say I own a default trust account and decided to make a few bucks by helping people out.  Wanted to know which subforum to promote my business in.  I'm planning on using trusted escrow, so not scamming.
Thanks.

Services. Although your default trust account would likely get removed pretty quickly.

Also I know you are trying to create a smear campaign against me and it's not working.

What do you mean?  People need good trust, and I have it.  Selling it is not against the rules, so why would I get removed from default trust?


If people could buy trust in the open, new users would know to be on their guard and not get scammed.
The same reason Bitcointalk accounts should be bought and sold.

Not allowing trust to be sold on this forum would be like gun control -- that way, only criminals could buy trust.

Buy trust? This is why I ignore trust.

Both. Assuming you aren't the same person.

Please don't sell trust! Firstly because It isn't right! It promotes scams and makes the situation even worse! Secondly, after you deliver your first service to a client , there is a 99% chance that the client would reveal which account is selling trust! So you get busted after your very first attempt and you will get lots of neg in your account at default trust! So stay away!

Cause nothing says 'you can trust me' like a thread set up specifically to circumvent the system that some use to gauge whether or not to cough up their hard earned money to someone they don't really know.

might as well say if you send me money I'll help you scam others out of their money.

blech.

What would I be busted for, exactly?  Selling trust is not illegal, and I would be saving people money.  The way things stand now, people have to buy a whole new account with positive trust.  That's expensive and wasteful.

Also, do you have any evidence that people who buy trust are any more likely to scam?


I will use a trusted escrow, so you don't have to worry.
I'm not circumventing any system.
I have trust, I have earned it, it is mine, and I can use it however I want.  I'm not hurting anyone.

I imagine this.

Lol. I've Never seen like this before.

I did not know that honesty can be bought and sold. Why can't you yourself prove that you are honest by posting with your main account? I don't think an alt can be trusted.

Would be true, but I'll say user bought an account from me (i'll include a brand new never used account with each trust I sell).
I'll leave positive feedback about a successful account sale.
Don't worry, I'm not stupid, I won't get you in trouble.

You're funny! I guarantee the people who buy trust scam people! If they didn't want to scam, why wouldn't they trade honestly? They would automatically be trusted if they do trades for a long time without scamming! Selling trust isn't illegal. Any everything that is legal isn't right :) Hope you understand!

I'm not selling honesty, I'm selling trust.

Today, trust can only be bought packaged with a USED account.  I aim for more sophisticated clientele, discerning trust shoppers who do not wish to settle for used "consignment store" accounts.
Account, included with every Trust sold by BespokeServicesLTD, is always Bespoke and Brand New.

I'll tell you one thing:
Trust is earned, not bought!

how much for this?

So you don't have any evidence?  Fine.


It's hard for honest people without positive trust to be trusted by the community.  Investing in Quality BespokeServicesLTD Trust is investing in a head start on your competition, without the tedium of time and trust loans, allowing today's smart Bitcoin entrepreneur to hit the ground running.


As of tomorrow, it will be bought.  From me.  For a surprisingly reasonable sum.

"I'm selling fraud, but you can trust me, cause I'm so smaht."  LOL.  what a fucking idiot.

This is the best one:

"what evidence is there that someone that scams trust would scam others."  As if that is a valid question.



post using your main account if you are so sure that what you are doing is as legitimate as you claim it to be.


and lastly:  Get fucked you piece of shit.

Oh! You think I don't have any evidence? Actually I forgot to mention! So Here it is: ButterflyLabs
Buying trust from reputed members to scam!

Your turn! Evidence that they don't scam?

Edit: +1 Gomer.. but whats your real account? :P

You have not provided any evidence, kindly post a link.
Besides, why would we punish the many who use my trust responsibly for the wrongdoing of the few?


You are not posting from your main account, why is that?

I want to but +2 trust. I need two because I am going to lose one when I rip you off.  ;D

Link to scammers trust rating :
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=44366

Link to one of the many scams:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=114329.0

Is that enough? Now, give me your evidence!

You have not provided any evidence of that.  Kindly post a link.







Then go get fucked.

If you don't like the way the forum is run, then make your own. If it's truly a better way to run a forum, and this forum is so bad, then you should have no problem converting users, businesses, and making this forum obsolete.

If you really want to see a change, try having a rational conversation about it. I know you can. The trolling will just get ignored and won't accomplish anything.

The links are to accusations, not evidence.  Sure, Trust can be abused, but not BespokeServicesLTD Trust.
If selling trust was bad, I'm sure theymos would have made a rule against it.  He didn't, and here is why:

You can't ban selling Trust, there's no way to enforce that.  Trust would still be bought and sold, but newbies wouldn't know about it, so they won't be able to protect themselves.

I'm selling my Bespoke Quality trust in the open, on Bitcointalk, so newbies would know it's done all the time and will be more careful.
Just like selling accounts.
You're not against selling trusted accounts, are you?


I'm here on a forum that is mine as much as it is yours, to sell my trust, make a few $$ and help people out.
How is this trolling?

Are you implying that selling trust, without it being attached to an account, is substantially different from selling an account with green trust rating?
If so, explain how & why.
Rationally.

They are accusations and accusations are evidences! So what would you call an evidence?
And I am again telling you, "Trust is earned, not bought"!

Prove this! Give me a 101% guarantee!

Trust is bought to scam! I don't see a problem in escrowing the funds if you don't want to scam others! ! Why don't you show evidences of people who buy trust not scamming?

No, you're trolling to try and make a point about selling accounts/the trust system. I was trying to talk to you seriously, but carry on I guess.

If I accuse you of being a murderer, then, according to you, that's evidence of you being a murderer.
Please do not attempt buying Trust from me, your bid will be rejected.  I do not sell Trust to murderers.


I can not give you any evidence about my clients for the same reason my colleges, who sell Bitcointalk accounts, can not reveal the trusted accounts they sell: Privacy.

You opened a new account so soon: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=507594

I know you are disgusted with the buying and selling accounts but now you're just trolling and now others as well are entertaining your post.

Sell trust , What the fu** am I reading  ::)? In my opinion it is not against the forum rules (because those rules are not clear) but it is not frowned upon by all the other default trust member (and obviously all the community). Maybe I am wrong but this was only my opinion.

You're mistaken.  Why would anyone object to buying and selling of Bitcointalk accounts?  I'm all for it.
To complete your quality pre-owned account, consider complementing it with a purchase of Fine BespokeServicesLTD Trust.


My Trust Shop may be "frowned upon," but, as I understand it, so is buying and selling of user accounts.
Other than a trusted account being more expensive than my Bespoke Quality Trust, where do you see the difference?

Hmm... at the end it is (almost) the same thing but it is also obvious that when you (only as example) buy an account  you will buy all 'the account' with his history. Sell negative,positive or neutral trust is a little bit different than buying & selling of forum accounts.

However I do not think you will be able to sell 'bitcointalk trust' ;).

A whore with ethics. 

Just what this thread needed was a little comedy.

Yes, buying a pre-owned account is at times more convenient, but many already own perfectly serviceable aged accounts, requiring only an addition of our Quality Trust to compete in today's fast-paced cryptosphere.
BespokeServicesLTD Trust Boutique caters to the needs of just such discerning clients.

Regarding BespokeServices ability to retail Trust, I assure you there's no need for concern.  My account-dealing colleagues were once met with similar incredulous bemusement.

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win!

Yep, you can sell trust of course, but it will be valueless, because no one at the higher level is trusting your account :)

It will be like selling hot air, but it's ok if you find someone that want to buy it ;D

Good luck!

Now we're quoting Gandhi.

Do we get a free quote with every purchase also?

I mean free trust and philosophical enlightenment.  Holy Shit, sign me up.  This is like fortune cookies without the calories.  Sooo fuckin' good.



More and more obvious this is just a troll.   Otherwise quote prices and get this 'business' into a proper category.  I don't know what that category would be, but I do know Meta isn't it, leading to the only rational conclusion that this is a trolling escapade.

Allow me to direct your attention to the topic post, which was edited down for your convenience.

Pentax:
You clearly have nothing to contribute to the discussion.  Your foul language tells me that, according to Gandhi, BespokeServicesLTD has entered the "then they fight you" phase.

Kindly delete your post.

The short answer is blow me.

As you have already pointed out, this is my forum as much as yours. 

I'm sure Gandhi would approve of your selling of trust.  Maybe you can get a look-alike to do a commercial for this silly scam.

Special Today Only!  Use the sale code MAHATMA at checkout and to get 25% off your phony trust and a free copy of my e-book "The Troll's Handbook to Passive Resistance"  Tell em Bapu sent you!

the first post in this thread:


everyone's warning are true though.

I'm not sure how you expect this to work. Yes, selling trust isn't against the rules, but whoever has you in their trust list is going to remove you as soon as they see what you are doing. It will be pretty obvious, however cleverly you think you can do it.

I assure you, my trust is 100% real.  I have earned it, and now I'm making it available those who can afford it.
Save up your Satoshis, don't drug or gamble, and someday you'll be able to buy some Trust of your own.
And I'll be ready to sell it to you.

In the meantime, I thank you in advance for GTFO my thread.

MadZ: This account was already negative-ratted by Quickseller and a totally unrelated user who is totally not Quickseller within a few seconds after his comment.

Of course this account is not going to be trusted, that's why I plan to use a reputable escrow service.

Okay, but if we suppose that Alice will buy a positive from Bob (he is in the defaultTrust list | 2). After Alice will tell that Bob is selling positive trust... what do you think it will happen?

You shouldnt be selling trust ratings at all. This will only get your default trust removed and/or banned. Abusing the trust system is not allowed(I think)
But if you really want that, post it into digital goods or services (Marketplace)

If it is real then you are 100% an asshole.

I was convinced you were just trolling and poking a bit of fun.   I mean who could be so dumb as to not know where to put something for sale and choose Meta?  Anyone with anything more than a brain stem rolling around in their head could figure out that this is not the proper category.

but you insist otherwise, so at your insistence, now you're simply a piece of shit.

or a troll

or what results when a troll and a piece of shit mate.



whatever the case, I think I'll hang for a while.  how much is this phony trust anyhow?  If you're going to sell something you need to hone that sales pitch a bit I think.  and I am here to help.

Why should anything happen?  The Trust is mine, I have earned it, I can do with it as I choose, so I sell it.
There are no rules against selling Trust, I have delineated some plausible scenarios how bought trust could be used ethically, so not sure what your objection is?

What happens to Bob, a seller of trusted accounts, if Alice decides to rat him out?

Thats for whoever gave you your trust to decide. If you earn trust and then scam somebody, well you earned your trust previously, why should you lose it? Trust is a dynamic thing, if the person who added you to default trust no longer trusts you because you are doing something shady (selling trust is considered shady) then they are completely within their rights to remove you from default trust. If the person who trusted you doesn't take action, then the person who trusted them can take action, etc etc.

Selling trust is not against the forum rules.  If it was a bad thing, theymos would have made a rule against it.
That said, you are posting to up your post count, and I'm happy to legitimize your comment with a reply.
Remember my kindness, and consider purchasing Trust from BespokeServicesLTD when you feel you can afford it.
Thank you.

How much are you charging? I might know someone who is interested if the price is right.

Interesting. So you're saying that selling Trust is shady and might get me kicked from default trust, but selling an account with green trust is ...not shady?
The difference being?


I'm sad to say BespokeServicesLTD is not of yet prosperous enough to start enabling our direct competitors.
Soon.

I didn't say that. You could be kicked from default trust for saying "hello" too much. Its completely up to whoever trusted you in the first place. As you have said, there is no rule saying you can't sell trust, there is also no rule saying you can't give inaccurate feedback. There are no rules to the trust system at all, the community makes up the guidelines, and selling trust is generally frowned upon. The chances of you being removed from default trust by whoever added you in the first place when they find out you are selling trust is incredibly high. And if they don't, whoever added that person to default trust may re evaluate based on that person's inaction.

That said, I do believe this is all a hypothetical situation, because anyone actually on default trust understands how it works better than what you are displaying. Not to say that this hypothetical question isn't worth addressing.

Yes, and selling accounts is also "frowned upon," or "discouraged."  And yet... default trust members are selling with one hand and neg repping with the other, creating demand for more trusted accounts.

Pretty sure I'll do OK here, have solid grasp on how the trust system works :)

*BTW, Haven't answered my question: why is selling my Trust somehow shadier than selling a trusted account? 

If selling accounts was frowned upon or discouraged, more people would leave account sellers negative feedback. People are welcome to if they wish. And I did answer your question, in response, I said, "I didn't say that" in regards to selling trusted accounts being less shady than selling trust. People are welcome to do what they will with their own opinions.

From the unofficial list of unofficial not rules but suggestions to be interpreted however you wish:

Yeah, I guess all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others.

https://odyssynlaertesa.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/folwark-zwierzc499cy-c59bwinie.jpg

If you start selling trusts, it would simply beat the purpose of the system. Wouldn't be surprised if thermos takes it down soon. :P

The obvious difference is that a person can sell one account that is now one bastardized account.

Doing this we have geometrically more bastardized accounts.

And "they're doing it" is nothing more than whining that anyone over the age of 10 realizes is juvenile justification. 

What you are proposing is wrong.  you know it and so does everyone else.  potentially helping people to scam people is aiding in that scam, regardless of what the forum rules are or who is doing this or that.

you are responsible for your own actions.  you are the individual proposing this.

doing this makes you a scammy piece of crap.  I do hope the community catches up with you on this and I think it likely that it will.  All of your crybaby shit aside, people don't like this type of shit and have seen too much of it.

mprep's forum guidelines reflect his personal opinion as well, hense the "unofficial" in the title. Account sales aren't discouraged by forum administration, because they don't care. If someone sells a trusted account, the chances of that account losing its trust are equally high.

Obvious troll is obvious guys.  I would just ignore him.   :-\

Why are you so confident that OP is a troll? What he's advertising sounds very plausible to me.

We all know that accounts with positive trust are already being trafficked, it wouldn't be impossible for someone to acquire an account in default trust level 2 and start giving out trust ratings for profit. How long this would last for is questionable though.

Yeah, I've noticed the unofficial in the title.


No shit?  But they'd start caring if I started selling Trust, you say?  I'm friends with them, perhaps they might not care so much?
You know, If I don't sell trust in the open, newbies might not realize that green trust could be bought, and might not be as careful as they should be.  That's why account selling is allowed on this forum, to educate the unwary, amirite?

Enough. You've earned the first spot on my ignore list :)

http://s3.postimg.org/6xr3hir77/littlefaggot.jpg

Nope, didn't say that either. Me warning you that it isn't a good idea doesnt equal an administrative ban on selling trust. If your friend gave you the trust that you then sell to people, your friend would then be removed most likely. It's not a rule, it's just how people tend to respond.

Again, your lack of understanding of how trust works leads me to believe that you are making a statement rather than actually selling trust.

Then let the OP sell a person trust.  He'll lose his trust right away.  This is nothing but hot air.

That's what makes me so confident the OP is a troll.  Put up or shut up.   :-\

No reason to get upset.
We're not dealing with worn-out legacy trust systems of yesteryear, Vod.  No!  This paradigm-shifting, game-changing disruptive technology is on the tipping point of turning into a Black Swan.  Revolutionary stuff, Vod, not to be rushed.

As soon as our legal team irons out the last few kinks and gives us the go-ahead, it's ON, it's Showtime!
Now then...
Will you be purchasing this Trust for your personal use, or as a gift for A Special Someone?

I'm not upset.

I'm just calling you a bullshitter.   ;)

And I'm done feeding the troll.

Oh goodness! Clicked on your trust, and one instance of my browser crashed; had to kill it with fire process explorer!
Guess the Good Folks at Google haven't though one tab would ever be called upon to handle so much red text  :(

Hope I didn't piss you off in any way, 'cos I wouldn't wanna be on your shitlist.  No sirree Boob!

Vod, this isn't just any troll. And this is satire worthy of Jonathan Swift. Why am I the only one to see it?! Am I wrong?

Unless someone that buys trust from him is willing to speak out (and publicly reveal that he bought trust from him therefore probably losing what he paid for) he could very well keep the name of the account that he'll be handling trust through private.

Edit: I know trust ratings are not private, what I meant to say is that it would be hard to be sure that it's his account.

Buying trust will never work. Trust could be removed the second the buyer pays and transactions are not reversible. I think OP is trolling Quickseller.  ;D

I think this is against the rules, directly selling/buying trust. ESPECIALLY from a default trusted member which can cause LOTS of scams, giving the green positive makes people much less careful and let their guard down.

Nope, its not against any rules. I'm actually hoping the OP isn't lying, and does have a default trust account that is going to sell trust. We haven't seen it done yet, or at least no one has claimed or proved it has happened, so it is worth seeing how effective the trust system is at self moderating these sorts of problems.

I expect they will lose their trust quickly, if I'm wrong, then there is a problem. If I'm right, then its business as usual. What level of default trust are you selling, and for how much? I've got no idea how much people would pay for trust, and if you are only on the 2nd or 3rd depth, I can't imagine your trust will be worth very much.

No reason why anyone should get mad. Get mad if it works and goes undetected.

In this thread most people seem upset about the idea of selling "trust". This is however a real and big business for many (SSL certificates are a prominent example, also bitcoin is all about trust isn't it?).

So if someone wants to be a trust provider on this forum, I say go for it. There are some reliable members providing this service, but they give trust when and where they think it's due. I'm not aware of any member providing trust on demand. I reckon it would have value.

I'm sure if they're accurate it would be a valuable service to some. Something similar happens with new hardware vendors. To be trusted they have to jump to various hoops (show actual hardware, have a company registration, show hardware hashing at a pool, have a "trusted" member visit them, have a "trusted" member review one of their products). And if they're not accurate they will get excluded from everyone's trust lists so fast it would cause a sonic boom.

PS. I know OP is trolling since their other avenues of discussion have not gone as planned.

Oh, Noz!   The Scammy Piece of Crap has put me on ignore.  That's a compliment turd-boy.

It's also funny that someone that is a self-professed purveyor of trust can't seem to handle the simple truth.





Oh, and I almost forgot:

http://media.giphy.com/media/1456BVmlt3zRa8/giphy.gif

Huh.  So if you gave an account some greentext, and that account is sold and goes on to scam, you'll be removed from default trust?
As an educator, I sell my trust in the open, on Bitcointalk, for the same reason accounts are sold: so that newbies would know that such things happen.  That's how allowing Bitcointalk accounts to be sold has been rationalized by you, and I found your reasoning convincing :)


Lolno.
My story needs some backstory, beams and rafters of the stage upon which our drama's to unfold. Having the whole thing come out of the narrator's moth is just about the most boring way of going about it.
"So BespokeServicesLTD decided to sell his Trust, because he knew Bitcointalk has already turned into a giant bag of dicks."
Nah.

Letting the hero do it ain't much better, sounds artificial as fuck.
"OMG, BespokeServicesLTD!!1!," I said to myself, "is this humungous bag of dicks really what's become of Bitcointalk?"
Lame.

So we make our hero appear ignorant, allowing the secondary characters [you] provide exposition, thinly disguising our amateurish dramaturgy as lively question/answer dialogue [see this thread].

@fagit: http://s11.postimg.org/9r5uof3qb/Capture.png

And yet you are still responding to this "fagit" that you have on ignore. 

Maybe you like the smell of bags of dicks and you know I'd teabag your slimy scammer ass just to watch you gag, so you just can't stop yourself.

Wanna lick my sack Turd-Boy?  I'll sell you a tea-bag session for a few BTC and even leave positive trust when you send over the coin. 

And that's what this is all about right?  You're the hero here to save the forum from that bag of dicks, and are determined to do so, even if you need to do it one dick at a time.  Now that's dedication. 


http://www.quickmeme.com/img/3b/3b22b594d2e65d0054bc96684a77164cc17feca84dd22efabd733f0724be0891.jpg

Again, you really don't seem to have any sort of grasp on how any of this works, which is why I highly doubt you have an account on default trust. Why don't you just start selling trust already and see how it plays out? I'm not going to take time explaining to you the flaws in your plan, because even if I do, you wont listen. Just do it already, prove with a demonstration your business model.

Either one of two obvious reasons:
1) They don't have any account on default trust. (talk to Quickseller, he might have some available!)
2) They know exactly how it will work out.

Why?  Because Fuck You, that's why.

Obtuse moron.

You Bespeak too much.

Just STFU with your caterwauling already.  Anyone with two brain cells to rub together saw this coming.  People warned you you'd pay for it, now just take what you've earned like a man, pussy-boy.

And BTW circumventing a ban is not likely to help your situation, so you just keep right on digging that hole you're in and I'll keep pissing down onto your head to keep you hydrated. 

What kind of joke is this? Buying people trust? What a shame just ruining this forum.

A retard's?*


He will be removed from default trust list if he abuses. If he is removed, his trust will have less to no value. There is nothing shame to run this forum, it is shame he is going to sell trust. I think he is just trolling.

* Verb not noun.

Keeping feeding the trolls guys. Meta section is gonna be huge for those enrolled in a sig campaign.

Exactly how I feel. The direct "buying of trust" is very corrupt and is NO way at ANY advantage to the community unless you want there to be more and larger scams. Trust should ONLY be given for successful trades or sales.

Wow! Your English skills are amazing! I hardly understand these type of English Blames! So complicated :D

Exactly.  The satire here is quite clever.  Personally, I really think that the meaning behind the OP's suggestion ought to be addressed.  How is it okay to purchase an account with positive trust but not okay to just directly purchase the trust?  What's the principled difference there?

I think the difference is when you are buying a forum account you buy all the forum account (so also the positive, negative and neutral trust // with all his history). The problem is the "practice", and it is obviously that is not so intelligent buy directly trust when you can buy a "green forum account".

I don't understand.  You seem to be emphsazing the point that there's no real difference in principle.  The question is this: why would it be okay to purchase a new account in order to subvert the trust system but it's not okay to simple purchase trust to subvert the trust system.  They are both ways to subvert the trust system but one is okay whereas the other isn't.

There isn't much to understand. Why is selling trusted accounts ok? Because people say so. Why is selling trust not ok? Because people say so. There aren't rules, the community as a whole dictates what is ok and what isn't ok to do. For example, leaving feedback for someone you haven't traded with. Why is that ok? People have rationalized that it is necessary to preempt scammers, so it is an accepted practice, not a rule.

If I had to take a stab at guessing why people care more strongly about trust selling, is because the initial trust they receive could be a lie. Lets say someone has an account that they have completed 10 successful trades and have 10 positive feedback that they are selling. The trust adds to the value of the account. That value then is carried along at the time of sale. So say an account is 1 BTC, and the trusted account is worth 1.5 BTC because of the trust, the sale price is going to be 1.5 BTC, meaning the scammer buying the account will need to scam more than the 1.5 BTC, otherwise they lost money. Generally an account is going to be worth more than its trust because of the time put into the account, and sig campaigns, etc. I believe that is why buying trusted accounts to scam isn't a commonplace thing. Its just not profitable, but I could be entirely wrong, that is just my theory.

Say you wanted to buy trust, not the account. Your account is worth 1 BTC. You pay 0.1 BTC for the trust, and the feedback says that you were trusted with 50 BTC. Your account might then be worth 2 BTC (That is if people don't just disregard that kind of feedback from non well known people) you can then try to scam for 2 BTC, and if you succeed you made .9 BTC, making the act of buying trust possibly feasible.

That said, I still don't think that either is a commonplace thing, because all it takes is one guy to say, hey that trade looks fishy, make a thread about it, and everyone involved is marked a scammer, and whoever trusted that person on default trust on the first place would have to deal with a lot.... and I mean a lot of hate.

That all said, there were a lot of rational details that people overlooked here, so their panties got into a wad for nothing. First the OP didn't have a default trust account, they had no understanding of how the trust system worked. If they did have a trusted account, it was most likely on trust depth 3/4 which would be relatively meaningless. We don't know how much the OP was charging for trust and we don't know if their trusted account had any weight at all. I actually hoped that they did have a trusted account, because the only way to see how it would have all played out. I have a few theories on why selling trust isn't profitable either, but we would have had to see it in action.

So in conclusion, what is ok and not ok is dictated by the community. I think that people are more outraged by trust selling because it is more likely to be profitable for a scammer than buying an account outright. The reason the trust system has been in place this long and this topic is just coming up sort of speaks for itself.

I asked him (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1040952.msg11226200#msg11226200) how much he was charging, however he refused to answer (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1040952.msg11226226#msg11226226), and is more evidence that he was trolling as opposed to actually selling trust.

They most likely did not have an account on default trust considering that he was banned (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1043347.msg11244067#msg11244067) for ban evading it would be likely that as of when he created the account that his other accounts were already banned, and as a result would be unable to leave positive trust (he was actually banned multiple times (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1043347.msg11248234#msg11248234) making it even less likely that is "main" account is both on default trust and not banned).
The reason is the same that it does not make sense to buy a trusted account and then scam. Default trust accounts have additional value because they are on default trust. It is unlikely that someone is going to be able to sell enough trust in order to make up the additional value their account has for being on default trust. It would be easy to detect when someone is selling trust, especially considering that someone could simply buy trust on an alt account and then whoever ends up leaving that person positive trust is the person selling trust and can be easily called out, and as a result would likely be removed from the default trust network. I was actually about to do this right before the OP was banned, but abandoned the idea once I saw that he was banned.

---

---

There have been some people in the past who have essentially been selling trust either via their escrow service or other services they offer (that are often overpriced). Many of them have been removed from default trust for a variety of reasons, while some others remain. Some people who are clearly trying to farm trust attempt to use these people's services.

The fact that trust is being defacto traded via various services makes the decision to leave positive trust for someone a much more complex question then it should be. If I had left positive trust for everyone that I provided escrow services to, on every occasion that I escrowed for them then a number of people who I personally find sketchy would show as having significant amounts of positive trust because of me which is not something I want.

Very good post, too bad it will fall on deaf ears (for the most part) by a few hard heads only wanting to stir up trouble.

Yeah, it should work that way, although I can think of some instances where it doesn't.  We have a hardware vendor on this forum that abuses the self moderation privileges to the point where they are running a bot to cover up the the truth about their ongoing scams by using this bot to censor users.

The community effected by this company has raised holy hell about it and gotten nowhere.  They continue to run this bot after scamming millions out of people on false promises and are now using this bot on a new self-moderated thread to try to sell a new product.

I like the fact that the forum doesn't restrict activity very much and in principle agree with this laissez faire approach, although I do wonder how things are resolved at times and whether it's a whim, a rule, or the opinion of the community that ultimately decides.

What you're doing is very unintelligibly announcing that you accept bribery, assuming you are being honest, which is not likely the case. The forum's rules need to apply equally and fairly to everyone - and trust should be earned. You've just eradicated any chances of ever making money selling trust - every 'sale' is a honeypot, with the buyer willing to report your account for bribery. You will be quickly removed from the Default Trust, and those who remain will give you so much negative rep that your account will become basically worthless. You don't want that, and that's why you're not going to do this. Troll.

I guess I'm not completely surprised that you can't seem to see that satire is a form of argumentation which is not equavalent to trolling.


I'm curious if you've ever actually left positive trust for anyone who you didn't see as more powerful than you in some way or another.  You've revealed yourself many times as the kind of person who steps on people who you see as below you while kissing the asses of people you see as above you.  Anywhoo....

@Salty, your post seems to boil down to an observation that the system is irrational and we have this system because people have tolerated it.  That's certainly true, but highlighting the irrationality of this (as OP does) is one step towards making a better system, IMO.

that's gay trust must be earned not bought by a newbie like myself

How is gay trust different than normal trust?

If I trust a person and someone else trusts the same person, is that gay trust?

Hard to know what sexuality has to do with it.  But if you'd read closer, you'd note that you're very welcome to buy a trusted account from a "reputable" account seller.  So, I ask you, what's the difference?

No its not like that.
Its like, If two guys trust each other, its called gay trust. If two gals trust each other, its lesbian trust. If cross trust each other, its straight trust.
As simple as that. Its all elementary ;D

"Gay originally used to refer to feelings of being "carefree", "happy", or "bright and showy"[...]"

Its not as serious. Trust sold by OP would most likely be gay, because its mainly carefree as nothing was actually risked. I doubt it would be marketed as such to avoid confusion with lesbian trust, which can only be given by accounts under control by the people of Lesbos. As such lesbian trust is rare and highly valued.

As someone on DefaultTrust you should know.

You guys are hillarious.  And you are right to ridicule the way Steamingoff uses "gay".  Nevertheless, I think going down the rabbit-hole of ridiculing Steamingoff for his blockheaded use of language distracts from the serious point this thread makes: ie, it's okay to purchase a trusted account, and it's okay for trusted members to farm/sell/buy accounts, but somehow it's not okay to purchase trust directly.  I really have a hard time seeing how the latter is any more problematic for the trust system than the former. 

(Note: I've never bought/sold/farmed accounts or trust, but I have been abused by an account seller who is on default trust (for now).  As far as I can tell, this was in part motivated by said account-seller's market interests in driving up the purchase price for farmed accounts.  However, I won't be purchasing any accounts to try to undo the wrong which was done to me (this would be submitting to blackmail).  But this experience has highlighted for me how much shady-dealings there are around here in terms of the trust system and account purchases/sales.  That's one of the reasons why the satire in this thread resonates so strongly with me.)

I think "buying trust" in general is problematic. Yet, account trades are not essentially linked to buying trust. E.g. from someone on Default Trust I would expect that they request to be removed before selling the account. On the other hand it would certainly increase the price and thus there is no incentive to do so.

You also cant just reset the trust rating in case of a sale, because #1 a sale is not necessarily public in every case #2 you would have to limit this on positive ratings to avoid a misuse by scammers. This essentially leads to "ban all account sales", which is heavily discussed currently and IMHO missing the point. If we would ban everything that could potentially lead to a scam, the board would be useless. Registering an account could e.g. lead to a scam, just to name one extreme "solution" that is none.

I don't see why a non-self-moderated thread can't be created so that the discussion can take place there. Do a search for 'uncensored thread site:bitcointalk.org' on Google and you'll see many examples of this happening when people got fed up with having their posts deleted from the official self-moderated thread and decided to start their own.


If someone sold an account which another person had left positive trust on, that sale is beyond the control of the person who gave the trust so it doesn't impact the value of that person's trust ratings. If it is accepted that accounts can be bought or sold, then whether or not an account happens to have existing trust is secondary. Any justification for restrictions that try to prevent the sale of trusted accounts can also be carried over to the argument that all account trading should be banned.

I'm pretty sure that "official" threads are not really a thing.  There are self-moderated thread and there are non-self-moderated threads.  I don't think one type is any more official than another however non-self-moderated threads are certainly less suspicious (to me, and I think to others) if you want to actually see debate take place.  In this sense, I agree with you that while self-moderation can be abused, there's a natural solution (one I've used myself), ie, start your own thread.


Indeed, and this is basically what Shorena argues above.  That because we can buy-and-sell accounts then of course we can buy-and-sell trusted accounts.  But I hope it's become quite clear that this makes the trust system effectively a system in which we can buy and sell trust.  I think that's what the OP was driving at, and I think it's a well-reasoned point.  I'm not sure how/why buying and selling trust isn't just as "okay" as buying and selling accounts.  As far as I can tell, it's effectively the same thing.

@Shorena in re whether or not default trust accounts are bought and sold.  You may be right that it doesn't happen often, but how would we really know?  I don't understand what you mean about "there'd be no incentive", it seems to me that if you have a default trust account and you have a buyer willing to pay a lot for it, the incentive is there, whether or not the two people reach a deal is some sort of empirical matter.

Just to make this clear. It does - at least to me - but I dont have a solution.


As it was argued by SaltySpitoon, the difference is that one (selling account) is commonly accepted by the community while the other is not (selling trust directly).


Yes, exactly. Lets just assume that I want to cash out big time here. I would probably start with spamming up to the max number of posts I can get payment for, Bit-X is currently not limiting the number of post I think. I might even be possible to convince marco to offer me a special deal and get paid in advance. I do write constructive posts, that is somewhat established. The next step would be to take a loan without collateral and just offer my credibility, which would probably not be worth much, but a least a bit. Finally selling the account at the same time or shortly afterwards secretly on another board (hackerboard maybe?). The sale would ofc include the private keys to addresses I posted in the past to make sure the new owner can perfectly argue (with signed message) that they are still the same person and that the loan was done by a hacker. Considering that the loaned amount would not be much, they would probably curse a bit and just repay it to stay on DefaultTrust. I should probably add my PGP key to convince Quickseller and others as well as every message I every received encrypted by them. A complete all around shorena sell out, mail, (empty) wallet, PGP key, german lessons, everything included.

I have next to no incentive to tell BadBear that I am about to sell the account and it should be removed from DefaultTrust. In fact I have an incentive to do the opposite. I find this very troubling, same as our trolling friend. I do not think that banning the sale of accounts in general is a valid option though. In the above scenario it would not make a difference whether selling the account would be allowed or not.

To make this perfectly clear: I have no plans to do what I described above. Its just a thought experiment.

Edit: I think my main point is that DefaultTrust or a green rating does not equal trustworthy.

Yes, and this is more of an observation about the state of affairs with respect to the community more than an actual difference in principle between the two topics.  As I had replied above, this is just as likely to change-as not-depending on how widely the facts of the OPs satire here get noticed.
I agree with you here.  The incentive is there.  And what's more, you wouldn't even have to be going "all in" in this way.  It'd be easy enough to do a soft version of this where you don't burn all the bridges or take out loans or any other sort of disreputable action before you go.  You'd just make bank off selling your default trust.

Just to let you know, most of the time a condition of a sale is going to include a provision that the account does not have any outstanding loans or obligations. Any halfway decent escrow will check for this even if this isn't the case. If you were to try to sell your account with an outstanding loan would probably lead you to get negative trust and the sale would probably fall through.

You are right that you do have an incentive to not get any positive trust removed and an incentive to try to remain on default trust if you were to sell your account. The reason for this is that both will add value to your account. I would say with a good amount of certainty that a scammer could probably not scam for more then the value of your account. Yes you have the possibility to do a number of small scams in private however there is the risk that one person will be suspicious of you and will call scam then others who you are in the process of trying to scam will corroborate your scam attempts and the value of your account will plummet.

Sure there are instances where people will sell their accounts plus their private keys however trying to scam with a trusted account is a gamble at best and a gamble with small potential rewards and high risk and a generally small success rate. I would call the EV of buying a trusted and/or a default trust account to be negative by a long stretch.  

It's impossible to calculate without real, actual, values.  The value of the default trust account to someone who's going to be walking away from the forums forever (for any imaginable reason) independently of whether they find a buyer is whatever they can get for it.  Ie, if you know you'll never use it again, then you've got every incentive to sell for whatever you find someone willing to offer.

It's impossible to say what the value of something is/isn't without knowing actual details of a given situation.  Anyone who says otherwise is engaging in mere speculation---this can be fun, but it's not solid argumentation.

I know what people are generally willing to pay for default trust accounts, how much default trust accounts have sold for in the past, I know how much people are generally able to hold for a third party before suspicions start getting tripped.

It is pretty rare that someone attempts to use a purchased account to scam many people for as much as possible however in almost every case that I have seen the amount scammed was significantly less then the value of the account and in cases when the amount scammed was greater then the value of the account, it was because one person who doesn't know how to take proper precautions got scammed for a large amount.

Your argumentation basically boils down to Argument from authority (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority), which is a logical fallacy.

The starting point is the assumption that you know the value of the account to the seller, this is obviously highly dependent on the person and their circumstance.

[inb4 ad hominem attacks: next, QS either calls me an idiot or doesn't reply at all...]

That is why I wanted the OP to start selling trust to see how it would play out. I want those real, actual values. But I'd agree, buying accounts is negative EV for the purpose of scamming, trust perhaps not though. Thats why I think selling accounts is more "acceptable" than selling trust. While you are correct it is more or less speculation until people start trying to sell trust, you can make certain assumptions. I've asked people to name a single proven instance where someone has purchased an account or trust to scam with. The fact that in Bitcointalk's history, no one can point out let alone one instance, there must be a reason why its not done.

I'd be happy to post my list of calculative analysis on the matter, but people don't seem to like my 4 page walls of text. ;D

the value of an account to the seller does not matter. It could be worth 1 btc for example but the owner only values it at .75 btc, they obviously won't sell it for the lower amount, conversely if someone wrote to value their account for 1 btc but the market would only support a value of .5 btc then the account would either not sell or would sell for less then what the owner values it at.

My point is that the value of an account of ultimately determined by the market. People can give a value to their account if they want however any rational decision will be based off of market prices.

@salty- I'd be interested in seeing your calculations and no I don't mind reading your walls of text.

You say it does not matter but then you go on to show exactly how it does matter.  Both buyer and seller have to agree if there is a sale to be made.  If I value my account at X, then I won't sell lower than X.  That is exactly what you go on to say.  So, again, it's impossible to see how much a person would sell a (default trust) account for until someone actually puts a price on their (default trust) account.  You can't really say what the "value" of an account is independently of actual data.  This fact impunes your reasoning when you say "the value of a default trust account is always negative"---this clearly depends on the price, which you don't know until someone makes an offer.This matter is independent of theories of (ir)rationality.  You don't know the "market prices" until a sale goes down.

BTW, good job holding back on the insults!  You're making progress, it seems.

Who says that no default trust accounts have never been sold?

I can tell you for sure that this (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=811345.0) account was on default trust when it was sold; I got it removed once it tried to participate in a scam. I can also say with a good amount of certainty that it was purchased for roughly 2.5 btc and probably was able to scam for roughly zero.

While its certainly true that you cant create a working asking price based on your personal feeling of a price. If my selling point is not met however I am not selling at all and thus increase the price of other accounts on the market because I lower the available supply while the demand stays the same.


2nd


No reason to start the bickering from your side now.


Apparently I did not think this through in my thought experiment. Maybe because I would consider the sale in that manner a scam already. I dont see it as enabling someone to scam, but a scam in itself. It would be deceiving towards those that put trust into me as the holder of the account. A sale without proper precautions would be to misuse the trust.

I find it fascinating thought that buying an account for the purpose of scamming does not seem to ROI.

There's no actual evidence here whether it does or doesn't.  This is the usual QS masterbation story, he's linking us to a thread in which he follows up on a Stunna accusation and takes credit for it in order to inflate his ego.  It's anecdotal at best, and given that all QS anecdotes are about how great he is in his own eyes, it's certainaly a questionable anecdote w.r.t. facts.

Be that as it may, but is there any evidence that its the other way around? The scam ponzi investor based games section is filled by newbie accounts. Among ranks, the newbies will most likely have the highest percentage of negative ratings. The loan section alone produces them daily.

It certainly makes sense that buying an account for a scam does not ROI. Considering how accounts are valued as collateral items in the loaning section, the amount you could get with an account is typically in the "I could just sell it quickly and still make a little profit" area. I just wonder how this pans out so nicely. How to people know how much is an account worth, its not like there is an official price list.

Yes there is. I know exactly how much the person was willing to pay for the default trust account, I know with a reasonable amount of certainty how much they were able to scam players/investors and I know with a reasonable about of certainty how much the accounts are worth now that the scam was uncovered.

I am fairly certain that there are few default trust accounts that are sold (or whose owners are considering selling their accounts) - (this is especially true now that CITM has been removed from level 1 default trust), however I can probably point to a pretty good number of default trust account sales as well as am aware of a good number of default trust accounts that may potentially be for sale, however it will be kept a secret because well a) it is none of anyone's business and b) people have incentives not to try to scam with these accounts because the potential for profit is low, the chances of success is low and the potential for loss is high, which makes an overall very bad risk profile.

As of the time that I pointed out that the account in question was purchased with the intent of scamming, no one was the wiser as to the above fact. I know that you cannot point to any post implying that the account in question was a scammer account that was made prior to me opening my scam accusation

Lol.  "I know", "I know", "I am fairly certain", "I am so certain", etc, etc.  I guess one day you'll pull your head out of your own ass far enough to realize that:

1) Claims of knowing something are not evidence
2) Masterbation posts like that don't actually make you look good or knowledgeable.