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Title: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: MicroGuy on May 30, 2015, 04:51:14 AM "Today on the Sourceforge hosted Bitcoin-development mailing list Gavin Andresen has threatened to leave his present group of Bitcoin software developers over their objections to his demands for a rapid hardfork of the Bitcoin network. In the event his demands are not met Gavin plans to join Mike Hearn's Bitcoin-XT project which is a fork of the Bitcoin client where Hearn implements patches that Gavin's current affiliated developers find too risky to implement in any mainline Bitcoin client. If Gavin defects to Bitcoin-XT he plans to work with Hearn to lobby merchants, miners, and businesses to move to Bitcoin-XT. Previously Mike Hearn was responsible for the March 2013 Bitcoin network crisis."
Original post: http://qntra.net/2015/05/gavin-threatens-to-quit-bitcoin-development-and-join-hearns-fork/ Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Vod on May 30, 2015, 04:57:37 AM "Today on the Sourceforge hosted Bitcoin-development mailing list Gavin Andresen has threatened to leave his present group of Bitcoin software developers over their objections to his demands for a rapid hardfork of the Bitcoin network. In the event his demands are not met Gavin plans to join Mike Hearn's Bitcoin-XT project which is a fork of the Bitcoin client where Hearn implements patches that Gavin's current affiliated developers find too risky to implement in any mainline Bitcoin client. If Gavin defects to Bitcoin-XT he plans to work with Hearn to lobby merchants, miners, and businesses to move to Bitcoin-XT. Previously Mike Hearn was responsible for the March 2013 Bitcoin network crisis." Original post: http://qntra.net/2015/05/gavin-threatens-to-quit-bitcoin-development-and-join-hearns-fork/ Such a move will only weaken Bitcoin's credibility in the eyes of the public. :-\ Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: TinEye on May 30, 2015, 05:02:37 AM "Today on the Sourceforge hosted Bitcoin-development mailing list Gavin Andresen has threatened to leave his present group of Bitcoin software developers over their objections to his demands for a rapid hardfork of the Bitcoin network. In the event his demands are not met Gavin plans to join Mike Hearn's Bitcoin-XT project which is a fork of the Bitcoin client where Hearn implements patches that Gavin's current affiliated developers find too risky to implement in any mainline Bitcoin client. If Gavin defects to Bitcoin-XT he plans to work with Hearn to lobby merchants, miners, and businesses to move to Bitcoin-XT. Previously Mike Hearn was responsible for the March 2013 Bitcoin network crisis." Original post: http://qntra.net/2015/05/gavin-threatens-to-quit-bitcoin-development-and-join-hearns-fork/ Such a move will only weaken Bitcoin's credibility in the eyes of the public. :-\ You can bet that if this happens some altcoins will be able to suitable spin it for their benefit. Even a 1% movement of money away from Bitcoin to a particular altcoin will make their marketcap shoot up. So be prepared to get a lot of negative marketing from within the community itself, not just general public. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: jeannemadrigal2 on May 30, 2015, 05:36:13 AM This could be catastrophic for bitcoin. If he leaves then in my opinion neither would be successful. I suppose a major alt like litecoin could take over but I think even alts would be damaged by this. Lets hope they can find a solution.
Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: EndTheFed321 on May 30, 2015, 05:47:42 AM catastrophic Indeed, it will open the doors for the scam OneCoin to flood the market :o
Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: BusyBeaverHP on May 30, 2015, 05:59:30 AM Nice try Mircea, try putting this spin on the front page of /r/Bitcoin then we'll talk.
Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: AGD on May 30, 2015, 06:20:18 AM We should have known before:
http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/565/442/285.jpg Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: TPTB_need_war on May 30, 2015, 06:28:16 AM So be prepared to get a lot of negative marketing from within the community itself, not just general public. And we have MP's promised nuke on Gavincoin (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=68655.msg11486562#msg11486562). My long-standing prediction for a bottom < $100 is coming to fruition. ;) The dip will likely drag the altcoins down too. They will be shooting themselves in the foot, but perhaps with exceptions. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: NorrisK on May 30, 2015, 06:37:20 AM It is a bad thing that one person currently has so much influence on the bitcoin perception
him leaving should not cause more than a small dip on the news, otherwise it has become to centralized around him. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: franky1 on May 30, 2015, 06:44:32 AM it doesnt matter what fork gavin wants to manage.. all that counts is what fork mining pools work on..
if all the pools stick with the current github version. then the hearn fork will just be a its own little crappy fork that will end up being an altcoin. the issue will then be that no one will want to trade real bitcoins for altbitcoins(hearns fork) as they wont be worth as much. the only thing that i am concerned with is if gavin brutalizes the github by revoking membership and preventing coders from continuing on with the current bitcoin code, forcing people to use hearns fork Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: shulio on May 30, 2015, 07:03:47 AM it doesnt matter what fork gavin wants to manage.. all that counts is what fork mining pools work on.. if all the pools stick with the current github version. then the hearn fork will just be a its own little crappy fork that will end up being an altcoin. the issue will then be that no one will want to trade real bitcoins for altbitcoins(hearns fork) as they wont be worth as much. the only thing that i am concerned with is if gavin brutalizes the github by revoking membership and preventing coders from continuing on with the current bitcoin code, forcing people to use hearns fork I dont think he will be forcing people.this could be a move from him so that people realize that he is importat for bitcoin community and then people will accept his fork proposal. Hearn fork is just another stupid altcoin fork, it serve bitcoin not better than any altcoin, much more like a copy of altcoin Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: LiteCoinGuy on May 30, 2015, 07:43:36 AM it doesnt matter what fork gavin wants to manage.. all that counts is what fork mining pools work on.. if all the pools stick with the current github version. then the hearn fork will just be a its own little crappy fork that will end up being an altcoin. the issue will then be that no one will want to trade real bitcoins for altbitcoins(hearns fork) as they wont be worth as much. the only thing that i am concerned with is if gavin brutalizes the github by revoking membership and preventing coders from continuing on with the current bitcoin code, forcing people to use hearns fork I dont think he will be forcing people.this could be a move from him so that people realize that he is importat for bitcoin community and then people will accept his fork proposal. Hearn fork is just another stupid altcoin fork, it serve bitcoin not better than any altcoin, much more like a copy of altcoin why dont we stay with bitcoin core and just raise the fucking blocksize limit? >:( like he wrote: "big increase now that grows over time so we may never have to go through all this rancor and debate again." or isnt that possible with bitcoin core? Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: franky1 on May 30, 2015, 08:05:32 AM it doesnt matter what fork gavin wants to manage.. all that counts is what fork mining pools work on.. if all the pools stick with the current github version. then the hearn fork will just be a its own little crappy fork that will end up being an altcoin. the issue will then be that no one will want to trade real bitcoins for altbitcoins(hearns fork) as they wont be worth as much. the only thing that i am concerned with is if gavin brutalizes the github by revoking membership and preventing coders from continuing on with the current bitcoin code, forcing people to use hearns fork I dont think he will be forcing people.this could be a move from him so that people realize that he is importat for bitcoin community and then people will accept his fork proposal. Hearn fork is just another stupid altcoin fork, it serve bitcoin not better than any altcoin, much more like a copy of altcoin i think its worth people looking at what other hidden lines of code hearn wants to impliment. as i dont think the hearn vs github is just about 20mb.. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: pitham1 on May 30, 2015, 08:12:34 AM It is a bad thing that one person currently has so much influence on the bitcoin perception him leaving should not cause more than a small dip on the news, otherwise it has become to centralized around him. The question is why is he leaving? Opinions are divided on the blocksize limit. So it is not just one person who is branching out. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Kyraishi on May 30, 2015, 08:16:37 AM After this, I don't think the community should support Gavin on anything.
Nobody has the right to threaten Bitcoin or it's community and that includes Gavin. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: dothebeats on May 30, 2015, 08:30:55 AM I don't see any problem when others create their own fork of bitcoin, but given that the well-known developer of bitcoin is threatening to leave the github version to support another fork is alarming. Though we know that even if Gavin supported this fork and the network stays on mining the current fork, still there will be doubts among the general public seeing that one of the prominent figures in bitcoin leaves for another project. This would only drag bitcoin not only in price but also in adoption as well.
-snip- the only thing that i am concerned with is if gavin brutalizes the github by revoking membership and preventing coders from continuing on with the current bitcoin code, forcing people to use hearns fork This will cause a massive outrage from the community and the network that may result to a great loss. If ever Gavin did this thing, I think no one will ever trust bitcoin and its concept anymore. If he wants something to change in the code, he should consult the community and other developers as well, because first and foremost, he doesn't own anything in bitcoin's code; he's just another developer too of this great code, but only more widely-known by the community and the world, but still the fact remains that he's a developer and not the owner of bitcoin. EDIT: Fixed some grammatical errors and spelling. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Fedoraeuphoria on May 30, 2015, 08:48:08 AM This is rather interesting. This news almost makes it seem that the confidence of the bitcoin currency is tied to a software developer when this digital currency is touted to be independent of any central authority.
Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: connectthebots on May 30, 2015, 08:49:44 AM Wow, so a developer has so much centralized influence that that him moving away is gonna decide an outcome?
Looks like Bitcoin's semi-decentralization is over. Onto the full centralization road people. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: BTCat on May 30, 2015, 08:51:24 AM Bitcoin is King and no other altcoin will get that huge amount of adoptionrate within the next 20 years.
Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Lauda on May 30, 2015, 08:52:39 AM Wow, so a developer has so much centralized influence that that him moving away is gonna decide an outcome? This is only minor centralization. Someone has to actually code things, it can't magically work and repair itself. The project is open source; anyone can contribute hence the decentralization.Bitcoin can't get more centralized than this. It's obvious that many will understand this news the wrong way. Gavin is one of the main faces behind Bitcoin, and some highly respect him. He has influence. This move is what could start tearing Bitcoin apart from within. If the network splits even to 50-50, we can start looking towards the end of the line. Such a move will only weaken Bitcoin's credibility in the eyes of the public. :-\ Exactly. No good will come from this. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Elwar on May 30, 2015, 08:54:43 AM And nobody actually read his post.
This is the biggest amount of FUD I have seen in a long time. Quote What do other people think? If we can't come to an agreement soon, then I'll ask for help reviewing/submitting patches to Mike's Bitcoin-Xt project that implement a big increase now that grows over time so we may never have to go through all this rancor and debate again. I'll then ask for help lobbying the merchant services and exchanges and hosted wallet companies and other bitcoind-using-infrastructure companies (and anybody who agrees with me that we need bigger blocks sooner rather than later) to run Bitcoin-Xt instead of Bitcoin Core, and state that they are running it. We'll be able to see uptake on the network by monitoring client versions. Perhaps by the time that happens there will be consensus bigger blocks are needed sooner rather than later; if so, great! The early deployment will just serve as early testing, and all of the software already deployed will ready for bigger blocks. But if there is still no consensus among developers but the "bigger blocks now" movement is successful, I'll ask for help getting big miners to do the same, and use the soft-fork block version voting mechanism to (hopefully) get a majority and then a super-majority willing to produce bigger blocks. The purpose of that process is to prove to any doubters that they'd better start supporting bigger blocks or they'll be left behind, and to give them a chance to upgrade before that happens. Because if we can't come to consensus here, the ultimate authority for determining consensus is what code the majority of merchants and exchanges and miners are running. -- -- Gavin Andresen Please point to the place where "Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork" Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: acharias on May 30, 2015, 08:58:56 AM Bitcoin is King and no other altcoin will get that huge amount of adoptionrate within the next 20 years. The first CRYPTOCOIN with Biggest comunity and market And nobody actually read his post. This is the biggest amount of FUD I have seen in a long time. Quote What do other people think? If we can't come to an agreement soon, then I'll ask for help reviewing/submitting patches to Mike's Bitcoin-Xt project that implement a big increase now that grows over time so we may never have to go through all this rancor and debate again. I'll then ask for help lobbying the merchant services and exchanges and hosted wallet companies and other bitcoind-using-infrastructure companies (and anybody who agrees with me that we need bigger blocks sooner rather than later) to run Bitcoin-Xt instead of Bitcoin Core, and state that they are running it. We'll be able to see uptake on the network by monitoring client versions. Perhaps by the time that happens there will be consensus bigger blocks are needed sooner rather than later; if so, great! The early deployment will just serve as early testing, and all of the software already deployed will ready for bigger blocks. But if there is still no consensus among developers but the "bigger blocks now" movement is successful, I'll ask for help getting big miners to do the same, and use the soft-fork block version voting mechanism to (hopefully) get a majority and then a super-majority willing to produce bigger blocks. The purpose of that process is to prove to any doubters that they'd better start supporting bigger blocks or they'll be left behind, and to give them a chance to upgrade before that happens. Because if we can't come to consensus here, the ultimate authority for determining consensus is what code the majority of merchants and exchanges and miners are running. -- -- Gavin Andresen Please point to the place where "Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork" we must appreciate with her do Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Lauda on May 30, 2015, 09:00:01 AM And nobody actually read his post. The media exaggerated things as usually. However he did state that he will try to influence everyone to come on board of Mike's Bitcoin-Xt project.This is the biggest amount of FUD I have seen in a long time. Please point to the place where "Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork" That's pretty much the same as leaving Bitcoin Core development. However Gavin also forgot to consider all possible outcomes; one being that the majority does not agree on bigger blocks (although I don't see this outcome being that likely). Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: BTCat on May 30, 2015, 09:00:39 AM And nobody actually read his post. This is the biggest amount of FUD I have seen in a long time. Please point to the place where "Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork" I wanted to add that too, the title is pure fud. Gavin is just describing what actions he is gonna take on development. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Fabrizio89 on May 30, 2015, 09:12:56 AM This shit is really hitting the fan and falling into pieces everywhere
Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Lethn on May 30, 2015, 09:19:12 AM As always this is what scientific experiment is for and what was always intended for competing currencies. I don't see why we necessarily have to do it with Bitcoin as it is incredibly stable right now, an altcoin would actually be the perfect sort of experiment for this kind of thing. I still think that months ago we should have tried deliberately executing a 51% attack on the Bitcoin network when CEX.IO made their announcement but now we'll never know whether or not a 51% attack is even possible.
Research, Experiment, Test, absolutely all options, even just as we are we already have achieved more than central banks and politicians together have tried for a century, we can do even more now if we just set up currencies to test these new ideas on, unlike them we are actually trying to find solutions to the problems in our current currencies. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: redsn0w on May 30, 2015, 09:20:23 AM Well done Gavin, this is why bitcoin is the best thing that I have never seen in the last 20 years in the 'internet world'... basically the decentralization as liberty to do whatever you want.
A sort of anarchy... and the Media do their work very well. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: dothebeats on May 30, 2015, 09:29:24 AM and the Media do their work very well. By exaggerating news and spreading false information to gain some revenue and for their "news" to appeal more interesting. Gavin can do whatever he wants to do, however, any bad move will also affect bitcoin because we know that Gavin Andresen serves as the "face of bitcoin". The media exaggerates this bad news and as a result, affects bitcoin in a way how it affects Gavin. I agree to Gavin's point that there should be some changes in the code, but not to the point that if ever his demands aren't met and he'll choose another fork that is not yet thoroughly reviewed, I'll call it quits. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: SpanishSoldier on May 30, 2015, 09:33:36 AM And nobody actually read his post. This is the biggest amount of FUD I have seen in a long time. -snip- Please point to the place where "Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork" In an endless effort to promote a ShitCoin named GoldCoin, OP is doing all these. Check his post history. I blocked his 2 previous FUD right after his post. But, this time I missed it. :-\ Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: redsn0w on May 30, 2015, 09:42:51 AM and the Media do their work very well. By exaggerating news and spreading false information to gain some revenue and for their "news" to appeal more interesting. Gavin can do whatever he wants to do, however, any bad move will also affect bitcoin because we know that Gavin Andresen serves as the "face of bitcoin". The media exaggerates this bad news and as a result, affects bitcoin in a way how it affects Gavin. I agree to Gavin's point that there should be some changes in the code, but not to the point that if ever his demands aren't met and he'll choose another fork that is not yet thoroughly reviewed, I'll call it quits. It is obvious that it's his personal choice, but I do not think the price will be affected if he will go 'away'.... This is the problem to have a 'face of bitcoin' we will come back to a centralization if we will be scared by this type of decision. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Realpra on May 30, 2015, 12:18:52 PM And nobody actually read his post. Yes indeed what he says is entirely in line with what he has said before. That we should do a SOFT fork to see how ready the network is.This is the biggest amount of FUD I have seen in a long time. Quote ..... Gavin Andresen Please point to the place where "Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork" He is not even proposing a hard fork yet, only running a soft test on alternate software implementation of Core (still vanilla Bitcoin) if he can't convince core devs. Even if he becomes frustrated enough to use Xt instead of Core, what he is saying is that there still will be NO hard fork until there is a super majority. I don't think anyone serious in Bitcoin space would switch until there was a super majority. Bitcoin-Xt readme/project description + code here: https://github.com/bitcoinxt/bitcoinxt Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: johnyj on May 30, 2015, 12:49:38 PM This has been a problem since the beginning, there is no decision making mechanism in the core developer team
During 2013 fork, core devs could convince the merchant (bitpay) and big mining pools (btcguild) and control the hashing power and majority of merchant thus decide on which chain they would like to grow That was still in a time that a consensus could be reached quickly. But if a crisis hit and consensus can not be reached, there is no mechanism going forward except for forking into different directions Thanks god Satoshi has said that block size can be increased use a phase-in method, so I don't think increasing the block size is a big conflict of interest right now, but a sudden increase to 20 MB is quite aggressive, even a 4x increase will have huge impact to many aspects of the network From my point of view, huge amount of TPS is not necessary, since bitcoin anyway will not be used as a currency at mass scale: If it grows upon certain degree, it will start to affect the fiat money system, and today no sovereign government will allow foreign currency to circulate on domestic market at large scale, since that will make central bank's policy less effective. When you use bitcoin to save for the retirement, one transaction per month is quite enough Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Sitarow on May 30, 2015, 01:11:31 PM It is a bad thing that one person currently has so much influence on the bitcoin perception him leaving should not cause more than a small dip on the news, otherwise it has become to centralized around him. It is not one person and if you think that then you are either highly selective of the facts or poorly informed. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: unamis76 on May 30, 2015, 01:37:09 PM I think this is a good move. People had their heads underneath the sand for too much time and some are now realising that the limit needs to be raised, as we are very quickly approaching the limit for our blocks.
This move puts miners and users on the "voting seats"... We will now choose what we want: big or small blocks. Let's see who wins ;) Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: DooMAD on May 30, 2015, 01:46:26 PM I can't take any "news" at face value if Mircea Popescu or any of his obsequious cronies are even remotely connected to it. If it isn't from a reputable source, don't believe the FUD. This piece is clearly biased and inaccurate, so let's not start overreacting.
A larger blocksize is still necessary for the network to grow and support more users. If the other devs keep dragging their heels, we're going to run into difficulty at some point in the not-too-distant future. It's simple economics. The transaction fees currently generated by the network wouldn't be sufficient to give miners a decent income once the block rewards start to diminish. So either, the transaction fees would need to go up to compensate, or we would need more users paying fees to make up the difference. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CEl6tA4WMAAx25o.png:large Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: MicroGuy on May 30, 2015, 02:02:24 PM In an endless effort to promote a ShitCoin named GoldCoin, OP is doing all these. Check his post history. I blocked his 2 previous FUD right after his post. But, this time I missed it. :-\ Sticking one's head in the sand and name calling won't resolve this problem. Pointing out the weaknesses of a model can help make it stronger. The way I see this issue is there's "an illusion" (a lie basically) that Bitcoin is decentralized. In all seriousness, I think the best course of action would be to quit pretending and accept the fact that Gavin has complete control. Then we can stop the endless debate and allow Gavin to concentrate on making the changes to the code which are going to happen anyway. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: qwk on May 30, 2015, 02:15:10 PM "Today on the Sourceforge hosted Bitcoin-development mailing list Gavin Andresen has threatened to leave his present group of Bitcoin software developers over their objections to his demands for a rapid hardfork of the Bitcoin network.[...]" Total spin. Gavin proposed a "let-the-market-decide" solution to the question of whether to fork or not.Original post: http://qntra.net/2015/05/gavin-threatens-to-quit-bitcoin-development-and-join-hearns-fork/ Such a move will only weaken Bitcoin's credibility in the eyes of the public. :-\ I doubt that. The public (whoever that is) probably wouldn't even notice.Big Business might actually be attracted by the pragmatic solutions the Bitcoin community can come up with when it comes to real-life problems like scalability. After all, they couldn't care less about the whole crypto-anarchist decentralized idealism. They just want that "blockchain technology stuff" to work. So be prepared to get a lot of negative marketing from within the community itself, not just general public. Possibly, but the community has already lost its power when it comes to whether Bitcoin will be a success or not.VC is flowing, Big Business moving in. it doesnt matter what fork gavin wants to manage.. all that counts is what fork mining pools work on.. Pools will want to make money. They're going to stick to whatever suits that goal best.This is only minor centralization. Someone has to actually code things, it can't magically work and repair itself. The project is open source; anyone can contribute hence the decentralization. Absolutely. Someone's got to take the less popular decisive steps at times. And I'd rather have that someone be Gavin than someone else.After all, that whole idea of Gavin is still well within the limits of the traditional Bitcoin spirit, churn out some changes, let the network decide. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: IIOII on May 30, 2015, 02:32:53 PM Gavin's actions come as no surprise to me, because he's the founding father of The Bitcoin Foundation. He obviously likes to grab for power instead of reaching consensus on a sound solution.
There have been far better proposals to implement a sliding block size increase based on demand. Proposals which are much more likely to reach consensus among developers than a 20 MB step function, because they are more sound. Meanwhile, hitchhiking on Gavin/Hearn-BitcoinXT (marketed to public mainly as a "solution" for max_blocksize) come other changes which where previously rejected by other developers, because they weaken security. I will not support this power grab. I will not support the GavinHearnCoin-fork. And nobody actually read his post. This is the biggest amount of FUD I have seen in a long time. Quote ... Please point to the place where "Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork" You quoted it. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Nexun on May 30, 2015, 02:37:53 PM I thought getting into Bitcoin at this price would be a good idea time to sell my coins again :'(
Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: pissedoff on May 30, 2015, 02:45:01 PM I'm interested in what gmaxwell and the other developers think about these words.
Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: biggus dickus on May 30, 2015, 03:18:02 PM .... Meanwhile, hitchhiking on Gavin/Hearn-BitcoinXT (marketed to public mainly as a "solution" for max_blocksize) come other changes which where previously rejected by other developers, because they weaken security. ... What are the other changes besides bigger blocks in BitcoinXT that could weaken security? Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: tss on May 30, 2015, 03:25:44 PM i think its a great idea. run it on bitcoin xt
if bitcoin core never implements it then majority can move to xt nodes if they so choose. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: LiteCoinGuy on May 30, 2015, 03:26:57 PM And nobody actually read his post. This is the biggest amount of FUD I have seen in a long time. Quote What do other people think? If we can't come to an agreement soon, then I'll ask for help reviewing/submitting patches to Mike's Bitcoin-Xt project that implement a big increase now that grows over time so we may never have to go through all this rancor and debate again. I'll then ask for help lobbying the merchant services and exchanges and hosted wallet companies and other bitcoind-using-infrastructure companies (and anybody who agrees with me that we need bigger blocks sooner rather than later) to run Bitcoin-Xt instead of Bitcoin Core, and state that they are running it. We'll be able to see uptake on the network by monitoring client versions. Perhaps by the time that happens there will be consensus bigger blocks are needed sooner rather than later; if so, great! The early deployment will just serve as early testing, and all of the software already deployed will ready for bigger blocks. But if there is still no consensus among developers but the "bigger blocks now" movement is successful, I'll ask for help getting big miners to do the same, and use the soft-fork block version voting mechanism to (hopefully) get a majority and then a super-majority willing to produce bigger blocks. The purpose of that process is to prove to any doubters that they'd better start supporting bigger blocks or they'll be left behind, and to give them a chance to upgrade before that happens. Because if we can't come to consensus here, the ultimate authority for determining consensus is what code the majority of merchants and exchanges and miners are running. -- -- Gavin Andresen Please point to the place where "Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork" thank god the right people (gavin and co) are doing the right things. the morons can spread their FUD - i dont care. go gavin. ;D Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Sitarow on May 30, 2015, 03:30:02 PM i think its a great idea. run it on bitcoin xt if bitcoin core never implements it then majority can move to xt nodes if they so choose. Something like this would happen so fast that it would render the other network unusable. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: LiteCoinGuy on May 30, 2015, 03:30:15 PM And nobody actually read his post. This is the biggest amount of FUD I have seen in a long time. -snip- Please point to the place where "Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork" In an endless effort to promote a ShitCoin named GoldCoin, OP is doing all these. Check his post history. I blocked his 2 previous FUD right after his post. But, this time I missed it. :-\ unfortunately the noobs may believe this shit ::) Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: tss on May 30, 2015, 03:41:23 PM From my point of view, huge amount of TPS is not necessary, since bitcoin anyway will not be used as a currency at mass scale: If it grows upon certain degree, it will start to affect the fiat money system, and today no sovereign government will allow foreign currency to circulate on domestic market at large scale, since that will make central bank's policy less effective. When you use bitcoin to save for the retirement, one transaction per month is quite enough yes. also lets not devalue bitcoin by stuffing the blockchain full of trash. i think its a great idea. run it on bitcoin xt if bitcoin core never implements it then majority can move to xt nodes if they so choose. Something like this would happen so fast that it would render the other network unusable. how so? who is using hearn's fork right now? Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: xDan on May 30, 2015, 03:43:56 PM congrats on linking to a totally unbiased resource OP /sarcasm
Other devs don't seem to get it. It's not their decision. It's the community's decision. An actual democracy. How about that. Ironic how the muh decentralisation crowd get so angry about this. This is EXACTLY how a decision like this should happen. Maybe enough people will upgrade. Maybe they won't. But decision making is outsourced to the users, and isn't confined to the small clique who have control over the repository and the bitcoin.org domain. It's Bitcoin working exactly as it should. Labelling Gavin giving people a choice as a "power grab" only demonstrates that you are an incumbent threatened by a reduction of your own power. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: BillyBobZorton on May 30, 2015, 03:44:38 PM It is a bad thing that one person currently has so much influence on the bitcoin perception This. It's starting to sound like as if he was the CEO of Bitcoin. If he wants to leave and work in some forkcoin no one cares about, so what, no one is going to mine that thing beyond a pump and dump cycle.him leaving should not cause more than a small dip on the news, otherwise it has become to centralized around him. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: BillyBobZorton on May 30, 2015, 03:46:24 PM And nobody actually read his post. This is the biggest amount of FUD I have seen in a long time. -snip- Please point to the place where "Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork" In an endless effort to promote a ShitCoin named GoldCoin, OP is doing all these. Check his post history. I blocked his 2 previous FUD right after his post. But, this time I missed it. :-\ unfortunately the noobs may believe this shit ::) Oh so is MicroGuy shilling his GoldCoin thing again with FUD? Yeah should have seen this coming. Props on being so persistent on it tho, he's been at it for ages lol. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: coinableS on May 30, 2015, 03:48:01 PM If we can't come to an agreement soon then I will do this and this.
What a terrible and misleading title, he's not quitting or making a threat. Someone needs take a stance on resolving this issue and Gavin has been brainstorming openly with the public and different solutions which I commend. Openly proposing solutions and/or methods to resolve is what we need. If trolls are going to spread FUD on every Gavin post, then so be it; that is what trolls do. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: redsn0w on May 30, 2015, 03:50:40 PM congrats on linking to a totally unbiased resource OP /sarcasm Other devs don't seem to get it. It's not their decision. It's the community's decision. An actual democracy. How about that. Ironic how the muh decentralisation crowd get so angry about this. This is EXACTLY how a decision like this should happen. Maybe enough people will upgrade. Maybe they won't. But decision making is outsourced to the users, and isn't confined to the small clique who have control over the repository and the bitcoin.org domain. It's Bitcoin working exactly as it should. Labelling Gavin giving people a choice as a "power grab" only demonstrates that you are an incumbent threatened by a reduction of your own power. I like to call it anarchy, not democracy but yes it is only a community decision but in this community there the the big miner farm, the speculator, the payment gateway etc... So at the end it is not really our decision. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: sdmathis on May 30, 2015, 04:26:58 PM It is a bad thing that one person currently has so much influence on the bitcoin perception him leaving should not cause more than a small dip on the news, otherwise it has become to centralized around him. So much for decentralization. Maybe we should change the name to GavinCoin. I'm joking of course. There's no reason to panic. Gavin is not Bitcoin, and Bitcoin is not Gavin. Let him go. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: manselr on May 30, 2015, 04:29:11 PM Other projects of decentralized natures that require of the approval of people running nodes such as Freenet, had hard forks, and guess what, nothing happened. The preferred version continued, the other got deprecated and only a couple dudes still run it for some reason.
Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: achow101 on May 30, 2015, 04:38:10 PM Have you guys noticed that he is asking for opinions? He isn't threatening anything and he wants to implement this, so he is lobbying for people to switch to Bitcoin XT, but there is no threat. I also noticed that Bitcoin XT hasn't been updated in 5 months.
Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: hund on May 30, 2015, 04:43:37 PM Gavin should GTFO altready and not come back. His altcoin will be a failure. Bitcoin is bigger than Gavin.
Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: achow101 on May 30, 2015, 04:49:46 PM One question is whether Gavin passes off the alert key. If he leaves Bitcoin Core dev and works on Bitcoin XT, will he give the alert key to someone else or will he keep it and once the fork is finished, alert everyone to switch to the fork. That could be the threat, but he doesn't actually threaten anyone in the message to the mailing list.
Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: BTCat on May 30, 2015, 04:58:00 PM One question is whether Gavin passes off the alert key. If he leaves Bitcoin Core dev and works on Bitcoin XT, will he give the alert key to someone else or will he keep it and once the fork is finished, alert everyone to switch to the fork. That could be the threat, but he doesn't actually threaten anyone in the message to the mailing list. Mighty guy. Can make Bitcoin how he wants it. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: redsn0w on May 30, 2015, 05:25:23 PM Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: pereira4 on May 30, 2015, 06:20:24 PM Yeah, try telling that to people when they try to use BTC and there are so many transactions per second that shit takes ages to get confirmed etc. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Nancarrow on May 30, 2015, 06:20:50 PM It is a bad thing that one person currently has so much influence on the bitcoin perception Oh, don't worry. Mircea Popescu's "influence on the bitcoin perception" seems to be waning quite rapidly. Yeah, the first page of this thread was mostly sky-is-falling stuff, but we've turned the corner and the fudsters are being called out. Hell, one guy even posted Gavin's exact words so we wouldn't have to go to the trouble of so many mouse clicks. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Nancarrow on May 30, 2015, 06:24:20 PM Yeah, try telling that to people when they try to use BTC and there are so many transactions per second that shit takes ages to get confirmed etc. That's not how transaction bottlenecks work. They work in precisely the opposite way - transactions take ages to get confirmed when there isn't enough room in the block for them. Maybe I was a bit premature to say the thread turned the corner. :( Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: moriartybitcoin on May 30, 2015, 06:25:07 PM I don't see any reason to panic .. what is the worst that can happen with the fork? It's more of a technical issue for the nerds .. not affecting consumers
Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: connectthebots on May 30, 2015, 06:26:26 PM Yeah, try telling that to people when they try to use BTC and there are so many transactions per second that shit takes ages to get confirmed etc. That's not how transaction bottlenecks work. They work in precisely the opposite way - transactions take ages to get confirmed when there isn't enough room in the block for them. Maybe I was a bit premature to say the thread turned the corner. :( Except that there's around 1 transaction a second(Actually slightly less) in Bitcoin, which is basically nothing, so what Gavin is doing, is rushing things exponentially. Makes Zero sense and will deter people from running nodes if the blocksize is moved upto 20 MB so early. But hey, that's Bitcoin's centralization coming into full view for ya. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: redsn0w on May 30, 2015, 06:27:26 PM Yeah, try telling that to people when they try to use BTC and there are so many transactions per second that shit takes ages to get confirmed etc. I do not think, the unique secure thing is that the miner fee will drop dramatically. Because of the blocksize raise I am sure each tx I will send it will be surely included in the block (Also with a low fee). Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: moriartybitcoin on May 30, 2015, 06:44:04 PM I think Gavin has lost all credibility within the bitcoin community now ..
Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: redsn0w on May 30, 2015, 06:47:47 PM I think Gavin has lost all credibility within the bitcoin community now .. Yes, but he is still a bitcoin core dev... the unique thing we can do (or you can do) is "not follow his fork" if we don't agree with his choice but I am sure that at the end a lot of people will lose some real money during the existence of the two chains. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Nancarrow on May 30, 2015, 06:51:15 PM Yeah, try telling that to people when they try to use BTC and there are so many transactions per second that shit takes ages to get confirmed etc. That's not how transaction bottlenecks work. They work in precisely the opposite way - transactions take ages to get confirmed when there isn't enough room in the block for them. Maybe I was a bit premature to say the thread turned the corner. :( Except that there's around 1 transaction a second(Actually slightly less) in Bitcoin, which is basically nothing, so what Gavin is doing, is rushing things exponentially. Makes Zero sense and will deter people from running nodes if the blocksize is moved upto 20 MB so early. But hey, that's Bitcoin's centralization coming into full view for ya. Under 'gavincoin', 20MB is not the mandatory size of all new blocks. It's the maximum blocksize. If, as you say, Bitcoin is chugging along comfortably right now at 1 transaction a second, it's not suddenly going to jump to 20MB blocks overnight. OTOH if it DOES do that, it rather suggests that the 1 tr/sec was a bottleneck choking the system, doesn't it? That 20MB isn't going to be filled up unless the transactors need it to be, in which case it's a damn good job it was there. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: achow101 on May 30, 2015, 06:55:41 PM Under 'gavincoin', 20MB is not the mandatory size of all new blocks. It's the maximum blocksize. If, as you say, Bitcoin is chugging along comfortably right now at 1 transaction a second, it's not suddenly going to jump to 20MB blocks overnight. OTOH if it DOES do that, it rather suggests that the 1 tr/sec was a bottleneck choking the system, doesn't it? That 20MB isn't going to be filled up unless the transactors need it to be, in which case it's a damn good job it was there. However, if it was the bottleneck, then we would see tons of 1 Mb blocks right now, and there aren't. The average blocksize right now is around 0.5 Mb.Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: redsn0w on May 30, 2015, 06:56:04 PM Yeah, try telling that to people when they try to use BTC and there are so many transactions per second that shit takes ages to get confirmed etc. That's not how transaction bottlenecks work. They work in precisely the opposite way - transactions take ages to get confirmed when there isn't enough room in the block for them. Maybe I was a bit premature to say the thread turned the corner. :( Except that there's around 1 transaction a second(Actually slightly less) in Bitcoin, which is basically nothing, so what Gavin is doing, is rushing things exponentially. Makes Zero sense and will deter people from running nodes if the blocksize is moved upto 20 MB so early. But hey, that's Bitcoin's centralization coming into full view for ya. Under 'gavincoin', 20MB is not the mandatory size of all new blocks. It's the maximum blocksize. If, as you say, Bitcoin is chugging along comfortably right now at 1 transaction a second, it's not suddenly going to jump to 20MB blocks overnight. OTOH if it DOES do that, it rather suggests that the 1 tr/sec was a bottleneck choking the system, doesn't it? That 20MB isn't going to be filled up unless the transactors need it to be, in which case it's a damn good job it was there. No, the actual bitcoin can manage ~7 tx/sec... stop to say thing really no sense. Again, bitcoin should not compete with visa if we are talking about how much tx can manage *sec...because visa or other system will win surely. Bitcoin should compete as trust,rapidity and not chargeability. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Amph on May 30, 2015, 07:16:45 PM Yeah, try telling that to people when they try to use BTC and there are so many transactions per second that shit takes ages to get confirmed etc. That's not how transaction bottlenecks work. They work in precisely the opposite way - transactions take ages to get confirmed when there isn't enough room in the block for them. Maybe I was a bit premature to say the thread turned the corner. :( Except that there's around 1 transaction a second(Actually slightly less) in Bitcoin, which is basically nothing, so what Gavin is doing, is rushing things exponentially. Makes Zero sense and will deter people from running nodes if the blocksize is moved upto 20 MB so early. But hey, that's Bitcoin's centralization coming into full view for ya. Under 'gavincoin', 20MB is not the mandatory size of all new blocks. It's the maximum blocksize. If, as you say, Bitcoin is chugging along comfortably right now at 1 transaction a second, it's not suddenly going to jump to 20MB blocks overnight. OTOH if it DOES do that, it rather suggests that the 1 tr/sec was a bottleneck choking the system, doesn't it? That 20MB isn't going to be filled up unless the transactors need it to be, in which case it's a damn good job it was there. No, the actual bitcoin can manage ~7 tx/sec... stop to say thing really no sense. Again, bitcoin should not compete with visa if we are talking about how much tx can manage *sec...because visa or other system will win surely. Bitcoin should compete as trust,rapidity and not chargeability. it's more around 3-4 tx per second, because there are multisig, and because one trasaction includ input and output, 7 is just far-strected... Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: jabo38 on May 30, 2015, 07:22:29 PM just increase the block size and make it scalable. it is silly that people want to keep it small. Bitcoin needs to scale to grow.
Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: redsn0w on May 30, 2015, 07:32:58 PM Yeah, try telling that to people when they try to use BTC and there are so many transactions per second that shit takes ages to get confirmed etc. That's not how transaction bottlenecks work. They work in precisely the opposite way - transactions take ages to get confirmed when there isn't enough room in the block for them. Maybe I was a bit premature to say the thread turned the corner. :( Except that there's around 1 transaction a second(Actually slightly less) in Bitcoin, which is basically nothing, so what Gavin is doing, is rushing things exponentially. Makes Zero sense and will deter people from running nodes if the blocksize is moved upto 20 MB so early. But hey, that's Bitcoin's centralization coming into full view for ya. Under 'gavincoin', 20MB is not the mandatory size of all new blocks. It's the maximum blocksize. If, as you say, Bitcoin is chugging along comfortably right now at 1 transaction a second, it's not suddenly going to jump to 20MB blocks overnight. OTOH if it DOES do that, it rather suggests that the 1 tr/sec was a bottleneck choking the system, doesn't it? That 20MB isn't going to be filled up unless the transactors need it to be, in which case it's a damn good job it was there. No, the actual bitcoin can manage ~7 tx/sec... stop to say thing really no sense. Again, bitcoin should not compete with visa if we are talking about how much tx can manage *sec...because visa or other system will win surely. Bitcoin should compete as trust,rapidity and not chargeability. it's more around 3-4 tx per second, because there are multisig, and because one trasaction includ input and output, 7 is just far-strected... "If you’re not really a fan of digesting the technical aspects of Bitcoin and how it works, this probably wouldn’t be of concern to you. However, chances are that most Bitcoin users from all around the world hope that Bitcoin will actually become the currency of the future, but how can that really happen in the case that it currently only handles 7 transactions per second? Yes, that’s right. Each second, only 7 people are able to make a transaction, which is mostly due to the block size limit of a Bitcoin. To put things into a better perspective, only 420 people can make a transaction during the same minute. While this may seem like a large number, it definitely isn’t as nobody wants to wait minutes or even seconds before a transaction is actually completed." Source: http://themerkle.com/coins/overcoming-7-transactions-per-second-bitcoin-limit/ Most probably the article is wrong but I have aòways thought 7 tx/sec (now the average size of each block is 0.55 MB). Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: connectthebots on May 30, 2015, 07:33:22 PM Yeah, try telling that to people when they try to use BTC and there are so many transactions per second that shit takes ages to get confirmed etc. That's not how transaction bottlenecks work. They work in precisely the opposite way - transactions take ages to get confirmed when there isn't enough room in the block for them. Maybe I was a bit premature to say the thread turned the corner. :( Except that there's around 1 transaction a second(Actually slightly less) in Bitcoin, which is basically nothing, so what Gavin is doing, is rushing things exponentially. Makes Zero sense and will deter people from running nodes if the blocksize is moved upto 20 MB so early. But hey, that's Bitcoin's centralization coming into full view for ya. Under 'gavincoin', 20MB is not the mandatory size of all new blocks. It's the maximum blocksize. If, as you say, Bitcoin is chugging along comfortably right now at 1 transaction a second, it's not suddenly going to jump to 20MB blocks overnight. OTOH if it DOES do that, it rather suggests that the 1 tr/sec was a bottleneck choking the system, doesn't it? That 20MB isn't going to be filled up unless the transactors need it to be, in which case it's a damn good job it was there. No, the actual bitcoin can manage ~7 tx/sec... stop to say thing really no sense. Again, bitcoin should not compete with visa if we are talking about how much tx can manage *sec...because visa or other system will win surely. Bitcoin should compete as trust,rapidity and not chargeability. it's more around 3-4 tx per second, because there are multisig, and because one trasaction includ input and output, 7 is just far-strected... A decentralized system at this current stage cannot compete with a centralized system in terms of speed. Not in the least. Trying to put Bitcoin against VISA in speed will always be a losing battle for the moment. So... Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: achow101 on May 30, 2015, 07:40:11 PM "If you’re not really a fan of digesting the technical aspects of Bitcoin and how it works, this probably wouldn’t be of concern to you. However, chances are that most Bitcoin users from all around the world hope that Bitcoin will actually become the currency of the future, but how can that really happen in the case that it currently only handles 7 transactions per second? Yes, that’s right. Each second, only 7 people are able to make a transaction, which is mostly due to the block size limit of a Bitcoin. To put things into a better perspective, only 420 people can make a transaction during the same minute. While this may seem like a large number, it definitely isn’t as nobody wants to wait minutes or even seconds before a transaction is actually completed." I feel that the tx/sec measurement is misleading. With the current limit, a block can have about 5000 txs. This averages down to 8 tx/s and with the varying size of transactions and the extra data with a block, about 7 tx/sec. However, this doesn't mean that only 7 txs can be created and broadcast per second. You could theoretically have 5000 txs broadcast per second, and have 5000 tx/sec. But, only 5000 txs are put into a block and confirmed, which means that for more transactions to be confirmed, a larger block size is required.Source: http://themerkle.com/coins/overcoming-7-transactions-per-second-bitcoin-limit/ Most probably the article is wrong but I have aòways thought 7 tx/sec (now the average size of each block is 0.55 MB). Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Amph on May 30, 2015, 07:53:45 PM i was wrong on the limit 7 too, i thought as well that it was around 7, but this guy corrected me, and he have a point
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1070709.msg11458645#msg11458645 Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: redsn0w on May 30, 2015, 08:01:43 PM i was wrong on the limit 7 too, i thought as well that it was around 7, but this guy corrected me, and he have a point https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1070709.msg11458645#msg11458645 Thanks for the thread, here an interesting reply: but another question could be raised now, does 140 per second are enough if we reach fully adoption? or we need to raise it again in the future? That's the problem we really care about. we can't raise it again and again. We should find a way to solve this problem forever. That's the real solution for us.I think he was (is) right, because this is not a solution at all... later the dev should increase again the limit and 20 MB will be really useless and we start a new 'conflict' for 100 MB or more.... Bitcoin should not be in competition with the other system of payment (in a tx/sec point of view). It should compete in other way... Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: dballing on May 30, 2015, 08:03:10 PM If you allow Gavin to do this whose to say he won't do it again in 3-4 years??? First it's a dispute over blocksize, then what comes next?
Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: crazyivan on May 30, 2015, 08:05:24 PM If BTC s all about decentralization, one person must not effect BTC development.
On the other hand, I think he s right and XT is a way for BTC to go. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: mashcom on May 30, 2015, 08:07:46 PM If BTC s all about decentralization, one person must not effect BTC development. On the other hand, I think he s right and XT is a way for BTC to go. Without him a lot of people will dump BTC so he is needed in the bitcoin world but he should not say these things.... you and me and all the other users are free or maybe it is not right what I'm saying? Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: redsn0w on May 30, 2015, 08:09:42 PM If BTC s all about decentralization, one person must not effect BTC development. On the other hand, I think he s right and XT is a way for BTC to go. Without him a lot of people will dump BTC so he is needed in the bitcoin world but he should not say these things.... you and me and all the other users are free or maybe it is not right what I'm saying? Yes of course, we are free to choose if follow or not follow the gavin proposal but also if the majority of normal users like me and you (not miners) will stay in the actual chain and the big miner farm will follow the other chain ... then in that case it will be really a problem. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Nancarrow on May 30, 2015, 08:32:43 PM Under 'gavincoin', 20MB is not the mandatory size of all new blocks. It's the maximum blocksize. If, as you say, Bitcoin is chugging along comfortably right now at 1 transaction a second, it's not suddenly going to jump to 20MB blocks overnight. OTOH if it DOES do that, it rather suggests that the 1 tr/sec was a bottleneck choking the system, doesn't it? That 20MB isn't going to be filled up unless the transactors need it to be, in which case it's a damn good job it was there. However, if it was the bottleneck, then we would see tons of 1 Mb blocks right now, and there aren't. The average blocksize right now is around 0.5 Mb.Right. And I presented you with an either/or situation, and you have identified one of the branches does not apply. Therefore I contend the other one does. Since Bitcoin is not currently filling up 1MB blocks, there is no worry that block sizes will immediately become 20MB when the limit is raised. If and when they do it will be because it was NEEDED. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Elwar on May 30, 2015, 09:54:51 PM I'll just start posting the truth on all of these FUD threads.
Here is Gavin's question on a discussion board: Quote What do other people think? If we can't come to an agreement soon, then I'll ask for help reviewing/submitting patches to Mike's Bitcoin-Xt project that implement a big increase now that grows over time so we may never have to go through all this rancor and debate again. I'll then ask for help lobbying the merchant services and exchanges and hosted wallet companies and other bitcoind-using-infrastructure companies (and anybody who agrees with me that we need bigger blocks sooner rather than later) to run Bitcoin-Xt instead of Bitcoin Core, and state that they are running it. We'll be able to see uptake on the network by monitoring client versions. Perhaps by the time that happens there will be consensus bigger blocks are needed sooner rather than later; if so, great! The early deployment will just serve as early testing, and all of the software already deployed will ready for bigger blocks. But if there is still no consensus among developers but the "bigger blocks now" movement is successful, I'll ask for help getting big miners to do the same, and use the soft-fork block version voting mechanism to (hopefully) get a majority and then a super-majority willing to produce bigger blocks. The purpose of that process is to prove to any doubters that they'd better start supporting bigger blocks or they'll be left behind, and to give them a chance to upgrade before that happens. Because if we can't come to consensus here, the ultimate authority for determining consensus is what code the majority of merchants and exchanges and miners are running. -- -- Gavin Andresen Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Nancarrow on May 30, 2015, 09:58:40 PM I'm nobody, but FWIW I appreciate your effort, Elwar.
Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: gustav on May 30, 2015, 10:32:03 PM just increase the block size and make it scalable. it is silly that people want to keep it small. Bitcoin needs to scale to grow. I don't see any reason to panic .. what is the worst that can happen with the fork? It's more of a technical issue for the nerds .. not affecting consumers https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1075532.0 40 Million is the price to spam the blockchain to 1 Terrabyte HD use. #justsayin' Do you want to download 2,88 GB every day just to use Gavincoin? Because that'll be the reality when someone who doesn't like Gavincoin with a little money decides he wants to spam it. And you'll be waiting just as long for your txs as you would on 1MB blocks ... Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: repentance on May 30, 2015, 10:55:14 PM Though we know that even if Gavin supported this fork and the network stays on mining the current fork, still there will be doubts among the general public seeing that one of the prominent figures in bitcoin leaves for another project. The general public doesn't care. Hell, half the people in this community don't care beyond whether or not it will affect Bitcoin price. By necessity, the devs take a much longer term view of Bitcoin than most users and price is not - and should not be - their primary concern. People leave projects all the time, often for projects similar to those they're leaving. It seems to me that what people are worried about is that Bitcoin users will make the "wrong" decision and back the "wrong" horse. Maybe they will, but that possibility isn't a good reason to deny them the choice. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: dasource on May 30, 2015, 10:59:07 PM About time someone will balls took the bull by the horns ...
Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Pecunia non olet on May 31, 2015, 05:16:16 AM I think it's good Gavin finally understood he needs to make an altcoin.
I just hope he'll leave Bitcoin alone then. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: subSTRATA on May 31, 2015, 05:32:05 AM What exactly is BitcoinXT? is it an altcoin?
Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Muhammed Zakir on May 31, 2015, 05:35:38 AM And nobody actually read his post. This is the biggest amount of FUD I have seen in a long time. Quote What do other people think? If we can't come to an agreement soon, then I'll ask for help reviewing/submitting patches to Mike's Bitcoin-Xt project that implement a big increase now that grows over time so we may never have to go through all this rancor and debate again. I'll then ask for help lobbying the merchant services and exchanges and hosted wallet companies and other bitcoind-using-infrastructure companies (and anybody who agrees with me that we need bigger blocks sooner rather than later) to run Bitcoin-Xt instead of Bitcoin Core, and state that they are running it. We'll be able to see uptake on the network by monitoring client versions. Perhaps by the time that happens there will be consensus bigger blocks are needed sooner rather than later; if so, great! The early deployment will just serve as early testing, and all of the software already deployed will ready for bigger blocks. But if there is still no consensus among developers but the "bigger blocks now" movement is successful, I'll ask for help getting big miners to do the same, and use the soft-fork block version voting mechanism to (hopefully) get a majority and then a super-majority willing to produce bigger blocks. The purpose of that process is to prove to any doubters that they'd better start supporting bigger blocks or they'll be left behind, and to give them a chance to upgrade before that happens. Because if we can't come to consensus here, the ultimate authority for determining consensus is what code the majority of merchants and exchanges and miners are running. -- -- Gavin Andresen Please point to the place where "Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork" What exactly is BitcoinXT? is it an altcoin? Bitcoin XT is a patch set on top of Bitcoin Core, with a focus on upgrades to the peer to peer protocol. By running it you can opt in to providing the Bitcoin network with additional services beyond what Bitcoin Core nodes provide. - https://github.com/bitcoinxt/bitcoinxt/blob/0.10.1/README.md Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: ArticMine on May 31, 2015, 06:04:56 AM Gavin has little choice but to take this course of action as Bitcoin cannot continue crippled by the 1 MB limit. This is not a new debate. As the following thread dating back to 2010 demonstrates. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1347.0;all Yes I have brought it back from the dead twice, but Bitcoin can not continue without dealing with the 1 MB limit for another two years, so I doubt I can do this a third time. :(
Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: EternalWingsofGod on May 31, 2015, 06:47:25 AM "Today on the Sourceforge hosted Bitcoin-development mailing list Gavin Andresen has threatened to leave his present group of Bitcoin software developers over their objections to his demands for a rapid hardfork of the Bitcoin network. In the event his demands are not met Gavin plans to join Mike Hearn's Bitcoin-XT project which is a fork of the Bitcoin client where Hearn implements patches that Gavin's current affiliated developers find too risky to implement in any mainline Bitcoin client. If Gavin defects to Bitcoin-XT he plans to work with Hearn to lobby merchants, miners, and businesses to move to Bitcoin-XT. Previously Mike Hearn was responsible for the March 2013 Bitcoin network crisis." Original post: http://qntra.net/2015/05/gavin-threatens-to-quit-bitcoin-development-and-join-hearns-fork/ Based on this article it seems like a development choice to work on a second route without the full team behind it. As it is I see no issue with following different routes Consensus will be reached through multiple paths but until its needed people will use Core and if it proves to be a significant issue move to XT if this is a two route fork then it could become one of Bitcoins first splits. We will see though if unity is kept or not. It is a bad thing that one person currently has so much influence on the bitcoin perception It is a bit concerning that Bitcoin is centralized in a sense on the reliance of one particular dev but that aside I can understand Gavins role and it does remain important. him leaving should not cause more than a small dip on the news, otherwise it has become to centralized around him. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Kprawn on May 31, 2015, 06:59:23 AM The ultimate authority for determining consensus is definitely not FORCING a situation, where you as a Core developer, create a situation, where you say... Either play the game, they way I want us to play, or I will destroy your ball, and me and my friends will play with another ball.
Is this the mentality of a Core developer? No wonder so many countries does not trust the WESTERN influence in the development scene. >:( >:( Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Vaccomondus on May 31, 2015, 07:02:52 AM Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: tokeweed on May 31, 2015, 07:19:22 AM "Today on the Sourceforge hosted Bitcoin-development mailing list Gavin Andresen has threatened to leave his present group of Bitcoin software developers over their objections to his demands for a rapid hardfork of the Bitcoin network. In the event his demands are not met Gavin plans to join Mike Hearn's Bitcoin-XT project which is a fork of the Bitcoin client where Hearn implements patches that Gavin's current affiliated developers find too risky to implement in any mainline Bitcoin client. If Gavin defects to Bitcoin-XT he plans to work with Hearn to lobby merchants, miners, and businesses to move to Bitcoin-XT. Previously Mike Hearn was responsible for the March 2013 Bitcoin network crisis." Original post: http://qntra.net/2015/05/gavin-threatens-to-quit-bitcoin-development-and-join-hearns-fork/ See you all in Litecoin. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: RoadStress on May 31, 2015, 07:21:51 AM I think it's good Gavin finally understood he needs to make an altcoin. I just hope he'll leave Bitcoin alone then. Hello MP puppet! How are you today? Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Lauda on May 31, 2015, 09:34:00 AM However, if it was the bottleneck, then we would see tons of 1 Mb blocks right now, and there aren't. The average blocksize right now is around 0.5 Mb. Right. And I presented you with an either/or situation, and you have identified one of the branches does not apply. Therefore I contend the other one does. Since Bitcoin is not currently filling up 1MB blocks, there is no worry that block sizes will immediately become 20MB when the limit is raised. If and when they do it will be because it was NEEDED. Doing a hard fork will also be much harder. Do you even have an idea what the media will do to Bitcoin once it stops including some transactions into blocks? It's better to prevent this from happening on time rather than having to fix it after it happens. Some people just have big authority problems. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: iCEBREAKER on May 31, 2015, 09:36:25 AM Wow, so a developer has so much centralized influence that that him moving away is gonna decide an outcome? Looks like Bitcoin's semi-decentralization is over. Onto the full centralization road people. Yes, Gavin's coup is being greeted with thunderous applause from the cowed Redditards. What a nightmare. I hope to wake up and find out Bitcoin XT was just a collaborative hoax between /buttcoin and Gavin. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: iCEBREAKER on May 31, 2015, 09:43:09 AM Bitcoin XT is a patch set on top of Bitcoin Core, with a focus on upgrades to the peer to peer protocol. By running it you can opt in to providing the Bitcoin network with additional services beyond what Bitcoin Core nodes provide. This is 100% textbook Embrace, Extend, Extinguish. Gavin is putting MasterNodes on the Bitcoin network. What could possibly go wrong? Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: sintax on May 31, 2015, 10:02:28 AM Isn't Hearn that dude who wanted to force proof of identity by having people verify their passports?
Bitcoin >> Gavcoin >> Fedcoin Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Nancarrow on May 31, 2015, 10:07:31 AM However, if it was the bottleneck, then we would see tons of 1 Mb blocks right now, and there aren't. The average blocksize right now is around 0.5 Mb. Right. And I presented you with an either/or situation, and you have identified one of the branches does not apply. Therefore I contend the other one does. Since Bitcoin is not currently filling up 1MB blocks, there is no worry that block sizes will immediately become 20MB when the limit is raised. If and when they do it will be because it was NEEDED. Doing a hard fork will also be much harder. Do you even have an idea what the media will do to Bitcoin once it stops including some transactions into blocks? It's better to prevent this from happening on time rather than having to fix it after it happens. Some people just have big authority problems. Er, dude, I'm PRO-fork and I was clarifying to someone why an ANTI-fork piece of reasoning ("The blocks will bloat immediately, we won't be able to keep up") was bogus. Maybe have some more coffee? ETA: actually I can see where the problem arises - I was responding to someone who is also PRO-fork. But my point stands. Apologies, knightdk, for misinterpreting you in much the same way LaudaM misinterpreted me. :-[ Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: LiteCoinGuy on May 31, 2015, 10:13:14 AM 21 MB - the new blocksize limit! Makes more sense :D !
Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: redsn0w on May 31, 2015, 10:14:17 AM Isn't Hearn that dude who wanted to force proof of identity by having people verify their passports? Bitcoin >> Gavcoin >> Fedcoin The people don't understand that we are not obliged to follow his 'fork' so why are you complaining? If you don't want to follow or accept the Gavin's proposal, simple hold your coin or sell them for any FIAT currency. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Lauda on May 31, 2015, 10:44:43 AM The core developers, Gregory, Pieter, Luke and Matt are involved in a company Blockstream: https://www.blockstream.com/team/ .
Obviously they want Blockstream to be successful. Please tell me how Gavin is biased and the others aren't. ::) There are two sides to (almost) each story, and there definitely are hidden agendas involved here. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: redsn0w on May 31, 2015, 11:03:25 AM The core developers, Gregory, Pieter, Luke and Matt are involved in a company Blockstream: https://www.blockstream.com/team/ . Obviously they want Blockstream to be successful. Please tell me how Gavin is biased and the others aren't. ::) There are two sides to (almost) each story, and there definitely are hidden agendas involved here. So are you saying that it is present a conflict of interest, because I do not see why the other core can vote or agree with the Gavin's proposal. A technology should be updated if it wants to stay alive. However I will grab my popcorn and watch! Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Muhammed Zakir on May 31, 2015, 11:04:43 AM The core developers, Gregory, Pieter, Luke and Matt are involved in a company Blockstream: https://www.blockstream.com/team/ . Obviously they want Blockstream to be successful. Please tell me how Gavin is biased and the others aren't. ::) There are two sides to (almost) each story, and there definitely are hidden agendas involved here. One of the biggest problem of people is that they only accept what they were provided with. Medias exploit this easily. BTW, where did Gavin threatens to quit Bitcoin development? And isn't this really Gavin's fork? The title is misleading. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: redsn0w on May 31, 2015, 11:07:33 AM The core developers, Gregory, Pieter, Luke and Matt are involved in a company Blockstream: https://www.blockstream.com/team/ . Obviously they want Blockstream to be successful. Please tell me how Gavin is biased and the others aren't. ::) There are two sides to (almost) each story, and there definitely are hidden agendas involved here. One of the biggest problem of people is that they only accept what they were provided with. Medias exploit this easily. BTW, where did Gavin threatens to quit Bitcoin development? And isn't this really Gavin's fork? The title is misleading. Yes the thread title is misleading, simply it is not a threat : What do other people think? If we can't come to an agreement soon, then I'll ask for help reviewing/submitting patches to Mike's Bitcoin-Xt project that implement a big increase now that grows over time so we may never have to go through all this rancor and debate again. I'll then ask for help lobbying the merchant services and exchanges and hosted wallet companies and other bitcoind-using-infrastructure companies (and anybody who agrees with me that we need bigger blocks sooner rather than later) to run Bitcoin-Xt instead of Bitcoin Core, and state that they are running it. We'll be able to see uptake on the network by monitoring client versions. Perhaps by the time that happens there will be consensus bigger blocks are needed sooner rather than later; if so, great! The early deployment will just serve as early testing, and all of the software already deployed will ready for bigger blocks. But if there is still no consensus among developers but the "bigger blocks now" movement is successful, I'll ask for help getting big miners to do the same, and use the soft-fork block version voting mechanism to (hopefully) get a majority and then a super-majority willing to produce bigger blocks. The purpose of that process is to prove to any doubters that they'd better start supporting bigger blocks or they'll be left behind, and to give them a chance to upgrade before that happens. Because if we can't come to consensus here, the ultimate authority for determining consensus is what code the majority of merchants and exchanges and miners are running. -- -- Gavin Andresen sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/message/34155307/ And there are also some interesting article on his Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Lauda on May 31, 2015, 11:35:24 AM So are you saying that it is present a conflict of interest, because I do not see why the other core can vote or agree with the Gavin's proposal. A technology should be updated if it wants to stay alive. The thing is that these updates can't be just patched in to Bitcoin at will. The developers usually review/discuss changes and need to reach consensus when it is something big as the 20MB block size (even though it is not big).However I will grab my popcorn and watch! Don't get me wrong. I do not support Gavin's Bitcoin XT fork at all. This will severely damage the whole ecosystem. I'm trying to say that the developers have hidden agendas (mostly financial) to why they're against the block size increase. One of the biggest problem of people is that they only accept what they were provided with. Medias exploit this easily. Things are taking a turn. The problem is actually that every single dumdum in the world has the right to join Bitcoin and start spewing out nonsense. The developers will become exhausted and stressed out.BTW, where did Gavin threatens to quit Bitcoin development? And isn't this really Gavin's fork? The title is misleading. We've read thousands of different opinions, most of which are utter nonsense backed up only by the unicorns in my garden. Things are getting out of control. Look at the drama now. Maxwell will potentially leave if Bitcoin XT rolls out: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/37vg8y/is_the_blockstream_company_the_reason_why_4_core/crqbd78 Don't tell me it is misleading or anything and just read his damn post. Quote If the Bitcoin community wants to go commit suicide, I'm confident that I can sell my most of my bitcoins before most of the public has realized things have gone wrong. . Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: sintax on May 31, 2015, 11:47:25 AM Isn't Hearn that dude who wanted to force proof of identity by having people verify their passports? Bitcoin >> Gavcoin >> Fedcoin The people don't understand that we are not obliged to follow his 'fork' so why are you complaining? If you don't want to follow or accept the Gavin's proposal, simple hold your coin or sell them for any FIAT currency. Oh the illusion of choice, lol sure thing mate, keep increasing that post count :) So we should just sit back and let Fed-friendly Gavin/Hearn turn Bitcoin into a centralized shitcoin, no thanks. Last thing I want to do is cash out to fiat... Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: redsn0w on May 31, 2015, 11:49:55 AM So are you saying that it is present a conflict of interest, because I do not see why the other core can vote or agree with the Gavin's proposal. A technology should be updated if it wants to stay alive. The thing is that these updates can't be just patched in to Bitcoin at will. The developers usually review/discuss changes and need to reach consensus when it is something big as the 20MB block size (even though it is not big).However I will grab my popcorn and watch! Don't get me wrong. I do not support Gavin's Bitcoin XT fork at all. This will severely damage the whole ecosystem. I'm trying to say that the developers have hidden agendas (mostly financial) to why they're against the block size increase. ... Like I said yesterday: 1. probably its just overblown drama. Consensus will be reached. 2. I think the block size needs to increase, its not "fuckery". 3. If a fork does happen, its bad for Bitcoin but if you're HODLing , you'll have both coins so you can wait and see what happens when the dust settles. This is so risky, if one of the chain will be abbandone you will lose all your coin ::) and this why all the community is worried (it is only a question of money, and it is really a tall order for gavin). I will go with XT, but I will also hold my actual bitcoin... let's see what it will happen. However I am also thinking, why few people should have the power to choose for us? Is it not against with the bitcoin philosophy? Isn't Hearn that dude who wanted to force proof of identity by having people verify their passports? Bitcoin >> Gavcoin >> Fedcoin The people don't understand that we are not obliged to follow his 'fork' so why are you complaining? If you don't want to follow or accept the Gavin's proposal, simple hold your coin or sell them for any FIAT currency. Oh the illusion of choice, lol sure thing mate, keep increasing that post count :) So we should just sit back and let Fed-friendly Gavin/Hearn turn Bitcoin into a centralized shitcoin, no thanks. Last thing I want to do is cash out to fiat... What is your proposal to 'fight' against the Gavin's proposal? The unique thing that we can do is 'not update the client'... or maybe do you have something of better? Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Lauda on May 31, 2015, 11:56:04 AM I will go with XT, but I will also hold my actual bitcoin... let's see what it will happen. However I am also thinking, why few people should have the power to choose for us? Is it not against with the bitcoin philosophy? Please elaborate why? This is exactly what I've been talking about. People without proper technical background will chose the wrong chain/software and things are going to start falling apart.You do realize that XT has patches that have been rejected for Core due to them weakening the security? I don't know the exact details but I would like someone to present it all nicely. Even though I have respect for Gavin what he is doing is wrong. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: qwk on May 31, 2015, 12:01:02 PM 21 MB - the new blocksize limit! Makes more sense :D ! 21.000.000 bits! Wait, no, that's just 2.5 MB.Make that 21.000.000 Bytes! Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Amph on May 31, 2015, 12:07:50 PM Even though I have respect for Gavin what he is doing is wrong. so what is your plan? because apparently you think that the other 4 dev are wrong too or you are not with them, at least this is what i get from this post The core developers, Gregory, Pieter, Luke and Matt are involved in a company Blockstream: https://www.blockstream.com/team/ . Obviously they want Blockstream to be successful. Please tell me how Gavin is biased and the others aren't. ::) There are two sides to (almost) each story, and there definitely are hidden agendas involved here. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Lauda on May 31, 2015, 12:21:16 PM Even though I have respect for Gavin what he is doing is wrong. so what is your plan? because apparently you think that the other 4 dev are wrong too or you are not with them, at least this is what i get from this postThe core developers, Gregory, Pieter, Luke and Matt are involved in a company Blockstream: https://www.blockstream.com/team/ . Obviously they want Blockstream to be successful. Please tell me how Gavin is biased and the others aren't. ::) There are two sides to (almost) each story, and there definitely are hidden agendas involved here. Nonsense like this is what I'm trying to prevent, but it seems futile.. gavin fucked it up for everybody say bye bye to your investments What I would prefer: It is a fact that the blocks are eventually going to get filled with transactions and that some aren't going to get included. Keeping it like that would be horrible as rich people would be able to prioritize transactions (completely against Bitcoin). Something has to be done in order to prevent this rather than to fix it once it happens. They also have to properly explain the problems with XT. Which patches and exactly why have they been rejected. The developers need to show potential and better (elaborate why) solutions to the 1MB cap and implement it on time into the Core. This would be a substitute to the what Gavin wants and should theoretically work better than just increasing the cap. Gavin needs to stop with this XT nonsense, because no good will come of it. This only has a potential negative effect on the whole ecosystem, as I fail to see any potential positive ones. Feel free to correct me. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: sintax on May 31, 2015, 12:29:26 PM Is this a forum? Are you saying that I can't post ::)? Yeah satoshi just called me, he said you should be banned from posting on this forum. No it was just a snide comment about the amount of posts you're making, nothing more, nothing less. So we should just sit back and let Fed-friendly Gavin/Hearn turn Bitcoin into a centralized shitcoin, no thanks. Last thing I want to do is cash out to fiat... What is your proposal to 'fight' against the Gavin's proposal? The unique thing that we can do is 'not update the client'... or maybe do you have something of better? All I'm saying is changes do need to made, just not in the way these guys are proposing with XT. Their divide and conquer tactics aren't going to help either though it will be interesting to see how this all pans out. Prepare for the Bitcoin civil war :) Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Shawshank on May 31, 2015, 12:59:42 PM I feel it is crucial that all core developers go for a compromise on the solution and they speak as one single voice. Maybe we can upgrade to a 10 MB or a 4 MB block?
I personally don't know what to support because I currently don't see a winning consensus on either solution and opinions are scattered in the web. A manifesto with a workable compromise solution by the key core developers would definitely help. From that moment on, companies, merchants, users and miners would surely follow. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: redsn0w on May 31, 2015, 01:03:22 PM I will go with XT, but I will also hold my actual bitcoin... let's see what it will happen. However I am also thinking, why few people should have the power to choose for us? Is it not against with the bitcoin philosophy? Please elaborate why?Because the 1MB limit it was added later for prevent the spam, it was a thing not from the beginning... I would prefer a random block size instead of 1-5-20-100 MB ;). This is exactly what I've been talking about. People without proper technical background will chose the wrong chain/software and things are going to start falling apart. Exactly, I think the same. We should also think that not all the people who are using bitcoin are registered here in the forum or have some knowledge about what it is happening now. You do realize that XT has patches that have been rejected for Core due to them weakening the security? I don't know the exact details but I would like someone to present it all nicely. Even though I have respect for Gavin what he is doing is wrong. I didn't know this thing before your post, I would like also to learn more about this fact (and I will make my own research). Gavin's ultimate way proposal is a sort of "with me or against me" (or this is what I thought the first time when I have read his message). So we should just sit back and let Fed-friendly Gavin/Hearn turn Bitcoin into a centralized shitcoin, no thanks. Last thing I want to do is cash out to fiat... What is your proposal to 'fight' against the Gavin's proposal? The unique thing that we can do is 'not update the client'... or maybe do you have something of better? All I'm saying is changes do need to made, just not in the way these guys are proposing with XT. Their divide and conquer tactics aren't going to help either though it will be interesting to see how this all pans out. Prepare for the Bitcoin civil war :) So is it only the proposing way not the 'change itself' and yes it will be a real bitcoin civil war, only who will be in the correct chain will win. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: not altcoin hitler on May 31, 2015, 04:08:16 PM Gavin should leave and should not be allowed to tinker with the code of Bitcoin ever again. He's a shitcoin dev.
Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: shulio on May 31, 2015, 04:47:09 PM Gavin should leave and should not be allowed to tinker with the code of Bitcoin ever again. He's a shitcoin dev. He is one of the reputable member and an asset for bitcoin, although his proposal here is abit too much for the consensus. His threats of leaving doesnt sound like a threat, more like asking for help from hearn. If he leave the team, there will be a huge debate on who will fill his spot later Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Gibbs187x on May 31, 2015, 04:49:32 PM Bitcoin will die and shadowcash will rise you all fools
Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Muhammed Zakir on May 31, 2015, 04:59:36 PM Bitcoin will die and shadowcash will rise you all fools Says a man without experience! :-\ Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Gibbs187x on May 31, 2015, 05:02:27 PM Bitcoin will die and shadowcash will rise you all fools Says a man without experience! :-\ Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: iCEBREAKER on May 31, 2015, 05:10:45 PM The core developers, Gregory, Pieter, Luke and Matt are involved in a company Blockstream: https://www.blockstream.com/team/ . Obviously they want Blockstream to be successful. Please tell me how Gavin is biased and the others aren't. ::) There are two sides to (almost) each story, and there definitely are hidden agendas involved here. Luke is involved in Blockstream? I don't see him at your /team/ link. Also conspicuously absent is Garzik, who opposes Bitcoin-XT as well. Either way, the 'Only Blockstream conflicts of interest prevent 20mb block support' meme is idiotic. Case in point: Mircea. So fuck off with the defamatory accusations of "hidden agendas." While the other core devs' are not, Gavin's biases are uniquely disqualifying: -Gavin could care less about TOR users and decentralization -Gavin wants to change the 10 min block target -Gavin doesn't believe proof of work has a place in BTC's long-term future -Gavin pointedly bypassed the normal proposal discussion channels in favor of smoky/spooky VC backrooms and Reddit demagoguery He's either gone crazy or been compromised. I don't need to speculate about the why or how to see that. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: GenTarkin on May 31, 2015, 05:18:16 PM So, what OP is saying that Bitcoin really is indeed centralized after all? =P
Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Amph on May 31, 2015, 05:42:14 PM So, what OP is saying that Bitcoin really is indeed centralized after all? =P the development must be centralized, we are still long away from program that can build themselves, and thus making software development decentralized...on a serious note this wasn't never the probem satoshi should've simply left the client as it was at the beginning without the limit of 1 MB Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: dKingston on May 31, 2015, 05:42:36 PM despite all this hullaballoo .. no bitcoin price slide. apparently the market does not give a crap about Gavin
Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Muhammed Zakir on May 31, 2015, 05:43:28 PM Bitcoin will die and shadowcash will rise you all fools Says a man without experience! :-\ So, what OP is saying that Bitcoin really is indeed centralized after all? =P well of course bitcoin is Centralized there is no anonymous transactions for btc lol Need Something More Anonymous Than Bitcoin? Try ShadowCash! http://www.newsbtc.com/2015/05/29/need-something-more-anonymous-than-bitcoin-try-shadowcash/ You SDC trolls just spam all over the place. Please stop spamming. No offence. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Gibbs187x on May 31, 2015, 05:49:00 PM Bitcoin will die and shadowcash will rise you all fools Says a man without experience! :-\ So, what OP is saying that Bitcoin really is indeed centralized after all? =P well of course bitcoin is Centralized there is no anonymous transactions for btc lol Need Something More Anonymous Than Bitcoin? Try ShadowCash! http://www.newsbtc.com/2015/05/29/need-something-more-anonymous-than-bitcoin-try-shadowcash/ You SDC trolls just spam all over the place. Please stop spamming. No offence. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: LiteCoinGuy on May 31, 2015, 05:49:45 PM despite all this hullaballoo .. no bitcoin price slide. apparently the market does not give a crap about the trolls. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: crazyearner on May 31, 2015, 06:00:00 PM Good luck if he does move just gives more room for someone else to jump in his position and make things better if making threats to move due to wanting another chain will just become another alt coin. Even if bitcoin does fall apart due to devs leaving then so be it give another coin the chance to take the leadership.
Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: iCEBREAKER on May 31, 2015, 06:10:43 PM Things are taking a turn. The problem is actually that every single dumdum in the world has the right to join Bitcoin and start spewing out nonsense. The developers will become exhausted and stressed out. We've read thousands of different opinions, most of which are utter nonsense backed up only by the unicorns in my garden. Things are getting out of control. Look at the drama now. Maxwell will potentially leave if Bitcoin XT rolls out: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/37vg8y/is_the_blockstream_company_the_reason_why_4_core/crqbd78 Don't tell me it is misleading or anything and just read his damn post. Quote If the Bitcoin community wants to go commit suicide, I'm confident that I can sell my most of my bitcoins before most of the public has realized things have gone wrong. . Drama? In Bitcoin? Inconceivable! But yes, things are getting out of control. We have our Lead Dev trolling the rest of the Core team, FFS! WTF? As a fan of epic trolls, I'm very impressed and entertained. But as a long-term hodlr, it's a bit unnerving. This season of All My Bitcoins is only setting the scene for next year's 'Civil War: Everything Burns' story arc. We might be in trouble if Gavin has found a way to generate anti-anti-fragility. Is XT a black swan? :P changes do need to made, just not in the way these guys are proposing with XT. Their divide and conquer tactics aren't going to help either though it will be interesting to see how this all pans out. Prepare for the Bitcoin civil war My Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Lauda on May 31, 2015, 06:20:23 PM Luke is involved in Blockstream? I don't see him at your /team/ link. Also conspicuously absent is Garzik, who opposes Bitcoin-XT as well. You're correct as I can't find information myself. Looks like the source is wrong or I'm failing to find Luke's involvement with Blockstream. Although it is still 3 of them involved.Where is Garzik? Either way, the 'Only Blockstream conflicts of interest prevent 20mb block support' meme is idiotic. That's not the point. I was trying to point out that there are probably things going on behind the scenes that we are not aware of. It would be unwise to say that being involved with Blockstream has no effect on their denial of 20MB blocks.Case in point: Mircea. So fuck off with the defamatory accusations of "hidden agendas." Ad hominem anyone? You should express yourself in a better way if you want people to take you more seriously.Update: I still consider that it applies, even though it isn't direct to the character. While the other core devs' are not, Gavin's biases are uniquely disqualifying: I've seen no information in regards to the first point. However I'm against the three others. While I've stated in another thread that the developers need to propose solutions that are better than Gavins and implement on time. They should stick together rather than disband at times like these. I'm strongly against the hostile takeover that Gavin could potentially be planing.-Gavin could care less about TOR users and decentralization -Gavin wants to change the 10 min block target -Gavin doesn't believe proof of work has a place in BTC's long-term future -Gavin pointedly bypassed the normal proposal discussion channels in favor of smoky/spooky VC backrooms and Reddit demagoguery He's either gone crazy or been compromised. I don't need to speculate about the why or how to see that. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: jonald_fyookball on May 31, 2015, 06:23:25 PM The core developers, Gregory, Pieter, Luke and Matt are involved in a company Blockstream: https://www.blockstream.com/team/ . Obviously they want Blockstream to be successful. Please tell me how Gavin is biased and the others aren't. ::) There are two sides to (almost) each story, and there definitely are hidden agendas involved here. Luke is involved in Blockstream? I don't see him at your /team/ link. Also conspicuously absent is Garzik, who opposes Bitcoin-XT as well. Either way, the 'Only Blockstream conflicts of interest prevent 20mb block support' meme is idiotic. Case in point: Mircea. So fuck off with the defamatory accusations of "hidden agendas." While the other core devs' are not, Gavin's biases are uniquely disqualifying: -Gavin could care less about TOR users and decentralization -Gavin wants to change the 10 min block target -Gavin doesn't believe proof of work has a place in BTC's long-term future -Gavin pointedly bypassed the normal proposal discussion channels in favor of smoky/spooky VC backrooms and Reddit demagoguery He's either gone crazy or been compromised. I don't need to speculate about the why or how to see that. woah woah... where does Gavin say he doesn't believe in PoW? This I gotta see. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: GenTarkin on May 31, 2015, 07:20:59 PM despite all this hullaballoo .. no bitcoin price slide. apparently the market does not give a crap about Gavin You didnt notice the near $10 price drop since yesterday?!?!?! This is only the beginning. Once word of this coders bullshit goes public its gonna be mass panic. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Moebius327 on May 31, 2015, 07:47:58 PM despite all this hullaballoo .. no bitcoin price slide. apparently the market does not give a crap about Gavin You didnt notice the near $10 price drop since yesterday?!?!?! This is only the beginning. Once word of this coders bullshit goes public its gonna be mass panic. I pretty much agree with this statement. But I am also sure that Gavin has his reasons and maybe shit already hit the fans. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Lauda on May 31, 2015, 08:00:28 PM woah woah... where does Gavin say he doesn't believe in PoW? This I gotta see. Quote Gavin has said many times, in private, that he does not believe long term that the chain will be secured by proof-of-work. I'm sorry I don't secretly carry a cryptographic timestamping recording device on me, so I can't prove it in a formal way... if you really believe I'd just outright lie about that, I there isn't much more that I can offer. It's the second post by Maxwell here:https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/37vg8y/is_the_blockstream_company_the_reason_why_4_core/crqbd78 The question is do you believe Maxwell or Gavin? You didnt notice the near $10 price drop since yesterday?!?!?! This is only the beginning. Once word of this coders bullshit goes public its gonna be mass panic. Yesterday it was $236 now it is $231. That is not near $10. However I do agree and this just confirms Vod's words:Such a move will only weaken Bitcoin's credibility in the eyes of the public. :-\ Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: iCEBREAKER on May 31, 2015, 08:19:50 PM the 'Only Blockstream conflicts of interest prevent 20mb block support' meme is idiotic. Ad hominem anyone? You should express yourself in a better way if you want people to take you more seriously.Case in point: Mircea. So fuck off with the defamatory accusations of "hidden agendas." It is insult, not ad hom, to request you fuck off with cypher's/your/Reddit's frankly offensive '1MB support = Blockstream conspiracy' canard (because the existence of petertodd, Lukejr, and MP demonstrate it is false). Actual ad hom would (for example) be calling you oversensitive, or stupid for not knowing the difference between insult and ad hom. ;) Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: jonald_fyookball on May 31, 2015, 09:40:13 PM woah woah... where does Gavin say he doesn't believe in PoW? This I gotta see. Quote Gavin has said many times, in private, that he does not believe long term that the chain will be secured by proof-of-work. I'm sorry I don't secretly carry a cryptographic timestamping recording device on me, so I can't prove it in a formal way... if you really believe I'd just outright lie about that, I there isn't much more that I can offer. It's the second post by Maxwell here:https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/37vg8y/is_the_blockstream_company_the_reason_why_4_core/crqbd78 The question is do you believe Maxwell or Gavin? You didnt notice the near $10 price drop since yesterday?!?!?! This is only the beginning. Once word of this coders bullshit goes public its gonna be mass panic. Yesterday it was $236 now it is $231. That is not near $10. However I do agree and this just confirms Vod's words:Such a move will only weaken Bitcoin's credibility in the eyes of the public. :-\ Ahh I see. Well, this is a bit overblown IMO to say Gavin's been compromised or crazy. This is Greg relaying third hand what Gavin said in private "long term" about the security, and speculating about other consensus algorithms as many people do. It doesn't mean he's advocating get rid of PoW. I understand Greg's position...presumably, there may be better ways to deal with scalability than huge block size increases which could lead to centralization, but I also understand Gavin's position that we should do something now to avoid issues. I'm not too worried, I think the situation will work itself out as it always does. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: RealMalatesta on May 31, 2015, 11:42:31 PM In a situation like this, I would love to hear what the pools and producers of hardware have to say. And what about the Bitcoin Foundation? Would they kick out Gavin or not? Hm, I guess not, if they accept Brock-Neucoin in the board...
Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: tvbcof on June 01, 2015, 12:12:34 AM Isn't Hearn that dude who wanted to force proof of identity by having people verify their passports? Bitcoin >> Gavcoin >> Fedcoin Yes. I'm not a mind reader and cannot say what Hearn(dresen) does and does not favor, but he also spurred a quasi-private conversation about the implementation of 'red-listing' within the Bitcoin Foundation. I've never seen any indication that he wished for it to NOT occur. Early in my exposure to Bitcoin (GPU days) Hearn posited that monopolization of mining by large players could make un-favored transactions nearly impossible. 'There is no real difference between taking someone's money and keeping them from spending it for 20 years' was something close to his quote. I give the guy a huge amount of credit for his prescience about the way things were likely to centralize as mining technology evolved. The big sticking point here is that with the block size at 1MB it is still relatively practical for many people to be infrastructure providers (which is why I have not yet totally lost interest in and hope for Bitcoin.) It is worth note that Hearn's apparent conceptions of what Bitcoin should be like (that is, reasonably controllable by \???) are probably more palatable to the general population, and even to the majority of techies, than the alternative. Early adopters are a rarefied pool who were interested in Bitcoin for other reasons. Some philosophical, some intellectual, some political, some criminal, some speculative, etc. Most some combination. --- My favored graphical representation would be: Bitcoin >> Gavcoin >> Govincoin >> Govcoin Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: jonald_fyookball on June 01, 2015, 12:35:39 AM Hearn has blatantly admitted his authoritarian leanings on more than one occasion. I don't trust him.
Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: tvbcof on June 01, 2015, 12:54:18 AM Hearn has blatantly admitted his authoritarian leanings on more than one occasion. I don't trust him. Ironically, these sorts of admission are about the only reason I do 'trust' him insofar as I think it plausible that he simply has his personal feelings about what Bitcoin should be. I happen to think that most of his ideas are flawed, totalitarian, and that they suck is all. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: MicroGuy on June 01, 2015, 01:09:40 AM I think it's possible to make Bitcoin decentralized but it will take some sort of creative voting mechanism integrated into the client.
The best approach until that system is achieved is to go with the person that Satoshi hand-picked to succeed him. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: achow101 on June 01, 2015, 01:41:40 AM I think it's possible to make Bitcoin decentralized but it will take some sort of creative voting mechanism integrated into the client. What do you mean "Make bitcoin decentralized"? Bitcoin is already decentralized. Are you talking about the development? The development is somewhat centralized, but it is still decentralized since anyone can alter the source and try to commit to it. Not one developer has any final say about anything. Due to consensus, which is decentralized, no developer can force anyone to do anything.The best approach until that system is achieved is to go with the person that Satoshi hand-picked to succeed him. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: MicroGuy on June 01, 2015, 01:58:03 AM I think it's possible to make Bitcoin decentralized but it will take some sort of creative voting mechanism integrated into the client. What do you mean "Make bitcoin decentralized"? Bitcoin is already decentralized. Are you talking about the development? The development is somewhat centralized, but it is still decentralized since anyone can alter the source and try to commit to it. Not one developer has any final say about anything. Due to consensus, which is decentralized, no developer can force anyone to do anything.The best approach until that system is achieved is to go with the person that Satoshi hand-picked to succeed him. In my world, a purely decentralized currency would not have a central point of command. It would have the ability to exist autonomously. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: jonald_fyookball on June 01, 2015, 02:06:20 AM I think it's possible to make Bitcoin decentralized but it will take some sort of creative voting mechanism integrated into the client. What do you mean "Make bitcoin decentralized"? Bitcoin is already decentralized. Are you talking about the development? The development is somewhat centralized, but it is still decentralized since anyone can alter the source and try to commit to it. Not one developer has any final say about anything. Due to consensus, which is decentralized, no developer can force anyone to do anything.The best approach until that system is achieved is to go with the person that Satoshi hand-picked to succeed him. In my world, a purely decentralized currency would not have a central point of command. It would have the ability to exist autonomously. Did you read what knightdk just said? It doesn't have "a central point of command", as you put it. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: MicroGuy on June 01, 2015, 02:13:57 AM Did you read what knightdk just said? It doesn't have "a central point of command", as you put it. I think there is a central point of command, Gavin. But without an integrated voting system, Gavin is mandatory. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: hhanh00 on June 01, 2015, 02:23:39 AM Did you read what knightdk just said? It doesn't have "a central point of command", as you put it. The lack of central point of command is the reason why Gavin is 'threatening' to leave bitcoin core. He can't get agreement to change this code base but he can start or in this case join another one. If he gets enough miners to switch to his version, by virtue of the decentralization, it becomes the new standard. Obviously, he can choose to work on whatever he wants but in my opinion it should not be called Bitcoin anymore. It is a new coin since the change in the consensus rules were not approved by a majority of core developers. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: tvbcof on June 01, 2015, 02:41:01 AM I think it's good Gavin finally understood he needs to make an altcoin. I just hope he'll leave Bitcoin alone then. I hope he takes a lot of the so-called 'derp majority' with him. This conversation about block size has been going on for years (literally.) It seems to me that around a year and a half ago many of the 'whales' had concluded that the pipe-dream of Bitcoin being everything to everyone and buying every cup of coffee was retarded and Bitcoin was best used as a backing store upon which a myriad of market tuned solutions could ride. Several of the old-time economics folks were saying this (though not so much on this forum were most of them stopped wasting their time years ago.) If I were a whale and in coordination with a few others, and wanted one last good buying opportunity, I might be inclined to engineer a situation whereby a lot of FUD surrounding this fork was promulgated and reflected in the price. Then I would time things to buy with both hands. Whether Gavin's exponential growth fork happened or not would not matter much. If it did it would probably die off eventually as people realized how useless it was. The solid core would be the original Bitcoin doing the one thing it is actually suitable to do. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: QuestionAuthority on June 01, 2015, 02:57:18 AM What a baby. He's going to throw a tantrum and quit to make his own altcoin? Talk about centralization! Bitcoin is gavincoin already. Bitcoin is completely controlled by Gavin and this proves it.
Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: BitcoinEXpress on June 01, 2015, 03:06:42 AM What a baby. He's going to throw a tantrum and quit to make his own altcoin? Talk about centralization! Bitcoin is gavincoin already. Bitcoin is completely controlled by Gavin and this proves it. If Gavin goes, a substantial amount of the hash rate will follow him. Take notice that not a single major pool has said otherwise. All it will take is ONE major pool to jump, Bitcoin price will crash and the rest of the pools will switch. Once any two major pools switch, it's game over for "Legacy Satoshi" Gavin ~BCX~ Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: tvbcof on June 01, 2015, 03:30:10 AM What a baby. He's going to throw a tantrum and quit to make his own altcoin? Talk about centralization! Bitcoin is gavincoin already. Bitcoin is completely controlled by Gavin and this proves it. If Gavin goes, a substantial amount of the hash rate will follow him. Take notice that not a single major pool has said otherwise. All it will take is ONE major pool to jump, Bitcoin price will crash and the rest of the pools will switch. Once any two major pools switch, it's game over for "Legacy Satoshi" Gavin ~BCX~ I'm betting that you are wrong. What you are failing to recognize is that me and probably a lot of hodlers can sit things out for long periods of time. I'm perfectly happy to have 'legacy bitcoin' freeze for months while we let things shake out. I've not made a Bitcoin transaction for a year anyway so it won't effect me one iota as long as there is good transparency into the going's on. What I would really like to see happen is that Gavin's exponential growth fork is used as an opportunity for some significant improvements to better fill a niche that is important to me which is primarily broadly distributed infrastructure. A dream-come-true would be a scheme whereby POW consisted of a group of randomly shifting CPU-friendly algorithms in conjunction with reward for providing transmission infrastructure. I'll not hold my breath for that, but if we have to endure a work-stoppage to deal with superior resource attacks anyway I'd much rather re-start with some Achilles's heals of Bitcoin-1 patched up. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: BitcoinEXpress on June 01, 2015, 03:37:46 AM What a baby. He's going to throw a tantrum and quit to make his own altcoin? Talk about centralization! Bitcoin is gavincoin already. Bitcoin is completely controlled by Gavin and this proves it. If Gavin goes, a substantial amount of the hash rate will follow him. Take notice that not a single major pool has said otherwise. All it will take is ONE major pool to jump, Bitcoin price will crash and the rest of the pools will switch. Once any two major pools switch, it's game over for "Legacy Satoshi" Gavin ~BCX~ I'm betting that you are wrong. What you are failing to recognize is that me and probably a lot of hodlers can sit things out for long periods of time. I'm perfectly happy to have 'legacy bitcoin' freeze for months while we let things shake out. I've not made a Bitcoin transaction for a year anyway so it won't effect me one iota as long as there is good transparency into the going's on. What I would really like to see happen is that Gavin's exponential growth fork is used as an opportunity for some significant improvements to better fill a niche that is important to me which is primarily broadly distributed infrastructure. A dream-come-true would be a scheme whereby POW consisted of a group of randomly shifting CPU-friendly algorithms in conjunction with reward for providing transmission infrastructure. I'll not hold my breath for that, but if we have to endure a work-stoppage to deal with superior resource attacks anyway I'd much rather re-start with some Achilles's heals of Bitcoin-1 patched up. Apparently you don't understand the most basic principle of Bitcoin. Once a majority of the hashrate follows Gavin, it really doesn't matter how much you "Hodl". The size of the wallet has absolutely zero to do with "majority hash rate" rules. ~BCX~ Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: tvbcof on June 01, 2015, 03:50:23 AM What a baby. He's going to throw a tantrum and quit to make his own altcoin? Talk about centralization! Bitcoin is gavincoin already. Bitcoin is completely controlled by Gavin and this proves it. If Gavin goes, a substantial amount of the hash rate will follow him. Take notice that not a single major pool has said otherwise. All it will take is ONE major pool to jump, Bitcoin price will crash and the rest of the pools will switch. Once any two major pools switch, it's game over for "Legacy Satoshi" Gavin ~BCX~ I'm betting that you are wrong. What you are failing to recognize is that me and probably a lot of hodlers can sit things out for long periods of time. I'm perfectly happy to have 'legacy bitcoin' freeze for months while we let things shake out. I've not made a Bitcoin transaction for a year anyway so it won't effect me one iota as long as there is good transparency into the going's on. What I would really like to see happen is that Gavin's exponential growth fork is used as an opportunity for some significant improvements to better fill a niche that is important to me which is primarily broadly distributed infrastructure. A dream-come-true would be a scheme whereby POW consisted of a group of randomly shifting CPU-friendly algorithms in conjunction with reward for providing transmission infrastructure. I'll not hold my breath for that, but if we have to endure a work-stoppage to deal with superior resource attacks anyway I'd much rather re-start with some Achilles's heals of Bitcoin-1 patched up. Apparently you don't understand the most basic principle of Bitcoin. Once a majority of the hashrate follows Gavin, it really doesn't matter how much you "Hodl". The size of the wallet has absolutely zero to do with "majority hash rate" rules. ~BCX~ Apperently you understand the flexibility one has with code. If I'm sitting on a high value in Bitcoin and someone successfully attacks the blockchain, I'll patch my client with anything which solves the problem. Even if that means something radical such as ignore sha256 hashes after block {n} and switch to a different algo I'm absolutely going to do it rather than throw up my hands and walk away. The main requirement would be have enough of the right kind of like-minded fellow hodlers to form a workable system. That's where a group of proven and trusted developers comes in. Put another way, good luck attacking such a fork, and especially using data-centers full of sha256 asics to do so. This can also be read as read "Fuck your 'most basic principles of Bitcoin.'" Granted, this would no longer be Bitcoin, but neither is Gavincoin. I'll favor these two (and probably countless other forks which would happen simultaneously), based on whether they promise to provide enduring value. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: achow101 on June 01, 2015, 03:51:45 AM The miners aren't in control here. If the miners make poor choices, they might end up mining worthless tokens. The miners are in control. They choose which version to use, the new or the old. If enough of them use the new version, then the blockchain forks. If enough of them use the old version, then the blockchain doesn't fork. Either way, most miners will not be mining worthless tokens because the fork will only occur first with a soft-fork when the majority switch, and second with a hard-fork when the super-majority switch. If less than the majority switch, then all miners will still be mining valid blocks and the tokens are then not worthless.Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: BitcoinEXpress on June 01, 2015, 04:08:04 AM @tvbcof
Are you seriously trying to put forth that miners are not in control? The miners, be they pools or scores of independents are absolutely the ones that will decide. If enough ASICS in datacenters follow Gavin guess what, that becomes the new legit fork. Also this is not an "attack", it's an evolution just the way Satoshi intended, with majority ruling. Evolution is imminent, like it or not you will be part of Gavin and Hearn's fork. ~BCX~ Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: tvbcof on June 01, 2015, 04:15:09 AM @tvbcof Are you seriously trying to put forth that miners are not in control? The miners, be they pools or scores of independents are absolutely the ones that will decide. If enough ASICS in datacenters follow Gavin guess what, that becomes the new legit fork. Also this is not an "attack", it's an evolution just the way Satoshi intended, with majority ruling. Evolution is imminent, like it or not you will be part of Gavin and Hearn's fork. ~BCX~ I agree that miners are in control. If there is a shake-up then it might be a good opportunity to go back to the good old days when 'everyone is a miner.' Such a fork which achieved that (and protection against attack from ASIC farms in the process) might be a pretty interesting proposition. I fully expect Hearndresen's fork to be successful and am hoping for that and plan to 'be a part of it' so to speak. I plan to try to take advantage of a window of opportunity to dump that fork at a profit before people realize that it is just PayPal except less convenient and more useless. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: BitcoinEXpress on June 01, 2015, 04:20:39 AM @tvbcof Are you seriously trying to put forth that miners are not in control? The miners, be they pools or scores of independents are absolutely the ones that will decide. If enough ASICS in datacenters follow Gavin guess what, that becomes the new legit fork. Also this is not an "attack", it's an evolution just the way Satoshi intended, with majority ruling. Evolution is imminent, like it or not you will be part of Gavin and Hearn's fork. ~BCX~ I agree that miners are in control. If there is a shake-up then it might be a good opportunity to go back to the good old days when 'everyone is a miner.' Such a fork which achieved that (and protection against attack from ASIC farms in the process) might be a pretty interesting proposition. I fully expect Hearndresen's fork to be successful and am hoping for that and plan to 'be a part of it' so to speak. I plan to try to take advantage of a window of opportunity to dump that fork at a profit before people realize that it is just PayPal except less convenient and more useless. "Hearndresen's Fork" <--- Love it! Glad to see we agree and more power to turning a profit by selling at the right time. ~BCX~ Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: QuestionAuthority on June 01, 2015, 04:27:32 AM @tvbcof Are you seriously trying to put forth that miners are not in control? The miners, be they pools or scores of independents are absolutely the ones that will decide. If enough ASICS in datacenters follow Gavin guess what, that becomes the new legit fork. Also this is not an "attack", it's an evolution just the way Satoshi intended, with majority ruling. Evolution is imminent, like it or not you will be part of Gavin and Hearn's fork. ~BCX~ I agree that miners are in control. If there is a shake-up then it might be a good opportunity to go back to the good old days when 'everyone is a miner.' Such a fork which achieved that (and protection against attack from ASIC farms in the process) might be a pretty interesting proposition. I fully expect Hearndresen's fork to be successful and am hoping for that and plan to 'be a part of it' so to speak. I plan to try to take advantage of a window of opportunity to dump that fork at a profit before people realize that it is just PayPal except less convenient and more useless. That's a good idea to make some quick cash. We dump at just the right time and we could turn a tidy little profit off of this mess. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: tvbcof on June 01, 2015, 04:32:18 AM I agree that miners are in control. If there is a shake-up then it might be a good opportunity to go back to the good old days when 'everyone is a miner.' Such a fork which achieved that (and protection against attack from ASIC farms in the process) might be a pretty interesting proposition. I fully expect Hearndresen's fork to be successful and am hoping for that and plan to 'be a part of it' so to speak. I plan to try to take advantage of a window of opportunity to dump that fork at a profit before people realize that it is just PayPal except less convenient and more useless. That's a good idea to make some quick cash. We dump at just the right time and we could turn a tidy little profit off of this mess. The best part is that we can do so and still sit on value in an eventual worthwhile system. This is important because it provides incentive to cooperate in working toward one. Believe it or not I hypothesized about this back in 2011 when I was taking a position and it was a factor in deciding how much of a position to take. I'm sure I've spouted off about it from time to time in my (way to many) posts on this forum. edit: slight Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Lauda on June 01, 2015, 07:27:14 AM Ahh I see. Well, this is a bit overblown IMO to say Gavin's been compromised or crazy. Well it is a bit exaggerated as both Gavin and Maxwell overreacted to the situation. As I've previously stated rather than going with this rubbish plan of his of supporting XT because he has been rejected he should stick with Core. However the developers should have proposed better solutions and implement on time as Gavin was trying. It is better to prevent a problem rather to fix in once it occurs.This is Greg relaying third hand what Gavin said in private "long term" about the security, and speculating about other consensus algorithms as many people do. It doesn't mean he's advocating get rid of PoW. I understand Greg's position...presumably, there may be better ways to deal with scalability than huge block size increases which could lead to centralization, but I also understand Gavin's position that we should do something now to avoid issues. I'm not too worried, I think the situation will work itself out as it always does. I'm saddened to see so many comments saying that it is okay because we will probably be able to profit from this situation. The humanity's greed at its finest. :) Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: tvbcof on June 01, 2015, 08:01:24 AM ... I'm saddened to see so many comments saying that it is okay because we will probably be able to profit from this situation. Need a hankie? Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Cruxer on June 01, 2015, 08:13:48 AM It is a bad thing that one person currently has so much influence on the bitcoin perception Agree, there are many Bitcoin developers, Gavin is most known onehim leaving should not cause more than a small dip on the news, otherwise it has become to centralized around him. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: kelsey on June 01, 2015, 08:33:30 AM @tvbcof Are you seriously trying to put forth that miners are not in control? The miners, be they pools or scores of independents are absolutely the ones that will decide. If enough ASICS in datacenters follow Gavin guess what, that becomes the new legit fork. Also this is not an "attack", it's an evolution just the way Satoshi intended, with majority ruling. Evolution is imminent, like it or not you will be part of Gavin and Hearn's fork. ~BCX~ https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Economic_majority I am a proponent of this theory. Bitcoin, like everything else on this planet, is subject to the laws of supply and demand. If there is demand for legacy Bitcoin, we will have legacy Bitcoin. I can promise you that. yeah right lets not get carried away here and kid ourselves, its not like anyone wakes up in the morning and goes damn I can't get through my day without having some bitcoin. i'm affraid all cryptos including bitcoins main market driving force is; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_fool_theory Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: spartacusrex on June 01, 2015, 08:39:25 AM This situation reminds me of that submarine movie, with Denzel Washington and Gene Hackman.
Denzel says a nice speech about actions requiring both the captain and himself to agree, he does not agree, and furthermore.. blah blah etc etc.. Then they argue over launching some nuclear weapons. And Gene punches Denzel in the face. Hard. Consensus. It's a tough one. Makes Bitcoin's consensus-mechanism-achievements seem all the more impressive. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: fgordillo on June 01, 2015, 08:44:44 AM It is a bad thing that one person currently has so much influence on the bitcoin perception him leaving should not cause more than a small dip on the news, otherwise it has become to centralized around him. I fully agree with you, decentralization should be extended to individuals active in the ecosystem... Do you think that, given such a potential dangerous situation for the general Bitcoin project Satoshi should reappear to rebalance individuals' positions and their ascendency within the system? Although, if he didn't do this in 2013 why would he do it now, would his "appearance" show that the community isn't able to autoregulate itself thus its weaker than we all think? I'm curious to know if you have an opinion on this! Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Rampion on June 01, 2015, 08:52:55 AM I believe Gavin did many good things for Bitcoin, but I also believe some of the things he defends are not based on solid grounds - I also believe he did some shady, or at least dubious, things in the past. The fact that he sides with Mike Hearn is very telling, as Hearn always tried to kill bitcoin decentralization and fungibility trying to push awful proposals like blacklisting.
On the contrary, people like Maxwell, Wuille or Peter Todd always convince me with their reasons. I know for sure with whom I'm siding with - the latter group. I'd bet most miners will stand with them too. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Rampion on June 01, 2015, 08:55:34 AM BTW: I'm curious to know if Nick Szabo will comment on this matter. I guess we could assume is Satoshi's opinion ;)
Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Amph on June 01, 2015, 10:30:42 AM I believe Gavin did many good things for Bitcoin, but I also believe some of the things he defends are not based on solid grounds - I also believe he did some shady, or at least dubious, things in the past. The fact that he sides with Mike Hearn is very telling, as Hearn always tried to kill bitcoin decentralization and fungibility trying to push awful proposals like blacklisting. On the contrary, people like Maxwell, Wuille or Peter Todd always convince me with their reasons. I know for sure with whom I'm siding with - the latter group. I'd bet most miners will stand with them too. i find also hilarious that gavin was not doing this for the money, he said it many times, but then he is talking about cashing out before something bad happen the true is everyone is here to dump for fiat, none is actually going to care about the tech behind bitcoin, maybe only satoshi(but then he would not have mined 1M coins) p.s. i confused gavin with maxwell, nevermind my first sentence is wrong... Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: iCEBREAKER on June 01, 2015, 06:36:36 PM What a baby. He's going to throw a tantrum and quit to make his own altcoin? Talk about centralization! Bitcoin is gavincoin already. Bitcoin is completely controlled by Gavin and this proves it. If Gavin goes, a substantial amount of the hash rate will follow him. Take notice that not a single major pool has said otherwise. All it will take is ONE major pool to jump, Bitcoin price will crash and the rest of the pools will switch. Once any two major pools switch, it's game over for "Legacy Satoshi" Gavin Gavin has already lost this tug of war. His inability to accept a consensus he disagrees with has been exposed. His duplicity, in the form of spawning XT in spooky/smokey VC backroom deals with no warning on the normal channels, and managerial incompetence have been confirmed. The Gavinista coup is DOA. They just don't know it yet. No effective strategy or device exists to counter Mircea's 'GavinCoin Short' WMD: Quote http://qntra.net/2015/01/the-hard-fork-missile-crisis/ As the Giga-blockchain and main-blockchain continue to grow from the fork, those actively attacking the Giga-Blockchain will create many transactions that allow their main-blockchain coins to duplicate over to the Giga-blockchain while remaining safely on the main-blockchain. The transactions that succeed can then be used to acquire more main-blockchain coins upon which the cycle repeats. Eventually the blockchain with the most financial resources behind it will continue to grow at a faster pace, while the other slowly, and eventually stops growing altogether. It will be impossible for the Giga-chain to keep 1:1 parity with the main chain from which it forks, they contain different transaction, although some may overlap. Here a user broadcasts a transaction with inputs originating on the Main-chain, and is eventually included in a block on the Giga-chain, but not on the Main-chain. The coin is essentially duplicated onto both chains. Those siding with the wrong chain who end up accepting duplicated transactions from the other chain, such as a purchase from an exchange running on the losing blockchain, will lose those coins when the dust settles. No war is without casulties, the Great Blockchain Civil War will be no different. It is by Lord Satoshi's sublime design Bitcoin grants all possible advantages to its defenders, and places all possible economic and technical burdens on attackers. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: shmadz on June 01, 2015, 07:18:28 PM The miners aren't in control here. If the miners make poor choices, they might end up mining worthless tokens. The miners are in control. They choose which version to use, the new or the old. If enough of them use the new version, then the blockchain forks. If enough of them use the old version, then the blockchain doesn't fork. Either way, most miners will not be mining worthless tokens because the fork will only occur first with a soft-fork when the majority switch, and second with a hard-fork when the super-majority switch. If less than the majority switch, then all miners will still be mining valid blocks and the tokens are then not worthless.Umm, the fork will have nothing to do with the mining algorithm, correct? If so, can't we just merge-mine bitcoin and Gavincoin? Like we do already with namecoin? Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: RoadStress on June 01, 2015, 07:33:46 PM Your defamation campaign against me is going nowhere. Try harder. Oh wait, aren't you supposed to be spamming the hardware sub for Spamdoolies? I am doing my best! Hardware sub is hibernating. The fun is here where we have MP sock puppet accounts and scammers like you and cypherdoc. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: QuestionAuthority on June 01, 2015, 07:38:17 PM Your defamation campaign against me is going nowhere. Try harder. Oh wait, aren't you supposed to be spamming the hardware sub for Spamdoolies? I am doing my best! Hardware sub is hibernating. The fun is here where we have MP sock puppet accounts and scammers like you and cypherdoc. Woah, backup, cypherdoc is a scammer now? Gimme the juice! Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: wpalczynski on June 01, 2015, 08:38:58 PM I believe Gavin did many good things for Bitcoin, but I also believe some of the things he defends are not based on solid grounds - I also believe he did some shady, or at least dubious, things in the past. The fact that he sides with Mike Hearn is very telling, as Hearn always tried to kill bitcoin decentralization and fungibility trying to push awful proposals like blacklisting. On the contrary, people like Maxwell, Wuille or Peter Todd always convince me with their reasons. I know for sure with whom I'm siding with - the latter group. I'd bet most miners will stand with them too. i find also hilarious that gavin was not doing this for the money, he said it many times, but then he is talking about cashing out before something bad happen the true is everyone is here to dump for fiat, none is actually going to care about the tech behind bitcoin, maybe only satoshi(but then he would not have mined 1M coins) p.s. i confused gavin with maxwell, nevermind my first sentence is wrong... He needed to keep mining in order to keep the network alive until it caught on. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: not altcoin hitler on June 02, 2015, 03:24:12 AM The miners aren't in control here. If the miners make poor choices, they might end up mining worthless tokens. The miners are in control. They choose which version to use, the new or the old. If enough of them use the new version, then the blockchain forks. If enough of them use the old version, then the blockchain doesn't fork. Either way, most miners will not be mining worthless tokens because the fork will only occur first with a soft-fork when the majority switch, and second with a hard-fork when the super-majority switch. If less than the majority switch, then all miners will still be mining valid blocks and the tokens are then not worthless.Umm, the fork will have nothing to do with the mining algorithm, correct? If so, can't we just merge-mine bitcoin and Gavincoin? Like we do already with namecoin? Just buy "Bitbeans", it's POS too! Gavin should just become the dev of Bitbeans (if he isn't already) and GTFO already. I doubt pools will even add his shitcoin for merge mining, honestly. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: HCLivess on June 02, 2015, 08:28:06 AM lets just choose the best altcoin and be done with it
Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: kennyP on June 02, 2015, 08:34:22 AM lets just choose the best altcoin and be done with it NXT, or if you're a PoW devotee, a NXT monetary system currency with minting (i.e.PoW) NXT is the answer to all your problems guys Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Rampion on June 02, 2015, 08:34:29 AM What is quite unexplainable is why Gavin is proposing such an abrupt change: going directly to 20MB blocks. It would be much more rational to have a "slow" approach, ie increasing the block size to 2MB, then to 4MB, then to 8MB and so forth. I'm 100% sure consensus will be much easier to reach in that scenario. 2MB will double the current capacity with no difference at all in overhead for miners and full nodes.
Why in the earth is Gavin proposing such a dramatic change which could have deep implications instead of taking a cautious, slow and progressive approach? Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: kano on June 02, 2015, 10:23:24 AM I believe Gavin did many good things for Bitcoin, but I also believe some of the things he defends are not based on solid grounds - I also believe he did some shady, or at least dubious, things in the past. The fact that he sides with Mike Hearn is very telling, as Hearn always tried to kill bitcoin decentralization and fungibility trying to push awful proposals like blacklisting. Current blacklisting in effect that I know of is eligius pool and luke-jr pushing his blacklisting bitcoin on the gentoo world where recently anyone who compiled the default gentoo version of bitcoin got blacklisting of luke-jr's choice patched into the code by default.On the contrary, people like Maxwell, Wuille or Peter Todd always convince me with their reasons. I know for sure with whom I'm siding with - the latter group. I'd bet most miners will stand with them too. gmaxwell backs luke-jr in any argument I've had with gmaxwell, no matter what the circumstances, so that sorta makes the "On the contrary" team sound worse since it's already in effect :P Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Amph on June 02, 2015, 10:37:41 AM I believe Gavin did many good things for Bitcoin, but I also believe some of the things he defends are not based on solid grounds - I also believe he did some shady, or at least dubious, things in the past. The fact that he sides with Mike Hearn is very telling, as Hearn always tried to kill bitcoin decentralization and fungibility trying to push awful proposals like blacklisting. On the contrary, people like Maxwell, Wuille or Peter Todd always convince me with their reasons. I know for sure with whom I'm siding with - the latter group. I'd bet most miners will stand with them too. i find also hilarious that gavin was not doing this for the money, he said it many times, but then he is talking about cashing out before something bad happen the true is everyone is here to dump for fiat, none is actually going to care about the tech behind bitcoin, maybe only satoshi(but then he would not have mined 1M coins) p.s. i confused gavin with maxwell, nevermind my first sentence is wrong... He needed to keep mining in order to keep the network alive until it caught on. but it was really necessary to keep the network alive at that time? when he was the only one using it? what's the point? maybe he should have set the diff at 10 or even 100(instead of 1), at least he would not have mined so many coins, while maintaining the livelihood of the network Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: jonald_fyookball on June 02, 2015, 02:24:08 PM What is quite unexplainable is why Gavin is proposing such an abrupt change: going directly to 20MB blocks. It would be much more rational to have a "slow" approach, ie increasing the block size to 2MB, then to 4MB, then to 8MB and so forth. I'm 100% sure consensus will be much easier to reach in that scenario. 2MB will double the current capacity with no difference at all in overhead for miners and full nodes. Why in the earth is Gavin proposing such a dramatic change which could have deep implications instead of taking a cautious, slow and progressive approach? You could argue that. You could also argue that we don't want to keep bandaiding this over and over. If you're gonna use a blocksize increase as a bandaid, do it once so that its big enough we have plenty of time to find a better solution before asking for another fork. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: wpalczynski on June 02, 2015, 02:31:23 PM I believe Gavin did many good things for Bitcoin, but I also believe some of the things he defends are not based on solid grounds - I also believe he did some shady, or at least dubious, things in the past. The fact that he sides with Mike Hearn is very telling, as Hearn always tried to kill bitcoin decentralization and fungibility trying to push awful proposals like blacklisting. On the contrary, people like Maxwell, Wuille or Peter Todd always convince me with their reasons. I know for sure with whom I'm siding with - the latter group. I'd bet most miners will stand with them too. i find also hilarious that gavin was not doing this for the money, he said it many times, but then he is talking about cashing out before something bad happen the true is everyone is here to dump for fiat, none is actually going to care about the tech behind bitcoin, maybe only satoshi(but then he would not have mined 1M coins) p.s. i confused gavin with maxwell, nevermind my first sentence is wrong... He needed to keep mining in order to keep the network alive until it caught on. but it was really necessary to keep the network alive at that time? when he was the only one using it? what's the point? maybe he should have set the diff at 10 or even 100(instead of 1), at least he would not have mined so many coins, while maintaining the livelihood of the network I don't think he would have contemplated what that mil coins means today. Just imagine how miniscule the chance of BTC becoming what it has become today was back then. Just a basement experiment. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: oblivi on June 02, 2015, 05:02:30 PM lets just choose the best altcoin and be done with it NXT, or if you're a PoW devotee, a NXT monetary system currency with minting (i.e.PoW) NXT is the answer to all your problems guys It actually isn't. A lot of people don't like proof of stake for several reasons. The solution is simply adopting whatever fork people end up using at the end in consensus. Where is the problem? Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Klestin on June 02, 2015, 05:42:54 PM This could be catastrophic for bitcoin. Do you or any of the others who've posted similar messages have any idea what Bitcoin-Xt is? Do you realize it's just another version of the Bitcoin core code? Do you realize that it is already running, and processing transactions alongside Bitcoin Core? Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Rampion on June 02, 2015, 05:48:11 PM What is quite unexplainable is why Gavin is proposing such an abrupt change: going directly to 20MB blocks. It would be much more rational to have a "slow" approach, ie increasing the block size to 2MB, then to 4MB, then to 8MB and so forth. I'm 100% sure consensus will be much easier to reach in that scenario. 2MB will double the current capacity with no difference at all in overhead for miners and full nodes. Why in the earth is Gavin proposing such a dramatic change which could have deep implications instead of taking a cautious, slow and progressive approach? You could argue that. You could also argue that we don't want to keep bandaiding this over and over. If you're gonna use a blocksize increase as a bandaid, do it once so that its big enough we have plenty of time to find a better solution before asking for another fork. Please go read the bitcoin-dev mailing list. Most technical guys are against such an abrupt change because it can lead to centralization pretty quickly. The conflict of interest thing is pure BS. Many pools, especially the chinese ones which have difficulty to access 100Mbps connections behind the great firwall are very worried about their orphan rate skyrocketing and thus are against such an abrupt change, it's all on the bitcoin-dev mailing for everybody to see. The fact is that there are many questions left unanswered, there's a very real centralization threat, but still most agree that they would support a more gradual change, even to 5MB or 8MB. That is x5 and x8 the current capacity, why in the hell are Gavin & Hearn (who has a track record of pushing for many very nefarious features, see blacklisting (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=333824.0) for example) pushing for a x20 increase in block size? Why not going for a gradual approach? The "we don't want bandaiding this over and over" is pure BS. I think the risk of centralization is too high to be reckless, it is much better to bandaid a couple of times than to just kill bitcoin by making it centralized. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: jonald_fyookball on June 02, 2015, 05:57:45 PM Increasing the capacity to 20x doesn't mean the blocks are going to
be that big right away. To me, 20mb feels right but that's just one man's opinion. Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: achow101 on June 02, 2015, 07:33:05 PM This could be catastrophic for bitcoin. Do you or any of the others who've posted similar messages have any idea what Bitcoin-Xt is? Do you realize it's just another version of the Bitcoin core code? Do you realize that it is already running, and processing transactions alongside Bitcoin Core? Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: Fabrizio89 on June 02, 2015, 07:37:07 PM Narcisistic devs are killing everything these days
Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: iCEBREAKER on June 02, 2015, 11:33:27 PM BTW: I'm curious to know if Nick Szabo will comment on this matter. I guess we could assume is Satoshi's opinion ;) He already tweeted, telling us to calm down and stop exaggerating. That hasn't stopped the Gavinistas from setting their hair on fire and screaming "ZOMG BITCOIN IS LITERALLY GOING TO DIE REALLY REALLY SOON IF WE DON'T ALL PANIC RIGHT NOW!!!11!!." Title: Re: Gavin Threatens to Quit Bitcoin Development and Join Hearn's Fork Post by: MicroGuy on June 02, 2015, 11:53:05 PM I think this thread has pretty much run its course. It's probably a good time to close it now! :)
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