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 China Continues to Tear Down Crosses  From Zhejiang's Churches
2015-07-06  

http://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/cross-12222014171202.html/china-dingqiao-church-cross-dec-2014-crop.jpg/image

Authorities tear down a cross from a Protestant church in Hangzhou's Dingqiao township, Dec. 19, 2014.
Photo courtesy of China Aid






Authorities in the eastern Chinese province of Zhejiang claimed new casualties in a demolition program targeting Protestant Christian churches in the region, which is home to "China's Jerusalem," in recent weeks, local residents said.

Officials sent in a demolition gang on July 2 to pull down a cross on a church in Zhejiang's Weiling county, a church member told RFA.

"The cross on our church was ripped down today, and so many of our church members were in floods of tears over it," the church member said.

The Weiling church was built several decades ago, long before the more recent boom in Protestant Christianity began to ring alarm bells with the ruling Chinese Communist Party, officially an atheist organization.

"They were unable to speak reasonably with us, or say why they were taking down our cross," the church member said.

"They are officials, and we are just the people, and so we have no right to speak."



Foreign ideas feared

China has an army of officials whose job is to watch over faith-based activities, which have spread rapidly in recent decades amid sweeping economic and social change, sparking official fears that foreign ideas are increasingly gaining traction among the country's 1.3 billion population.

Party officials are put in charge of Catholics, Buddhists, Taoists, Muslims, and Protestants. Judaism isn't recognized, and worship in non-recognized temples, churches, or mosques is against the law.

According to the church member, the Weiling church dates back to an era before communist rule began in 1949, and is no stranger to political persecution, having been targeted during the political turmoil of the Mao-era.

"They shut us down for a stretch during the Cultural Revolution [1966-1976]," the church member said. "Then we started up again, and we were allowed to hold meetings."

"But now they have taken our cross away."

Some 100 members of the congregation had gathered during the demolition process, the church member said.

"Everyone just watched. We didn't dare to comment, because if we'd spoken out of line, they would have detained us," the church member added.

"We are Christians, so the cross is our symbol. I feel terrible."

Meanwhile, lawyers acting for a Christian congregation in Zhejiang's Jinhua city penned a public letter protesting at "illegal actions" by the municipal government.

"We felt that the government's intention was to attack this church, gradually stepping up the pressure on it, step by step," letter signatory and lawyer Chen Jianggang told RFA in a recent interview.

"We want to use the law to protect this church's cross, so we have issued an open letter ... explaining that we want them to protect this cross according to law," Chen said.



'China's Jerusalem'

In recent months, authorities in the eastern city of Wenzhou have carried out an ongoing demolition program targeting large and highly visible churches and crosses in the city, which is home to an estimated one million Chinese Christians.

Party leaders in the city, dubbed "China's Jerusalem," last week threatened to expel members who put religious beliefs ahead of ideology in a "rectification" campaign.

But Chen said the campaign is illegal, and a form of religious persecution.

Demolitions have also been reported by Christian churches in Hangzhou and Taizhou cities in recent weeks, local sources said.

In May, the Chinese Communist Party issued a warning that any of its members who harbor religious beliefs or take part in religious activities could become the targets of its powerful disciplinary arm.

The newsletter of the party's Central Commission for Discipline Inspection (CCDI) said in an opinion piece that the problem of religious believers within party ranks is "attracting serious concern."

China's Communist Party members number 86.7 million, some six percent of the country's population, second only to the 88 million claimed by India's Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), according to figures released in 2014.

According to the article, party members don't enjoy any right to religious freedom, a right which many religious believers complain is routinely violated by officials across the country.

The CCDI article came after President Xi Jinping warned a high-level ideological conference last week that the development of religion in China should be "independent of foreign influence."

"Christian congregations have expanded since churches began reopening after the Cultural Revolution," the party-backed Global Times newspaper said in a recent commentary.

"Religion can be easily used by hostile external forces, especially among separatists in Tibet and Xinjiang autonomous regions, to infiltrate Chinese society, and that may impact the stability of the country," the paper paraphrased Xi as saying.

Reported by Yang Fan for RFA's Mandarin Service. Translated and written in English by Luisetta Mudie.

Sadly a lot of people here will call this situation "progress". I am not one of them.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1105723.0


more info here

Authorities tear down a cross from a Protestant church in Lishui's Longquan township, April. 23. 2015.

Photo： courtesy of China Aid

http://www.rfa.org/mandarin/yataibaodao/shehui/yf1-07022015103323.html/cm0423-qn1p1.jpg/image

I told you no one would care. Sad isn't it, but as long as they can afford their brand new iphone or nexus 5 from china, it will be the case.

And there are people that keep saying that Communism doesn't exist.

No government has the right to take away anyone's religion. If one is preaching it without harming others, what's the big deal? Communism is clearly outshining this horrendous act. People need to speak up for this.

pro

Typical american pro-imperialistic answer.

China is one of the few countries, which has remained outside the grasp of the Abrahamic religions. I would like that to continue. Why the Christians want to convert everyone in the world to their religion? IMO, the Chinese will be much better, if they believe in Atheism / Buddhism / Confucianism / Folk religion. They don't need these Business-minded religions such as Islam and Christianity.

Religion : human races = Economy : currencies

If you don't understand religion don't blame it: study it!


The Emperor: a man that cannot handle faith.

on July 10, only one day 4 churches in Hangzhou  crosses were teared down.

http://www.rfa.org/mandarin/yataibaodao/shehui/yf3-07102015121851.html/1.JPG/image

Would you mind translating that please? It is not polite to say something that the other person cannot understand.

Thank You.

It requires a lot of money to have the power to offend so clearly.

Hope you have it.

"Thank You".

This is terribly sad.

I was watching something last night that talked about what the Jewish people went through before the holocaust.

Jewish people were being persecuted, forced to identify themselves with the star, having their windows broken, and everything, that led up to the end. People should be voicing their opposition to these things now, before things get worse. Of course less and less people care these days.

Which is crap, because they care about the freedoms they want, they just don't care about the freedoms others should be allowed to have, such as the freedom to have their church not face desecration.

A few articles:

"Although the government has cited zoning rules in its fight against the churches, a provincial policy paper suggests that there may be other reasons, advising officials to use the zoning language in an effort to avoid international scrutiny." China Removes Crosses From Two More Churches in Crackdown (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/world/asia/china-moves-against-2-churches-in-campaign-against-christianity.html)

"A draft of rules on religious structures released by government agencies this week says the crosses should be wholly affixed to a building facade and be no more than one-tenth of the facade's height. The symbol also must fit with the facade and the surroundings, the proposal says. The draft does not provide the rationale for the proposal."
After Removing 400 Crosses, China Proposes Where Churches Can Put Them Instead (http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2015/may/after-removing-400-crosses-china-proposes-zhejiang-wenzhou.html)

money is only a medium, i am sorry your thought in wrong way

thank you for your additional information!

it is reported that more than 1100 crosses are teared down from churches in mainland china >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(  

That thought let me understood why you are crying in this post.

You need to fight faith every time you get up, the more you have faith the more you lose time, time is money... I'll let you end the equation.

Atheism is a sin in the Bible: atheist are playing out of rules => if you play out of rules you are loosing time, if you are loosing time you are loosing money, if you listen to atheist you are loosing money.

If you say something like:

You are just playing out of the rules of secularity => if you play out of the rules you are loosing time, if you are losing time you are loosing money, if you listen to opposite thouths you are loosing money.

Sorry, I cannot make it more clear as we are not on the same side.

Kind regards.

from economy point of view it goes without saying that time is money.

BUT why someone rich someone poor?  Everyone has 24 hours, it is great fair.

The choice or we can say the opportunity cost each one takes is different.

Someone decided to set up berlin wall, then there must be someone going to break it up.

For the cross teardown case, if you think government has the right to tear it down, then government also has the right to excise your organ.

You are losing time arguing with them: you are losing money... that's your choice, I don't stand with you.

Take care.

 i don't care money，  i am dead heart

If you are a dead heart why you care about Christianism?!? Do you feel guilty for your sins?!?

 i feel guilty answering your silly question, but i am happy this thread always up  by your nonsense

Quoting myself:

Thank You.

actually your argument not bad, i feed back my opinions already, but i have really no interest on your money theory.  yes, i am Christian. but this is not the main reason i care about the crosses teardown case in china, as you mention twice we are not on the same side, black and white can not be mixed, thank you whatever.

Up

update

1700 churches in Zhejiang province including 500 Roman Catholic churches up to middle of July crosses are to be teared down.

China will continue since no one dares to stop them . everyone cares more about a shit country in the Mediterranean doing what was expected.

I deeply prefer the pro american imperialism view of

At least he's only hurting the faith in my Country, you are suggesting to bomb them and carry on!

I must give a A to HigsonPP for his DEEPLY libertarian views.

Thank You HigsonPP for having illuminated us.

Sincerely Thank You!

Amen.

update

http://www.rfa.org/mandarin/yataibaodao/shehui/yf2-07152015101247.html/m0715-yf2p1.jpg/@@images/17afdfb7-c597-45ef-9a19-7d9ca7d6e501.jpeg

I don't see what the surprise is? China is a totalitarian government that demands all loyalty be directed at the state. It has not been a free place for like 70 years.   

MAO established PRC in 1949, he died in 1976.

Even in his dictatorship between 1949-1976, no such case happened.  BUT now is 2015 !!

My understanding is that there is slightly more religious freedom than in the past 30 or so years, but I don't know from first hand experience. Perhaps the phenomena of the "christian rich" is being seen as a threat?

maybe, many so called middle class chinese are Christian but the main reason it should be that the chinese Communist party has great fear on the rapidly growing amount Christian in China, Zhejiang province is the no.1 among 30 provinces in China.

http://www.rfa.org/mandarin/yataibaodao/shehui/yf1-07172015100702.html/m0717-yf2p.jpg/image


UPDATE

Wenzhou Bishop and Pastors protest





http://boxun.com/news/images/2015/07/201507242318china1.jpg

http://boxun.com/news/images/2015/07/201507242318china2.jpg

http://boxun.com/news/images/2015/07/201507242318china3.jpg

http://boxun.com/news/images/2015/07/201507242318china4.jpg

Good for them. But I don't see it ending well.

Why the fuck would anybody stop them from building and razing whatever Chinese want on their own soil? Who do you think you are? Captain America? George Bush? Bin Ladin?

justice without border!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

update

Christians from Wenzhou Zhejiang province made many small crosses in protest at cross-teardown



http://www.rfa.org/mandarin/yataibaodao/shehui/yf2-07262015105229.html/p1.JPG/@@images/188c2f10-2f91-4bca-b0f8-a7d2d6c97ac4.jpeg

hunger strike now is running among 260 chinese churches nationwide in China big cities

Good for them. :)

Hope the protests stay safe.

'Chanting Monks' Deployed in Standoff Over Cross Demolition in China’s Zhejiang
2015-07-27 

http://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/china-churches-07272015103543.html/china-churches-07272015.jpg/@@images/d1461768-e2ff-494e-85b6-b8bb16942bb9.jpeg
Cross still in place on the Jinjia'er church in Huzhou, Zhejiang Province, July 27, 2015.
 Photo courtesy of a church member.



Officials in China’s eastern province of Zhejiang sent in monks to burn incense and chant Buddhist scriptures as a “provocation” as Christian believers faced off with a government-backed demolition gang intent on removing a large cross from the roof of their church, church members told RFA on Monday.

The monks came in and chanted prayers, burning incense at the door of the Jinjia’er church in Zhejiang’s Huzhou city, where believers had been staging a sit-in in the hope of blocking access by the demolition gang for several days, a church follower who asked not to be named told RFA.

“We are Protestant Christians, so by sending monks to chant sutras they were trying to get us riled up,” the Jinjia’er congregant said. “They blocked the main door, and they were detaining anyone who got physical with them on public order charges.”

“They were trying to make us angry so that we would retaliate against them. They think that anyone who opposes the government is a traitor, or someone trying to overturn the Communist Party,” he said.

“Anyone who opposes them risks being stuck with this label.”

The authorities had also moved quickly to delete any social media posts about the standoff on China’s Twitter-like platforms, and from social messaging app WeChat, he said, adding that the cross was eventually demolished by the government on Sunday.

The demolition came as the authorities target churches in Zhejiang, and Wenzhou city, which has been dubbed “China’s Jerusalem” owing to its large proportion of Protestant believers.



Tearful congregation sings

The provincial government has kept up the "Three Rectifications and One Demolition" campaign, which claims to target all illegal structures, for several months now, rights groups say.

Local officials are required to take action to "demolish illegal structures that violate laws and regulations, occupy farmland, affect public safety and major construction, seriously affect urban and rural planning, and those that are located on both sides of main lines of transportation," according to guidelines published last year on the provincial government’s website.

In Wenzhou, a member of the Yuyangtaitou church in Wenzhou’s Pingyang county said their church’s cross had also been demolished by the authorities on Monday.

Video footage shot by congregants and seen by RFA showed government officials lowering the cross gradually to the ground using ropes, watched by a tearful congregation singing hymns.

“The cross is gone; they took it down this morning,” the Yuyangtaitou church member said on Monday. “Why did they demolish the cross for no reason? This was pointless. It’s not like it was getting in the way of anything.”

“This church has been in our village for several decades; I knew it while I was growing up.”

Local media reports said the Pingyang county government had announced that all visible crosses in the county would be removed by Aug. 5.

Zhejiang authorities are also taking draconian steps to manage online references to the cross demolition campaign.

Protestant believer Zheng Xianghuang said he had received a visit from Zhejiang state security police at his home the southwestern province of Sichuan after he posted a photo of a cross demolition on a social media site.

“A few hours after I posted it to my microblog account it had been retweeted more than 1,000 times, and had been viewed tens of thousands of times,” Zheng told RFA on Monday. “Maybe it touched on somebody’s vested interests … or perhaps it prompted some kind of campaign, because they came here … all the way from Pingyang county.”



Police plant malware

He said that, before they left, police admitted having placed surveillance malware on his computer.

“My QQ [chatroom account], my WeChat and my microblog accounts are all being monitored,” Zheng said. “When the police were here, they clearly indicated that the [malware] had been installed by them.”

Meanwhile, Zhejiang-based Protestant pastor Zhang Chongzhu said the demolition program shows no sign of abating.

“As well as the cross demolitions, the government is carrying out ideological work with all parties,” Zhang said. “It’s not just the crosses that they’re targeting.”

“The government wants to turn the Protestant church into a truly Chinese institution, which is to say that it wants it to become a tool of the party.”

“They have already begun this work of reclamation in the bigger churches; those that have more than 100 or 200 members,” he said.

President Xi Jinping warned Communist Party ideologues earlier this year that the development of religion in China, which is already closely controlled by an army of religious affairs officials, should be "independent of foreign influence."

Citing the rapid expansion in Christian believers after churches began to re-open in the wake of the political turmoil of the Cultural Revolution (1966-1976), Xi has described religion is a tool that can easily be used "by hostile foreign forces."

Reported by Yang Fan for RFA’s Mandarin Service, and by Wen Yuqing for the Cantonese Service. Translated and written in English by Luisetta Mudie.

RT @wenyunchao 温州市平阳水头青街教会的信众兰天恩保护十字架遭当地政府人员疯狂殴打重伤病危，目前人在温州医学院附属第一医院。


VIDEO:
https://mobile.twitter.com/wenyunchao/status/626092034357657600


chinese Christians were assaulted by local government staff of Wenzhou, among them  LAN Tianci was injured seriously,  now in hospital

according to the information from twitter, police found out the Christian who uploaded this photo and forced him to figure out where these small red crosses were produced.

And yet, the law as I saw it earlier, stated that the crosses couldn't be very large, these don't look like they should be breaking any rules.

in China only Communist government is the rule, it is obviously not the size of cross, it is only an excuse.  so many churches exist many years...the government is afraid of the growing influence from chinese Christian

That's a statement and, with that, you are making me understand the fight that is happening in China between atheism and Religion.

"Atheism is a cancer and need to be exterminated".
- Deut 5:4 21

no, it is another topic,  this thread is about religious freedom in China!

This thread is not about Freedom, is about the fight that is happening in China between atheism and Religion.

You posted everything as if China was removing rights to Christians. This is not about Freedom this is about your Freedom to say whatever it takes to speak against your Government.

You are not hungry about your Government you are hungry about the fight that you are not part of and you want to be part of that fight.

The fight between atheism and Religion.


This is fun, but don't say the same thing with the intent of saying something different.


Thanks.

the problem between atheism and Religion normally among individuals, that is philosophical problem.

religious freedom problem such as  this thread  talking about especially involving autocratic government is about human right, that is political problem.

so simple, no more explanation.

other nonsense i have no time to feed back, sorry

China Detains Christian Pastors For Resistance to Cross Demolitions
2015-07-29


http://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/china-crosses-07292015101743.html/china-wenzhou-07292015.jpg/@@images/a8e732b8-e6cd-46df-90c5-b0ad1621f01f.jpeg
A Christian church in Oubei, outside the city of Wenzhou that was demolished by Chinese authorities, April 30, 2014.
 AFP


Authorities in the eastern Chinese province of Zhejiang are pressing ahead with a demolition campaign targeting “illegal” Christian crosses amid growing resistance from local believers.

Government-backed demolition gangs have taken down crosses from the tops of churches in provincial capital Wenzhou, Taizhou, Huzhou and Jinhua cities in recent days, in a slew of demolitions billed in state media as a building safety campaign.

A total of 16 believers and pastors were taken away by police following scuffles with a cross demolition gang last week, and eight have yet to be released, a lawyer for the church members told RFA on Wednesday.

“They were detained because they refused to allow the cross to be taken down, and so they arrested them,” lawyer Pang Kun said, adding that only seven of the detainees were known to be under criminal detention, while the status of the eighth had yet to be confirmed.

“They are all being held on suspicion of ‘running an illegal business,’ ‘obstructing official duty,’ and ‘running secret accounting procedures,’ random stuff like that,” Pang said.

“This is about the fact that they were opposed to the removal of the cross from their church, and this is a form of revenge against them,” he said. “They want to send any church that doesn’t comply into disarray.”

“This is an unreasonable act of revenge, which seriously violates the rights of these believers to freedom of religious belief,” Pang added. “It is also against the law.”



Pastors hauled away

Meanwhile, Christians in Wenzhou said that the authorities had detained eight local Protestant pastors and preachers, none of whom had been released by Wednesday evening local time.

“They were called in for a chat and I don’t think they’ve come out since, because I have asked about them,” a pastor who declined to be named said. “It is probably something to do with the crosses.”

According to a church member in Wenzhou’s Pingyang county, where a large cross was removed from a local church last week, pastor Zhang Chongyang was also taken away by police on Tuesday evening.

“He was called in for questioning by police, and he … is now under formal summons,” the church member said.

Church members in Zhejiang’s Cannon county said their pastor Liang Pu was among those hauled in for questioning.

And a pastor in Yuyaocheng village said local Protestant church members have tried to adopt civil disobedience principles in the face of the cross demolition campaign.

“As a pastor, I believe that we should stand firm but ensure no blood is shed,” the pastor said. “We need more people power, to run a non-violent resistance campaign to the bitter end.”

In Pingyang county’s Qihu church, some congregants were sent to hospital after a government-backed gang smashed down the church doors, sending them flying to the floor, before dragging them out of the church and beating them unconscious.

“He is still undergoing medical tests,” the wife of injured Qihu church member Lan Tiansi told RFA from the hospital. “The doctor wants to talk to me; I’ll speak to you later.”



'Safety and beauty'

According to the Global Times newspaper, which has close ties to the ruling Chinese Communist Party, Zhejiang authorities said they are merely “relocating” the crosses from the roofs of churches to the interior, “for the sake of safety and beauty,” it quoted local religious affairs officials as saying.

The removal is part of a three-year urbanisation and beautification campaign, which orders local governments to "revise" old neighborhoods, old industrial sites and urban villages and demolish illegal structures by 2015, it said.

A Pingyang county resident who declined to be named said the government’s cross demolition program is seen as a direct attack on the region’s Christians, however.

“It’s not as simple as pulling down a cross; it’s an attack on our beliefs, and we must rise up to resist it,” the man said. “Our resistance will be non-violent, however, because we are opposed to any form of violence.”

“The government does use violence, frequently. We believers are very angry, but we have to forgive them, right?”

Meanwhile, photos of Christians in Wenzhou, known as “China’s Jerusalem” because of the high proportion of believers, were widely retweeted on social media sites this week as they got together to make wooden crosses as part of the civil disobedience campaign.

Hong Kong media reported that the Christians plan to display the roughly-made and red-painted crosses all across the province as a form of protest against the authorities’ demolition program.

China is home to an estimated 23 million members of the government-backed Three-Self Patriotic Movement, as well as an unknown number of worshipers in unofficial “house churches.”

Reported by Hai Nan for RFA’s Cantonese Service, and by Yang Fan for the Mandarin Service. Translated and written in English by Luisetta Mudie.

up >:( >:( >:(

You mean DOWN.

Do you really think that this story will go to end any sooner?

Is better if you just post new pictures: the "up" posts doesn't give any news. This story will end only when every last Christian church in your territory will be tear down.


Just post when you have new pictures for it and save some keyboard pushing.


Thanks.

what you wrote made the thread up, many thanks

new picture, no problem

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CKu3F0VUMAA_qlL.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CKu3F0RUcAAd7fK.jpg

http://boxun.com/news/gb/china/2015/08/201508020646.shtml#.Vb6TpyLenP4


update photo & video

RT ‏@milpitas95035 : 意大利的华人教会，估计是温州人教会，第一次站出来抗议，走在美国华人教会的前头了。

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CMj9fxMUcAADvsB.jpg


well done !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


chinese christians in Italy protest

Zhejiang’s Christians Are Resisting a Campaign Against Church Crosses

By Dan Southerland

2015-08-11 

http://www.rfa.org/english/commentaries/east-asia-beat/china-churches-08112015122240.html/china-wenzhou-08102015.jpg/@@images/56858c9f-aec0-4919-b1d7-ac0b78015966.jpeg
Hundreds of churchgoers wearing tee shirts vowing to "safeguard religious dignity" protest against the forced removal of crosses from churches in Wenzhou, Aug. 10, 2015.
 Photo courtesy of an RFA listener.

For more than a year and a half, officials in one of China’s eastern provinces have been waging an aggressive campaign to remove crosses from Protestant churches.

This may appear unremarkable given the Communist Party leadership’s hostility to organized religious groups worshipping outside China’s official control.

But what’s notable is the parishioners’ unrelenting peaceful resistance to the authorities’ anti-cross campaign.

The churchgoers, many of them located in Zhejiang’s coastal city of Wenzhou, have been remarkably eloquent in writing open letters.

They also sing hymns in front of armed policemen, stage church rooftop protests, and cite China’s own constitution, which promises them freedom of religion.

Protestants in Wenzhou have also recently begun making small red-painted wooden crosses to display across Zhejiang as another form of civil disobedience.

In recent days, some local pastors have been told that the campaign against crosses is being halted, probably due to upcoming ceremonies to mark the anniversary of the end of World War II, which would bring many high-profile foreign visitors to China.

But Bob Fu, who leads the U.S.-based Christian human rights organization ChinaAid, said that in at least some areas of Zhejiang the cross removal has definitely not stopped.

He referred to a photo of a long crane removing a cross from a church called Sanjie in the city of Shaoxing on August 10.

His estimate of the combined number of churches demolished and crosses removed in Zhejiang comes to more than 1,500 so far.

In some cases, pastors have been detained or arrested. In August, authorities in Zhejiang detained seven Christians on suspicion of crimes including “embezzlement” and public order offenses after they tried to prevent government-hired workers from demolishing a cross on their church.



Why Wenzhou?

The city of Wenzhou, dubbed “China’s Jerusalem” by some, has been a major target of the demolition and cross removal campaign.

Wenzhou may appear threatening to Party officials because many in its large and relatively well-to-do population of middle class entrepreneurs have adopted Christianity as their religion.

They thus combine financial clout with a strong devotion to Christian beliefs.

The majority embrace Protestantism, but some are Roman Catholics, and a few Catholic churches have also been recent targets of demolition teams.

About 15 years ago, the Communist Party reached out to co-opt China’s wealthiest capitalists and entrepreneurs by offering them Party membership.

This has favored some of the richest “red capitalists” in China. But many of the entrepreneurs in Wenzhou are small independent-minded businesspeople who have yet to fully bounce back from a local credit collapse a few years ago.

What may concern the Communist Party leadership more generally has been the Chinese people’s widespread loss of faith in communism over the years and the resulting “spiritual vacuum” in China.

Finally, it may also have shocked some Party stalwarts when even leading members of some of the government-sanctioned Three-Self Patriotic Churches in Zhejiang spoke out against the cross and church demolition movement.

“The pushback is surprising coming from legally registered churches, which in the past rarely strayed from the Party line,” said Yang Fenggang, director of the Center of Religion and Chinese Society at Purdue University in Indiana, in a recent interview with World magazine.


What Next?

Some experts think that what is happening in Wenzhou may be a prelude to an intensified nationwide crackdown on Christian churches, since Communist Party leaders apparently fear any highly organized group operating outside of its control.

As New York-based Freedom House noted in a report last month, signs of a nationwide attack on so-called underground house churches were already evident in 2014.

While some Protestant and Roman Catholic congregations were able “to meet quietly with the tacit approval of local authorities,” Freedom House said, other house church gatherings were “raided or evicted from their meeting locations.”

In Wenzhou local Party leaders were surprisingly tolerant until last year.

A major turning point occurred in late April 2014 in Wenzhou when the huge state-sanctioned Sanjiang Church with an 180-foot spire in Wenzhou was torn down for allegedly violating zoning regulations.

Local officials had earlier praised the $5 million church as a “model construction project” and allowed it to be legally registered.

The destruction of this church, moved the city to “the center of a national battle with a Communist Party increasingly suspicious of the Western values it represents,” reported The New York Times.

Analysts told Radio Free Asia that the huge church had become a too-visible reminder of the numbers of Chinese turning to Protestant Christianity—and of their financial muscle.



Protestant churches

China’s Communist Party members number nearly 88 million according to official sources. But some scholars believe that the country’s Christian population, including a conservative estimate of 60 million or more Protestants, is on its way to exceeding that number if it has not already done so.

And the Protestant faith seems to have attracted an increasing number of Chinese human rights lawyers, many of them a target of a sweeping crackdown this year.

Lawyer Teng Biao, now in the U.S. as a visiting scholar at Harvard Law School, told The New York Review of Books that about a fourth of China’s human rights lawyers are Christians because “without God or a belief, a human rights lawyer would feel hopeless.”

A Council on Foreign Relations background report on Christianity in China published in May this year cited experts as saying that Chinese Christians are also attracted to the faith’s “sense of fellowship, comprehensive moral system, organized structure, and solidarity as part of an international movement.”



State policy toward Christian churches

In widely reported remarks on May 20 this year, President Xi Jinping warned against foreign influence on religion in China.

“Active efforts should be made to incorporate religions into socialist society,” Xi said at a high-level Party meeting.

Under Xi, the Chinese government has been promoting traditional Chinese culture and religion, including Confucianism, Buddhism and Taoism, apparently as a counter to Christianity.

But some experts see the attacks on churches in Zhejiang as part of a much broader assault on all dissent.

A Christian who took part in demonstrations in Wenzhou on Tuesday stressed that churchgoers are law abiding and focused on the cross issue.

“We are here to express our feelings to the cross. We are Christians, we are peace-loving people. We feel very sad that our crosses have been torn down, but we won’t go on the street or act against the government,” said the follower, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

support Chinese christians

China Detains Lawyer in Zhejiang Amid Ongoing Cross Demolition Program
2015-08-26 

http://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/lawyer-08262015111356.html/china-zhanglawyer-aug262015.jpg/image

Lawyer Zhang Kai (C) is shown with two assistants in Wenzhou, Aug. 25, 2015.
Photo courtesy of an RFA listener.


Authorities in the eastern Chinese province of Zhejiang have detained a top Beijing rights lawyer who was advising local Christians in their bid to resist the demolition of crosses from local churches.

Zhang Kai had recently been based in the coastal city of Wenzhou, known as "China's Jerusalem," to offer pro bono advice to more than 100 Protestant churches facing the removal of their crosses and the detention of pastors, lay preachers, and church members.

"They did it on the quiet, in the middle of the night," a member of Xialing Church in Wenzhou told RFA on Wednesday. "They didn't tell anybody in our church that this would happen."

"By the time we got there, he had already been taken away."

The church member said many people were concerned about Zhang's fate.

"He was acting as adviser to more than 100 churches," he said.

A second Protestant church member from the region said Zhang was detained at the same time as a group of preachers and pastors.

"They moved in simultaneously in different locations," the church member said. "They took the preachers at the same time as Lawyer Zhang."

A police officer who answered the phone at the nearby Lucheng district police department in Wenzhou declined to comment.

"I haven't received any information about this," the officer said.



Call for release

Meanwhile, the head of the Xinqiao law firm in Beijing, Yang Xingquan, issued a statement on Wednesday condemning Zhang's detention.

He said two legal assistants had been detained at the same time by the Wenzhou authorities, and called for their immediate release.

Yang said he planned to travel to Wenzhou in a bid to inquire after the detainees and to represent them.

Wenzhou police also held preachers Wei Wenhai, Zhou Jian and Cheng Congping of the city's Tengqiao Protestant parish on Wednesday for questioning.

Yongqiang parish preacher Wang Yunxian and pastor Yan Xiaojie of the Divine Evangelist group were also summoned, apparently for questioning.

And the wife of Zhang Chongzhu, a pastor from Wenzhou's Pingyang county, said her husband had been taken away on Wednesday by state security police.

"He was taken away on a summons ... at around 1.00 p.m.," Zhang's wife said, adding that no reason was given by officers who took him away.

"Pastor Hua Licheng was also placed under house arrest today," she added.



Civil disobedience campaign

Churches have waged widespread civil disobedience campaigns in the face of a cross demolition campaign launched by the ruling Chinese Communist Party in Zhejiang in recent months.

The removal is part of a three-year urbanization and beautification campaign, which orders local governments to "revise" old neighborhoods, old industrial sites, and urban villages and demolish illegal structures by the end of 2015, official media have said.

Zhejiang authorities have said they are merely “relocating” the crosses from the roofs of churches to the interior.

But churchgoers have written open letters, sung hymns to armed security officers, staged sit-ins in churches and on rooftops, and displayed small red-painted wooden crosses across the province in protest at the move.

Churches are also being subjected to audits and financial reviews, with some pastors detained on suspicion of "embezzlement" after they resisted the demolition of crosses.

Xu Songgui, a youth leader at the Tianchang church in Wenzhou's Zeya township, said that "Document No. 7" issued by the Wenzhou municipal government had ordered the audits.

"They came here yesterday to check through our accounts," Xu said. "We have to finish the audit by Aug. 28."



'Unprecedented'

He said the audits were unprecedented.

"Such a thing has happened here in more than a dozen years," Xu said. "I don't know if the civil and religious affairs bureau even has the right to check our accounts under law."

But he said the church is cooperating nonetheless.

"This is a priority document, which means that any attempts to obfuscate or cover up could lead to criminal prosecution," Xu said.

President Xi Jinping warned ruling Chinese Communist Party ideologues earlier this year that the development of religion in China, which is already closely controlled by an army of religious affairs officials, should be "independent of foreign influence."

Citing the rapid expansion in Christian believers since churches began to reopen in the wake of the political turmoil of the Cultural Revolution (1966-1976), Xi has described religion as a tool that can easily be used "by hostile foreign forces."

Reported by Yang Fan for RFA's Mandarin Service, and by Hai Nan for the Cantonese Service. Translated and written in English by Luisetta Mudie.

http://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/lawyer-08262015111356.html

http://www.boxun.com/news/images/2015/08/201508261136china1.jpg


according to the information from Fr. Francis Jonathan （@FRJonathanLiu）on twitter , chinese christian lawyer ZHANG kai and his assistant LIU peng were arrested in the midnight

on 25.8.2015 in Xialing church Zhejiang provience.

free lawyer Zhang Kai

supportChineseChristian

Obama is Christian or not? i think he isnt

I don't think so.

Human races have nothing to do with religions. Nobody is black or white for being Muslim or Christian!
Religions played a role to bootstrap complex societies, but today they do more harm than good. Is like keeping an Autoexec.bat over an UEFI OS.

But I second you: study it, but beware, NEVER study just one! Study one and you'll be hooked for life, study two and you'll be done with it in 10 minutes.

The word "race" cannot be applied to human species cause Fascism/Nazism lost Second World War.

When talking about human species you need to talk about ethnicity which has nothing to do with science, it has more to do with sociology and theology.

Human species are divided into 3 groups: Semitic, Hamitic, Japhethites (Gen, 10)

If you call them races I don't blame it. The word is correct for me.

I think this is great, christianity is just a world marketing to steal peoples money.

Buddhism is what china is about and that should be remain as it is, comming from a country were christinity has been the sourse to massive killings i support chinese goverment to do the right thing and stand against this evil churches.

True Christianity is not about making money, as it says the money is the root of all evil and the rich men will have a harder time getting into heaven. Don't get the churches' Christianity mixed up with what the bible actually says.

Yeah but too bad most of the real words have been lost.

Jesus was buddhist so it's kinda sad to see chinese people getting branwashed into christianity.

WTF?

That's not true. Jesus was Jewish.

My Faith in Jesus Christ our Lord is not so strong but saying that Jesus Christ our Lord was something different from Jewish (N-word, buddhist, others...) is not going to give an hint on my personal Faith problem.


Thank You and best regards.



PS: BYTW chinese people are brainwashed into atheism not christianity.

Ofcorse the real believers won't care as God is only one, and  he is everywere, i't don't matter what you call it, it's the same.

But he was buddhist all the way ,  it's written in hisorty and it has been hidden but not everythin can be hidden.

It's something that has been hidden because it will destroy most of tought history.


But if you choose to get intereset and make research you will find the truth.

the truth can never be hidden for ever.

And you can never lie to everyone.

Plenty of people lie. The bible clearly says there will be deception. People will say that Jesus was another religion to pull people away from the true path that Jesus laid out. There is only one way to God and that is through Jesus Christ.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

if you is going to quote something, quote from the quran or torax, the bibble is the most incomplete and manipulated source.

Besides jesus was only 1 prophet out of many.

and there is only one way to god and it is trough your self, not trough somebody else, you are as brainwashed as the rest of the christians.

Luke 8:17 For nothing is hidden that will not become evident, nor anything secret that will not be known and come to light

Most that just quote bibel citations do not folllow the steps of the truth, i guess you are not 100% commited either, i bet you go to church and confess your sins every sunday.

Commitment to the truth is not about talking of it, it's about making it.

not impressed, next!

I don't go to church (they don't really follow the bible) and I attempt to follow the 10 commandments at every moment of my life, not just every day, but at every decision. I am committed to Jesus Christ, and He is the way, the TRUTH and the life.

Nope jesus was just commited, he spreaded the word and lived by his word, kinda lika buddhist monks, strange right ?.

As said jesus was just another spreader of the word, a so called prophet of many other prophets.

the truth is found by your own self, not trough others, because you would be living somebody else life if you do so and we are all genuine expamples of creation whit own capabilties of own descisions.

I agree that the truth (Jesus) is found by every individual, no one can save you (get you to believe in Jesus as your savior) but yourself.

Nope jesus is not inside you because he is already all dried bones and dust and he is burried in the mountains of kashmir..


But i see that you are as brainwashed as the ones you say that you are no part of to only believe in what the bibbles says makes you no diffrent from the ones who commits them self to church 24/7 .

You are the ones the bibel warn us froms.

God is love, no god will treath you to burn in hell if you do not believe in him, words of satan more like, because your bibel have been modified decades ago by some who want's you to believe in someone else, someone evil ,whitout you knowing it and making you acccept it whitout your own knowledge making you a sheep, brainwashing you whit false statements.


god do not judge, god do not treath, god only welcomes you whit love.

I don't believe in hell, I agree it was added on by people who wanted to profit, and make people scared. Which is why the bible talks about not changing the bible with curses for those who do.

But we will be judged, and Jesus is alive and will come again to judge the world. In order for us to have the new earth and new world, we will have to get rid of the evil in this world, and to do that, there needs to be judgement.

I as the truth is whit me commands you to stop spreding false statements in the name of a holy prophet, stop decieving people  !

What do you think is false, that there is no hell that people will burn in forever and ever? or that people may have changed the bible to make it look like there was?

You are false .

Well I asked you kindly, what you thought was wrong, so I could discuss the biblical verse that go along with it. But you seem to be not interested in discussing anything.

I kindly ask you to study the bible about such things and check out the original words for hell.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

I do not need to discuss about the bibble because the bible is not the bearer of the truth.

When you have found your self you will find the real truth and the true path to god and god will hug you only for once.

From what you said I can clearly understand that your are Muslim.
That is interesting you said something completely opposite to my religion: believe in yourself. In my religion is never thought to believe in yourself, only in the one before you and in the one after you. Never believe in yourself.

Now I understand why we fight so much.

I'm trying to understand Scentific racism to give an explanation to my lack of faith in Jesus Christ.

I'm trying to give a scientific answer to a faith question (probably my question research will lead to madness  :))

If we can find races based on the Biblical classification (Semitic, Hamitic, Japhethites. Gen, 10) we can be right without discussion: science can give you proofs not opinions.

That was all guys not need to discuss about our different views of God: I have a problem in believing Jesus Christ is our Lord, this is a faith problem, you cannot discuss it, you either have it or not.


Going back to the thread's subject: this is about how in China Government won't give you a Communist Party's association card if you have Faith: Chinese Government is pushing Atheism as the official "State's religion".


So... stop talking about God's Faith please, I was talking about science and human's races based on biblical inspirations are 3: Semitic, Hamitic, Japhethites (Gen, 10)

And the thread is about showing the fact that Chinese Government is pushing Atheism as the official "State's religion" again, so it is not talking about Faith in God, is talking about Facts not Faith (that is not a fact).

Taking about Faith is going Off Topic as the thread's owner was talking about Facts not Faith.


Thank You and best regards.

You can say i am muslim yes, i am catholic aswell, i believe in buddhism  i believe that god is the same god that everyones.



I don't see how anything is offtopic when the faith, the religion and the churches are based on god.

People taking of crosses because of other believes.

A true believer don't need a fysical temple, the temple is you.

When you talk about science, god is science and science is god .


Jesus was just one prophet, and putting your beliefs entire on him is lack of knowledege and mere deception of your teachers.




Faith is not justified by religion , an unknown entity, or some tales .


but you are probably an atheist and wouldnt comprehend

You don't know what you are: that's not my problem.


And the thread is about showing the fact that Chinese Government is pushing Atheism as the official "State's religion" again, so it is not talking about Faith in God, is talking about Facts not Faith (that is not a fact).

Taking about Faith is going Off Topic as the thread's owner was talking about Facts not Faith.

ATHEISM IS NOT A RELIGION.


You don't know how to distinguish between Faith and Science: that is not the discussion of the thread however, open your own thread to discuss that.

YOU ARE OFF TOPIC.


Yeah, right: say that to the Pope and 2B Christians in the world!


Faith is not the subject of this thread: how Chinese Government is pushing Atheism as State "Religion" is the subject here.


I don't get offended by somebody that is not even able to keep the subject of the discussion.  :)

AGAIN: I'M NOT TALKING THE PISS ON YOU I'M "JUST" EVADING THE CONVERSATION AS THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT YOUR FAITH IN GOD IS ABOUT HOW THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT IS PUSHING ATHEISM AS THE STATE'S "RELIGION"

Muslims don't divide between State's and Religion: Christians do. As this thread was opened about a Christian please try to use the same philosophy of the thread's owner as well.

"You are Muslim": you don't separate between State and Religion. I know.

Keeping the subject of the discussion is following the rules. Using the same philosophy of the thread's owner is intelligence.


Please, again, don't get offended by that: you are off topic that's why I'm not discussing it.



Thank You and best regards.

i know who i am, i do not need to choose a religion or a non religion to define my personality, i just believe.


'Well i think that chinese is not adopting the atheism but showing that they don't want to get infected by a virus that has done more damage than good.

Christianity has been and is one of the religions that have caused mor tragedies and genocides trough history.


Everyone hs the right to choose what to believe but  christianity is full of deceptions , lies and manipulation.


Ofcourse it's clerly that pope and all hes followers will get mad when you tell them that jesus was never christian , jesus is the main source of their incomes.

I mean who in the hell sell tickets to go and see a pope? yes the vatican sells you tickets to enter.

You're confusing Catholicism with Christianity.

"You are Muslim": you don't separate between State and Religion. I know.

That's something I would like about Islam as soon as I understand how Jesus Christ our Lord is the Messiah.

Now: "I'm the one Off Topic", speaking about Faith (and probably my problems) in somebody else's thread.

"Being smart is about giving your faults to others." => NO THANK YOU: You are Off Topic and can WE please stop spamming msc_de thread with MY (OUR?!?) problems?


Don't push me: I already have a faith problem this is not going to help, thank you for the illumination however.

====================================================================================================================


Yes: Catholicism is a sub-set of Christianity.

But Muslims are able to don't separate between State and Religion and I think is an amazing thing. So don't liquidate them so easily.

Not separating between State and Religion is able to don't separate between Faith and Rationality: this is a very powerful tool.


Thank You: I was not hoping to find the lack of faith in Jesus Christ (our Lord) here, but discussing is helpful, so they said.


Best regards.

Lol you don't even know what you talk about you are as brainwashed as the ones you defend.


Jesus was buddhist end of story, do som research, you should know by now that there is a part of jesus not a lord, or a saviour missing.

The missing years is were he was picked up byt 3 monks , and took him as an aprentice, when he then came back at hes 30 years talking about the good life, he was talking about everything buddhism tought him.

He was an aprentice of tibetian buddhist monks, making him a buddhist monk aswell, he was probably shaved and most likely not even blond whit blue eyes.

Jesus is just a BRAND at this point of age were all you branwashed have bought it.


Catholism is form of christianity yes.


I might be a muslim or not, i am catholic, i am buddhist, i am rastafarian i am even science believer , as already told you i believe in many religions and one of them is not christianity because simple, it's full of lies and deceptions, and you are part of the lies and you keep lying to your self about a saviour that you have no clue about.

Read more about history, read about the Templars and how they hid the body of jesus because of they controverisals of their brand.


Saying that Religion has nothing to do whit faith is just stupid, because faith god, prophets churches even political acts against belief is about religion you are just missleaded and decieved just as many.


GOD is one , and the way to him is by you, not by some dude who is dead that you never ever met, someone you heard stories from someone who heard from some body who had heard somthing from somone who was told from some body else that they tought they heard about something about someone who some were in time might have lived.


You are just plain blinded , lecture your self more before arguing .



And you saying that you "KNOW" is a fact and prooff that you know nothing.

A real king do not need to say that he is a king. see something familiar i guess you won't

This is the story of Sun Wukong (from which the manga Dragonball is taken) not the history of Jesus Christ.

The "history" of Sun Wukong are narrated in the novel "Journey to the West".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journey_to_the_West

Journey to the West is a novel, the Bible is an historical book.

Sun Wukong never existed, Jesus Christ existed.

You are brainwashed by the TV and precisely by the manga Dragon Ball
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Ball

You are going Off Topic again discussing about Faith, but I'll give you my time for that as you are showing interest in knowing.


It is write Catholicism not Catholism.

Catholism is the FIRST form of Christianity born and, as every first child, the real one.



Thank You: you are giving confirmation, also if I didn't need it, that Jesus Christ was a real person.

Please don't confound the imaginary character Son Wukong with the real person Jesus Christ: one history is narrated in the NOVEL Journey to the West, the other history is narrated in the HISTORICAL BOOK Bible.

Sun Wukong never existed, Jesus Christ existed, however we are talking the same language here. Thank You.


I never said that "Religion has nothing to do whit faith".

I said that: YOU are talking about FAITH, and Faith is not the subject of this thread. The subject of this thread is how Chinese Government is pushing Atheism as the State's "Religion".

The fact that you are able to speak about State and Religion in the same argument is because you are Muslim, and Muslims don't separate between State and Religion.

Please don't use the powerful tool you have here (to not separate between State and Religion) to push the fault on me: you were talking about FAITH I was talking about Atheism.

Atheism is the lack of Faith and Chinese Government is pushing Atheism as the State's "Religion".


Thank You, however I was teached the exact opposite.

Please respect my background until we reach an agreement.


Please, again, don't push the fault on me cause you have a superior tool: slashing with your sword a disarmed "unbeliever" is not a smart thing to do.

You could do it of course.


That's an interesting view, again, you are killing the next to me to enforce this view: Violence is always stronger than Pacifism.

Again: you are off topic here, you are talking about Faith while the discussion is how Chinese Government is pushing Atheism as the State's "Religion".


Atheism is the lack of Faith.



Thank you and best regards.

What evidence that Jesus Christ ever existed? The first references to him appears some 70 years after his death and there's no record of any crucifixion of such person ordered by Pilates.
Jesus most likely is just a character in the romance we call the Bible - we know for sure that many stories of the Old Testament were assorted Middle Eastern legends rewritten to have a Jew as the main character.

Again this is talking about Faith not Atheism (which is the lack of Faith).

Apologies to the thread's owner for this Nth-Off Topic.

That is not my fault.

Best regards.


PS: just to close the discussion started (by me, somebody will said), if you have Faith you believe in the Bible, if you believe in the Bible you have proofs that Jesus Christ is our Lord.

By that example we can see what it means to live in a harsh dictatorship. You can´t even choose your religion freely.
I don´t understand where did the offtop about the existence of the God etc. come from.

Under some democracies you can't also chose to be of a Nazi, Communist or Fascist parties and those aren't even allowed to exist.
Some can call that measures against social unrest, that both religions and politics may cause.

As for "faith", for someone with "faith" in Santa will make it exist for real... or not at all.

You can't argue whit bitnow, he is atheist and he thinks he is right because science makes him the right now.

But what he do not understand that god is everything even science.

he Makes no difference from a dictator bashing atheism into people,











Bibble has been changed by the jews as you say for they benefits there are some documentations about them handing out free copies to amount of places , were those bibbles have been distorded.

Jesus was never cruzified , it is something they had to made up because of the controversials of the religion it would made the religion "fake" .

Templar knights had to do whit much covered up aswell, the body of jesus is hidden in kashmir.

Precisely.

In my Country of origin, Italy, you can't, by law, be Fascist or Nazi: that's why I understand what is happening right now in China where the Chinese Government is trying to ban Religion.

Nazism and Fascism produced "Scentific racism" in XX century, cause they lost Second Warld War you cannot talk anymore about races when talking about human species you can only talk about ethnicity. Ethnicity has more to do with sociology and theology than science.

That's why religion is in there.

====================================================================================================================


If I will say that God is even science I will bound to your power and to the power of your religion that is able to not separate State, Religion and Science.

That is showing weakness: I will not do that next time.



Please talk about Son Wukong and Dragon Ball manga: taking the piss on religion is not fun.


Hope this off topic ends here.



Thank You and best regards.

CHINA: LAWYER SUPPORTING CHURCHES IN CHINA DETAINED

By Amnesty International, 3 September 2015, Index number: ASA 17/2370/2015

A prominent human rights lawyer and his two assistants have been detained in China as part of a wider crackdown on activists who are resisting the removal of crosses from churches. Zhang Kai has been placed under ‘residential surveillance’ in an unknown location, which means he can be held for up to six months without access to his lawyers or family.

View report in English

DOWNLOAD PDF
https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/asa17/2370/2015/en/

This is horrible. I wish I had something other to say than that. :(

This is horrible only if you are searching for beauty, this is not horrible if you are searching for philosophy.

What is happening here is the separation of State and Religion.

This is what Islam and Catholicism are fighting since after Second World War: Islam is able to NOT separate between State and Religion (Sharia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia), while Catholicism decided, with the creation of Italian constitution, to separate COMPLETELY between State and Religion.

What Chinese Government is trying to do is what Catholicism did after Second World War: try to separate between State and Religion by creating an ATHEIST State.

Italian Constitution does not oblige to be atheist, that's where Chinese Government is going one step forward: complete separation between State and Religion.

If you believe in God and in the words of the Bible you'll think that atheism is a SIN, so you'll have problem's with that, if you don't believe in God this will be your best place to live: HELL.

I'm italian that's why I needed to say that: I wanted this argument to be as clear as possible. This is where I lived since I was born.


Thank You and best regards.

 i am sorry but i have to say what you said is call black white!

what chinese government did is not the separation of state and religion but vice versa, they use state power against religious freedom which is fundamental human right.

Idea.

Exactly. Separation of state and religion would leave religious buildings with the ability to have a cross on it without any intervening from the state.

That is separation of State and Religion and is already happening in Italy and in others States around the world that have a Constitution similar to the one of Italy.

How the Chinese State is doing an improvement over the conditions already found in others States around the world if they are not doing something new?

I'm sorry you have a bad idea about what separation of state and religion is.

"While a country's policy may be to have a definite distinction in church and state, there may be an "arm's length distance" relationship in which the two entities interact as independent organizations. " (link (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state))

Churches in China cannot act like an independent organization when they're being told what they can and cannot do with crosses on their property.

If the Chines Government replace Religion with atheism they have separated State from Religion.

There are different ways of solving the same problem: don't look only in your neighbour's garden and put yourself in others people's shoes.

You can solve problems by keeping traditions or you can solve problems by following new paths: Chinese Government is solving this problem by following a new path.



Thank You and best regards.

you can not wake up who pretend to be asleep, such as bitnow here

I feel hopless. But I still catch the little hope.

I'm just fighting for my Life like everybody else in this Planet.

Thank you for the content of this thread: you are doing a real-time view of what is happening on the other side of this Planet from where I live.

Best regards.

not idea but fact

i see, best regards..

time tells everything, we will see ..

up >:( >:(

China Holds Two Christian Preachers in Unknown Locations on Spying Charges
2015-09-25 

Authorities in the eastern Chinese province of Zhejiang have confirmed that they are holding two Protestant preachers under residential surveillance on suspicion of espionage, relatives and lawyers told RFA.

The wife of Pingyang county pastor Zhang Chongzhu received notification from police on Friday that her husband is being held at an unknown location on suspicion of "gathering, stealing, buying and illegally providing state secrets" as well as "espionage."

"They are saying it’s for gathering and leaking state secrets or some such thing," Zhang's wife, who sent a copy of the police notification to RFA, said.

"Of course I haven't been allowed [to visit him]," she added. "If someone is held under residential surveillance, it seems that even their lawyer doesn't get to meet with them."

She slammed the allegations against Zhang as "ridiculous."

"I think this is too ridiculous for words," she said. "But we are powerless to do anything; we can't sue the government."

"All we can do is pray," she said.

The notification from police comes after three weeks of uncertainty after Zhang Chongzhu “disappeared” en route home from Shanghai amid an ongoing crackdown on Christians opposed to the provincial government's demolition program targeting visible crosses on places of worship.

Zhang Zhi, a preacher from Pingyang county's Xianqiao Church, is also being held under residential surveillance on the same charges after being detained on Sept. 7, local sources told RFA.

Disobedience campaigns

Churches in and around Zhejiang's Wenzhou city have waged widespread civil disobedience campaigns in the face of the demolition campaign, which is part of a three-year urbanization and beautification campaign requiring local governments to demolish illegal structures by the end of 2015.

Zhejiang authorities have said they are merely “relocating” the crosses from the roofs of churches to the interior, while analysts say the sheer profusion of Christian worship in a region known as "China's Jerusalem" has rattled the ruling Chinese Communist Party.

Churchgoers have written open letters, sung hymns to armed security officers, staged sit-ins in churches and on rooftops, and displayed small red-painted wooden crosses on buildings and on T-shirts in protest at the move.

Churches are also being subjected to audits and financial reviews, with some pastors detained on suspicion of "embezzlement" after they resisted the demolition of crosses.

A Wenzhou Protestant church member told RFA on Friday that a total of 18 people have now been detained in the crackdown, including rights lawyer Zhang Kai, who was advising local Christians in their bid to resist the demolition of crosses.

According to an Aug. 27 notice sent by the Wenzhou municipal police department to his family, Zhang is being held on suspicion of "gathering a crowd to disrupt public order," "spying" and illegally gathering, buying and supplying state secrets overseas."

Zhang Kai had offered pro bono advice to more than 100 Protestant churches facing the removal of their crosses and the detention of pastors, lay preachers, and church members.

He was taken away by state security police alongside two legal assistants on Aug. 25.

"[Zhang] hasn't come back yet," the church member said. "There are a lot of people whose whereabouts we don't know."

"In all, there are 18 people [gone], and three of them were lawyers ... They are doing this to put pressure on the churches, but we won't cave in."

Also among those detained is pastor Huang Yizi from Pingyang county's Fengwotang church, who also heads a group known as the China Christian Evangelic Mission, local residents told RFA.

Huang, who was released from prison after a year-long sentence on Aug. 1, was detained again on Sept. 12 and is now being held in criminal detention for "endangering national security," his lawyer Li Jinglin said.

Li said the authorities hadn't issued a formal notification to his wife.

"Pastor Huang's wife asked them ... and they said they didn't need to inform her," he said. "She asked them which detention center he is being held in, but they said it was 'inconvenient' to tell her that."

Reported by Yang Fan for RFA's Mandarin Service, and by Hai Nan for the Cantonese Service. Translated and written in English by Luisetta Mudie.

Stay safe. Remember not all participants on bitcointalk are your friends. I am glad this thread is always never too far away from our little the front page.

thank you!!

離開

Although i am atheist I really hate these oppressive governments. Government should have no say in what religion somebody wants to practice.

If you saw the Night Uniform of

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/9f/52/4e/9f524e7f9eee68f1eb932e6c94f92e77.jpg

you would understand why faker in black, or white for their leader better leave fast... there is no mercy for those trying to corrupt the mind by telling lies. there are no sheep in china, only FREE (WO)MEN wow :D.

they are so toasted, fried, or cut, harvested or burried, those lies are dangerous.

THE CHRIST DIDN'T COME TO CHINA BECAUSE HE WOULD HAVE HAD NOTHING NEW TO TEACH. HE WOULD HAVE GROWN OLD.

this religion contrary to Islam or Judaism isn't compatible with a peaceful, harmonious, loving and kind China.

Who did crucify the Buddha?

Khan knows about Blue Sky, Sacred Water : Blue Sky Sacred Water = Tao.

Tao=Peace=War=All=God

Tao=safe
Christianity=unsafe

there is no faith in the TAO

TAO IS.

you or me

What does this mean?


What are you talking about?

Wasn't the Buddha death come by natural ageing?


Best regards.

s/he said:  go away

So: no talk.

And yet you are still complaining that your Government takes freedom from you.

Listen to me: go away.


Thank You, and Best regards.

it's stupid to build business on a bridge, unless it's the Entreprise :D.

I said leave to the christian church in china.

there is no reason to mess children mind.

:D

you shut up

no you :)... hahaha. (no just kidding, spread your filth miscreant).

for me it goes like this:

1 they don't have argument
2 they attack personally
3 they silent

but against the IN GOD WE TRUST... good luck, kuffar.

That has nothing to do with G-d: that has something to do about men being in Power with Violence not Respect.

I was explaining that to ThePrinceofTea while msc_de took his/her side and I don't understand why: you have your Government banning your Faith and you lose time in covering an "innmates" of yours.

That is not logical thinking.


Best regards.

logic 1-1=0.

I win.

You avoided the discussion.

You lose.


Best regards.

how? I didn't understand what you wanted to say... anyway why would you decide what is winning? you are an arbiter? bad news, ain't a sport... piker.

How? What?


I didn't understood what you wanted to say:
because you wrote in Chinese not in English.

Write in English in an English thread.

Who decide who is winning?

I just replied with your same language.


I am.


Thank you for the info.


Best regards.

I agree my Chinese sucks: (unofficial translation) FUCK OFF. you can say politely, please leave you are unwelcome. you can break the law, you will face the consequences... as a disclaimer: it may included loss of life. why? because it's so.

clearer? water clear? better.

Quoting myself:

If you aren't welcome in China, you will leave China. be it by the big door freely or as a victim... semantic.

I win :).

How this has something to do with the thread's subject?
" China Continues to Tear Down Crosses From Zhejiang's Churches "

Best regards.

everything, it's about sovereignty.

sincerely yours.

(cooter :D)

OT

and again:
/OT

What is fun is that even if you are deaf you can feel an execution.

WTF >:( >:(

support chinese christians!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm not sure about Christianity myself.

I am sure that you will be sure in the near future about it

UP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

China's Communist Party should have already changed this attitude against "all" religions.
I think yes radicalists of religions can be dangerous but this does not give you right to ban people from believing/following ideas.

China's Communist Party  holly bullshit and rubbish!!!!!!

Best regards.  :)

all Christians all over the world should support mainland chinese Christians against china government on this case!!!

china government , go hell !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

china government , total bullshit

SB china government

Pilates existed and the proof is there already.

http://www.bible-history.com/empires/pilate.html

Here is the proof - If God exist (or Gods) - he must remove this message.

If not - all "cristians" (and momo-poli theists) are fooled.

610 office member, go hell !!!!!!!!!!!

this is almost the same as ISIS did, this is national terrorism against religion freedom

That is not what God is all about, if you have read the bible you would understand

WoW.
The bible of brainwashing Master Li?

FUCK OFF CHINA 610 office member

Why You are thinking, that in Your Home are no fonts of radiation in dangerous levels?

Why You are thinking, that in Your Home are no fonts of radiation in dangerous levels too?

Yesterday night i have seen a van on the street, with writed "human organ transportation", i have thinking about You, that German Falun Gong zombie members have cut You alve for producing fake evidence of persecutions.

There are municipal, statal and private services, that execute some basic surveilliance.
The sadliest thing is when such font located near slipping position of the victim body (http://www.amazon.de/GQ-GMC-300E-Plus-Radiation-monitoring-professional/dp/B00HOUW066/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1448279612&sr=8-1&keywords=geiger+counter).

But You certainly are thinking, that Falun Gong exercises are stronger as such extraterrestrial activity on the Earth.

In USA tribunals sell out christian church property (https://www.google.it/search?q=usa,+catolic+church+property,+victim+pedophilia&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=2gFTVrTbAcfpUoqToogG) to pay victims of criminal activity of such group of Jew God woodo-zombie style belivers, so cutting them a cross is not the badlies thing.

But You pointing allways on China. So, You will hide the large violations of penal code in cristian "churches of pedophilia" around the World by Your flooding here?

Put here the pictures of shit christian money addicted "church" buildings in United Emirates, they have no crosses on the top of building too.
The only one superior like church have the cross exposed.

Write some teaching to that country, how they need living with respect with Your vision, Master msc_de.

today  Shizhu Church Tai zhou in china  >:(

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CVBxQgSUwAASg88.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CVBxQgsVEAEYpEW.jpg

Wow, so liberal country, they don't touch photographers.
Taking pictures in Europe is a real problem, when autorities are in action.

Pilates existed, so did Herod, but that proves nothing about Jesus. Actually Herod proves it to be wrong, as he died on 4 b.C., 4 years before the supposed birth of Jesus. Also the census, that xtians are celebrating now, happened by 6 a.C. Means that by 9 a.C. a guy dead for 15 years ordered to chase children... sounds legit!

"Oh but the son and successor of Herod was also Herod"... right, but Matthew 2:22 says:
«But when he heard that Archelaus was reigning in Judea in place of his father Herod,...»
This leaves no doubt about who it talks about.

This historical incoherence comes from the fact that your religion was actually MADE UP by 50 a.C. by Saul of Tarsos (Paul) and its first historical reference would come by Josephus at the end of I Century a.C. (or after Nobody to be more accurate)

"Pilates existed."

Where did you go to school?


Best regards.

?!
There isn't any doubt about his existence as far as I know. There're records of his existence. But not of him ordering a crucification of Jesus (other than the Bible, that is)...

MERRY CHRISTMAS


SUPPORT CHINESE CHRISTIANS

I do not think any government has the right to infringe on the beliefs of another person, provided no one is being hurt. This is a clear violation of the legal human right; the right to believe whatever I want, provided I'm not hurting another person.

Christianity has been persecuted down through the ages, Chinese Christians will survive this one as well. It's just a trial.

China's Zhejiang Bans Religious Activities in Hospitals as Crackdown Widens

2016-08-18

Authorities in the eastern Chinese province of Zhejiang have banned all forms of religious activity in hospitals in an ongoing crackdown targeting the region's burgeoning Protestant Christian community.

A public notice posted at the Central Hospital in Zhejiang's Wenzhou, a city that has been dubbed "China's Jerusalem" because of its high concentration of Christians, made patients and their visitors unequivocally aware of the new rules this week.

"Religious activities are banned in this hospital," the notice said. The Wenzhou Central Hospital was originally set up as a Protestant hospital.

An employee who answered the phone at the same hospital on Thursday confirmed the new measures.

"Religious activities in hospitals have never been encouraged ... but some people have been doing it on the quiet, which is understandable, seeing that we are all here to support patients," the employee said.

The new rules don't just ban patients from carrying out religious activities like prayer or preaching; they also prevent ministers or pastors from holding prayer meetings for patients in hospital.

"Some people were really giving it their all, praying aloud and reading out the Bible," the employee said. "That's not allowed."

"The order is shown to patients when they are admitted to hospital telling them that no religious activities are permitted in the hospital," the employee said. "If they do that here, then the nurses and doctors will have a word with them."




Further interference

Guangzhou-based pastor Ma Ke, of the southern city's Guangfu Church, said the rules represent further state interference with freedom of religious belief in China.

"They are interfering with people's religious beliefs, which is against the constitution ... because Chinese citizens should have the freedom to choose their religion, or to have no religion," Ma told RFA.

"I think it's perfectly normal ... people depend psychologically on their religious beliefs to a certain extent," Ma said. "If they are dying, for example, they know that they have nothing to fear."

"Religion empowers people ... to be more optimistic and accepting of their treatment program," he said. "It helps them face up to times of illness, and also to face up to their own mortality."

An employee who answered the phone at the Zhejiang provincial religious affairs bureau declined to comment, saying they didn't know much about the issue.

The ban comes after a province-wide crackdown on churches and an urban "improvement" campaign which has seen crosses removed from dozens of buildings.

Earlier this year, Zhejiang Protestant pastors and married couple Bao Guohua and Xing Wenxiang of the Holy Love Christian church were sentenced to 14 and 12 years' imprisonment respectively by the Wucheng District People's Court in Zhejiang's Jinhua city after they opposed the removal of crosses.

Police-run detention centers in the province have also denied family members’ requests to deliver Bibles and food to the detained, according to the U.S. State Department's 2015 religious freedom report.




'Hostile forces'

Meanwhile, the authorities view many forms of religion as dangerous foreign imports, with Zhejiang officials warning last year against the "infiltration of Western hostile forces" in the form of religion.

And the crackdown looks set to intensify and widen to other regions of China.

Zhejiang has been lauded by the ruling Chinese Communist Party's ideological arm, the United Front Work Department, for "tackling ... the difficult-to-tackle problems, grasping norms, strong management and promoting harmony and stability," according to a report on the official website of the State Administration for Religious Affairs.

Furthermore, this "new situation in religious work" will require an even stronger policy response, the article said, adding that responses will be "problem-oriented, targeted, and pay attention to guidance."

Bob Fu, founder of the U.S.-based Christian rights group ChinaAid, said the Zhejiang crackdown is now being extended into other provinces, including Anhui and the northern region of Inner Mongolia.

"The Chinese government is taking its persecution of religious believers to another level," Fu said.

"They are doing it in the name of the rule of law, but actually it's very clear that there is an element of wanting all religion to be Chinese in character," Fu told RFA in an interview on Tuesday.

"The international community should be aware that are stepping up the pressure on religious practice, so that there is gradually less and less freedom," he said.

The State Department appears to agree with Fu, saying in its latest report that Beijing continues to exercise state control over religion, restricting the personal freedom of religious believers.

It cited a 2012 Pew Research Center report estimating that China is now home to some 68 million Protestants, of whom 23 million worship in state-affiliated churches, and some nine million Catholics, 5.7 million of whom are in state-sponsored organizations.

Reported by Lee Lai for RFA's Cantonese Service, and by Qiao Long for the Mandarin Service. Translated and written in English by Luisetta Mudie.


http://www.rfa.org/english/news/china/religious-08182016132355.html

fuck  china government

caonimabi !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

I feel bad for those people crying, who have an emotional attachment to their religion, but at the same time religion is so dumb. At least it's not one religion in power trying to destroy another, because then the lower IQ members of that religion will feel justified in hurting those Christians. With the Chinese government I get the vibe that it's more of a practical, lets ban all religion to prevent future chaos kind of thing. It's feels like it's more about being emotionless practical vs, obsessively following another religion causing rage against another religion. It's hard to explain.

more horrible is that the world keeps in silence when china government did this kind of bullshits  >:( >:( >:( >:(