Bitcoin Forum

you got the newsletter too :)
they sent it to me many times :(

Cool looking equipment tho! and posting it all with the cool pictures and all is a cool marketing "gimmick" :)

Darn you beat me to it!

Yeah that one Reflow machine is roughly $30K from what I could find after a quick search.

No idea as to how much the pick and place or other machines are.  Guessing at least as expensive.

Well that's good then as they should be able to pump out pieces much faster once they get up to training and speed in learning the new equipment.

Got the newsletter in my inbox as well.  Unfortunately, I wasn't impressed since all the images shown were examples and none from their facility.  Even if they took some "in-the-works" shots.. it would be more reassuring than the current newsletter.

What are they using a light microscope and fan ducting for?

"BFL plan B"

...

!

I admit that the ESSEMTEC one cheated me, I tought it be authentic.

Here is a recently completed auction of the Essemtec reflow oven pictured.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ESSEMTEC-RO300FC-REFLOW-OVEN-/320989507198?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4abc772e7e (http://www.ebay.com/itm/ESSEMTEC-RO300FC-REFLOW-OVEN-/320989507198?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4abc772e7e)

Is there any way BFL could prove they won the auction?

It would be great to see photos of these devices actually in the hands of BFL and producing ASICs.  Hopefully that's what we'll see at least during/after the site-visit that they're setting up.

I agree. It would be great. Now only fake images, same empty promises and no proof of their work.  They know how to attract customers and destroy the competitors, I hope they do as good hardware.

BFL_Office - 10-05-2012, 02:11 PM  Reply
Because they're in transit. The announcement was made after our purchase. Once the machines are fully installed, we'll be happy to flood you with photos and assembly videos

Who has an account on ebay? Someone could ask who was the buyer.

I sent a message to the seller, linking him to the announcement, pointing out the image, and mentioning the skepticism surrounding BFL.  I asked if the machine was being shipped to somewhere in the Kansas City area. 

Everything still checks out as the auction was won Sept. 28 and it is reasonable for it to still be in transit.

You guys come up with something new every other day on how BFL is scamming us. Get some proof or GTFO. If you went around doing this in the real world, you'd be sued for slander in a second.

I hope BFL sues you guys for defamation, then maybe some of you will think twice before posting BS without any proof.

You guys come up with something new every other day on how BFL is scamming us. Get some proof or GTFO. If you went around doing this in the real world, you'd be sued for slander in a second.

I hope BFL sues you guys for defamation, then maybe some of you will think twice before posting BS without any proof.

Ummm, BFL isn't selling the items?

Ummm, BFL isn't selling the items?

Email office@butterflylabs.com.  We get hundreds of emails per day, sometimes I can take awhile to get to yours if it's been a particularly heavy day.  

(Yes, we get ~400 emails per day on average, sometimes much more than that)

If this really were a scam  and they got away with it, it would be one of the most genius and elaborate scams ever conducted on the internet. They pretend to be a real business and sell real products only to, more than a year later, take a bunch of money and run even though they are allowing bank wires for payment. Maybe the three other competitors are also in it. They even got Inaba in it. This is just false flag 9/11 all over again.

These people have already confirmed they are a legitimate business for a long time. Many of the scam conspiracy theories have been debunked over and over. There is zero evidence that this is a scam. If you really think it's a scam then just don't order. It's pretty simple. There's no reason to spam every single BFL thread with your nonsense.

+This. Get over it

I would get over it if it wasn't for the fact that I want bitcoin to succeed and these perpetual scams are going to kill it if we let it. The increase of scams in even the last month or two is huge. Sometimes I can not believe the blind trust people have in certain forum members/businesses. I remember saying a couple months ago if nothing happened with bitcoinica we would have a huge influx of major scams, as there are almost 0 consequences for pulling off a million dollar scam. Just since bitcoinica we have had pirateat40, Matthews default, Hashkings default, bitfloor frozen accounts, glbse down and who knows what I forgot. As time goes on people lose faith, but there are still those people who cling to it almost indefinitely.

Also how was Sonny's first scam much less elaborate than this one? anybody remember those fake used car warranties? that was pretty elaborate. Elaborate scams do happen quite often.

"and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods." - Adolf Hitler

edit: fixed wrongly quoted...

let's see

Let's see indeed.  If they were purchased on Wednesday the 3rd, they ought to be arriving around Monday the 8th if they ship from within the US.  I can't imagine BFL waiting for slow international shipping.  They are on a schedule after all.

I'll wager 5 BTC that no such photos show up any time next week (thru the 13th) that are not obvious fakes or highly questionable.  Certainly none that provide a solid assurance that BFL is in fact in possession of and operating or setting up these machines for operation.

(Post in the thread if you wanna take the other side of this wager.)

I accept your bet. Someone quote please.

To be clear, I am betting 5 BTC that BFL posts pictures of their new equipment before 10/13/2012.

from:  https://forums.butterflylabs.com/content.php/120-BFL-Invests-in-Assembly-Equipment?page=2#comments
"BFL_Josh - 10-05-2012, 06:56 PM  Reply
Those pictures are the pictures we based the purchase off of. We did not inquire as to the GPS coordinates of their origin and assume that the pictures represent the actual product. If they don't, well then, we will deal with that then."

What will be the next explanation? "Seller cheated us" ? I hope not. We are waiting for photos of equipment in your company. good luck

They could kill tons of rumors just with that alone. (Please include any Exif Data and original file names!)

You must be new here, so let me answer this for you:  No it wouldn't.

Have they actually taken any pictures of their offices? (Outside and Interior?)

Someone might want to ask BFL for some reference photos to allay fears of the community.

It would also shed some light on what the operation looks like on the inside. Some of those machines consume quite a bit of power when they are in full operation. I assume your standard office space might not have the juice to run all that equipment. (Then again, I could be wrong)

Has anyone actually ever seen the photos of the inside of their offices or warehouse/receiving location? I know this is a strange question to ask of a company....but considering they are a small company and they actually participate in user forums....this does not sound out of the line.

They could kill tons of rumors just with that alone. (Please include any Exif Data and original file names!)

Shouldn't you guys be on some fake moon landing aliens website?

A true conspiracy theorist would say that bfl products don't exist at all.

You must be new here, so let me answer this for you:  No it wouldn't.

I don't know why you think that not believing everything we hear from BFL labs makes us some crazies or conspiracy theorists. Its usually safer to question things when something looks fishy. I did when I seen that the photos did not look like they were taken at the same place. Different lighting, different flooring, different quality photos, on top of the fact that a usual scam technique is to steal pictures off other websites and call them your own. And I'm using the information I found and lowering my possibility of their release. I used to have gigaming shares to hedge the release of BFL asic, now (conveniently) I didn't think it was necessary any longer and sold them. A true conspiracy theorist would say that bfl products don't exist at all.

WTF is wrong with all these people!? I swear I have met the weirdest bunch of freaking weirdos ever since I have started participating in this community. Like I said before, some of you guys seriously beat the XBOX live crowd hands down and that is really saying something because their are some messed up people in that particular community so you freaks deserve a cookie of something.
Anyways, why do you care whether Butterfly Labs is big or small, clean or dirty, LLC or Sole proprietorship? Why would any of these things matter? Why would you waste your life away on investigating useless conspiracies as these? I don't even own a BFL product yet(I wish I owned 5 singles for the last 5 months), and I could care less how clean the owner's ass is after he wipes it or how many times he shakes his pecker after he takes a leak! Would any of this shit affect my hashrate and therefore would it affect my profit? Hell No! So STFU and Get over it! I don't care if homosexual pornos are being made just on the other side of the production warehouse as long as no bodily fluids make contact with my product I'm ok with whatever goes on there. Shouldn't delivery, performance, and warranty be the only concerns we have? Btw superfastkyle, didn't you just say you were over it yesterday? What has changed since then? Just sayin

Have you tried to actually do this before? From the way your talking to me, either you have done it and it failed (for some reason?) or you haven't and aren't willing to try.

I only know that one of your former products allegedly under performed and didn't live up to expectations. So I understand that angst in "these people". Beyond that, considering you have actually delivered products before to a market....why do you guys have such an incredibly bad reputation? Your company suffers from a very bad image seemingly beyond that bad product launch.

People are doubting that you guys are even a legitimate company. Why don't you hire someone to do the PR work to turn it around? Or at least provide the contradictory evidence that forces naysayers to back down?

The people behind Avalon seem to have also delivered products to market as you have. They don't face anywhere near the same scrutiny and PR problems that your company does. Why is that? You might have a ton of orders but anytime anything [even tiny things] goes wrong it will just add to the bad PR.

Don't get mad, hire some professional, figure out what you can do to clean up that pervasive image of your company and solicit the help of forums Admins to intervene if someone says something which is verifiably false.

Your company [BFL] looks like it has a lot more business and orders in its pipeline than any other. But after reading through the community your bad PR has "scared me away" from placing an order. If too many people are saying there is something wrong, then there is probably something to it. <---That is the pervasive impression I got.

Imagine that, I am going to buy from some company in CHINA...than feel confident in a company closer to home. That is the state of things from my corner.

To someone whom is seeing and reading that inundation of bad PR [whether it be true or actually very false and baseless], what does a lifetime of warranty and higher performance rating actually mean if most everyone is constantly hammering on about how many bad points BFL has? You would have to either own BFL hardware and by virtue of experience know of the reliability OR trust in what others have said.

It makes it feel more like "a gamble" with 1.3k (or equivalent bitcoins) than it really should be. I want to buy from your company what I need for mining. But damn, considering what has been the focus of things, it makes it feel much more risky than it actually probably is.

Yes, I am new to this community.

Have you tried to actually do this before? From the way your talking to me, either you have done it and it failed (for some reason?) or you haven't and aren't willing to try.

Do you have a PR person? [a Professional]

I only know that one of your former products allegedly under performed and didn't live up to expectations. So I understand that angst in "these people". Beyond that, considering you have actually delivered products before to a market....why do you guys have such an incredibly bad reputation? Your company suffers from a very bad image seemingly beyond that bad product launch.

People are doubting that you guys are even a legitimate company. Why don't you hire someone to do the PR work to turn it around? Or at least provide the contradictory evidence that forces naysayers to back down?

I am going to be asking the exact same question of Avalon. I expect they will be forthcoming about their operation.

--------------------------

The people behind Avalon seem to have also delivered products to market as you have. They don't face anywhere near the same scrutiny and PR problems that your company does. Why is that? You might have a ton of orders but anytime anything [even tiny things] goes wrong it will just add to the bad PR.

Don't get mad, hire some professional, figure out what you can do to clean up that pervasive image of your company and solicit the help of forums Admins to intervene if someone says something which is verifiably false.

---------------------------

Full Disclosure: I am buying one of the Avalon Units. Originally, before I surfed this forum, I considered BFL the best option. Yet after reading through the forum I have decided to go with a company who users are less wary of. (A positive reputation)

Your company [BFL] looks like it has a lot more business and orders in its pipeline than any other. But after reading through the community your bad PR has "scared me away" from placing an order. If too many people are saying there is something wrong, then there is probably something to it. <---That is the pervasive impression I got.

Imagine that, I am going to buy from some company in CHINA...than feel confident in a company closer to home. That is the state of things from my corner.

If something [further] goes wrong in one of BFLs products what does that solidify in my mind?

To someone whom is seeing and reading that inundation of bad PR [whether it be true or actually very false and baseless], what does a lifetime of warranty and higher performance rating actually mean if most everyone is constantly hammering on about how many bad points BFL has? You would have to either own BFL hardware and by virtue of experience know of the reliability OR trust in what others have said.

It makes it feel more like "a gamble" with 1.3k (or equivalent bitcoins) than it really should be. I want to buy from your company what I need for mining. But damn, considering what has been the focus of things, it makes it feel much more risky than it actually probably is.

I am going to the company in China simply because they have a better reputation (or lack thereof). (even if it is baseless)

That is a very messed up situation!

Do you have a PR person? [a Professional]

...

People are doubting that you guys are even a legitimate company. Why don't you hire someone to do the PR work to turn it around?

Many of you on bitcointalk.org forums know me as “Inaba,” the operator of the Eclipse Mining Consortium bitcoin pool.  In approximately two weeks I will also be wearing a different hat.  As you may be able to guess from my new forum name, I will be working with and for BFL.  Effective August 13, 2012 I have accepted the position of Chief Operating Officer of BF Labs INC. (Butterfly Labs)

BFL is the clear technical leader in the FPGA and upcoming ASIC mining space.  As a direct result, the company has grown very quickly over the past year.  Unfortunately, its customer service, which was initially very good, did not scale fast enough, which caused customer relations and transparency to suffer. BFL is eager to improve and one of my top responsibilities in this new position is to focus on that specific issue.  I am, have always been and will always be committed to good customer service and transparency when it comes to bitcoin in general and the daily operations of related activities.  This is where I will be focusing much of my initial attention...

WTF is wrong with all these people!? I swear I have met the weirdest bunch of freaking weirdos ever since I have started participating in this community. Like I said before, some of you guys seriously beat the XBOX live crowd hands down and that is really saying something because their are some messed up people in that particular community so you freaks deserve a cookie of something.
Anyways, why do you care whether Butterfly Labs is big or small, clean or dirty, LLC or Sole proprietorship? Why would any of these things matter? Why would you waste your life away on investigating useless conspiracies as these? I don't even own a BFL product yet(I wish I owned 5 singles for the last 5 months), and I could care less how clean the owner's ass is after he wipes it or how many times he shakes his pecker after he takes a leak! Would any of this shit affect my hashrate and therefore would it affect my profit? Hell No! So STFU and Get over it! I don't care if homosexual pornos are being made just on the other side of the production warehouse as long as no bodily fluids make contact with my product I'm ok with whatever goes on there. Shouldn't delivery, performance, and warranty be the only concerns we have? Btw superfastkyle, didn't you just say you were over it yesterday? What has changed since then? Just sayin

See that's the thing, most industries don't even provide information. We provide some and somehow it's "shady."  Whatever.

You'd be bitching and moaning if it didn't provide the information.  You're bitching and moaning because we do provide the information.  No win all the way around.

Second, the "firmware" upgrade logic to be honest doesn't really make sense. A 50% performance boost just by upgrading firmware? People reading this will obviously be suspicious, my speculation is that you are simply adding more chips than previously estimated to keep your devices competitive, but of course you can't say that since you are trying to make people think you have a working prototype (which in all likelyhood doesn't exist, and won't exist until we see actual devices).

Our board has always had 8 chips (or space for 8, depending on the product).  That has not changed.  Your tinfoil hat bullshit is wearing thin.

So we do.  "Oh shit you are lying because they are eBay pictures!"

Don't tell us until it's actually ready.  "Oh shit!  You are lying because if you actually were making these things, you'd show us where you're at right now!"

Btw superfastkyle, didn't you just say you were over it yesterday? What has changed since then? Just sayin

What is hurting the reputation of BFL is the deliberate spread of misinformation designed to make you guys seem farther along in manufacturing these guys than reality.

Then guess what?  Wait.  Either by them releasing no product or them eventually releasing a product with specs, you win.  

No other hardware manufacturer releases the kinds of information this forum asks for until their product is ready.  You might get a leaked GPU shot from China but all chip vendors release general figures, and then a presentation upon when the product is final.

I understand the difference between cautious vs complacent, but again, don't like it?  Don't order.  Done.

Don't get me wrong.  I understand the paranoia of wanting to know how everything is coming along when lots of funds are on the line.  But since any company for good reason can't tell you everything, you'll have to evaluate for yourself as to if BFL is a good investment for you.  Many here so far feel it is.  If you don't feel it fits your requirements for peace of mind, go somewhere else.

Then guess what?  Wait.  Either by them releasing no product or them eventually releasing a product with specs, you win.  

No other hardware manufacturer releases the kinds of information this forum asks for until their product is ready.  You might get a leaked GPU shot from China but all chip vendors release general figures, and then a presentation upon when the product is final.

I understand the difference between cautious vs complacent, but again, don't like it?  Don't order.  Done.

Don't get me wrong.  I understand the paranoia of wanting to know how everything is coming along when lots of funds are on the line.  But since any company for good reason can't tell you everything, you'll have to evaluate for yourself as to if BFL is a good investment for you.  Many here so far feel it is.  If you don't feel it fits your requirements for peace of mind, go somewhere else.

Well, I haven't put down any money for a Jalapeno specifically because of all these rumors. I don't necessarily distrust BFL, but all these rumors make me nervous. Especially the way anyone who represents BFL seems to treat it, with a mix of condescension and irritation. This is exactly the same way of talking I remember from high school when you would call out a braggart. Inaba says they've tried to assuage the doubters, but I've never seen a post-production picture of a  Jalapeno, at least, not to my knowledge, and the BFL labs page just seems a bit sterile. The drivers page lists off those other drivers, but they don't do anything. It seems shady when combined with all those other things that keep popping up. It just makes me nervous.

What you guys REALLY need is a complete disclosure thread, where the posters are limited to BFL people, and you can post all of your legitimate information there, with all these attempts you said you made, photographs of the office, etc, where you can refer anyone who wants to know about you guys. I mean, it could only help.

Is the 1 chip system he talks about the (formerly) 3.5 model? Or is it the 40?

------------------

If he is talking about a 3.5 having only 1 chip and the 8 belongs to a 40...then:

3.5Gh X 8 = 28Gh
4.0Gh X 8 = 32Gh
4.5Gh X 8 = 36Gh
5.0Gh X 8 = 40Gh
5.5Gh X 8 = 44Gh
6.0Gh X 8 = 48Gh
6.5Gh X 8 = 52Gh
7.0Gh X 8 = 56Gh
7.5Gh X 8 = 60Gh
8.0Gh X 8 = 64Gh

(Clockrate -> unknown)

Perhaps their ASICs are overclockable/underclockable? (I Don't know much of ASIC technology)

What you guys REALLY need is a complete disclosure thread, where the posters are limited to BFL people, and you can post all of your legitimate information there, with all these attempts you said you made, photographs of the office, etc, where you can refer anyone who wants to know about you guys. I mean, it could only help.

There is no complete disclosure at this time.  There is far too much at stake to give full disclosure.  In ANY OTHER INDUSTRY this is perfectly normal.  The only "industry" that it is not considered "normal" is this twisted version of reality that's called BitcoinTalk.  I am really sorry that you don't get full disclosure, but when it could mean the difference between being successful and failure, you're not going to get it.  When it no longer matters who knows what information, you'll get that information, but until that time, it would be suicidal to give "full disclosure."  Why would we invest so much money just to give a recipe/how-to book to the competition?  Why?  Seriously, answer me that.  Why would we do that?  What financial/business sense does that make under any circumstance?

The boards have always had an 8 chip capacity.  That has never changed from day one.


This is what I'm talking about.  I just posted in this very thread, a few posts up but you chose to ignore it:

There is no complete disclosure at this time.  There is far too much at stake to give full disclosure.  In ANY OTHER INDUSTRY this is perfectly normal.  The only "industry" that it is not considered "normal" is this twisted version of reality that's called BitcoinTalk.  I am really sorry that you don't get full disclosure, but when it could mean the difference between being successful and failure, you're not going to get it.  When it no longer matters who knows what information, you'll get that information, but until that time, it would be suicidal to give "full disclosure."  Why would we invest so much money just to give a recipe/how-to book to the competition?  Why?  Seriously, answer me that.  Why would we do that?  What financial/business sense does that make under any circumstance?

That page gives me an error/test page, some sort of 'Parallels' advert.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/content.php

that works.

I am not asking for full disclosure. I am merely asking to stop blatantly lying (firmware upgrade) or implying things that aren't true (that fab equipment was already set up).

It does, but there's next to nothing there. FAQ... empty. News... empty. Documentation... empty.
Not seeing any useful information there, either.

And this is why no amount of information will satisfy anyone.  Over 1000 posts and a number of articles disclosing the information we are ready to disclose and its' "nothing" ..  Whatever.  You guys just go right on wearing those tinfoil hats.

I'm on your side Inaba.... there are a lot of unreasonable tin foil hats always on your case, and you guys don't deserve it.

That being said, please post pics of your new equipment when you get it, I have a $50 bet going.

Thanx bro!

So.. does a 40% increase in clock rate sound reasonable? Especially considering their constraints around temperature and power?

Yes, one of the first FPGA products out, before people understood the unique requirements that bitcoin puts on integrated circuits that you don't find in basically any other industry.

People just HATE the fact that we seem to be able to do things no one else can with our hardware (even now, our FPGA miners are the fastest, cheapest mining devices available.).

I am not asking for full disclosure. I am merely asking to stop blatantly lying (firmware upgrade) or implying things that aren't true (that fab equipment was already set up).

Yeah, you bought some FPGAs really cheap. Big deal. Design-wise, the Single sucked! I mean, the case was pretty, until you had to put a honkin' fan underneath it to keep it from burning up. Here, look at it again.

Yes, you were noobs, but only because you didn't pay attention to the existing FPGA products that were on the market before you.


Yeah, you bought some FPGAs really cheap. Big deal. Design-wise, the Single sucked! I mean, the case was pretty, until you had to put a honkin' fan underneath it to keep it from burning up. Here, look at it again.

http://www.butterflylabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Rev-1-2-3.jpg

What a kludge.

Please provide citations or stop spreading yet more misinformation.  This is why the forums are useless.  You make statements that you have absolutely no basis in reality to make.


And this is why no amount of information will satisfy anyone.  Over 1000 posts and a number of articles disclosing the information we are ready to disclose and its' "nothing" ..  Whatever.  You guys just go right on wearing those tinfoil hats.

You can see my earlier posts which are direct links to your website regard sources.

No basis in reality? You really want me to believe that you can BY MERELY adjusting the firmware (for a chip on a device that isn't even complete yet) are able to achieve a 40% increase in hash rate while maintaining the SAME power and temperature outputs? Really? who is out of touch with reality more here?


Showing pictures of equipment you don't yet have doesn't imply you have the fab set up operational? You would have just let everyone assume you have the equipment already and set up except someone called you out.

Have you seen Cablepairs place of buisness/pics of products or ngzhang's or Deepbits or ANYONE else's  ???

Thought so,now :

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h148/Bigblock462/shutupal7.jpg

Well, they all have a nice little defined backlog of information. I personally prefer Bitminter, the admin is very clear and tells us what's going on with the pool. He also responds to our questions in a friendly and complete manner.

Can't find a fault in my reasoning so you result to insults. Makes sense.

And I don't have anything to call cablepair/ngzhang/deepbit out because they don't employ the same sneaky tactics as BFL does. The hint is if you are generally honest and what you say makes sense people won't call you out.

Yes "they" do,so does BFL,even a pic of one thier products (may change but a pic nonetheless).No one else has pic yet of any product.

What pic is this?  You mean the rendering?

Pics of FPGA products don't count.

I know I say this at the risk of sounding butthurt, but Inaba just seems short tempered and quick to make rude comments. In anyone trying to convince me that they're legitimate, this makes me less trustful than ever. I understand that you guys are dealing with a truly huge mass of rumors about your product, but I just wanted to read up so I can form an educated opinion. The problem is that there seems to be almost no information whatsoever about your product or anything relating to it that I can use to form an opinion. There isn't much information from any of the other ASIC-offering companies, but they don't have tons of rumors flying about them, either. I was interested in a Jalapeno, because I could afford one, but all this vitriol and conspiracy business has really put me off. I don't know if I can trust BFL because of what I've seen here. I previously had no concerns at all, but Inaba always seems evasive or abusive, rather than explaining, or explaining why he cannot explain. All I want is a thread from BFL's point of view on the whole topic, but I'm not getting anything. Everything I've been linked to has been exceedingly useless. It makes me feel like I'm being sent on a wild goose chase, and then told to shut up because I'm in the same thread as more extreme people.

Yes a rendering of the Jalapeno,Inaba say's its pretty close at this moment.But who knows,it could change.

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h148/Bigblock462/Jalapenorendering.jpg

I know I say this at the risk of sounding butthurt, but Inaba just seems short tempered and quick to make rude comments. In anyone trying to convince me that they're legitimate, this makes me less trustful than ever. I understand that you guys are dealing with a truly huge mass of rumors about your product, but I just wanted to read up so I can form an educated opinion. The problem is that there seems to be almost no information whatsoever about your product or anything relating to it that I can use to form an opinion. There isn't much information from any of the other ASIC-offering companies, but they don't have tons of rumors flying about them, either. I was interested in a Jalapeno, because I could afford one, but all this vitriol and conspiracy business has really put me off. I don't know if I can trust BFL because of what I've seen here. I previously had no concerns at all, but Inaba always seems evasive or abusive, rather than explaining, or explaining why he cannot explain. All I want is a thread from BFL's point of view on the whole topic, but I'm not getting anything. Everything I've been linked to has been exceedingly useless. It makes me feel like I'm being sent on a wild goose chase, and then told to shut up because I'm in the same thread as more extreme people.

Seems about right for something that should roughly (speculation) consume only 4.5watts of power. The rendering doesn't give any hints that it is actively cooled. Perhaps this is why they could not "bump" the chip to the same degree as the 60Gh/s system.

Found this old photo of their "Production line" for the FPGA-based Mini Rigs:

http://www.butterflylabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/IMG_3122.jpg

I wish I could find the one again of the old QA lady with the soldering iron.

Edit: Also some customer photos here of the inside of an assembled one: http://imgur.com/a/Uanjr

And even Avalon have acknowledged that BFL's specs are very possible and that they see them as a serious competitor.

Before BFL's competition came along, the tin foil hat guys claimed that such specs are impossible and that the whole thing is a scam. Now they either find new reasons or I guess they assume that all of the competition and even forum moderators and other major people in the bitcoin community are all in the conspiracy together. Let's ignore the fact that these people have been accepting bank wires and paypal payments and that their full names have been disclosed to the public.

Being skeptical is one thing. Maybe they aren't as cool and collected as they seem. Maybe they are far behind schedule and won't ship the products until much later. Some people have some legitimate questions that I'm sure BFL will soon answer. But attacking them over every tiny little thing and accusing them of being major scammers with ZERO evidence and despite the fact that they have already proven themselves to be a legitimate business shipping real products... I just can't wrap my head around how people can be this stupid.

This same shit happened over at Open Pandora. People accused them of being scammers. People said their product would never ship. Yet thousands of people now own and love Pandoras. This same shit happened with Pier Solar. Oh, it's vaporware. They are just going to run with the money. But I now have a factory sealed copy of Pier Solar sitting on my shelf. This same shit happens everywhere. Do people get scammed with bitcoins? Sure. But the successful scammers always do it in a very smart way where they won't get caught. How on earth would BFL get away with this? Someone should make a documentary about this shit all Loose Change style. I'd watch it and eat popcorn while my shiny new BFL product is mining me some bitcoins.

I also found this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66KHMmbnQ_Y

Seems the idea that BFL doesn't have any infrastructure is not based on anything real.

And even Avalon have acknowledged that BFL's specs are very possible and that they see them as a serious competitor.

I also found this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66KHMmbnQ_Y

Seems the idea that BFL doesn't have any infrastructure is not based on anything real.

How does that prove anything? BFL hasn't made anything in house yet, they just put the pieces together. Once their equipment is set up it will be the first time they can do in house board fab.

The only infrastructure shown in the content linked above would appear to be a couple guys assembling products on a table along with their brown-bag lunch, with some Nexel shelves in the background full of parts.  Not even so much as an ESD bracelet visible.

Certainly nothing like the facilities pictured in the link in the OP, which claims "These units are currently being installed in our new facility."  Then a couple days later, when called out on the origin of the photos, states "they're in transit".

There is that risk as you say. They can still make tons of mistakes or find that hardware problems crop up during final assembly. I am not necessarily disagreeing with you.

To me (at least IMO) they seem to have some kind of past experience in shipping equipment that people order. There was an idea being foisted on the forums that they weren't capable of such. So this is (for me at least) a notch in the right direction.

Like you say, they may eventually deliver a working ASIC machine just like any of the other 5 (4?) competitors. It is a major roll of the dice on who will get through the fabrication process without any costly mistakes. Like the other member I am looking for mining equipment and the truth behind the rumors.

I don't care if the mining equipment has BFL, Avalon or BASIC logos. I just don't want to lose money like anyone else.

Right now there are tons of FUD floating around and some of it seems baseless. The Ebay thing was one of the things that made me pause and reconsider. Do I doubt they purchased the equipment? Well, time will tell when they gloat about how many devices they can put together in-house or at their local <insert building type here>.

If they don't gloat about their expensive purchase when/if it arrives, then I am sure more than *I* would be worried. Personally I would be more worried that they actually use it correctly than anything else. Perhaps you can put in a request to have Inaba pose for the camera? hehe

I've been mining for 6 months with my gaming rig, as I don't have the capital to invest in a dedicated mining system. I slowly accrued fractions of a bitcoin mining a few hours a day with a 5670 before upgrading to a 6870. I've read through hundreds of pages on this forum about how the entire system works. I'm a college student studying electrical engineering, and I'm very good at electronics design and dabble in python coding. I read through the source for poclbm and figured that phoenix is more efficient and a better overall system. I have earned a couple of hundred dollars from mining, and if I'm going to put it into an ASIC, I'm going to be damn sure it's worth it. I'm a low risk trader. I'm not betting my hard earned money on anything less than 100%. I'm not a newbie, I just want a concrete answer.

Well take the Single for example,upon release it was said to give 832mh/s.Then came the firmware updates that allowed it to hash up to 896mh/s.

http://www.butterflylabs.com/drivers/

Maybe they intended to do the same thing with the ASIC's  ???

Dear sir, could you please point me to your wonderful FPGA mining product so that I may purchase it?  What's that? You don't have one?  Your only talent is being an idiot?  Oh I'm sorry, here:

Yes, one of the first FPGA products out, before people understood the unique requirements that bitcoin puts on integrated circuits that you don't find in basically any other industry.

It isn't on the C4-115 chip, but for the tiny C4-22 it might be. Check with PowerPlay. Make sure no heatsink and no fan is selected, and the toggle rate is ~65%. See what it says the JT is.

I can't wait for my BFL SC to turn up.  

Here is a recently completed auction of the Essemtec reflow oven pictured.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ESSEMTEC-RO300FC-REFLOW-OVEN-/320989507198?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4abc772e7e (http://www.ebay.com/itm/ESSEMTEC-RO300FC-REFLOW-OVEN-/320989507198?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4abc772e7e)

Is there any way BFL could prove they won the auction?

Q:    i got for this item UPS quote $56 for CA 92618. It is not clear from listing, is packaging/handling extra, or $56 is S/H total? thanks.   Sep-21-12
A:    Dear Itest10, I am sorry for the unclear shipping cost, I am just helping a friend liquidating her manufacturing equipments and do not have experience with selling nor shipping. The packaging/handling is just $16.00 dollars more, the cost is for the thick box and packing bubble wraps. Thank you for your interest.

Excellent seller, very helpful and kind hearted, highly recommend!!!!   Buyer: mynhung2006 ( 93)     Sep-06-11 12:59
    SMT Convection Oven (#170688982887)   US $5,000.00

My favorite (other than mine) is gigavps's first Single.  Check pic 3 for lols.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=53530.msg763375#msg763375

The ghetto engineer in me loves this.  The OCD engineer in me constantly worries about losing a finger when moving a Single.

Jeez, they could at least have put a grille over that thing.  You know, like ATX power supply exhaust fans tend to have.

Maybe they're rolling in so much dough that the potential for a lost finger from some customer's curious three-year-old and the resulting lawsuit is of no great concern.

My concern level went from yellow to orange when they raised  power their chips by 50%.
My concern level went from orange to red when I heard about the lifetime warranty on a product that was never tested. Any serious company says it's suicide.

BFL's PR has become so colored as to be impossible.
No one could ever raise the power chips of 50% - month before the sale, without increasing power consumption and without extreme overclocking. Rumors about firmware is funny, multicore is a very advanced and expensive technology. BFL offers what can not offer big companies such as Intel, NVidia, AMD.... This makes the BFL is for me an incredible company. Of course, I wish them luck but I'm not crazy enough to buy preorder. I'll wait until they have a finished product. I am also concerned about creating PR using fake photos. I am also shocked unfriendly treatment of customers who ask too many questions - they still want to invest a lot of money, sometimes their life savings, they just want to be careful. I am also worried that a month before shipment, they are not have  finished product. Where is the time for testing? How can you sell untested device? 24 hours is not enough.  Every serious company will be  laughing of this . I was also worried that the average time to develop ASIC chips (all  phases) takes an average of 18 months, as a small company you are working suspiciously fast. People have a lot of concerns, you as a company should try to resolve this instead of unkindly reply.

You really think one of those could take off a finger? XD
I end up clipping my finger in one of those all the time when I'm doing maintenance on a running box. It just stings a bit. Rarely bruises and never breaks the skin. A burn is more a risk than the fan!

Perhaps you are missing the point that their previous specs were only guessed (in a very conservative way). And until they got the first ASIC assembled they didn't managed to know about the real specs they would get.

Assembling an ASIC is very expensive, so you can't assemble a "beta" version of the chip just for testing. You have to assemble the final production-ready chip and therefore you don't know the real specs until the final stages of production

Great seller, shrink warpped unit and help load it for free, will buy from again   Seller: moonray ( 2927)     May-17-11 18:29
    -- (#260780101626)

Specification of chips is well known in the design phase. Well known is  number of logic gates and technological process - it is easy to calculate the maximum operating frequency at  maximum safe temperature. Calculation error may amount to a few % , not 50% !!!
This is not FPGA  so you can just buy ASIC in a store and then check  performance. ASICs are built from scratch. If I'm wrong correct me.

I guess such calculations are not so easy to do, and depend a lot on the manufacturing process (Ex: 40nm vs 28nm). So probably they didn't have done right until now. It could be even possible that the original calculations were done with a very conservative manufacturing process (40nm) and finally they managed, to manufacture the chips with a better technology (28nm).

I guess such calculations are not so easy to do, and depend a lot on the manufacturing process (Ex: 40nm vs 28nm). So probably they didn't have done right until now. It could be even possible that the original calculations were done with a very conservative manufacturing process (40nm) and finally they managed, to manufacture the chips with a better technology (28nm).

You are dreaming if you think BFL (or anyone else for that matter) is using 28 or 40 nm technology.

Why you say that is impossible? Nowadays practically all semiconductor manufacturing plants have technology to manufacturer chips with 28nm.

Of course they are not building the chips (that's just impossible) they are outsourcing the manufacturing process to companies like TSMC

For example Altera (a very well-know FPGA manufacturer) offer a service that allows you to copy your design from an Altera FPGA to an ASIC with 28nm or 40nm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altera#ASICs

http://www.altera.com/devices/asic/hardcopy-asics/about/hrd-index.html

If NRE is on the order of >$100,000 USD for 130 nm ASICs, how can you expect BFL to afford 28/40nm type stuff that only the largest of companies can afford?

It would be nice to know how much nm will use the manufacturing process of the BF ASICs.

I want the one with the smaller Enn Emms^{1 (http://www.google.com/search?q=bigger+geebees)}.

Hoping they will answer:

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/showthread.php/95-About-ASIC-manufacturing-process-XXXnm

Hoping they will answer:
https://forums.butterflylabs.com/showthread.php/95-About-ASIC-manufacturing-process-XXXnm

I bet they won't reveal this yet. I wouldn't reveal. Near all buyers don't care and the competitors could have an edge.

What I dont get is that they are using a machine that costs 4,499 usd on eBay to manufacture millions of dollars wort of goods??!!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ESSEMTEC-RO300FC-REFLOW-OVEN-/320989507198?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4abc772e7e&nma=true&si=OJ7anbJ%2FAqbSVi60eILcRUvNe54%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Can someone pls explain this? ???

What I dont get is that they are using a machine that costs 4,499 usd on eBay to manufacture millions of dollars wort of goods??!!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ESSEMTEC-RO300FC-REFLOW-OVEN-/320989507198?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4abc772e7e&nma=true&si=OJ7anbJ%2FAqbSVi60eILcRUvNe54%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Can someone pls explain this? ???

instead of highlighting the errors and be rewarded with inaba replies of tin foil hat troll, instead of actual answers. i will not mention the errors already mentioned, but instead just ask some simple questions.

1. does BFL have a finished ASIC prototype that they are testing right now ready to mass/batch produce once quality control checks are done

2. has BFL already done part of question one and already batch producing finalised ASICS.

3. if yes to question 2 are any of them currently going through a burn in process either solo mining or pool mining. and if so which?

4. does BFL have any images of CURRENT workshop equipment that are not third party sources (ebay/google images)

What I dont get is that they are using a machine that costs 4,499 usd on eBay to manufacture millions of dollars wort of goods??!!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ESSEMTEC-RO300FC-REFLOW-OVEN-/320989507198?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4abc772e7e&nma=true&si=OJ7anbJ%2FAqbSVi60eILcRUvNe54%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Can someone pls explain this? ???

What's not to understand?  This machine just performs one part of the process.  The parts that go into the machine still have to come from somewhere, and there is a lot more processing involved besides just running the units through the reflow oven.

It's not like the replicators on Star Trek where they just say "make me 9,000 BitForce SC products" and it fabricates them out of thin air.

@Energizer: We do test all the units for a minimum of 12 hours prior to shipping. This is our endurance test
that is done in a harsh environment to make sure the unit is stable and will not encounter any problem in its
lifetime.

Regards,

Exactly 8. All kidding aside, BFL has stated that all testing will take place on "testnet in a box".

BFLcoin is coming for testing the ASIC's ;D

& you can trade'em in for cool stuff like,T-shirts,mugs,pens,hats,coffee warmers  ;D

instead of highlighting the errors and be rewarded with inaba replies of tin foil hat troll, instead of actual answers. i will not mention the errors already mentioned, but instead just ask some simple questions.

1. does BFL have a finished ASIC prototype that they are testing right now ready to mass/batch produce once quality control checks are done

2. has BFL already done part of question one and already batch producing finalised ASICS.

3. if yes to question 2 are any of them currently going through a burn in process either solo mining or pool mining. and if so which?

4. does BFL have any images of CURRENT workshop equipment that are not third party sources (ebay/google images)

#1 - BFL is a SCAM!
#2 - BFL is a legit business!
#1 - It's a Long-Con!
#2 - Arn't you missing your Tin Hat?
#1 - Let me guess, you're also an iTard?
#2 - Calling me names won't get you anywhere, ass!
#1 - I can't believe you willingly gave your Bitcoins to a scammer!
#2 - I can't believe you don't believe in the future of Bitcoin!

What's not to understand?  This machine just performs one part of the process.  The parts that go into the machine still have to come from somewhere, and there is a lot more processing involved besides just running the units through the reflow oven.

It's not like the replicators on Star Trek where they just say "make me 9,000 BitForce SC products" and it fabricates them out of thin air.

Well they also claim that they can produce 300 every 8 hours, so does that mean, if we assume there are 5000 preorders, they can produce them if they worked 5.5 days straight??? So many Asics in such short time?

Can you imagine if the Chinese get hold of one and manage to copy it! We'll have millions of Asics everywhere..

I've been mining for 6 months with my gaming rig, as I don't have the capital to invest in a dedicated mining system. I slowly accrued fractions of a bitcoin mining a few hours a day with a 5670 before upgrading to a 6870. I've read through hundreds of pages on this forum about how the entire system works. I'm a college student studying electrical engineering, and I'm very good at electronics design and dabble in python coding. I read through the source for poclbm and figured that phoenix is more efficient and a better overall system. I have earned a couple of hundred dollars from mining, and if I'm going to put it into an ASIC, I'm going to be damn sure it's worth it. I'm a low risk trader. I'm not betting my hard earned money on anything less than 100%. I'm not a newbie, I just want a concrete answer.

Certainly nothing like the facilities pictured in the link in the OP, which claims "These units are currently being installed in our new facility."  Then a couple days later, when called out on the origin of the photos, states "they're in transit".

I sent a message to the seller, linking him to the announcement, pointing out the image, and mentioning the skepticism surrounding BFL.  I asked if the machine was being shipped to somewhere in the Kansas City area.  

Everything still checks out as the auction was won Sept. 28 and it is reasonable for it to still be in transit.

Well, if you are looking for 100% you might want to look for another hobby. A major reason that BTC is exciting to many folks is that it is still in a state of growth, and everyone at this point can be considered an innovator or early adopter as far as the overall developing economy is concerned. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_adoption_lifecycle) Because of this early stage, the rules, regulations, and limits of what you can do with BTC are very loose and ill-defined, which in turn leads to:

OPPORTUNITY!

100% certainty is going to exist only in mature, and often ossified, systems that are already "loaded" in favor of the incumbents in the market (see: Regulatory Capture) and the margins are thin.

BitCoin offers far lower certainty, but you have huge opportunities like a potential future with $100 or $1000 value, which helps make up for the chance that I might to lose the whole thing.

Something else you can see played out here is the "Hype Cycle" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hype_cycle) with an overall BitCoin trough starting in preparation for the block reward halving, overlaid with an ASIC hype cycle that is in a trough before anything actually ships.

After 20 years in IT, I can tell you that BFL passes my BS test, but ordering today from them is more of a crapshoot because of shipping backlog than anything else.

To everyone who thinks that the only 2 options are "Legitimate or Scam" (I know, very small, very vocal %) you migh want to consider that you are spending so much time on the wring questions, that you will forget to ask the right ones. For instance, I have a big new concern after seeing this thread.

BFL: Are you using this equipment to manufacture preorders? When do you anticipate starting production using the new gear?

I ask this out of genuine business concern. If BFL is just getting their first pieces of high speed equipment, then there are 2 (likely) options:

• They have already gotten the boards for the first few batches prefabbed, and this is for future runs/products
• They have no boards yet, and need to start running this equipment ASAP

I'm hoping that it is the former, since I'm assuming that this stuff is a bit more than Plug-n-Pray to get up and running. They do mention an experienced team, but do they specialize in urgent turn-ups of this gear. Who knows, maybe these are they same guys that fed the machines at their previous home.

Since I'm not an employe, stockholder, or board member of BFL I really don't expect them to feel obligated to answer my questions, but if they do I will have a bit better information. Of course so will their competition, who may elect to change their own plans in response and remove the advantage BFL was trying to establish with the purchase of this equipment.

Trying to be a community member while also feeding your family (and employees families) with a for-profit enterprise is a difficult balancing act. The standards of this community around certain things is out of line with typical business expectations. 90% is information that I see shared under NDA in the IT world, but this forum is not exactly NDA...

I received confirmation from the ebay seller that the reflow oven was bought by BF Labs.  The seller asked BFL's permission first before confirming them as the buyer.

I received confirmation from the ebay seller that the reflow oven was bought by BF Labs.  The seller asked BFL's permission first before confirming them as the buyer.

So you mean all of the speculation and bickering in this thread was all for nothing?

SHOCKING!  ::)

That said, I still hope they post pictures of the equipment this week so I don't lose my bet.  ;D

I think the point is more that they could have said something. This could have been short circuited by a good bit if Inaba had just confirmed that they purchased that reflow machine, or told us that it was in shipment. I'm happy to hear they have equipment en-route to them, but the major trust issues stem from their reluctance to say much about anything, and Inaba's reaction to most questions being 'you are a troll and therefore stupid, good day.' Still, this should simmer down pretty quickly.

first off they are a business they dont have to tell us shit, if they dont want to. Second when they try to give us information people doubt it or put out a conspercy theory. Oh BFL this oh BFL that.
In the business you workk in do you tell your customers every little thing about it? Do you Confirm to your customers when you buy a piece of equipment to expand your business. i'm pretty sure you dont. Any info they give us is on good gesture.

if they didnt release anymore information about whats going on with the SC and production it wouldnt make a rats ass to me, I would have fun watching people cry about not getting information.
they've proved them self once with the fpga's They will do it again with the asic as people I hope are slowly seeing.

For the rest who just wanna be dicks, Well the link says it all

http://www.amishrakefight.org/gfy (http://www.amishrakefight.org/gfy)



 

first off they are a business they dont have to tell us shit, if they dont want to.

I have nothing but a promise,that's good enough for me  ;)

The more they tell us,the more the competition knows.

My preorder money entitles me to nothing but a finished product being delivered by the date promised,IMO..............

If were a shareholder I would have bonds or something to show for it,correct??

I have nothing but a promise,that's good enough for me  ;)

Yes BFL has delivered before and maybe they will deliver this time round also. Still there are alot of sceptical people and alot of bad rumours and fishy going ons. If I did preorder a bfl device I would most probably be somewhat worried in the back of my mind as they have yet to produce any substantial evidence, strictly speaking from my limited knowledge.

Would it not boost their sales if they somehow proved they were going to deliver? Then why take so long to do so?
Pls dont get me wrong, I am not trying to say bfl are scammers and all the rest of it. Im simply trying to sympathize with the people who have invested quite a bit of their savings hoping they will make some money. What do you think? Can bfl do better to reassure their potential customers and also current customers?

I received confirmation from the ebay seller that the reflow oven was bought by BF Labs.  The seller asked BFL's permission first before confirming them as the buyer.

Yes BFL has delivered before and maybe they will deliver this time round also. Still there are alot of sceptical people and alot of bad rumours and fishy going ons. If I did preorder a bfl device I would most probably be somewhat worried in the back of my mind as they have yet to produce any substantial evidence, strictly speaking from my limited knowledge.

Would it not boost their sales if they somehow proved they were going to deliver? Then why take so long to do so?
Pls dont get me wrong, I am not trying to say bfl are scammers and all the rest of it. Im simply trying to sympathize with the people who have invested quite a bit of their savings hoping they will make some money. What do you think? Can bfl do better to reassure their potential customers and also current customers?

^ I got my confirmation back from the seller as well, same message.

You're all lucky this guy actually spoke to you at all. If I were that seller there is no way in hell I would put in any effort to appease a bunch of conspiracy theorists by potentially violating the privacy of my buyer. I wouldn't even have asked BFL, I would have sent your emails straight to the trash. You're also lucky this was an eBay purchase instead of direct - try asking a manufacturer for that kind of information and they'll kindly ask to see your warrant as security removes you from the building.

This entire effort is ridiculous. It's nearly impossible to believe that this many people have this much free time on your collective hands and this little common sense. If we were talking about any non-Bitcoin business BFL would actually be considered fairly transparent, but you're all too spoiled by the downright radical transparency of others to recognize that it's not actually normal for a tech business to hand you a "how to copy our shit" kit before the product is released. I also have the feeling that if BFL were a bigger business run by standard douchebag executive assholes, there would already be several lawsuits.

But hey, pass out the tinfoil hats, the controversy is just free advertising for the company you purportedly hate - especially when stuff like this happens. I'm sure you're right, though... I mean, buying thousands of dollars worth of electronics manufacturing equipment from eBay on the off chance you'll identify the source of the pictures then getting some random seller to cooperate with you to confirm the purchase is just part of the "long con." Totally. I mean, that sounds not at all crazy and totally like something people do, right?

^This a hundred times. I think you're forgetting, though, that there are a ton of people that have a monetary interest in trashing and trolling about ASIC constantly, and plenty for specifically BFL. I have a pre-order with BFL, but I can't manage to bring myself to blather on about scams to pray that there are less ASIC devices in the wild at first so I can make a few more bucks.

On that note, I think anyone that is constantly spewing this trash, and is found to have pre-ordered any ASIC device, or is associated with any ASIC company, should get a scammer tag if BFL delivers. That's pretty much the definition of scam, right? Lying through your teeth to make a few bucks off the decisions you influenced others to make.

You're all lucky this guy actually spoke to you at all. If I were that seller there is no way in hell I would put in any effort to appease a bunch of conspiracy theorists by potentially violating the privacy of my buyer. I wouldn't even have asked BFL, I would have sent your emails straight to the trash. You're also lucky this was an eBay purchase instead of direct - try asking a manufacturer for that kind of information and they'll kindly ask to see your warrant as security removes you from the building.

This entire effort is ridiculous. It's nearly impossible to believe that this many people have this much free time on your collective hands and this little common sense. If we were talking about any non-Bitcoin business BFL would actually be considered fairly transparent, but you're all too spoiled by the downright radical transparency of others to recognize that it's not actually normal for a tech business to hand you a "how to copy our shit" kit before the product is released. I also have the feeling that if BFL were a bigger business run by standard douchebag executive assholes, there would already be several lawsuits.

But hey, pass out the tinfoil hats, the controversy is just free advertising for the company you purportedly hate - especially when stuff like this happens. I'm sure you're right, though... I mean, buying thousands of dollars worth of electronics manufacturing equipment from eBay on the off chance you'll identify the source of the pictures then getting some random seller to cooperate with you to confirm the purchase is just part of the "long con." Totally. I mean, that sounds not at all crazy and totally like something people do, right?

So for an update on shipping times... As you might imagine, we get this question a lot. It seems like it would be a simple question to answer, but it's not. Let me describe the process so people can better understand why.


If you look at the current FPGA board in a Single or MiniRig, you'll see lots of capacitors, resistors, etc... about 350 little tiny parts attached to the board. Contrary to some of the conspiracy theories out there, all our boards are completely custom made, they aren't purchased from another manufacturer, etc... they are designed by us and made for us and us alone. As such, we are required to volume source every single part that goes on the board.


The ASICs are similar in so far as they also have nearly 350 components on each board. With the FPGAs, we sourced parts in the hundreds or low thousands at a time. For some of the ASIC parts, we are sourcing hundreds of thousands at a time which requires direct ordering & lead time dependancy from the respective manufacturers. However, for this first batch, we're mostly able to depend on available distribution stock from places like Mouser and DigiKey. Shortly after we get the first batch of everything in, we'll have our larger mega stockpiles arrive from other vendors and/or direct from the distributors, it's just the first batch that's going to be rough.


So, we've got he myriad distributors shipping thousands of little pieces to us, the PCB manufacturer sending us the bare PCBs, the HSF manufacturer sending the HSFs to us, the PSU manufacturer sending the PSU's to us, the case manufacturer sending the cases to us and most importantly, the fab sending the ASIC chips to us. All of these must arrive on time and as expected for everything to go off without a hitch. So far, so good.


When we made our announcement for shipping dates, we padded in some extra weeks in case of delays, and as we try to herd all these cats into one corral, our padding is slowly eaten up with mostly minor problems, but they all add up. With the bump in specs, we spent some time ensuring the power subsystem is over powered to accommodate the new and future power requirements - our chips are capable of higher speeds than what we initially intended to send out in the first batch, and they still have quite a bit of headroom; We decided to go ahead design the power subsystem to handle the maximum theoretical load of the chips. This means we can now crank the board up with some minor tweaking. Each chip is theoretically capable of operating at 1 GHz, we are running them at 500 MHz with the new specs... we will likely never see 1 GHz operations, simply because of heat density issues and a few other factors, but we have at least another 25% of headroom we can play with, if not more. Again, we built in a lot of padding into the specs, just in case something went wrong. We have basically padded everything we could in terms of estimates and that padding is what has allowed us to bump specs on short notice and keep our shipping times in line even in the face of delays.


Ok, so we have the cats herded, the specs staked out, now we have to actually build these things. As many of you know, we've purchased SMT machines to allow us to manufacture our own boards - and I have mentioned this before, but many have not heard it - we will not be using the SMT equipment to process our first batch of boards; we will be using the same house that did the pick and place for our previous generation products, which means we're still at the mercy of someone else for our first batch shipments. There has been some delays at that stage, but we have the padding, so it's not been a critical issue. There has also been some delays at the foundry, but again, we have padding, so it's not been a critical issue. We are also paying for an expedited run at the foundry (which does not come cheap) to keep our timeline up. All these things have to work out perfectly and our timeline is still looking good. However, if something does not work out perfectly, our timeline is going to slip, plain and simple. We've used up most of our padding at this point and we are still ironing out a few little wrinkles here and there. This has been a long explanation for a simple answer: I would like to tell you we are still on time or pretty close to it, because we are. However, I would also like to tell you that we are going to slip a couple weeks or so if anything goes wrong, and given the complexity of the issues facing us, I would say it's almost inevitable something will crop up between now and the beginning of November that we are not expecting; What that is, I don't know yet, but I would rather error on the side of caution, say the timeline is going to slip a little bit and then surprise everyone with an early delivery than promise an early delivery and not meet that promise. So that's what I'm doing and there's your answer. When I have more information, I'll let people know as soon as I can.

very interesting to see that the chips have such high overclocking potential.

Ok, so we have the cats herded, the specs staked out, now we have to actually build these things. As many of you know, we've purchased SMT machines to allow us to manufacture our own boards - and I have mentioned this before, but many have not heard it - we will not be using the SMT equipment to process our first batch of boards; we will be using the same house that did the pick and place for our previous generation products, which means we're still at the mercy of someone else for our first batch shipments. There has been some delays at that stage, but we have the padding, so it's not been a critical issue. There has also been some delays at the foundry, but again, we have padding, so it's not been a critical issue. We are also paying for an expedited run at the foundry (which does not come cheap) to keep our timeline up. All these things have to work out perfectly and our timeline is still looking good. However, if something does not work out perfectly, our timeline is going to slip, plain and simple. We've used up most of our padding at this point and we are still ironing out a few little wrinkles here and there. This has been a long explanation for a simple answer: I would like to tell you we are still on time or pretty close to it, because we are. However, I would also like to tell you that we are going to slip a couple weeks or so if anything goes wrong, and given the complexity of the issues facing us, I would say it's almost inevitable something will crop up between now and the beginning of November that we are not expecting; What that is, I don't know yet, but I would rather error on the side of caution, say the timeline is going to slip a little bit and then surprise everyone with an early delivery than promise an early delivery and not meet that promise. So that's what I'm doing and there's your answer. When I have more information, I'll let people know as soon as I can.

Actually, is the size of the first batch that important? It's not like you can change whether you're in it or not, at this point. And if you didn't order in the first month, I can almost guarantee you won't get a first batch shipment.

Actually, is the size of the first batch that important? It's not like you can change whether you're in it or not, at this point. And if you didn't order in the first month, I can almost guarantee you won't get a first batch shipment.

...and such energy efficient. This is amazing  :o based on the frequency, performance and energy consumption must be 1 nm technological process ;) BFL ahead of his time as Leonardo da Vinci ;) This promises to be a great revolution in bitcoin world :)

If you down clocked your processor to 500mhz you could probably get away with passive cooling solutions.

I accept your bet. Someone quote please.

To be clear, I am betting 5 BTC that BFL posts pictures of their new equipment before 10/13/2012.

Today is 10/13/2012. BFL has not posted any new equipment photos. Was explained that the first picture is not fake, but what about photo 2 and 3? 
Bogart, just won 5BTC.
@CoinHoarder - I hope  you are an honorable man :)

Here is a recently completed auction of the Essemtec reflow oven pictured.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ESSEMTEC-RO300FC-REFLOW-OVEN-/320989507198?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4abc772e7e (http://www.ebay.com/itm/ESSEMTEC-RO300FC-REFLOW-OVEN-/320989507198?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4abc772e7e)

Is there any way BFL could prove they won the auction?

This is crazy... These things are supposed to ship in few weeks and their just bidding on equipment?

They said the first batch was too large for them to produce, even with this hardware. The initial batch will be manufactured at the same plant as as the current Singles, and shipped in a large batch. This hardware is for after they're all caught up, so they can make a unit and ship it within days of ordering.

Is that something similar to what happened with the FPGA's?

Today is 10/13/2012. BFL has not posted any new equipment photos. Was explained that the first picture is not fake, but what about photo 2 and 3? 
Bogart, just won 5BTC.
@CoinHoarder - I hope  you are an honorable man :)

Today is 10/13/2012. BFL has not posted any new equipment photos. Was explained that the first picture is not fake, but what about photo 2 and 3? 
Bogart, just won 5BTC.
@CoinHoarder - I hope  you are an honorable man :)

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/entry.php/14-Taking-delivery-of-the-oven (https://forums.butterflylabs.com/entry.php/14-Taking-delivery-of-the-oven)

I concur, nobody said Josh could not screw with us, it would seem that the bet did fall the other way.

Hey Inna, did you do that on purpose or just look down at the time and go "oh crap!?"

look at the time it was posted, I think it was done to fuck with him. lol

I think so too, but I'm afraid followers of BFL sect :) so I'm quietly ;) I suggest to cancel a bet, because date of the photo is in BFL moderators hands.

Seriously? you think they would screw with the time stamps on forum posts over a 5BTC bet?

Tinfoil hat much?

Let's see indeed.  If they were purchased on Wednesday the 3rd, they ought to be arriving around Monday the 8th if they ship from within the US.  I can't imagine BFL waiting for slow international shipping.  They are on a schedule after all.

I'll wager 5 BTC that no such photos show up any time next week (thru the 13th) that are not obvious fakes or highly questionable.  Certainly none that provide a solid assurance that BFL is in fact in possession of and operating or setting up these machines for operation.

(Post in the thread if you wanna take the other side of this wager.)

If Bogart wants to be semantic, he could argue that the picture of what appears to be the oven in the back of a truck doesn't meet the criteria of his bet. BFL announced that once the machines were fully installed they would provide photos and assembly videos. Bogart bet that BFL wouldn't provide photos that
1) BFL was in possession of the machines, and
2) Operating or setting up the machines for operation.

I'd  say 1) is satisfied, but 2) is questionable.

I wouldn't say Bogart won the bet, but I would say there's enough there that he could not pay without earning himself a scammer tag.

To be clear, I am betting 5 BTC that BFL posts pictures of their new equipment before 10/13/2012.

Let's see indeed.  If they were purchased on Wednesday the 3rd, they ought to be arriving around Monday the 8th if they ship from within the US.  I can't imagine BFL waiting for slow international shipping.  They are on a schedule after all.

I'll wager 5 BTC that no such photos show up any time next week (thru the 13th) that are not obvious fakes or highly questionable.  Certainly none that provide a solid assurance that BFL is in fact in possession of and operating or setting up these machines for operation.

(Post in the thread if you wanna take the other side of this wager.)

I suppose it is unclear.  My bet statement includes the 13th, though CoinHoarder's does not.

Call it invalid?

Or we could make it fun and make a poll thread to decide.

Do not do it. there are too much fanatical BFL's followers ;)
before is before, before <13 not = <
It would be fair to cancel the bet because of unclear proof, and not sufficiently precise wording bet. But both sides must agree.

Yes, I said before the 13th. However, he said through the 13th.

So at the end of the day, whose statement do we go by? Or do both void each other out as the terms were not clear?

I'm not trying to get off on some technicality, but it was proven that the reflow machine was bought by BFL a day(ish) after we made out bet. So just because they didn't post pictures of it, I lose, even though we know they bought the machine? Pretty lame. But, in the end Bogart's wording may have saved me?

[..]
They're laying down BGA parts, and probably QFN parts.. Do they have X-Ray inspection?  Do they have 3D solder paste inspection?
[..]

A ball grid array (BGA) is a type of surface-mount packaging used for integrated circuits. BGA packages are used to permanently mount devices such as microprocessors. A BGA can provide more interconnection pins than can be put on a dual in-line or flat package. The whole bottom surface of the device can be used, instead of just the perimeter. The leads are also on average shorter than with a perimeter-only type, leading to better performance at high speeds.
Soldering of BGA devices requires precise control and is usually done by automated processes. A BGA device is never mounted in a socket in use.

Automated X-ray inspection (AXI) is a technology based on the same principles as automated optical inspection (AOI). It uses X-rays as its source, instead of visible light, to automatically inspect features, which are typically hidden from view.
The increasing usage of ICs (integrated circuit) with packages such as BGAs (ball grid array) where the connections are underneath the chip and not visible, means that ordinary optical inspection is impossible. Because the connections are underneath the chip package there is a greater need to ensure that the manufacturing process is able to accommodate these chips correctly. Additionally the chips that use BGA packages tend to be the larger ones with many connections. Therefore it is essential that all the connections are made correctly.[1]
AXI is often paired with the testing provided by boundary scan test, in-circuit test, and functional test.

Flat no-leads packages such as QFN (quad-flat no-leads) and DFN (dual-flat no-leads) physically and electrically connect integrated circuits to printed circuit boards. Flat no-leads, also known as MicroLeadFrame and SON (small-outline no leads), is a surface-mount technology, one of several package technologies that connect ICs to the surfaces of PCBs without through-holes. Flat no-lead is a near chip scale package plastic encapsulated package made with a planar copper lead frame substrate. Perimeter lands on the package bottom provide electrical connections to the PCB.[1] Flat no-lead packages include an exposed thermal pad to improve heat transfer out of the IC (into the PCB). Heat transfer can be further facilitated by metal vias in the thermal pad.[2] The QFN package is similar to the quad-flat package, and a ball grid array.

It never ends, does it? Now they're under fire for not spending out the ass for high end equipment that isn't necessary.

Calm your jets. It was one jerk making abrasive comments.

Calm your jets. I'm one jerk making abrasive comments.

And I've seen plenty of electronics released that have incredible failure rates, that were designed by teams of hundreds of highly qualified engineers and produced using the most expensive and sophisticated machinery money can buy.

They can build their product with hot air guns, toaster ovens, and hobby soldering irons for all I care, as long as it works. The results are all I'm after, and since those are yet to come, you're just criticizing your own assumptions of future quality.

If a few months from now, their hardware is in the wild and undergoing pandemic levels of failure, then you can gloat and mock and flail your knowledge-peen around all you want. Until then, you're publicly masturbating.

Until then, you're publicly masturbating.

If they're seriously going to build high-dollar, high-mix, high-complexity (high-mix and high-complexity being the real difficulty) hardware on a MY-9, a semi-automatic (read: manual) solder paste printer and a 6 foot long reflow oven and then not even inspect the solder paste or placements and not x-ray the hidden joints, then I won't be masturbating for long...  I actually hope they prove me wrong and build great hardware, but it would be nearly impossible.

A 6 foot long oven can't (literally, impossible) have enough zones to form a proper reflow profile for a mixed technology/mixed thermal mass PCBA.  We use 14 zone reflow ovens that are over 30 feet long, and there are times we wish we had bigger ones.  Longer ovens with more zones allow for better profiles on boards that have mixed thermal-mass areas.  Run an Oven Mole (http://www.ecd.com/products/supermolegold2/index.asp) though a 6 foot oven with the thermocouples attached to different parts of the circuit board and you'll see how incredibly uneven the heating will be in a short oven.

Do you know why contract electronic manufacturers exist?  Because most companies (yes, even ones that design really cool stuff) don't have the equipment or expertise to manufacture electronics.  Dealing with ESDs, MSDs, Reflow Profiles, Solder Paste Issues, Inspection, Re-work, etc, etc, etc, etc are not trivial....  Are they building with lead-free solder (for RoHS compliance)?  Do they have knowledge of how to reduce the risks of tin-whiskers if they are?  Are they building with water-soluble fluxed paste or no-clean?  Do they have the equipment to properly wash the boards if water-soluble is the answer?  Do they have an ionograph to spot test for ionic contamination?

Unless they can answer all of these questions, then bringing manufacturing in-house was a bad idea.

Enigma

I could be completely wrong here... but the above sounds similar to an auto mechanic insisting that his customer *needs* various things to make his car run property at 100%.  The mechanic is 100% correct, but a perfectly running car isn't what the customer is interested in.  Similarly, perfectly running products from BFL aren't really what I'm interested in.  If they have some downtime... OK.  If I have to finagle them around... fine.  In fact, I'd be happy if they ditched their cases and shipped their stuff open, like other people have shipped their FPGA's.

The fact of the matter is, the initial ASIC race will be won almost entirely by whomever is able to ship first, whether or not the products are 100% free of defects.

You can carry most analogies too far, and I think we can see the breaking point from here.

Walk into your average small dealership service department and see the equipment they have.  Then walk into a small but sustainable garage.  You'll see that people can get work done in both, but there's a lot less bodging in the dealership.  In the small garage, one employee has to wear multiple hats (hey, I do startups, that's how we roll) which decreases depth of knowledge and ability to foresee potential problems but minimises cost.  This can result in a bunch of "oh shit" moments where valuable lessons are learned that would have been avoided by spending hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars on a specialised piece of equipment and at least one trained tech.

If the answer were no, why would we be doing it?  The answer must necessarily be yes.

From my perspective, putting the emotional issues (including history) aside, it's completely feasible that a company could produce ASIC-based mining systems without the investments Enigma mentioned.  You or I could do it in our garages.

From my perspective, putting the emotional issues (including history) aside, it's completely feasible that a company could produce ASIC-based mining systems without the investments Enigma mentioned.  You or I could do it in our garages.

So the answer turns out to be... Enigma is full of it.

Response Enigma?

Yeah, but why? Every corner in Shenzhen has the team/equipment to do it quicker and cheaper.

But carrying the analogy, would Enigma say that what you're doing in your garage is simply not enough and you need to get a million dollars worth of tools and equipment from AMG?  That's the analogy.

I don't know if he's correct is my point.  Assuming that he is correct if the average BFL customer will settle for nothing less than 100% perfect, is he still correct if they are willing to restart their machines every week or so?

You can carry most analogies too far, and I think we can see the breaking point from here.

Walk into your average small dealership service department and see the equipment they have.  Then walk into a small but sustainable garage.  You'll see that people can get work done in both, but there's a lot less bodging in the dealership.  In the small garage, one employee has to wear multiple hats (hey, I do startups, that's how we roll) which decreases depth of knowledge and ability to foresee potential problems but minimises cost.  This can result in a bunch of "oh shit" moments where valuable lessons are learned that would have been avoided by spending hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars on a specialised piece of equipment and at least one trained tech.

So the answer turns out to be... Enigma is full of it.

Response Enigma?

Since my quote was lifted without context, I said it's feasible.  I didn't say it was profitable or even a good idea for a company to do.  Hell, look at all the Arduino kits that eight-year-olds can build.

It all depends on relationships.  They may not have the face time in China to work out all the kinks.  They may have to work through an intermediary who drives up costs.  They may be unhappy with various stages, or all stages, of the work that is done overseas.

I have no idea why they've decided to take on specific parts of their assembly themselves, but we can all guess.  Maybe Chinese business ethics prevents them from sanding off all identifying marks on chips stolen from BTCFPGA's fab.

I've been fortunate to work in tech-heavy locations, but I've still had to travel to China to kick off relationships, projects, etc., to make sure things work out OK.  When we haven't had someone on the ground, we've gone back and forth with revised tech packs, killing time to market and margins.

A 6 foot long oven can't (literally, impossible) have enough zones to form a proper reflow profile for a mixed technology/mixed thermal mass PCBA.  We use 14 zone reflow ovens that are over 30 feet long, and there are times we wish we had bigger ones.  Longer ovens with more zones allow for better profiles on boards that have mixed thermal-mass areas.  Run an Oven Mole (http://www.ecd.com/products/supermolegold2/index.asp) though a 6 foot oven with the thermocouples attached to different parts of the circuit board and you'll see how incredibly uneven the heating will be in a short oven.

Exactly. So why is BFL trying to go down that path? Why not let the pros do it?

Because they will have some sort of control if something went wrong. Because if China decides it's the Year of the Dragon 1 month holiday, that means 1 month with no work being done. Etc.

And you can see how people are screaming if there are delays in deliveries.

Yea, I am sure China shuts everything down for 1 month. Makes sense.

During the Chinese New Year, most of the workers go home to their families, who live hundreds of miles away! During this time, many factories do not have much output! Thus, only large customers will be served!

As for BFL's high speed equipment, looking at their boards it seems there's a single small BGA, with the rest of the chips either being QFN or leaded. That makes the requirements for assembly and chip inspection much simpler than they would have even had for their FPGA singles.