Bitcoin Forum

I was thinking of releasing all PMs sent to and from pirateat40 to BCB, under the condition that BCB sign a non-disclosure agreement so that innocent third-parties don't end up being hurt. What do you think of this?

What's the point if it is under an NDA?

He'd be able to ask me whether he can release some of the info.

I would prefer to go through the PMs myself and make public any info that would be useful in locating pirateat40, but there are thousands of PMs and I don't have time. BCB volunteered to look through them for me.

Who is BCB, though? To be fair, if someone doesn't have government authority behind them, you should release them to any party interested, or your detractors are going to have a field day with this one. I mean, just be careful of the precedent you're setting here, are you prepared to offer similar treatment for future scammers? How about past scammers? If so, I'd love to see Homeless Jackie's PMs... And while I wouldn't care to see them, what about bulanula's? I guess I'm saying whatever you decide, make sure it's a consistent application.

I would prefer to release the PMs to police instead, but they're apparently not interested since they haven't contacted me yet.

In most cases I would release the PMs of 100% proven scammers to police (proven at the same level as what I require for IP release, not the level for scammer tags). This was such a large scam that I'd like to help the investigation proceed even without police interest.

Hasn't the SEC taken an interest in this?  Why not just give it to them?

- I've not been contacted by the SEC.
- I'm not sure that they would use the info to actually find pirateat40.
- They might use the info to prosecute innocent people for violating stupid securities laws.

I don't like the idea of these PMs being released to a random community member.  Perhaps you could put up an address to pay for your time and the community could donate so that you can look through them yourself instead of a 3rd party?



This.

I suggest you use them as evidence to file a police report instead.

Depending on the jurisdiction  and it's interpretation it might even be your obligation to do so. At least it would be considered the right etiquette.

Why give it to BCB? Either release it publicly or not at all.

If you have reservations about releasing the PM logs publicly, then you should have the same reservations for releasing them to a third party.

I'd be careful doing this.  Even though technologically savvy people know that PMs sent through a forum such as this are not private, PM is an acronym for "private message".  

Police with a search warrant = yes, without a doubt give them to them.  

Police with no search warrant = tell them to please go get a warrant, you'll help them with info they need to get a warrant, and then you'll turn it all over to them.  

SEC = I'd be nervous about unintended consequences giving them to the SEC.  Absolutely, make them get a subpoena from a court ordering you to turn those over.  

Random person = you're setting yourself up for trouble if you hand them over.  

  

You'd have exactly the same potential issues with law enforcement.  This isn't the kind of crime which gets investigated by a county police department.  

People likely have violated securities laws.  And tax laws.  And probably a few other laws as well.  And many have likely done so knowingly.  The minute someone goes through those PMs and picks and chooses which PMs to pass on to investigators they're imposing their own bias about who is "innocent" and making themselves complicit in shielding those people.

There can be no effective investigation of pirate - whether by regulators or by law enforcement - without the role others played in his fraud coming under scrutiny.  If the PMs are to be released, they need to be released directly to investigators.  They're not going to have any evidentiary value anyway if they don't come from an original source who can verify that they're unedited and provide all the logging information needed to establish the identities of those involved in the communications.

One thing you need to consider, theymos, is whether you're willing to give testimony in respect of the PMs.  There is little point in releasing them if you're not because their authenticity could be called into question.  You also need to consider the possibility that investigators might wish to image the entire forum database if the PMs are to be used as evidence.

There is nothing stopping those who are talking to the SEC from advising Phil Moustakis that further evidence of pirate's activities can be found in PMs sent through this forum and in IRC logs.  There is nothing stopping those people from forwarding their own PMs related to their "investment" in pirate to Phil Moustakis.

release them to wikileaks or openleaks or whatever there is that has the manpower to anonymise the PMs to the point where the likelyhood of someone other than pirate gettin hurt is minimized.

half-jokingly, but this would actually be prudent to somehow achieve. Then you could release it publicly.

I'm not in the pirate PMs, but if I was I would probably not be happy about a release of the PMs to some forum member I barely even talked to, let alone to the public.

This happens all the time and is known as redaction.

I'm not saying handing the PM's to anybody is or is not a good idea, but if Theymos determines it is a good idea, then redacting anything he pleases is entirely appropriate.  The most honest way to redact is with black strokes (e.g. print everything, redact with a fat black marker, and scan it back in using 1-bit color, all pixels must be either black or white).  This eliminates the risk of leaking through hidden but recoverable text (like the recent TSA redaction fail) and also makes clear what's missing, so one needing to uncover something knows what to ask for.

That said, I'm not promoting the release or non-release of the information to anybody - my "why not the SEC" was simply a curiosity question and I agree with many of the concerns and viewpoints expressed in the thread.

I guess the burning question is what is the objective of releasing the PMs.  It's not as though pirate is likely to be shamed or embarrassed by their release, so how is the public release of the PMs going to "hurt" pirate in any way?  If the PMs provide evidence that would be useful in an investigation, then investigators need access to unsanitised versions.

I'm as curious as anyone else about what pirate was saying privately, but it very much matters to whom he was saying stuff and what they were saying in response.  pirate's PMs may well provide evidence of others being knowingly complicit in his fraud.  


I absolutely agree that the PMs can be released in redacted form.  My question remains what is the purpose of releasing them and how you eliminate bias form the redaction process.

I have no idea what it would achieve. In Theymos' shoes I probably wouldn't release them to anyone but authorities I'm obligated to give them to.

You can't get in trouble doing that.  That's always my recommended course of action. 

One way to generalize this would be to let anyone who can reasonably show that they've put a large effort into the investigation of Pirate, and are reasonably trusted, have access to the PMs under a NDA. And of course, the other way of doing it would be to have the Bitcointalk.org staff go through it and redact stuff, then post it publicly.

Hopefully, there will be something in there that will interest the authorities to ask for the messages directly. If they end up needing the full database, I can testify what the sha-256 hash of each encrypted database was on each day since about February 17th, although most of my backups have been long since pruned.

I'd trust Bruno with 'em.

...I might be alone in that, though.

cryptome.org might be better.

Having me and some global moderators censor the PMs of info that could harm innocent people is something I considered. I'm not sure if I could collect enough money, though. There are 4092 PMs with 1181516 characters. I'd guess that that's around 675 pages. $2-$3 per page seems like a reasonable rate, so that's $1350-$2025. More if I wanted each PM to be double-checked before being published, which would be a good idea. Could I get that much in donations?

Also, this would take a few weeks. Would the investigation be harmed by more delay?

What is the goal of releasing the PMs? 

What a question! Yes I would like to know that too.

Locating any misrepresentations or material omissions made to people, on which they relied to make an investment decision in any bitcoin securities offering. Almost certainly such a misrepresentation was made via PM to some people. With that information, the SEC can move in.

If you mean any official investigation by regulators or law enforcement, then if the PMs contain useful information they're going to want access to the unedited versions.  If you're talking about redacting the PMs in order to make them publicly available to the community, then I guess the question is whether that is worth the time and effort involved in and of itself.

- Locate pirateat40
- Prosecute pirateat40 when he is found. (If courts accept the PMs as evidence.)
- See if pirateat40 had any accomplices. Maybe some of the passthrough operators were told by pirateat40 that this was a Ponzi scheme, but continued lying to people about it.
- I don't know if BCB has any interest in this, but I think that publishing the PMs with the sensitive info of innocent people removed (names, exact BTC amounts, addresses, passwords, etc.) would be of great historical interest/value. This would be, for example, a great resource for any academic research of Ponzi schemes.

Does Bitcointalk have a privacy policy? I can't find one. And I don't see one when you register. So technically you can do what you want. But I guess this means Personal Messages aren't exactly "Personal" anymore.

I don't mean to sound cocky, but I have a feeling you have already made your mind and are looking for the forum to back up your moral decision. Go ahead and do it.

You should be careful with that. I believe you need to define specific objectives and make the search and release of the information only according to the specific objectives. It could become an horrible legal mess.

I mean, usually, the police needs to ask a judge to give them a specific mandate, and they can't really go over the boundaries of the mandate. It's not because it's an internet forum that users don't have civil rights anymore. Many of us are living in societies of rights, and it is possible that by releasing that information, you're breaking civil rights of many users around here.

Being an international forum and the biggest Bitcoin community around, there's a lot at stake here. You should not ask the community about that, you should ask a lawyer. I don't think it's going to do any good if pirate sue your ass because your broke his civil rights (or any other users).

I think the minimum you should do is:
-Define specific objectives for your search.
-List all the relevant PMs.
-Ask the users who sent and received PM from pirate if they consent to release that information.
-Ask a lawyer to know if pirate could come bite at you if you release the PM.

*EDIT*
I'm not a lawyer and I don't think any of those who are going to reply here are also. Go see a lawyer first, seriously.

Exactly.

IMHO the only reason for *not* doing it that way would be to


However if that's really the true intent in all this, there would probably be far fewer than 4092 PMs to look through.

Civil rights by their nature can only be broken by or on behalf of the government.  It is not really possible for an individual acting on his own accord to violate someone's civil rights.

I honestly think that this is the only reason for making them public whether in redacted or raw form.  No investigation by authorities with the power to take action against pirate requires the PMs being made public outside of a courtroom.

While I believe that the PMs may have value to investigators, their value to investigators isn't going to be increased by them being released publicly so I think that's a bit of a red herring.  How would releasing them publicly be more likely to assist in locating or prosecuting pirate than simply giving them to investigators without releasing them to the community?

I think that the community itself probably does want to know who knew what and when and whether anyone in this community knowingly and actively assisted pirate in perpetrating his fraud.  I think that if the PMs are going to be released publicly in order to satisfy that curiosity then there is no need to make noble-sounding justifications for releasing them.

The choice ultimately rests with you, theymos.  Nobody else can make it for you.

The S.E.C doesn't care about bitcoin, plus they don't have any authority over bitcoin.

I say have BCB go thru and release only the ones that would be useful

If I refuse to lend you an apartment because you're black, I'm pretty sure I'm violating your civil rights and I'm pretty sure you can come back at me. But anyway, the important point here is to check with a lawyer if, in the case where those PM are released, pirate or any user can sue the people responsible for that.

What exactly are you hoping to accomplish? "Investigations" without the police in these kinds of matters may lead to... what? More wasted time for everyone, spiritual insights, self-reflections, what? If you are aware of PMs that may be evidence of someone's (not just Pirateat40's) criminal actions, or planned criminal actions in the future - go ahead and file a police report. 

I love the logic:

Won't send them to the SEC because they might use it to go after 3rd parties.

Will release it to a single person because they signed a nondisclosure agreement.

There is no way to know if BCB would just send the data to the SEC.  Even if he or she did, will the NDA be taken up in court?  Probably not.  Instead just release all the data publicly, but theymos should also release all his PMs as well.

Hmm theymdos, why don't you give me your PMs to me under a NDA and I'll have a look through it?

Are we the police now? Who is going to locate pirateat40 and/or conduct an investigation?

If you think someone has broken the law, the "normal" procedure is to go to the police and file a report and or sue or whatever, not to take justice into your own hands. I think you're even obligated (at least in most countries), once you have knowledge of a crime, to report it.

I know the Bitcoin world is a bit like the Wild West... but even they had sheriffs and judges (however impartial these might've been)

please dont publish my one pm to pirateat40.
it does not contain any hints to find him - its just what i have "invested" with him and i want to keep that information private

thanks

That's exactly what we want to avoid.

sorry i am confused.
what exactly do you want to avoid?

do you want to avoid publishing "pirate investment" information? - and yes: this would include sec.

or do you want to avoid HIDING investment information so the sec can get the most accurate data?

i really wish i had never send that pm...

You should be wishing you never got involved with Pirate  ;).

Theymos wants to avoid releasing unimportant third party information like who had how much invested, that's nobody else's business and won't help anyone. Along with email addresses, account information, other private information, etc.
That kind of stuff would be removed before publicly releasing the pm's.

None of this has anything to do with the SEC though, if they want information or plan to use the pms they won't accept internet redacted versions, they will get a subpoena, get what they want and decide for themselves what's important. So if you are worried about the SEC for whatever reason, there's really nothing we can do for you. 

thanks

Any information provided to the SEC by a "third party" would not be admissible in their investigation or any subsequent civil or criminal prosecution of Trendon Shavors.

The SEC (Securities and Exchange Comnmission)  is a United States CIVIL authority (not Criminal) and is currently conducting an "investigation" in to "Bitcoin Securities Offerings."    If this investigation does not gather enough relevant information, they may not be able to more forward to a civil suit.

If you did nothing wrong I would strongly encourage anyone who lost money in  a Trendon Shavors related Bitcoin Investment to contact the US SEC directly, 

REGARDLESS OF THE COUNTRY IN WHICH YOU LIVE.


Philip Moustakis
Senior Attorney
Division of Enforcement
United States Securities & Exchange Commission
3 World Financial Center, Suite 400
New York, NY 10281-1022
(212) 336-0542
moustakisp@sec.gov
 

Thanks for your constructive input, BCB

My opinion has hardened: Theymos should not release the PMs at all.

Are you sure?  That sounds a lot like the "hearsay" rule, which only applies to person A saying they heard person B saying something, not person A turning over data created by person B and managed on person A's servers.  Otherwise, any investigation in the world that relies on information from anybody anywhere would grind to a halt because nothing would be admissible other than a suspect's own confession.

You can testify to something which you heard yourself.  There are circumstances in which me saying that I heard person B say something would definitely be admissible.  The point on which admissibility turns is often directness of knowledge.  B telling me that C said something would make my knowledge of C's words indirect - I can't testify to what C actually said.  The raw PMs would not be "heresay" as proper forensic investigation could establish whether they'd been altered, their origin, etc. 

I don't have any exposure in this but if I did and my PMs contained useful information, I could forward those to the SEC but they'd want access to the forum database in order to establish the validity of those PMs and need that access for forensic investigation.  Inadmissible evidence can be useful if there's another means to corroborate it and it can provide new leads to investigators.

It sounds a bit like theymos wants someone to issue a subpoena for pirate's PMs but he's not willing to let investigators know himself that the forum database holds over 4000 pirate-related PMs.  It may even contain more because if others were complicit with pirate, PMs between accomplices may be just as important in establishing that as communications with pirate.

This is a reasonable desire, because then no one can hold him responsible for him appointing himself the right to violate their claimed expectation of privacy.

There is nothing to stop theymos contacting the SEC (or law enforcement) and letting them know that the PMs exist and that he will hand them over in response to an appropriate legal request.  My perception is that he wants somebody else to make investigators aware of the existence of the PMs.

The reality is that users who theymos (or anyone else "sanitising" PMs for public release) regards as "innocent" might not be regarded as innocent by investigators.  The reverse is also true.  Parties who theymos regards as "deserving" of exposure might not be regarded as "guilty"/complicit by investigators.  Investigators need access to data which hasn't been filtered in line with someone else's opinion of its relevance.

As stated previously, I'm as curious as everyone else about what was being said behind the scenes.  I also recognise that while making the PMs public might satisfy that curiosity somewhat (it will likely raise as many questions as it answers), only giving the PMs to investigators in unredacted form is likely to help their investigation in any way and the possibility that the investigation will not result in any action against pirate even if those PMs are handed over is a real one.

Based on past form, Pirate would probably manage to intimidate almost everyone who's invested with him into not allowing their PMs to be released.

I hereby authorize Theymos to release any and all PMs I have with Pirate.

If that's your desire, then why not just post some of them yourself?

Primarily because there aren't any.  :D

If you decide to do this, hit me up for a sizable ($500+) donation. I'd personally love to read them and I'm sure lots of others would too.

The info would have to be released publicly and have clear rules for redactions (I.E. only names, amounts, addresses and passwords should be redacted and all other data released with no exceptions)

Thanks.

Was a decision ever made on this?

the PMs have been bought and are being resold on the blackmarket^TM:
to receive a copy you have to put up BTC 100 and escrow another 1000 that will be kept should you leak your watermarked copies to the public or to anyone else before Dec 31st 2013.
Deletion of posts is 30 BTC per post or 100 BTC for all correspondence with a specific user.

(this is a joke)

Nice! 

not sure wether I should increase the font size of "(this is a joke)". But knowing you a bit I guess it's not necessary.

BCB decided that he didn't want to do it anymore.

I might collect donations to have moderators go through them, but I haven't decided yet.

I had hoped to find corroborating evidence of some information that had already been provide to me such as:

The location of the several safe deposit boxes Trendon Shavers controls and confirmation of the items I was told they contained.

Information on who may be receiving BTC from Trendon Shavers and funding him with cash payment

The name or info on any credentials or identity that Trendon Shavers may have assumed.

The location Trendon Shavers may stopped at to purchase and/or hide assets.

The name of any paramours Trendon Shavers may have had during his time in Dallas

And information that may verify his current location and how long he plans to remain in this location.


However when the many issues were brought up in this  thread, I withdrew my offer to assist in reviewing the PM's  as there is already enough FUD.

Believe what you may, I am not a Attorney.  I am not an investigator.  I do not work for the SEC.

I am just a member of this community who is publicly collecting information on another scammer.   

Careful... there are two ways of interpreting this phrase:

"yet another scammer"

"a fellow scammer"

I know you mean the former, and so I'm just messing with you, but... yeah.

Regardless that is your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it.

I'll be honest, it has nothing to do with you. I just don't think anyone with an anonymous identity should be allowed to go through ANYONE'S PMs. I'd be okay with pretty much anyone else. If "anonymous" individuals get to see them, I want to be able to as well, as there may be plenty of leads on potential future scammers as well as a mechanism to audit the pirate pass-throughs' honesty by using those PMs.

I would also authorize any PM's I've had with pirate to be released, because there aren't any, but I suppose that's besides the point.

I don't know why you are going through all this trouble.  Just fill out one of these forms (http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f3949a.pdf) on anyone you think made income from pirate's adventure, including his wife or PPT operators and let the professionals handle the rest.  People don't report stolen funds to the IRS.  Then the IRS will have dozens of people assigned to the case, instead of just one person.

No trouble at all for me. 

There are evidently a lot of people who don't like this guy and don't mind saying so anonymously.  Problem is no one wants to stick their neck out.

A lot of people are afraid of Trendon Shavers.

We saw as he manipulated hundreds of member of this forum.

We saw these form member begged for his attention and and opportunity to give him their precious bitcoin and then cower in fear and anticipation (of non-payment) over his admonitions.

There were hundreds of pages of Trendon Shavers dox on these boards and when Trendon Shavors made threats most of them disappeared.

People cowered in fear.

I can't fill out these form.  The people who have the first hand knowledge need to fill out these forms.

Who has the address of the Driveway they are sitting in?  Who knows the make and model of these vehicles?

These people are reading these threads.  They tell me so.

Hopefully some of them will come forward and take some action.

I'm just providing information.

Wow. Sounds like you have received some extremely juicy information. Do I understand you correctly that you have now decided to stop pursuing him yourself? If so, how do you feel about publishing the information? I find the whole Pirate saga fascinating, as many do, and I'd love to read about all this stuff. I dunno if you have an interest in entertaining the community, but if you do then you have an incredible opportunity to now do so.

If you'd like someone to write all the info up into an exciting story, I'd be happy to do that. Not that I am denigrating your writing skills, but I write for a living and I think I'd be able to craft something really fun to read out of this stuff.

Maybe contact Wikileaks?

It's too late now, I highly doubt that pirate@40 will be caught..

FYI. "Homeless Jackie" once she was identified and located, has been making efforts to repay.

I do think he will be found, if not caught. Everyone knows his face.

Or at least the face of someone involved.

You could just accidently let "someone" hack bitcointalk, then this "someone" releases the PMs under a newly registered name.

Sorta like how Exchanges get hacked by someone-other-then-totally-not-them, and coins go missing. "It's not our fault, someone anonymously attacked us... blah blah blah... your coins are gone..."

Who is "BCB" and why is he trying to insert himself between the victims and the government?  ???

If you know Trendon Shavers (www.trendonshavers.com) and you know the make and model of the brand new BMW or the F550 truck he recently purchased on any other assets he has,  you might want to let the IRS know about it.  Any assets Trendon Shavors has or controls could only have been purchased with fraudulent income from his Bitcoin Securities Ponzi scheme.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f3949a.pdf
Print the form and mail to:
 
Internal Revenue Service
Fresno, CA 93888
If you do not wish to use Form 3949-A, you may send a letter to the address above. Please include as much information as possible, such as these important points:
Name and Address of person or business you are reporting
The individual’s social security number or the business’ employer identification number
A brief description of the alleged violation(s), including how you became aware or obtained information about  the violation(s)
The years involved
The estimated dollar amount of any unreported income
Your name, address and telephone number*
*Although you are not required to identity yourself, it is helpful to do so. Your identity will be kept confidential.

Who is "proper_proper" and why is he trying to act like he knows shit? ???

Oh yeah, loser sockpuppet. How'd that 100% gain in that investment go?

 :-*

Rick James, I'm only asking questions.

BCB is a man that has developed a reputation around here for getting results, when it comes to chasing down scammers. 

Says the guy who can't capitalise or spell.   ::)

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/029/364/failboat2.jpg?1318992465

Swing and a miss.  

Now, let's say you and I go toe-to-toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor?

you bring your law suit and i'll come with a law tuxedo

^ Your Law Tux eh? Is that like the Technicolor dreamcoat?

pirate's account was used yesterday.  theymos, can you tell us whether he tried to delete any PMs while online?

He didn't. I have his PMs backed up, anyway.

Did he have a Texas ip? Or Thai?

Texas. It's the same IP he used in August, in fact.

Great, thanks for that info.

Crazy, I always figured he'd use some kind of proxy.

and why would it not be a proxy?

Guy's a dumb ass if he really bought a F550 truck as a personal vehicle... What of waste of money..


http://www.autoguide.com/new-cars/2012/ford/super-duty-f-550-drw/index.html

I think we've established the guy's no Professor Moriarty.

I guess, But even having a tiny bit of common sense would stop you from buying such a ridiculous eyesore as an everyday vehicle. I don't think I believe that information. Seriously a F550.. It's a bloody tow truck.

Well, I am assuming it isn't a proxy because it's a Texas IP and he's been doxed as genuinely living in Texas, although I guess it could still be a proxy.

Slightly odd though, to use a proxy in the same town that you are in. Might as well use one somewhere else. If I was him I'd be spoofing my IP to be in the far corners of the globe rather than my home town, although in all honesty he's probably not concerned about getting caught.

In that picture it looks like shit but look at this model:

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/wp-content/uploads//2010/06/Super-Duty-F550-CNG.jpg

It's still an ugly thing but I imagine that a Texan would think that was cool as shit.

Even worse. The one you pictures is probably in to the $60k's ... NUTS...



For money like that you could be driving a brand new Subura WRX STi...... an actual coool vehicle to drive... not some hillbilly flat bed to haul my empty beer bottles.

You're Canadian, right? Don't feel bad, even people from northern US states don't fully understand Texans. Look at it this way: It's a surrogate penis.

ahhh.. I c ... Little junk, wife is gross looking... Gotta make it up somewhere eh?

Yup.

What evidence do you have of this?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=110435.0

http://blockchain.info/address/1HmFKJkCfcyEfPT4Z1yn9iVJ8C3JZj38nw

Ahh, ok.

firstlady0524 is not the person behind Homeless Jackie. She shouldn't be making payments for anyone scammed by Homeless Jackie, either, because that person is different. It sounds like firstlady0524 is from Illinois, and I'm certain the person behind Homeless Jackie lives in the Hoboken, NJ area.

The reason why I would want Homeless Jackie's PMs & IPs would be because I suspect it is possible "she" has other accounts here and may have been involved in a botnet ring.

I would just want Pirate's for the info that could be used to identify other criminal activities by forum members.

Yes firstlady0523 is from Chicago.  I through "Homeless Jackie" was a euphemism for first lady.  Never heard the nick "Homeless Jackie" before it was mentioned in the firstlady thread.

firstlady0524 is also a member of the "the bottling network"  (http://thebotnet.com/) if that is any help.