Bitcoin Forum

today i checked and found someone left me negative feedback saying i am selling forum accounts
but it is allowed by forum zo i am not doing anything against forum rules

then why they left me negative and ruined my reputation

this default trust guy think he is supreme and can give negative for something that is allwed by forum admin
why such guys are on DT,

admin if they are not following your rules then take an action
they are misusing power of DT

want to listen comment of theymos about this, either he disallow account selling or take action

Technically speaking, scamming is not against the rules either, however people leave negative trust for that (and that is what negative trust is designed for).

It looks like jonald_fyookball left you negative trust. He has left a number of other very questionable trust ratings in the past, and has let emotion get to him when leaving trust ratings. 

He is currently on BadBear's trust list. I would suggest that you message BadBear to see if he is willing to remove Jonald from his trust list.

i did any scam?
i am not supporting any scam attempt on forum and whenever someone try to scam using account I sold then I am ready to share buyer information if they involved in scam attempt
you know this QS,in past i have shared information for any potential scammer

if that DT guy is doing this emotionally then he deserve his position on DT?
if he have done this in past then why don't he got warning for this

admin, either solve the issue or disallow selling accounts on forum
if you think selling accounts here reason for spam

I am saying that using the argument that selling accounts is not against forum rules therefore you should not receive negative trust for selling accounts is a weak one.

I am suggesting that your approach be that you attempt to get jonald_fyookball removed from BadBear's trust list.

I don't think negative trust is warranted in your case, and that it is naive to think that leaving negative trust on account sellers is going to do anything to stop account sales. Plus selling forum accounts is going to make it more difficult for scammers to have +EV when they attempt their scams.

Selling Forum Accounts Is Allowed in the forum.
See here : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=958097.msg10484714#msg10484714
In the above link you will find that staff "EAL" has itself too made a bid to buy an account in forum.
And The rule of the forum says this :


So you doesnot deserve that red feedback ! Talk to that person in PM about this who gave u this feedback once ))

According to the "unofficial official rules of the forum", having multiple trading accounts was okay. But selling was discouraged. He never actually said it wasn't allowed. So, technically, you can do it.


Harvest as many accounts as you want if need be.

For the lazy, OP is talking about jonald_fyookball[1] set on DT level 2 by BadBear

[1] https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=261027

You do know that trust isn't moderated right? It doesn't matter if account sales are allowed or not, jonald_fyookball can give you a negative rating if they want to. There is nothing you can do about it, well, except asking them to remove it.

theymos wrote :
"If you disagree with the border-negative, leave a positive rating responding to the negative, even if you already have a positive rating for that person. Don't delete your old rating. You should also consider excluding the inaccurate- rater from your trust list." I disagree with the border- negative, and so am leaving a positive rating responding to it.

My trust don't worth much but i didn't like his abuse of trust for being a DT.

You might consider stopping the account selling.  Then he/she might remove the negative trust...  

if forum admin disallow this i will stop immedeately
but trust me stop selling forum accounts doesn't gona stop spam/scam on forum

i think you forget that admin stops trust spam and can take action if he is agree with me
waiting for theymos comment on this

uhh, he simply don't agree what are you doing regardless any rules and he just express his opinion via trust rating and warn others, that you are obviously involved in account selling/farming.

what is a problem dude?

Leaving one negative feedback regarding a suject he indeed sees as negative won't be considered "trust spam" by anyone.
Spoiler alarm: theymos won't.

forum allowed buying/selling accounts but still DT guy left me negative
so only thing we can expect from most DT guys are misuse of their power ,nothing else.they will support the guy from their family(from DT) not other normal users,no matter if the DT guy is wrong.as you can see here by most DT users

why I not see his comment?(only in untrusted feedbacks), my trust setting- 2 depth, without exclusion

don't worry you are selling accounts too so you may see a comment on yours profile soon by him

as i said already I can't expect something good from DT guys because most of them are afriad of losing their position on list so they won't sAy truth
i will wait for admins comment if he change rule to disallow selling forum accounts if he think it will stop spam/scam on forum

i lost my faith in DT, after seeing the peoples on list, most of them are just afraid or doesn't have courage to support truth

DT =/ forum.
And "only thing we can expect from most DT guys" is to give feedback according to their opinion.
They support whoever they think is right, and thats good this way.


I disagree with you. I think by leaving negative feedback to you he showed courage,
since, as you are doing now, it can be criticized, and (depending on BadBear) he might have risked losing his position because of this.

and they change their opinions after reading other
if one say its wrong then they all will say its wrong,if someone say its right they will say its right
most of the time they follow others blindly
actually they don't have their own opinions,they just copy others

I don't think that is a nice thing to say.   :-[

I took a stand against Microsoft key scammers against public opinion.  I received a lot of slack because of it.

I'm certainly not a puppet that follows the will of others. 

It's silly and counter-productive leaving negatives for this. Doesn't do anything to stop it and all you're doing is making people look unnecessarily bad and inevitably forcing them to create new accounts to sell from (and ironically are more likely to scam from those accounts seeing as they're throwaways).


Why should he? It's not against the rules and shouldn't be forced to stop just because Jonald doesn't like it. Jonald should just remove the feedback unless he is now willing to be the account sales police and be consistent in leaving anyone negative feedback who has or is selling accounts. Going by the feedback he has left on op he also needs to tag shorena, zazarb, Outlander, laosai, AccountTrader, knightdk, FruitsBasket and the dozens of other members that are selling accounts in Digital Goods or Auctions every day.

Maybe you're the puppet-master in neotox's little illusory world.
I also strongly disagree with him.

This is inline with the way most employees in the workforce are. Their actions are dictated by others that they follow. None of them want to get out of line. They will only conform if the one in charge tells them to modify their actions/behavior.
I see his comments as account farming. But you aren't doing that, your selling. Maybe this can be your line of your defense. That red mark does not look good at all on your profile for the line of work that you do.

If you want to piss off others, this is the way to go.

Its time for a final decision if forum allow buying/selling accounts or not
its time to confirm who is right admin or some guys on DT who think they are supreme

That is a long list of accusations and they will undoubtedly have a fight to pick with the accuser.
This will get ugly really fast if this is not resolved right now by a forum administrator. Not necessary Theymos but BadBear should make their presence felt in this discussion.

Probably because of one of the 62 people on your trust list.


I personally want to hear the other side of the story. Give them some time, I dont think they even know the thread exists yet.

+1

i doubt he will ever press the red button on shorens profile. i mean he is not that brave.

Blatant account farming. I think this is bad for the bitcoin forum, is spammy, contributes to scamming. I will leave negative trust for anyone blatantly selling accounts.

According to the feedback left on Neotox acct he is gonna do just that. Im assuming he will be patrolling the auctions and digital goods sections leaving feedback for all

change the rule! everyday there a lot of auction or buy it now of new account, from junior to hero member !
If OP get negative trust, there is the needing to change some rule in the forum!

but I think that there is no needing to change this rule, because every one can farm his accounts without problems.

yes he is not brave to do this
even shorena is not brave that he just changed his positive feedback on my profile to neutral because of fear

Maybe you guys didnt read exactly what vod said. ''Then he/she might remove the negative trust...  '' Did you skip this part?

By the way OP, if you complain about your red trust, you should also be complaining about your green trust: ''I've escrowed several account trades for Neotox now. Transactions always smooth and painless. Good trader''

So because someone escrowed something for you, you get green trust? I don't see how that makes you trustable, so if you want your red trust removed you should also ask for the green trust to be removed.

I'm not worried ;D (It would be interesting to see what the proposal should he me, where to put them- hanging on the wall?)

strange that the recently day community very unanimously "threw" some member from DT just for positive feedback left for successfully trade, but not "enough size", currently situation opposite.

I have no problem even if they remove whole trust system from forum because its better to have no such system then giving ipower to the guys who misuse them against forum rules

giving power to such users is like giving loaded gun to monkey, if someone doesn't have ability and take action emotionally then its same thing
if you get power you get responsibility too, but if if after getting power someone think they can do anything then its worst then giving gun to monkey

See, you are overreacting and jumping to conclusions without considering what my actual reasons are. Clam down. Take a walk, boil a tee, smoke, whatever, but you are not thinking clearly right now because you see your business attacked. I understand that, but its not helping you.

I changed my rating for the escrow to neutral because I never risked anything so it should not be positive. I also gave a neutral rating for a ~0.7 BTC escrow deal. I think its not fitting for the escrow to hand out positive ratings for a single deal. See e.g. SebastianJu's rating on your profile. Considering that I dont do escrow often and not even have a thread for it, I think its only natural that Im still working out how to rate these deals.

I think the rating should be removed and I will probably leave a counter rating if there are no convincing arguments by jonald. Now lets behave like grown ups and wait for a statement from jonald.

I think if someone will have a neg trust even he want to sell an account , lending sectiont on BTCtalk will be close shortly!

I appreciate that Neotox and  a little (really little) group of user  sells  account with their own account .

There was a time when the lending section dealt with valid collateral - not other accounts.

There is a difference between these two subjects here.
Farming and selling. Neotox is selling accounts not making them for the stake of selling them. I see farming as the main reasoning behind the red trust left. That in itself is bad for the forum, but selling accounts should not be.
This fine line of whoring out accounts should be addressed here, right here right now!

 ;)

Let's see if it happens.   I'll then ask the same of the sale of hacked MS accounts. 

Other people I'm sure will have other issues they want addressed.

I not really clear. Sorry. I would say that if Neotox sell an account for collect a defaulted loan, and he sell this in digital section using his own account so "Neotox sell 2 member account" for example, it would be appreciate! Because there was a lot of user that open account only for sell on digital section o auction section.....

I do not think negative feedback (at least from DT) is deserved just for selling accounts unless there's an agreement/rule to forbid it or unless trusted/green accounts are being sold to untrustworthy users or other actions are made that may help scammers (which is not the case here AFAIK, let me know if I'm wrong).

Besides I think jonald_fyookball has left several undeserved negative and positive trust in the past, I've explicitly removed from my trust list a couple of months ago.

However OP you're criticizing him for acting "emotionally" and frankly you're much more guilty of that in this thread. Your generalized accusations are not helping too much. I get you must be affected by this but try and be more objective about all this.

---

That said maybe it's worth (re-)opening a discussion to decide whether selling accounts should be forbidden or at least not used as collateral. But until the community decides it trusted negative feedback is not deserved.

This is Neo's thread. Stay the matter at hand and it might be resolved if all the accused of account "farming" listed on the first page comes and comments, then Theymos might take heed to come to a conclusion himself.

Creation of another thread would be suggested if any other things would be addressed, ie MS accts and the sort.

thanks for explanation, found even three very reputable member(in 2 level) who excluded jonald_fyookball. and thanks that count my trust list, has always been a mystery to me how many of them there ;D

The admins have never banned account selling so giving negative trust for it should not be reasonable.
Every user decides for himself to give trust or not, but this is not reasonable so he should be removed from DT 2.

You have to ask:  What's the point of this forum?

I say its to have fun, meaningful, informative
dialouge...AKA BITCOINTALK.

How does buying and selling of accounts contribute
or support that in any way, shape or form?

It does just just the opposite, IMO, and I haven't
seen a good argument to the contrary.

"People are gonna do it anyway" isn't a good argument.
I still think it should be discouraged.
 
People either buy an account to make themselves
appear as someone they are not (either a noob
who wants to appear a seasoned veteran, or an outed
scammer who wants a fresh start)... OR MAYBE, just
maybe they plan to use the account to participate
in a signature campaign, which puts their main
intention as making money, not contributing the
to the forum.

And thats the same mentality behind farming accounts.
Its just selfish profiteering that has no legitimate
purpose for everyone else that just wants to talk
about Bitcoin.

People complain about the quality of posts here.
Well, this sure ain't helping and as long as
the powers that be keep me on default trust,
I'm sure not gonna support it.

The only reason its not outright banned
is because it would be impossible to enforce
and give the illusion that people with history
can be trusted when there would be blackmarket
selling of accounts anyway.

That's fine, but doesn't mean I have to condone it.

Neotox,if you want to stop selling accounts, I'll
remove the negative.

I don't believe in double standards either.
If there's someone else selling accounts, PM
me and I'll do the same.  

It doesn't mean I'm agreeing to police anything,
but if its brought to my attention and its
blatant as it was here, I feel perfectly justified in leaving
my opinion via negative feedback.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.  

You have no problems now but when you had the green trust you obviously didn't want the system to be removed. So far all the DT members that have been abusing the system have been punished and eventually kicked out of the DT position.

People also can buy accounts because it is then easier for them to start up a business because if a newbie starts a new buissiness then most people will not pay any attention. Although most accounts are used for signature campaign, but still not a valid reason to give neotox a negative trust.
Mayby he only buy and sell accounts and he does not earn from his alt( alts wear mayby no signature).

Heres to making myself a target lol

The list of people "blatantly selling accounts is long; In the past I have seen many trusted members sell accounts I'm not one for naming though. What is blatantly selling accounts anyway? Should they be sold in a side ally of the forum with no escrow? Jokes aside that would be safe..

Speaking of escrows, are they facilitating the sales of accounts by offering their service? Many buyers would not buy btct forum accounts should they be dealing with untrusted sellers without escrow. So should they get negative trust also as they play just as big role do they not?

On to me; I have in the past sold many accounts even up until the other day/week. Maybe take a look at what I require from recent posts if you are to by an account from me lol They are never sold to people without being vetted. From 100's of accounts I've sold 3 have turned scammer and that was the same member = I dealt with that before they could actually scam though and the community was warned before any bad actually happened so no accounts I've sold have went on to part people from their money.

Imagine the spam should account sales be policed and stopped. People still want accounts and instead of buying them they will be spamming the forum for them to rank up. I have to add, when you buy an account you consciously make effort to make good posts because after all it is an investment and you A, don't want the account banned. B, You want to get paid for your campaign so thus 90% of accounts are looked after more than normal.

To recap- not one of my 100's of sold accounts have gone on to scam so that is not a good excuse to leave neg trust.

Bye for now    

Your point is stupid and not real. Why would people trust someone that is Hero member just because he is a Hero member, you shouldn't do that and im sure it's not the case. I haven't seen anyone having problems promoting his website, everyone starts without trust, you build trust slowly, buying an account just to promote your site would make you look more suspicious.

Who determines what's a good reason to give negative trust if trust is not moderated?

If they are truly a newbie on the forum, why should we trust them?

Are you saying its a good thing that a newbie can come on the forum,
pay a few satoshis, instantly appear more trustworthy, and then
use that appearance to start a business where people will be
sending them money?  
 
This is EXACTLY the kind of thing I'm trying to discourage.

I've always had my doubts regarding selling accounts, especially to newbies and even more to users with negative trust. However it's allowed now.

Directly leaving negative trust is not the way to discourage something that could happen indirectly. I agree leaving negative feedback would be deserved if someone sold an account to a user with negative trust; didn't warn when he realized a former buyer was trying to scam; or didn't help to stop him; or willingly helping a scammer in any way.

But to establish a no-account-selling policy further discussion is required. Even if admins just limit to "it's allowed because it can't be prevented" or "it would happen anyway" you could start a thread to ask for non-admin-but-trusted-members' opinion. There we could discuss the implications of having that practice strongly discouraged.

DT members' non-neutral feedback is/should be more than just an opinion because it can render accounts green or red.  

It is ?

Can you paste a reference please?

For example:

I agree with theymos it's not a very nice activity. But it's not directly scammy and to establish a policy to forbid/strongly discourage it more discussion is required.

I interpret this as a single person can sell their main account if they have an emergency.  I don't think Theymos is condoning account farming here.

Of course he is not ''I find it pretty distasteful (it's like selling your identity)'' I have nothing against selling accounts without any trust but when people sell accounts with green trust and even DT accounts, quickseller used to, that shouldn't be allowed and to stop that the only way would be to stop all account sellings.

can you provide even one proof that I bought/create to farming even one account ? or maybe you have proof that even one from 4 or 5 account (total) which I  sell scammed someone? Or maybe you have solution Where to put them, when  scamer left after default loan? or you here just for fun taged with red, because they are not engaged in the.

I don't think the OP is account farming, and neither is zazarb. From what I can tell, they are acquiring accounts via loans and when their borrowers do not repay, they sell the accounts to cover the loan, plus some amount for profit.

theymos specifically gives the example of giving accounts for collateral for loans, and it is ridiculous to say that someone who accepts collateral that was rightly owned by the person taking such loan should not be able to sell that collateral in the event the loan is not repaid.

ToSellorNotToSell has implied that he is selling his main account, although it has taken him a very long time to sell it.

Thanks for that statement.

The forum is also a marketplace, whether you like/use it as such or not. Accounts are used as collateral. People leave the forum and sell their account for a few coins. Its all selfish, yes. Bought accounts cause spam, yes. So do other "self grown" accounts. I understand your goal, but what you are doing will not help you reach it. Sure you might stop Neotox, but others will see this and just create a fresh newbie account to sell an account. Account trades will have more risks involved. An estiblished account has an incentive to stay honest, they have build a reputation they can lose. A newbie has nothing to lose.

You are not harming the spammers, you are also not harming the scammers. You are harming those that use their main account and risk their reputation, those that can be held accountable for their actions.


But because account trades happen openly you know you cant trust an account just because it has a high rank.

So if someone is on DT or has positive trust, they should not be allowed to sell their account?

In other words, if someone has acted honestly within the community, earned positive trust after trading honestly, they should not be able to put their account up as collateral when they have an emergency need for money? If they are in need of money, and cannot sell their account, then why would they not simply scam to cover their needs?

We can't stop dishonesty, we can only discourage it.

Are you saying you believe I should remove the negative trust
and just let the account farmers like Neotox continue on their
merry way? 

Wow, this is just getting bad. Neotox and zazarb have neg trust of jonald.
Account selling is legal and should not deserve negative trust. Didn't you read the quote from Theymos?

It is prety mean to give a good guy like neotox and zazarb a negative trust while they did not deserve it.
I hope you will see what u are doing jonald... Abusing the trust!

The person who sent a negative trust was not justified as selling accounts has been taking place for years now but what about people sending positive trust to negate the trust? Sorry but hilariousandco and EcuaMobi sending trust ratings without any reason doesn't make them look good either. It's misusing the trust system for personal reasons rather than making the person look trustworthy.

No, that is wrong what you say. Jonald is abusing the trust by giving everyone that is/was trusted and seelling accounts  a negative trust.
So we think that it is not fair and give them back their real trust rating. I left Neotox and Zazarb positive trust and will remove those perticular trust when jonald realises that he is abusing the trust system.

That positive feedback is a 'counter' and of course I'll remove it if the referenced negative one is removed or stops being DT. Read this:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1174567.msg12367824#msg12367824

My feedback is not a testimony of OP's trustworthiness,  it's just to counteract the negative one as described.

That's true but the forum is not a friends book/facebook where people send positive trust for the mistake of others. If they genuinely trust the OP, it's different. Would they have given the feedback if this was not the case?

I view the trust system as a medium of getting to know whether a person is trustworthy or not. Now I will see ratings like "I like this person, I love this person, I don't agree with the negative ratings..." which is misusing the trust system.


Oh ok. Thanks for the clarification :)

I don't have a problem with their countertrust.  Thats the trust system working as its intended,
and I'm glad they left it because now those people won't have a red mark if the community
thinks they shouldn't.  Great!  Everyone should be happy.  :D

I don't think I'm abusing the trust system.

It's my opinion still that account farming is untrustworthy behavior, is bad for the forum, and
should be discouraged.  I'm sticking to my principles and expressing that opinion.  

Still I think that you could consider to change it to at least a neutral trust.

Everyone has got an other view on how trust should be used.

Trust: "Risked BTC amount is money that the person could have stolen or did steal. For example, if you do a currency trade where the other person sends first, your feedback for them would have 0 risked BTC and their feedback for you would have risked BTC equal to the BTC value of the trade."

Did they steal anything???

Its to counter the negative jonald has given, and anyone having a look at their trust ratings can see that the positive trust was given to counter the negative. This is IIRC allowed by theymos.

@jonald, would you give me negative trust if/when I would sell/auction 1 forum account?
I don't think 2 accounts is farming, but still I want to know how you think about such situations.

The system should t least be changed to which only the users involved in a transaction can give feedback ratings.
So if I bought an account from the OP, I'm the only who has the right to give feedback whether it be positive or not for which the reference shall also be the transaction ID/thread.

I too am against selling/buying/auctioning accounts and even people using their account as a collateral. However, I don't think it would stop the sales of accounts as it has been a practice for years. It is the admin who has allowed people to farm accounts by users being allowed to have more than 1 account per IP. According to your trust feedback, admin also deserves a negative rating?

I guess 1 or 2 accounts probably isn't farming.  But having an ongoing thread selling multiple various accounts clearly is.

Apparently my opinion isnt that popular here... although several people PM'd me expressing
they also dont like the account farmers.

I'm kind of surprised anyone supports it, but hey its your forum.  I'm just one person.  I gave my opinion.
You can agree or disagree.

Yes, but I also dont think they (Neotox at least) are farming the accounts. As I recently did escrow in one of Neotox's account trades, it was as Quickseller says. Someone leaving the forum looking for some coins. They sell the account for cheaps to Neotox and they resell it for more. Its a simple principle. A dedicated (and well known) seller has more time (and possibly a higher reputation) and thus can achieve higher prices. The same is probably true for those that mainly lend coins, but take an account as collateral. They dont want the account, they dont want to haggle over a few satoshi, they just want to get their coins back. I was in this position myself. I auctioned the account and I see it now form time to time posting in a campaign. IMHO the posts are fine.


I dont think you are abusing the system either, but I dont think trust should be given to win an argument either.

Well you are on DT, your opinion carries weight if you attach it to a rating. I dont like farming accounts either or rather I dont like accounts that are farmed with spam and as you said this is your real problem. Its not actually that accounts are traded or those trading the accounts. Its the spam. Or did I get that wrong?

-- Yes, I post two in a row, because this thread moves faster than me.

I'll put the question publicly- https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1263526.msg13075456#msg13075456
have nothing to say?

You said:
So if you didn't farm them, where did you get them from?  Bought them?  Can you show an example?

Judging from


I'd say those are collaterals from defaulted loans.


Did he enter any amount on that field? It says 0 to me.



So I need to be actually scammed by an obvious scam attemp/known scammer in order to leave negative feedback to him and warn others? Great idea.

He is getting them from the loan service that he provides, in which he also accepts bitcointalk accounts as collateral.
Edit: Damn you lutpin, you're too fast

i removed from zazarb.

im outta here for the day.  holiday family time.

be well everyone.

Your personal message and your message (via negative rating) are directing somewhere else , aren't they ?

however, Neotox is not likely to stop because he is not in a paid sig' and -9999 counts to nothing in such circumstances.

Selling accounts is not against the forum rules.
Leaving negative feedback to anyone, for any reason, is also not against forum rules.
/thread

Initially wanted to ignore this, however it seems like it gained more attention than it should. My opinion is simple: Even though you have every right to give someone a negative for any reason, I feel like a neutral is more appropriate here.

You are not. You are using it correctly.

Seeing that quickseller sold accounts, even DT accounts and never got a negative trust rating for it, yeah I guess it should be a neutral trust rating.

I disagree with his ratings against Neo. I agree selling accounts/farming/spamming sucks, but is not against the rules. With Jonald being in the DT network his ratings carry more weight and need to not be bias to personal opinion. I also disagree with his positive feedbacks to Tspacepilot for no reason. Tspace now has lots of trust for nothing at all. If he was not in the DT then fair game feel free to drop a negative as it does not mark him red for others. At worst you should leave a negative for this.

On Tspacepilot, I disagreed with Wardrick, who has horrible judgement (the guy defended the obvious scammer Woodcollector) so Theymos pretty much straight up told me to counter his trust.

Others are doing that now for Neotox, and I'm fine with it.

It doesn't make sense to counter a feedback that doesn't exist anymore (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=138744). Wardrick removed the feedback and tspacepilot doesn't have any negative DT anymore. I'm "doing that now" here but as I said (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1263526.msg13075629#msg13075629) of course I will remove it if the negative is removed or isn't DT anymore (as I did on zazarb's profile after you removed your negative), so it's not a valid excuse.

...but we're going off-topic.

well i wasn't aware of it, its not like i'm keeping tabs on tspacepilot or wardrick.

I changed the neotox to neutral because of the number of strong opinions here.

I guess this solves it then. I've removed my counter.

Actually maybe i'm getting wardrick confused with tecshare lol...but i still disagreed with his feedback.

(You mean TF?) He is not on DT (and could hardly be further away from it) so a DT counter doesn't make sense there either as it's supposed to be to remove the "undeserved" red from the account. But again off-topic so I'm just leaving now.

stupid idea, so i need to give a scammer my money to leave him negative trust saying he is a scammer?


Scamming isnt against the rules, the mods dont care about scams, why do we leave negative trust for scams?

again, scamming isnt against the forum rules, why give negative rep for that?

Maybe but im sure you just cracked under pressure, you had a negative rating on another user for months, did these points not come to you?
did you not care because the person was of a low rank?
maybe because his initial rating was neutral?

You should be excluded from DT, you have to stand firm by your decisions

Wrong. He did the right thing here changing it. This is the proper way to moderate trust.

why on DT if your trust ratings have to be constantly moderated?
Why change your ratings for two trusted members but leave those that  have less trust to suffer through with your negative ratings because they did the same thing that neotox and zarzabab did
This is lone discrimination, discrimination based on rank and trust

You dont have character,
You need character to be on DT
True character is doing what is right even if no-one is looking or supports you
You just crack under pressure
Just ask BadBear to take you off his trust list, you are an embarrassment to DT

Well my comment was only about being willing to change a rating. I have not looked into his other ratings.

Hi jonald_fyookball,
The reasons that you gave here are good and acceptable at least for me but did the negative trust that you gave to the members of this forums helped to decrease the number of selling accounts? Personally I see that the situation getting worse, now sellers are hiding their identities and creating new accounts to prevent a potential negative trust in their original accounts. Buyers start doing the same... Everyone is afraid and we will simply see a newbie selling full/sr/hero member to newbie, and I think that the scam attempts will be higher than Neotox selling one of his defaulted loan account to a member/full/sr... At least in case of scam we could have a chance to figure one of the scammer accounts..

Prohibiting this will never work, we will simply see 3w.buybitcointalkaccounts... and we could imagine the disastrous consequences then.
Maybe DT will not listen to this but I recommend to avoid NT in such situation (or a neutral trust).

Please tell me, what effect will a neutral rating have?

I still believe everything I said about account farming and feel justified leaving
negative trust.

However, because many trusted members felt they wanted to override my
opinion (and left positive default trust countering mine), I decided to
listen to the wisdom of the crowd and change it to neutral for neotox.

I really don't know why they are defending him, but I'm still warning
anyone else that I will be most likely leave negative feedback
when I see people farming accounts.

Please tell me, what effect will a negative rating have?
My answer is this example: seller X (known senior member) got a NT, he will stop selling accounts and have his NT removed. Meanwhile another account will appear seller Y (unknown newbie, no-one knows he is seller X) who will sell an account and will get a negative trust then another newbie account will appear and do the same...etc

Hope this example will answer your question.

Edit: jonald, you are free to do what you think is correct but I recommend to discuss this with theymos or badbear.

Hello

Anyone who thinking that I am farming account is wrong, I am buying them for cheap from original owners who are either leaving the forum or need some money and I sell them for some profit

I used multiple escrows for buying selling accounts including sebastianju,monbux,master-p,shorena,blazed,Muhammed Zakir,redsn0w etc

I am not farming the account,I buy them and resell for some profit.

Theymos already made his position clear and don't have time to step into every quarrel.

And choose which condition is better? (Don't say both are wrong because as long as forum allow selling accounts one of them will happen for sure)

1. Someone sells account from his reputable account and is responsible to provide any information required of buyer in case sold account used for any illegal activity

2. Someone make a new account to sell accounts and after selling account he leave his new account that he made just for selling other account, so whenever required you can' contact him and ask information about to whom the account was sold and proofs.

This forum allow selling account and if they keep giving negative rating to higher level accounts then people will start making new account to sell them as long as it is allowed by forum.

IMO selling accounts from using new account should be discouraged so people sell them using their real identity and we know who is responsible to provide information in future if required.

Well said. I like the word you choose to call them.  ;) MONKEY ;)

I believe god has gave you at least little bit of working brain. If you think you got a working brain than can you prove you're red trust how it will stop account selling?

Don't behave like a immatured kid, please grow up. Common man you can try to grow up at least now you got chance to prove yourself.

I never said it would stop account selling. 

Then why you created all this mess?

Think before you act on any thing you post in public. If you know it won't reduce account selling then don't simply create problems for others instead think on how to stop it once for all. Hope you understood what I'm trying to say.

No one can stop account selling but we can discourage it and I think my point was well made.

I don't appreciate your pejoratives.  Please keep them to yourself.



 

I think my question is still ignored

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1263526.msg13080636#msg13080636

Now you are pushing it ....who should answer it ? None other than admins can do that and don't say me you need a reply from theymos ...
majority of the old forum users vouched for you and you should just lock it now.

I am not pushing it and not asking admin's answer on this
I want to listen to comments of the guys who think selling accounts should be disallowed

OK, I will keep my points with me.

But if you don't know how to solve problem than do not post your shit things in this forum. Keep it yourself and enjoy.

After so many people posted you can't even discourage selling account with red feedback but still you're shit mind didn't learn lesson means you're doing all these things with some hidden agenda.

I want to ask them so I know I should sell accounts from my this account or not?
I will do whatever they think is good, where are those guys who were against selling accounts, let me know I should sell account using my account Neotox or not?

who is them ? and who are they to answer it ? They just have a right to leave a neg-rep regardless of it being valid or not.
Better make a poll in meta about it .

The guys who are against trading forum accounts
everyone have rights to share their opinions and I want to listen their opinion about which is better selling direct or anonymously.

Just created poll here - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1266386.new#new

Exactly my point. There is a line from selling already made accounts that are acquired and farming accounts from scratch for the sole purpose of selling them for a profit(nothing spent to acquire them).
Farming should be against the rules but selling them should not be if they have bought them or acquired them from a defaulted loan, cause what else are they going to do with them? Let them rot away from not being in use, that would be a terrible waste.

I already wrote this, but I will repeat it. Its commonly agreed that account sales can not be stopped, so lets not argue that point. The question is how to do it best. IMHO its best if you have people like you reselling the accounts as you have something (a reputation and high ranked account) to lose. This gives you an incentive to stay honest as you can be held accountable if mistakes are made.

Its the question that I was asking, we know we can't stop this but making it transparent is better
thanks everyone for their support and help

Hi jonald, i just advised to discuss this with theymos or badbear because I remember i saw a post from badbear in which he said he didn't see why people left a NT to sold accounts or something related to this discussion, I just forgot where I saw it posted and don't remember much of the text, maybe shorena could help? i think i saw you referring to it or commenting there if I am not wrong.

for the third time in this thread, Theymos' stance has already been quoted.

Anyway, there's nothing meaningful in this thread that can be further commented on, so I'm done here.
Generally, I will still continue to neg rate account farmers.

LATERZ

Thanks for making this clear and stating that.
Most on the forums here do get these terms muddled and intertwined with each other.
It is seen through a misty haze when people see these two terms separately.
By the way glad you got your trust back to green.

Just asked this question to theymos .
He told account farming is allowed but giving negative trust to account farmers is not discouraged too..



So jonald wont be removed from the DT as he did nothing wrong according to theymos' statement !

He wouldn't have got removed anyways, the only one who can remove someone from DT is the one who has that person on his trust list unless he abuses extremely theymos wont kick anyone out of DT