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Title: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: Bogart on November 29, 2012, 12:32:13 AM Hi Everyone, We've been very busy recently, unfortunately I couldn't catch up with the forums. There is a correction to be made: Chips are not and were not flawed. We decided to add certain clock buffers to improve noise-resistance and possibly increase frequency even further. The improve in noise resistance was our real goal (average frequency increase across a full wafer can be a bi-product). The decision was made to increase the near 100% chance of success even more. We'll keep you posted. If you had any questions, please let us know. Regards, Nasser So just what is a clock buffer? What does one do, where is BFL likely to be adding them to their product, how many will they be adding, and why that number and location? From the name, I can imagine some of the things one might do. I could just google it, but discussing it here sounds like more fun. Discuss. Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: Keninishna on November 29, 2012, 01:29:37 AM I don't know physically what they will use for a clock buffer but the idea is to improve the signal and reduce noise. Like intel uses 3d tri-gate resistor tech as well as the use of the element hafnium to help with the clock at smaller die sizes. I could be a bit off but this is my understanding.
Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: abeaulieu on November 29, 2012, 01:38:49 AM Buffers themselves usually are implemented to keep noise from feeding back into another system or to create a delay in the signal (hinted at by the name buffer). A clock buffer is implemented more specifically to control rise and fall time of clock edges (google "slew rate"). This allows for the clock to be fanned out with more stability and less jitter.
Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: goxed on November 29, 2012, 06:54:18 AM http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electronic/buffer.html#c2 (http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electronic/buffer.html#c2)
Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: mightycount on November 29, 2012, 06:59:31 AM It's something you add when you don't have a chip.. Eh?
Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: pieppiep on November 29, 2012, 07:19:43 AM You can think of an electric circuit like a network of waterpipes.
When you need a high level of water on the other side of the pipe you let water in. You try to keep the level at a certain hight at the beginning, water will flow until the level at the end is the same. The same happens with electricity, but much faster. You rise the voltage at one end, current starts flowing and the voltage rises at the other end. The parts in a chip for the calculation are usually very close together, so you just need a little current and a short time to rise the voltage. The clock signal however, is needed at many places so the current to rise the voltage in many endpoints needs to be a lot higher. The clock signal is not like a single pipe that needs to be filled with water, but a complete network of many pipes. If you cut the pipe network into smaller pieces, the smaller pieces are filled much faster. At the end of the smaller pieces you place a device that will open a watertap to fill the part after it. The clock buffer is something like this, it reacts on the clock and outputs more current than it receives so that the circuit can have a big clock network. Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: ab8989 on November 29, 2012, 09:11:15 AM The most accurate non-technical synonym I could think of is repeater or amplifier. The clock needs to be routed from one input pin into thousands or millions gates inside the chip that need clock and to do that there is a thing called clock-tree inside the chip, where the single input clock is divided into these millions of consumers. You cannot just use one metal connector strip to do that since the millions of consumers would each get just a tiny fraction of the input voltage or current available and that is obviously not going to be enough. Therefore you are forced to insert buffers ( repeaters ) into this clock tree to regenerate the clock signal characteristics as they degrade when the signal is being split. There are multiple layers of these buffers feeding another buffers feeding another buffers in the tree.
Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: eldentyrell on November 29, 2012, 11:16:08 AM It's what you add when you don't have chips.
Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: bitmar on November 29, 2012, 11:30:19 AM It's what you add when you don't have chips. you can also increase speed (for example from 40GH to 60 GH.) or improve power consumption or give a false date of shipment or be unpleasant for customers or troll competition. You can do a lot of things when you do not have chips ;) Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: Keninishna on November 29, 2012, 12:08:06 PM It's what you add when you don't have chips. you can also increase speed (for example from 40GH to 60 GH.) or improve power consumption or give a false date of shipment or be unpleasant for customers or troll competition. You can do a lot of things when you do not have chips ;) I believe thats called a clock block. Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: elux on November 29, 2012, 01:19:33 PM Hi Everyone, We've been very busy recently, unfortunately I couldn't catch up with the forums. There is a correction to be made: Chips are not and were not flawed. We decided to add certain clock buffers to improve noise-resistance and possibly increase frequency even further. The improve in noise resistance was our real goal (average frequency increase across a full wafer can be a bi-product). The decision was made to increase the near 100% chance of success even more. We'll keep you posted. If you had any questions, please let us know. Regards, Nasser This is a clock bluffer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluff_(poker)). :P Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: bitmar on November 29, 2012, 01:33:39 PM It's what you add when you don't have chips. you can also increase speed (for example from 40GH to 60 GH.) or improve power consumption or give a false date of shipment or be unpleasant for customers or troll competition. You can do a lot of things when you do not have chips ;) I believe thats called a clock block. next "clock block" soon. I bet on performance increase from 60 to 90Gh (why ? -> bASIC - 72GH) BFL employee 1 - "Hey, look at this, Tom has 72GH !!!" BFL employee 2 - "Damn, we need to add more clock block" BFL employee 1 - "Piece of cake, we have enough clock blocks for the whole year" BFL employee 2 - " So, time to start operation clock block !!!" BFL employee 1 - "but what do people will say????" BFL employee 2 - "Fuck this, we will give them 90GH, so they can will wait a few more months, if this is not enough we will give them 200GH or more" BFL employee 1 - "and later we will say that the Chinese have failed" BFL employee 2 - "ok, Check in the calendar Chinese holidays" Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: Bogart on November 29, 2012, 06:02:22 PM OK, those explanations make good sense, and are more or less in line with what I expected.
I imagine that a clock buffer, at one end, receives the signal from a clock source and demodulates it (digitizes it, quantizes it, whatever). Then, based on its now digital interpretation of the input signal, it creates one or more new signals (maybe it has multiple outputs), which may have different characteristics than the input signal, such as amplitude (voltage), wave shape, and probably a delay (offset) relative to the input signal. I can see this being does at the board level, but does it make sense also at the chip die level? Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: MrTeal on November 29, 2012, 06:26:31 PM OK, those explanations make good sense, and are more or less in line with what I expected. I imagine that a clock buffer, at one end, receives the signal from a clock source and demodulates it (digitizes it, quantizes it, whatever). Then, based on its now digital interpretation of the input signal, it creates one or more new signals (maybe it has multiple outputs), which may have different characteristics than the input signal, such as amplitude (voltage), wave shape, and probably a delay (offset) relative to the input signal. I can see this being does at the board level, but does it make sense also at the chip die level? In VLSI design there is the concept of fan-out, which is the the number of gates that a gate has to drive. The larger the load on a gate, the more capacitance slows the rise and fall of the signal edge. You can't just take a clock source and hook it up to a couple hundred points around the chip as the capacitance is such that a minimum sized transistor can't drive it. You can increase the drive capability of the circuit by cascading stages making each stage about 4x larger that the last (see FO4 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FO4)) and by buffering the signal. Just increasing the drive capability of your main clock source isn't always the best answer though, and local clock buffers are often used for different logic blocks. It's basically two inverters in series. They aren't a cure-all though. You still run into skew, where the signal from your clock source arrives later at one part of the chip than another, and jitter, where the period of the clock isn't regular. If they already have a working design "without flaws", they better be damned careful adding clock buffers. Depending on how synchronous the design is, it's not trivial to change a lot in your clocking system without introducing new problems. Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: eldentyrell on November 29, 2012, 09:42:58 PM In VLSI design there is the concept of fan-out, which is the the number of gates that a gate has to drive. The larger the load on a gate, the more capacitance slows the rise and fall of the signal edge. You can't just take a clock source and hook it up to a couple hundred points around the chip as the capacitance is such that a minimum sized transistor can't drive it. You can increase the drive capability of the circuit by cascading stages making each stage about 4x larger that the last (see FO4 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FO4)) and by buffering the signal. Just increasing the drive capability of your main clock source isn't always the best answer though, and local clock buffers are often used for different logic blocks. It's basically two inverters in series. They aren't a cure-all though. You still run into skew, where the signal from your clock source arrives later at one part of the chip than another, and jitter, where the period of the clock isn't regular. If they already have a working design "without flaws", they better be damned careful adding clock buffers. Depending on how synchronous the design is, it's not trivial to change a lot in your clocking system without introducing new problems. This (emphasis added). You don't screw around with the clock tree unless you absolutely have to. Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: Inaba on November 29, 2012, 11:31:37 PM In VLSI design there is the concept of fan-out, which is the the number of gates that a gate has to drive. The larger the load on a gate, the more capacitance slows the rise and fall of the signal edge. You can't just take a clock source and hook it up to a couple hundred points around the chip as the capacitance is such that a minimum sized transistor can't drive it. You can increase the drive capability of the circuit by cascading stages making each stage about 4x larger that the last (see FO4 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FO4)) and by buffering the signal. Just increasing the drive capability of your main clock source isn't always the best answer though, and local clock buffers are often used for different logic blocks. It's basically two inverters in series. They aren't a cure-all though. You still run into skew, where the signal from your clock source arrives later at one part of the chip than another, and jitter, where the period of the clock isn't regular. If they already have a working design "without flaws", they better be damned careful adding clock buffers. Depending on how synchronous the design is, it's not trivial to change a lot in your clocking system without introducing new problems. This (emphasis added). You don't screw around with the clock tree unless you absolutely have to. You should take Elden's words with a grain of salt. He's pretty smart, but has a history of just talking out his ass, as evidenced by the fact that he just makes stuff up as he goes along: It's utterly pointless to compare a standard-cell design to a full-custom design using transistor count. Even between full-custom designs it's normal to see a 4x variation in area based on the foresight of the architect and the skill of the layout designer. By the way, BFL doesn't use the phrase "full custom" to mean the same thing it means in the industry. Quote By the way, BFL doesn't use the phrase "full custom" to mean the same thing it means in the industry. We don't? Please elaborate. (I'm serious, I'm not being snarky. If we/I am using it incorrectly, then I would like to use the proper term.) Standard-cell ASICs and synthesis-flow ASICs are not considered full-custom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_custom) chips. The phrase "fully custom" is a BFL-ism that sounds a lot like "truthiness" :) In fact the third google hit for "fully custom asic" on the entire interweb is BFL which ought to be a hint that it is a contortion of the usual industry terminology... Emphasis mine. (Google "Fully Custom ASIC". 14k results, most of them not BFL. The ones that are BFL? Someone else wrote it. (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=83985.0)) Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: eldentyrell on November 30, 2012, 12:50:14 AM has a history of just talking out his ass, as evidenced by the fact that he just makes stuff up as he goes along: If you can't deal with the facts, go ad hominem... In fact the third google hit for "fully custom asic" on the entire interweb is BFL which ought to be a hint that it is a contortion of the usual industry terminology... Emphasis mine. (Google "Fully Custom ASIC" The thread about BFL is still the third hit, more than a month after I wrote that; see screenshot below taken 29-Nov-2012 at 4:46pm PDT. The second hit is also BFL-related but was started by somebody else, which still supports my statement that "fully custom" is a BFL-ism. The butterflylabs.com website has apparently dropped down to #5 since I wrote that. I'm glad you've started using less ambiguous terminology since then. However I fear that with the latest post by Nasser that progress might be being undone… Seriously, it just doesn't add up on several different levels, which is why I'm poking fun at it. If Nasser posts real, self-consistent, credible details on what went wrong with the first mask set and what the plan for the respin is, I'll gladly switch my avatar back. But I can't blame you for not wanting to give out that much information. http://www.tricone-mining.com/images/inaba-is-a-troll.png I've never heard of these Kromek people before (they seem to be more of an imaging company than a chip design company) and the Boeing hit is a typo since it's the only occurrence of "fully custom" anywhere on boeing.com. Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: Bogart on November 30, 2012, 12:58:50 AM It's utterly pointless to compare a standard-cell design to a full-custom design using transistor count. Even between full-custom designs it's normal to see a 4x variation in area based on the foresight of the architect and the skill of the layout designer. By the way, BFL doesn't use the phrase "full custom" to mean the same thing it means in the industry. Quote By the way, BFL doesn't use the phrase "full custom" to mean the same thing it means in the industry. We don't? Please elaborate. (I'm serious, I'm not being snarky. If we/I am using it incorrectly, then I would like to use the proper term.) Standard-cell ASICs and synthesis-flow ASICs are not considered full-custom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_custom) chips. The phrase "fully custom" is a BFL-ism that sounds a lot like "truthiness" :) In fact the third google hit for "fully custom asic" on the entire interweb is BFL which ought to be a hint that it is a contortion of the usual industry terminology... Emphasis mine. (Google "Fully Custom ASIC". 14k results, most of them not BFL. The ones that are BFL? Someone else wrote it. (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=83985.0)) Eh? Are you trying to tell us that "Fully Custom ASIC" is the correct term? I think this calls for... http://googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=%22Full+Custom%22+ASIC&word2=%22Fully+Custom%22+ASIC Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: Crypt_Current on November 30, 2012, 01:22:47 AM It's what you add when you don't have chips. you can also increase speed (for example from 40GH to 60 GH.) or improve power consumption or give a false date of shipment or be unpleasant for customers or troll competition. You can do a lot of things when you do not have chips ;) I believe thats called a clock block. Best post in thread :D Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: Inaba on November 30, 2012, 02:11:27 AM Quote The thread about BFL is still the third hit, more than a month after I wrote that; see screenshot below taken 29-Nov-2012 at 4:46pm PDT. The second hit is also BFL-related but was started by somebody else, which still supports my statement that "fully custom" is a BFL-ism. The butterflylabs.com website has apparently dropped down to #5 since I wrote that. Elden, you really need to stop when you're ahead. If you even bothered to look at the screenshot you posted, you'd have noticed that Blazr used the term "Fully custom" and, in the VERY NEXT POST you corrected him. So somehow, that's BFL's fault. Yes... makes perfect sense. Now, could you please stop making stuff up and talking out your ass? For reference, it's this thread you are referring to, since you're far too busy to click the links you are citing as evidence about how silly BFL is being: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=117368.0 Quote I'm glad you've started using less ambiguous terminology since then. However I fear that with the latest post by Nasser that progress might be being undone… Seriously, it just doesn't add up on several different levels, which is why I'm poking fun at it. If Nasser posts real, self-consistent, credible details on what went wrong with the first mask set and what the plan for the respin is, I'll gladly switch my avatar back. But I can't blame you for not wanting to give out that much information. So, since you obviously know what you're talking about (can you sense the sarcasm?), could you point out where BFL has used "fully custom?" I would trust what Nasser has to say far more than I would trust anything you have to say (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=108243.msg1212565#msg1212565), since you can't even decipher a message forum correctly. Incidentally, this was the first post (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=83985.0) with regards to BFL's products, as you'll see in the quoted section, it says "full custom" not "fully custom." But go on, tell me again how we don't know what we're doing, even though you insist that we are not doing a "full custom" or a "fully custom" ASIC, and how we're doing "Standard-cell ASICs and synthesis-flow ASICs are not considered full-custom chips." Pretty much everything you've posted about BFL's technology has been... wrong. I don't care if you switch your avatar or not, we've already demonstrated you don't know what you're talking about, so what the hell! Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: eldentyrell on November 30, 2012, 02:28:01 AM So, since you obviously know what you're talking about (can you sense the sarcasm?), could you point out where BFL has used "fully custom?" On the front page of your website. Quote $ curl http://www.butterflylabs.com | grep -i 'fully custom' Our Super Computer platform is a 3rd generation to all our products using a fully custom ASIC processor design. Devices based on this technology are currently scheduled for December delivery. See our <a title="Products" href="http://www.butterflylabs.com/products/">products </a>page if you would like to get on the pre-order list. It's also in the google preview in bold in the screenshot above. I don't care if you switch your avatar or not, we've already demonstrated you don't know what you're talking about, so what the hell! Dude, take a deep breath. Your Ignore tag is at #F2F2D8. Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: hardcore-fs on November 30, 2012, 03:12:23 AM "Full-Custom" can mean F**** all.. anyway.
Since you can take an existing FPGA design and convert it to an ASIC, you have what can be called Full-custom....(in so far as it's your design and its fully custom) But that does not mean the design is ANY good compared to off the shelf IP. Because off the shelf IP is usually developed SPECIFICALLY for a particular ASIC and as such utilizes the BEST possible options for that ASIC, also IP is usually designed by some of the best designers available, whereas many FPGA designs are poorly implemented at best..... A simple example: .... My_Process: PROCESS (clk) BEGIN IF RISING_EDGE(clk) THEN .... g <= b*c*d f <=c*d*e END IF; END PROCESS; Wow it uses absolutely the least amount of terms (it must be fast!!): Minimum period: 6.431ns (Maximum Frequency: 155.506MHz) Example 2 .... My_Process: PROCESS (clk) BEGIN IF RISING_EDGE(clk) THEN ..... tmp_b <=b tmp_e <=e temp_cd=c*d g=b*temp_cd f=temp_cd*e END IF; END PROCESS; Minimum period: 3.901ns (Maximum Frequency: 256.354MHz) 1.WTF!!! (Thats what experience brings to the table) MORE terms MORE logic MORE routing and yet it is faster!!! and that is what good IP can bring to the table... well for V1 anyway 2. Writing for hardware IS NOT the same as programming software. HC Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: Inaba on November 30, 2012, 04:04:00 AM So, since you obviously know what you're talking about (can you sense the sarcasm?), could you point out where BFL has used "fully custom?" On the front page of your website. Quote $ curl http://www.butterflylabs.com | grep -i 'fully custom' Our Super Computer platform is a 3rd generation to all our products using a fully custom ASIC processor design. Devices based on this technology are currently scheduled for December delivery. See our <a title="Products" href="http://www.butterflylabs.com/products/">products </a>page if you would like to get on the pre-order list. Dude, face it, you're full of shit. You know it, I know it... everyone else knows it. We'll just keep this thread warm fro the next time you try to "educate" someone with your special brand of BS, so we can demonstrate, once again, you don't know what you're talking about half the time. Quote Dude, take a deep breath. Your Ignore tag is at #F2F2D8. Well she-it! I better stop railing against idiots then... ooops, too late. Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: Crypt_Current on November 30, 2012, 04:22:57 AM So, since you obviously know what you're talking about (can you sense the sarcasm?), could you point out where BFL has used "fully custom?" On the front page of your website. Quote $ curl http://www.butterflylabs.com | grep -i 'fully custom' Our Super Computer platform is a 3rd generation to all our products using a fully custom ASIC processor design. Devices based on this technology are currently scheduled for December delivery. See our <a title="Products" href="http://www.butterflylabs.com/products/">products </a>page if you would like to get on the pre-order list. It's also in the google preview in bold in the screenshot above. I don't care if you switch your avatar or not, we've already demonstrated you don't know what you're talking about, so what the hell! Dude, take a deep breath. Your Ignore tag is at #F2F2D8. OMG... SUCH a juicy retort... dammit to hell... I have two Jales on preorder annnndddd... Blerrrggghhheerarhahahaha ... ...... Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: Crypt_Current on November 30, 2012, 04:30:37 AM So, since you obviously know what you're talking about (can you sense the sarcasm?), could you point out where BFL has used "fully custom?" On the front page of your website. Quote $ curl http://www.butterflylabs.com | grep -i 'fully custom' Our Super Computer platform is a 3rd generation to all our products using a fully custom ASIC processor design. Devices based on this technology are currently scheduled for December delivery. See our <a title="Products" href="http://www.butterflylabs.com/products/">products </a>page if you would like to get on the pre-order list. Dude, face it, you're full of shit. You know it, I know it... everyone else knows it. We'll just keep this thread warm fro the next time you try to "educate" someone with your special brand of BS, so we can demonstrate, once again, you don't know what you're talking about half the time. Quote Dude, take a deep breath. Your Ignore tag is at #F2F2D8. Well she-it! I better stop railing against idiots then... ooops, too late. DUDE: Josh, Inaba, whatever the fuck your supplier / demanders dub you: AM I going to get some actual, usable ASIC devices? My order# is 8814. Please give me some sort of random, shoot-from-the-hip ballpark half-assed estimate of a ship date for my two (2) Jalepeno ASIC devices. I paid some ~20 BTC for this preorder. (I don't remember the exact amount offhand). PLEASE convice me not to request a refund. These threads are starting to scare me, bro. I'm just trying to play it smart and being honest and am humbly requesting the simplest, most honest truth (even if in the form of personal opinion) regarding these trollatious, FUDalicious allegacusatariums. I drink Steel Reserve, for crissakes. Help a brotha out. Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: Inaba on November 30, 2012, 04:35:48 AM I would estimate around the middle or end of January for that order number... but I'm pullin' an Elden here and just guessing without any data to back that up.
Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: Starlightbreaker on November 30, 2012, 04:40:24 AM I would estimate around the middle or end of January for that order number... but I'm pullin' an Elden here and just guessing without any data to back that up. you never have any data to start with anyways. Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: Crypt_Current on November 30, 2012, 04:43:36 AM I would estimate around the middle or end of January for that order number... but I'm pullin' an Elden here and just guessing without any data to back that up. You may have judged by my avatar pic, that that wild sort of guesstimate will be adequate to satisfy me for any number of days whose names end in the letter "y". I mean seriously you fucking trolls, coming from someone who is the MOST PARANOID PERSON YOU MIGHT EVER MEET, AND ANNOYINGLY SO -- dude above here ^ [Edit: I mean Inaba] has got to be less than willingly losing PRECIOUS SLEEP over even being aware of this forum. There must have been bleeding-edge tech companies in existench in 1986 or 1992 or so ... ok so imagine that OK: There were no fucking message boards like this for your INSTANT EGO-GRATIFICATION... And some of those companies MADE IT... Microsoft. Idiots! Give me my god damned ASICS or I will come to KC with a fucking shotgun you fools but THEY KNOW THIS! That's hyperbole lol worst case scenario i get a refund. ... But don't trust me; I'm a drug-addicted WEIRDO. Also, come find me -- I get off on that. Asshole wastes of life with nothing better to do! http://youtu.be/yqcbu2ozc50 (http://youtu.be/yqcbu2ozc50) "Worms keep everything... EVERYTHING... Down." Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: Inaba on November 30, 2012, 04:51:58 AM I bet you are simultaneously terrifying and total F'ing awesome to hang out with. :)
Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: Crypt_Current on November 30, 2012, 04:54:25 AM I bet you are simultaneously terrifying and total F'ing awesome to hang out with. :) To inaccurately paraphrase Meatloaf: One out of two ain't bad. Fly me out! I promise great times! Or I can ride a greyhound. I'll go cheap dude. I'm in STL. Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: MeSarah on November 30, 2012, 05:03:10 AM @ Crypt_Current, if you overdose can I get your BFL hardware, if BFL doesn't cancel your order?
Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: Crypt_Current on November 30, 2012, 05:09:11 AM @ Crypt_Current, if you overdose can I get your BFL hardware, if BFL doesn't cancel your order? lol, no -- I have a full will written up. Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: Frizz23 on November 30, 2012, 08:30:59 AM There must have been bleeding-edge tech companies in existench in 1986 or 1992 or so ... ok so imagine that OK: There were no fucking message boards like this for your INSTANT EGO-GRATIFICATION... Idiots! Yes, yes, graybeard - the Internet is the work of the devil. Everything was better in the old days ... Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: Crypt_Current on November 30, 2012, 02:12:29 PM There must have been bleeding-edge tech companies in existench in 1986 or 1992 or so ... ok so imagine that OK: There were no fucking message boards like this for your INSTANT EGO-GRATIFICATION... Idiots! Yes, yes, graybeard - the Internet is the work of the devil. Everything was better in the old days ... That is not at all what I meant; you miss the point. My point is that companies probably face much more aggressive onslaught from trolls nowadays because communications technology has advanced to the point of specific, detailed messages having the ability to be delivered instantly. and HEY! Just because I happen to have a couple gray hairs in my beard now && I do sometimes feel "old", it does not mean I am some fuddy-duddy. I'll be 33 in February. I fucking love the Interwebs man; it's my life. Food, water, shelter, and wifi, those are the necessities. I just also dislike ignorance and rampant unexcused boredom, and where those two things meet up generally make for an individual who is extremely annoying to me. And just for the record, FUCK the old days. Only thing I missed about 'em was the thrash metal, and bands like Warbringer, Havok and Vektor are doing a fantastic job of keeping thrash alive and solidifying it as a bona fide style of rock. I look ahead -- sometimes much too far ahead. i.e. circa 2600 AD when quantum computing becomes reality and we get upgraded to triple-helix DNA... ;D Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: lukasbradley on November 30, 2012, 03:25:19 PM I fucking love the Interwebs man; it's my life. Food, water, shelter, and wifi, those are the necessities. If you haven't already, you should read this. http://www.amazon.com/Snow-Crash-Bantam-Spectra-Book/dp/0553380958/ref=la_B000APS8L8_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1354289056&sr=1-1 Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: Phinnaeus Gage on November 30, 2012, 05:32:34 PM Quote Wow, you caught a typo and have been playing off of that for months, congratulations! To be fair, Josh: This is Google's cache of http://whoisly.com/source/butterflylabs.com. It is a snapshot of the page as it appeared on Oct 27, 2012 13:42:35 GMT.: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:uDv4RePYSAUJ:whoisly.com/source/butterflylabs.com+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us Quote Our Super Computer platform is a 3rd generation to all our products using a fully custom ASIC processor design. Devices based on this technology are currently scheduled for October delivery. This is Google's cache of http://www.butterflylabs.com/. It is a snapshot of the page as it appeared on Nov 24, 2012 17:42:35 GMT.: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:4h0EglEDG5wJ:www.butterflylabs.com/&hl=en&tbo=d&gl=us&strip=1 Quote Our Super Computer platform is a 3rd generation to all our products using a fully custom ASIC processor design. Devices based on this technology are currently scheduled for December delivery. Later, bud. ~Bruno K~ Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: Inaba on November 30, 2012, 06:05:22 PM Quote Wow, you caught a typo and have been playing off of that for months, congratulations! To be fair, Josh: This is Google's cache of http://whoisly.com/source/butterflylabs.com. It is a snapshot of the page as it appeared on Oct 27, 2012 13:42:35 GMT.: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:uDv4RePYSAUJ:whoisly.com/source/butterflylabs.com+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us Quote Our Super Computer platform is a 3rd generation to all our products using a fully custom ASIC processor design. Devices based on this technology are currently scheduled for October delivery. This is Google's cache of http://www.butterflylabs.com/. It is a snapshot of the page as it appeared on Nov 24, 2012 17:42:35 GMT.: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:4h0EglEDG5wJ:www.butterflylabs.com/&hl=en&tbo=d&gl=us&strip=1 Quote Our Super Computer platform is a 3rd generation to all our products using a fully custom ASIC processor design. Devices based on this technology are currently scheduled for December delivery. Later, bud. ~Bruno K~ Yes, I know, I just corrected it, since it was a typo no one ever mentioned before. In all other communication, we use "full custom" and that one spot had an extra "y" erroneously appended, which is what Elden has been banking on for months, since he doesn't have anything legitimate to add. Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: P_Shep on November 30, 2012, 07:11:17 PM This whole thread is about a typo?
Holy fuck. :( Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: creativex on November 30, 2012, 07:27:58 PM No, the thread has been derailed by discussion about a typo. The thread is about BFL's explanation of one of their issues with their ASIC products.
Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: GenTarkin on November 30, 2012, 07:51:27 PM You should take Elden's words with a grain of salt. He's pretty smart, but has a history of just talking out his ass, as evidenced by the fact that he just makes stuff up as he goes along: This, coming from someone who has the same exact history, in fact his employer has that history too.. Fucking talking out ur asses! Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: Unacceptable on November 30, 2012, 09:45:58 PM Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: SLok on December 01, 2012, 12:56:50 AM This whole thread is about a typo? Every thread turns into a venting opportunity for a bunch of sour guys that otherwise would be staring at the bitcoin mining calculator page, thinking of what could have been.Holy fuck. :( Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: abeaulieu on December 01, 2012, 01:23:28 AM This whole thread is about a typo? Every thread turns into a venting opportunity for a bunch of sour guys that otherwise would be staring at the bitcoin mining calculator page, thinking of what could have been.Holy fuck. :( Agreed. This thread was presumably a technical question relating to electronic design and ASIC manufacturing. Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: eldentyrell on December 01, 2012, 02:41:29 AM This whole thread is about a typo? Well, it was about clock buffers and then Josh/Inaba decided it ought to be about typos (or terminology, at least). I'd rather talk about mask sets, respins, and clock buffers. Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: Starlightbreaker on December 01, 2012, 04:41:59 AM This whole thread is about a typo? Well, it was about clock buffers and then Josh/Inaba decided it ought to be about typos (or terminology, at least). I'd rather talk about mask sets, respins, and clock buffers. Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: Inaba on December 01, 2012, 05:21:22 AM This whole thread is about a typo? Well, it was about clock buffers and then Josh/Inaba decided it ought to be about typos (or terminology, at least). I'd rather talk about mask sets, respins, and clock buffers. There's no diversion, it's called "Correcting people who are spreading false information." Don't post false information, I won't correct you. Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: MrTeal on December 01, 2012, 05:30:38 AM This whole thread is about a typo? Well, it was about clock buffers and then Josh/Inaba decided it ought to be about typos (or terminology, at least). I'd rather talk about mask sets, respins, and clock buffers. There's no diversion, it's called "Correcting people who are spreading false information." Don't post false information, I won't correct you. Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: Inaba on December 01, 2012, 06:24:12 AM Nothing... I was referring to and correcting Elden as to his BS about how BFL isn't using a full custom ASIC and pointing out that just about everything he says about BFL turns out to be wrong, so people should be wary about what he says with regards to clock buffers, as it's clear he's either got an agenda or doesn't know what he's talking about (or both).
Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: BitSyncom on December 01, 2012, 06:49:40 AM Nothing... I was referring to and correcting Elden as to his BS about how BFL isn't using a full custom ASIC and pointing out that just about everything he says about BFL turns out to be wrong, so people should be wary about what he says with regards to clock buffers, as it's clear he's either got an agenda or doesn't know what he's talking about (or both). Good luck with this and your custom material QFN packaging, at this point I personally seriously doubt you'll be able to ship on time. Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: creativex on December 01, 2012, 07:07:11 AM Nothing... I was referring to and correcting Elden as to his BS about how BFL isn't using a full custom ASIC and pointing out that just about everything he says about BFL turns out to be wrong, so people should be wary about what he says with regards to clock buffers, as it's clear he's either got an agenda or doesn't know what he's talking about (or both). Good luck with this and your custom material QFN packaging, at this point I personally seriously doubt you'll be able to ship on time. Have they ever? Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: BitSyncom on December 01, 2012, 09:22:37 AM Have they ever? It is my job not to under estimate my competitors, but now with the recent news and simulations the Avalon engineering team has ran. I now agree with them completely. p.s. This means for a long time the engineering team has believed BFL will not ship on time. p.p.s. for us to run the process of creating a custom QFN packaging it'll take 3 month. Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: eldentyrell on December 01, 2012, 10:12:39 AM Elden as to his BS about how BFL isn't using a full custom ASIC I never said that. Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: bitcoindaddy on December 01, 2012, 01:41:48 PM Where is all this hate coming from? Most of you haven't even ordered an ASIC from BFL so why would you care if they ship on time or not?
Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: creativex on December 01, 2012, 04:03:48 PM Just because you didn't order from them doesn't mean you're unaffected by their delays. I ordered from their competition, so I most definitely care if/when BFL ships. This effects the entire crypto economy.
For myself, I don't hate BFL, I'd just prefer they hadn't been able to capture such a huge piece of the ASIC pie with their dishonest tactics of promising what they have no chance of delivering. Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: Inaba on December 01, 2012, 04:21:15 PM Elden as to his BS about how BFL isn't using a full custom ASIC I never said that. Are you a pathological liar or something? Are you denying you wrote this? It's utterly pointless to compare a standard-cell design to a full-custom design using transistor count. Even between full-custom designs it's normal to see a 4x variation in area based on the foresight of the architect and the skill of the layout designer. By the way, BFL doesn't use the phrase "full custom" to mean the same thing it means in the industry. Quote By the way, BFL doesn't use the phrase "full custom" to mean the same thing it means in the industry. We don't? Please elaborate. (I'm serious, I'm not being snarky. If we/I am using it incorrectly, then I would like to use the proper term.) Standard-cell ASICs and synthesis-flow ASICs are not considered full-custom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_custom) chips. The phrase "fully custom" is a BFL-ism that sounds a lot like "truthiness" :) In fact the third google hit for "fully custom asic" on the entire interweb is BFL which ought to be a hint that it is a contortion of the usual industry terminology... I asked you point blank if we are not using the phrase "full custom" correctly to describe our chips, what is wrong with it. You proceeded to explain that what BFL was describing was a Standard-cell ASIC and/or synthesis-flow ASIC. Ok, so I guess I missed a reason as to why you post such nonsense: You a) Have an agenda, b) Don't know what you're talking about or c) are a pathological liar. I guess it's up for grabs which one. Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: Starlightbreaker on December 01, 2012, 04:33:10 PM Have they ever? It is my job not to under estimate my competitors, but now with the recent news and simulations the Avalon engineering team has ran. I now agree with them completely. p.s. This means for a long time the engineering team has believed BFL will not ship on time. p.p.s. for us to run the process of creating a custom QFN packaging it'll take 3 month. february or march then? :P Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: SLok on December 01, 2012, 05:10:55 PM Just because you didn't order from them doesn't mean you're unaffected by their delays. I ordered from their competition, so I most definitely care if/when BFL ships. This effects the entire crypto economy. How does their delay effect "the entire crypto economy"? You should jump from joy at every bfl delay, so the delay from your vendor does not push you too far back behind that tenfold/whatever difficulty line. About that pie, so far there's a max. 300pcs batch at Avalon, there's a max. 1000pcs batch at bctfpga, and anyone else that wants a piece of the pie can only go to bfl. How can that be bfl's fault?For myself, I don't hate BFL, I'd just prefer they hadn't been able to capture such a huge piece of the ASIC pie with their dishonest tactics of promising what they have no chance of delivering. Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: BitSyncom on December 01, 2012, 05:30:30 PM Quote from: SLok Just because you didn't order from them doesn't mean you're unaffected by their delays. I ordered from their competition, so I most definitely care if/when BFL ships. This effects the entire crypto economy. actually there is more than 300, just that we are releasing smaller batch at a time to avoid back orders. soon as we start shipping we'll start the order for the next batch, our chip batch is much much greater than that For myself, I don't hate BFL, I'd just prefer they hadn't been able to capture such a huge piece of the ASIC pie with their dis How does their delay effect "the entire crypto economy"? You should jump from joy at every bfl delay, so the delay from your vendor does not push you too far back behind that tenfold/whatever difficulty line. About that pie, so far there's a max. 300pcs batch at Avalon, there's a max. 1000pcs batch at bctfpga, and anyone else that wants a piece of the pie can only go to bfl. How can that be bfl's fault? Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: ElectricMucus on December 01, 2012, 05:35:50 PM Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: SLok on December 01, 2012, 06:05:39 PM Quote from: SLok How does their delay effect "the entire crypto economy"? You should jump from joy at every bfl delay, so the delay from your vendor does not push you too far back behind that tenfold/whatever difficulty line. About that pie, so far there's a max. 300pcs batch at Avalon, there's a max. 1000pcs batch at bctfpga, and anyone else that wants a piece of the pie can only go to bfl. How can that be bfl's fault? actually there is more than 300, just that we are releasing smaller batch at a time to avoid back orders. soon as we start shipping we'll start the order for the next batch, our chip batch is much much greater than that ps fixed that quote for you. Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: creativex on December 01, 2012, 06:08:17 PM Just because you didn't order from them doesn't mean you're unaffected by their delays. I ordered from their competition, so I most definitely care if/when BFL ships. This effects the entire crypto economy. For myself, I don't hate BFL, I'd just prefer they hadn't been able to capture such a huge piece of the ASIC pie with their dishonest tactics of promising what they have no chance of delivering. How does their delay effect "the entire crypto economy"? You should jump from joy at every bfl delay, so the delay from your vendor does not push you too far back behind that tenfold/whatever difficulty line. About that pie, so far there's a max. 300pcs batch at Avalon, there's a max. 1000pcs batch at bctfpga, and anyone else that wants a piece of the pie can only go to bfl. How can that be bfl's fault? Did you intend these as serious questions? I'll treat them as such, despite the fact that a couple seem self evident. First, I *AM* personally pleased that BFL is spinning it's wheels, because as you say I benefit from their failures. It does not however benefit the crypto community to have a product that would obsolete GPUs and eventually FPGAs promised for October shipping be delayed until Q1 2013. How many have based their purchase decisions off this (mis)information. Looking back I simply cannot be convinced there was any chance whatsoever BFL could ship a working ASIC in October, but it certainly wasn't obvious in August. BFL locked up pre-orders based on a fairy tale shipping date they had zero chance of achieving. This is the second time they've done this with a product launch. How much damage has been done to Avalon, BTCFPGA, and ASICMiner by this tactic? Pre-orders paid for in BTC 6 months ago? What's the real cost of a BFL Single SC to those miners? $1299/$6/BTC = 216.5*$12.25 = $2652.13 Now that's a serious chunk of change for 60Gh, but it would've still been easily worth it if those early adopters had been the sole ASIC hashers working on 50BTC blocks. A "fuzzy" shipping date of 1/13 will make it difficult to imagine those early adopters being repaid for many months as ASICs come online from other vendors that didn't sell pre-orders so far in advance and come much closer to meeting their shipping schedules. This is the kind of stuff that lawyers salivate over. Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: SLok on December 01, 2012, 07:00:57 PM Just because you didn't order from them doesn't mean you're unaffected by their delays. I ordered from their competition, so I most definitely care if/when BFL ships. This effects the entire crypto economy. For myself, I don't hate BFL, I'd just prefer they hadn't been able to capture such a huge piece of the ASIC pie with their dishonest tactics of promising what they have no chance of delivering. How does their delay effect "the entire crypto economy"? You should jump from joy at every bfl delay, so the delay from your vendor does not push you too far back behind that tenfold/whatever difficulty line. About that pie, so far there's a max. 300pcs batch at Avalon, there's a max. 1000pcs batch at bctfpga, and anyone else that wants a piece of the pie can only go to bfl. How can that be bfl's fault? Did you intend these as serious questions? I'll treat them as such, despite the fact that a couple seem self evident. First, I *AM* personally pleased that BFL is spinning it's wheels, because as you say I benefit from their failures. It does not however benefit the crypto community to have a product that would obsolete GPUs and eventually FPGAs promised for October shipping be delayed until Q1 2013. Yes, I was serious about asking on your thoughts about this. I've marked the difference in the 2 answers, economy against community btw. GPU's made CPU mining obsolete, it's just progress happening. To me it looked more like a warning to not put massive amounts of money in gpu's, and I'm glad I did not. How many have based their purchase decisions off this (mis)information. Looking back I simply cannot be convinced there was any chance whatsoever BFL could ship a working ASIC in October, but it certainly wasn't obvious in August. I don't know how many, but it has been said before, only put money in you can afford to loose. To many people only saw it as a chance to cash in quick without a single care for the crypto currency or -community. About those suggested production/delivery dates, you are absolutely right. BFL locked up pre-orders based on a fairy tale shipping date they had zero chance of achieving. This is the second time they've done this with a product launch. How much damage has been done to Avalon, BTCFPGA, and ASICMiner by this tactic? Pre-orders paid for in BTC 6 months ago? What's the real cost of a BFL Single SC to those miners? No one paid $2652 for btc for a single, but the equivalent of $1299. Bitpay gave bfl $ for btc, so $1299 is what bfl got. If currencies going up/down would have to be compensated, would you pay up if your earlier payed btc's value would have went to $2? I don't know how Avalon and btcfpga suffered, they have more orders than they can fill atm, hence the second batches. "BFL locked up pre-orders based on a fairy tale shipping date they had zero chance of achieving." -Agreed about them fairytale dates and knowing before they would not happen, unless they had last minute major fuck-ups with those asics, but they deny or they won't tell. Locked up pre-orders/money, no, at any moment people can, and always could, step out.$1299/$6/BTC = 216.5*$12.25 = $2652.13 Now that's a serious chunk of change for 60Gh, but it would've still been easily worth it if those early adopters had been the sole ASIC hashers working on 50BTC blocks. A "fuzzy" shipping date of 1/13 will make it difficult to imagine those early adopters being repaid for many months as ASICs come online from other vendors that didn't sell pre-orders so far in advance and come much closer to meeting their shipping schedules. This is the kind of stuff that lawyers salivate over. Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: creativex on December 01, 2012, 07:28:11 PM You seem to discount BFL's role in this at nearly every turn and as this conversation is OT anyway I'm going to let it go, but will happily continue discussing it in an appropriate existing thread. Does BFL deserve a scammer tag...for instance.
Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: SLok on December 01, 2012, 07:56:13 PM You seem to discount BFL's role in this at nearly every turn and as this conversation is OT anyway I'm going to let it go, but will happily continue discussing it in an appropriate existing thread. Does BFL deserve a scammer tag...for instance. Blame bfl for not delivering on time, while the whole gpu/fpga community is profiting from that, and if they will deliver, blame them for killing that community of gpu/fpga miners. It's indeed mostly a bunch of sour guys here, staring at that bitcoin mining calculator page, thinking of what could have been. Good luck with the scammer thread. Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: Inaba on December 01, 2012, 08:01:04 PM Quote BFL locked up pre-orders based on a fairy tale shipping date they had zero chance of achieving. This is the second time they've done this with a product launch. How much damage has been done to Avalon, BTCFPGA, and ASICMiner by this tactic? Pre-orders paid for in BTC 6 months ago? What's the real cost of a BFL Single SC to those miners? Locked up pre-orders? Really? Can you point me to a single person who hasn't gotten a refund that has asked for it? No? Ok, then you lied again. Quite the habit with you. Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: creativex on December 01, 2012, 08:18:38 PM Quote BFL locked up pre-orders based on a fairy tale shipping date they had zero chance of achieving. This is the second time they've done this with a product launch. How much damage has been done to Avalon, BTCFPGA, and ASICMiner by this tactic? Pre-orders paid for in BTC 6 months ago? What's the real cost of a BFL Single SC to those miners? Locked up pre-orders? Really? Can you point me to a single person who hasn't gotten a refund that has asked for it? No? Ok, then you lied again. Quite the habit with you. lol yer a hoot. :) Why must you always play dumb. You know as well as I do those guys are trapped. If they cancel their orders and request a refund then what? Back of the bus with the competition? Their options suck, because they trusted you when you said it'd be different this time, but it's not different this time is it Josh? Same fairy tale shipping dates pushed back a couple weeks at a time. Keep them hooked as long as possible because their refund option becomes less and less appealing over time. Oh but it's not BFL's fault, they're acting with integrity(obviously) and prowess, it's just that they're among the least lucky companies in the history of business. Please. ::) Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: Inaba on December 01, 2012, 08:26:01 PM Yeah, how's that "week after Thanksgiving" or was it 1st week of December shipping date (It was kind of fuzzy from the start) from your vendor working out? Got your ASIC yet?
Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: creativex on December 01, 2012, 08:35:04 PM Nope, but you knew that. Worked about as well as FIFTH WEEK OF NOVEMBER worked for your customers. I only ordered in mid October however. Additionally since bASIC01 is SO much cheaper per Gh(45.8% less) than your company's overpriced products I'm good thanks. ;D Now if you guys could just drop the ball ONE more time...CHA-CHING! You can do it Josh!
Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: meowmeowbrowncow on December 01, 2012, 08:37:16 PM Nope, but you knew that. Worked about as well as FIFTH WEEK OF NOVEMBER worked for your customers. I only ordered in mid October however. Additionally since bASIC01 is SO much cheaper per Gh(45.8% less) than your company's overpriced products I'm good thanks. ;D Now if you guys could just drop the ball ONE more time...CHA-CHING! You can do it Josh! lolz Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: Inaba on December 01, 2012, 08:53:22 PM Yeah, and BFL will still be shipping before bASIC. As for cheaper per G/h, good luck with that, but you already knew that BFL would match competitive offerings. Enjoy your 200w piece o' junk that is obsolete before it even ships! Oh, tell me again how much power or even what kind of power connector bASIC is going to be using? Do you get a PSU with your unit? No? You mean you have to BUY a PSU, cables, etc...? Really? So I guess that $1069.00 isn't really the REAL cost of running a bASIC is it? Yay for hidden costs! At least BFL is up front and honest about the cost of a unit.
Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: creativex on December 01, 2012, 09:06:59 PM Yeah, and BFL will still be shipping before bASIC. As for cheaper per G/h, good luck with that, but you already knew that BFL would match competitive offerings. Enjoy your 200w piece o' junk that is obsolete before it even ships! Oh, tell me again how much power or even what kind of power connector bASIC is going to be using? Do you get a PSU with your unit? No? You mean you have to BUY a PSU, cables, etc...? Really? So I guess that $1069.00 isn't really the REAL cost of running a bASIC is it? Yay for hidden costs! At least BFL is up front and honest about the cost of a unit. I hope for the sake of BFL customers that turns out to be true...unlike nearly everything else you've said with regard to BFL shipping dates. Since when is BFL up front or honest about anything? If you guys had told everyone in September that October shipping was a fairy tale, and the reality was a "fuzzy" hopefully maybe January shipping date, how many would've cancelled then? Now that's some HUGE hidden cost. I have a dozen PSUs on hand thanks, not worried about it, but I appreciate your concern. :D Perhaps your concern would be better utilized getting your own very late product out the door? Oh that's right you said January all along...cept when you didn't. ::) Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: abeaulieu on December 01, 2012, 09:47:47 PM Yeah, and BFL will still be shipping before bASIC. As for cheaper per G/h, good luck with that, but you already knew that BFL would match competitive offerings. Enjoy your 200w piece o' junk that is obsolete before it even ships! Oh, tell me again how much power or even what kind of power connector bASIC is going to be using? Do you get a PSU with your unit? No? You mean you have to BUY a PSU, cables, etc...? Really? So I guess that $1069.00 isn't really the REAL cost of running a bASIC is it? Yay for hidden costs! At least BFL is up front and honest about the cost of a unit. Quoted for emphasis. Hopefully BFL/Inaba can be sure to fulfill this promise then. Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: PuertoLibre on December 01, 2012, 11:11:36 PM No one paid $2652 for btc for a single, but the equivalent of $1299. Bitpay gave bfl $ for btc, so $1299 is what bfl got. If currencies going up/down would have to be compensated, would you pay up if your earlier payed btc's value would have went to $2? I don't know how Avalon and btcfpga suffered, they have more orders than they can fill atm, hence the second batches. They took in only 300 to make sure (they said) they could deliver in a shorter time frame than other vendors. With BTCFPGA, they may start a second batch as their initial batch is 30% (or thereabouts) not filled with paying customers. BTCFPGA is not all that different than BFL in their order sizes. "BFL locked up pre-orders based on a fairy tale shipping date they had zero chance of achieving." -Agreed about them fairytale dates and knowing before they would not happen, unless they had last minute major fuck-ups with those asics, but they deny or they won't tell. Locked up pre-orders/money, no, at any moment people can, and always could, step out. I think the warning sign is when employees start to bail from the company.At that point I would worry that the whole thing will fall apart. Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: Jack1Rip1BurnIt on December 01, 2012, 11:14:19 PM I wasn't around when BFL first started advertising their FPGA single, so I've got a question that I'm sure someone in here knows the answer to.
How long did it take for the first Singles to ever start arriving to customers after their initial release date was supposed to happen? 3 months? 6 months? Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: PuertoLibre on December 01, 2012, 11:15:16 PM Quote BFL locked up pre-orders based on a fairy tale shipping date they had zero chance of achieving. This is the second time they've done this with a product launch. How much damage has been done to Avalon, BTCFPGA, and ASICMiner by this tactic? Pre-orders paid for in BTC 6 months ago? What's the real cost of a BFL Single SC to those miners? Locked up pre-orders? Really? Can you point me to a single person who hasn't gotten a refund that has asked for it? No? Ok, then you lied again. Quite the habit with you. lol yer a hoot. :) Why must you always play dumb. You know as well as I do those guys are trapped. If they cancel their orders and request a refund then what? Back of the bus with the competition? Their options suck, because they trusted you when you said it'd be different this time, but it's not different this time is it Josh? Same fairy tale shipping dates pushed back a couple weeks at a time. Keep them hooked as long as possible because their refund option becomes less and less appealing over time. Oh but it's not BFL's fault, they're acting with integrity(obviously) and prowess, it's just that they're among the least lucky companies in the history of business. Please. ::) Well unless your second option ships before BFL. That would be the ultimate act of humiliation for that company. Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: PuertoLibre on December 01, 2012, 11:18:38 PM Nope, but you knew that. Worked about as well as FIFTH WEEK OF NOVEMBER worked for your customers. I only ordered in mid October however. Additionally since bASIC01 is SO much cheaper per Gh(45.8% less) than your company's overpriced products I'm good thanks. ;D Now if you guys could just drop the ball ONE more time...CHA-CHING! You can do it Josh! The facts hurt, huh?Edit, by the way, they already did. The new date for reciept of BFL ASIC (not shipping out to customers, mind you) has now been revised from Dec 11 to later in the month. Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: Bogart on December 01, 2012, 11:31:17 PM I wasn't around when BFL first started advertising their FPGA single, so I've got a question that I'm sure someone in here knows the answer to. How long did it take for the first Singles to ever start arriving to customers after their initial release date was supposed to happen? 3 months? 6 months? I think it was remarkably similar to the same timeline a year ago. They were supposed to ship October-ish in 2011, but actually shipped in March of 2012. Furthermore, backlog of orders was only recently caught up on now in November 2012: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/41-fpga-orders-all-shipped.html Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: PuertoLibre on December 01, 2012, 11:32:21 PM Yeah, and BFL will still be shipping before bASIC. As for cheaper per G/h, good luck with that, but you already knew that BFL would match competitive offerings. Enjoy your 200w piece o' junk that is obsolete before it even ships! Oh, tell me again how much power or even what kind of power connector bASIC is going to be using? Do you get a PSU with your unit? No? You mean you have to BUY a PSU, cables, etc...? Really? So I guess that $1069.00 isn't really the REAL cost of running a bASIC is it? Yay for hidden costs! At least BFL is up front and honest about the cost of a unit. I hope for the sake of BFL customers that turns out to be true...unlike nearly everything else you've said with regard to BFL shipping dates. Since when is BFL up front or honest about anything? If you guys had told everyone in September that October shipping was a fairy tale, and the reality was a "fuzzy" hopefully maybe January shipping date, how many would've cancelled then? Now that's some HUGE hidden cost. I have a dozen PSUs on hand thanks, not worried about it, but I appreciate your concern. :D Perhaps your concern would be better utilized getting your own very late product out the door? Oh that's right you said January all along...cept when you didn't. ::) First they said they would put their shipping dates first rather than compete with the new hash rate for the bASIC device (60Gh/s Vs 72Gh/s).Then promptly, they released information that they would not receive their first batch until Mid December. Then revised the revision again to make it sometime in January. (A full 30 day delay) Now we have a BFL representative that says their chips were not ready due to the adding of clock buffers. Recently implemented to reduce noise on the chip as well as aid in the overclocking of the chip. Following on the heels of an announcement that they will be revising their chips packaging to include metal rather than plastic components. --------------------------- What does this spell out to you? It spells out to me that shipping is not their first priority. It spells out to me that revising their hardware for competitive sake (at the cost of time) is their first priority. Counter-intuitive to what the two BFL representatives stated not more than a few days ago. Hence, this is why the framing of the information....seems a bit off. If someone were polite enough to ask a BFL representative if they were indeed changing their chip to a metal packaging on their FIRST revision, then that would clearly indicate their chip is still being revised and that even the January date is an optimistic sign. Later on, if this speculation is spot on, they will release information that thier chip is actually not 60Gh/s but something higher. (Probably at the cost of more electrical juice, a beefier power adapter and a few months time.) Keep in mind, if they are having a hard time sourcing High AMP wall adapters...I can only imagine how much harder it will be if this speculation is spot on. Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: eldentyrell on December 01, 2012, 11:51:39 PM Elden as to his BS about how BFL isn't using a full custom ASIC Are you a pathological liar or something? Not at all; are you? Because this is certainly a lie: You proceeded to explain that what BFL was describing was a Standard-cell ASIC and/or synthesis-flow ASIC. If this were true you would have quoted it. By the way, BFL doesn't use the phrase "full custom" to mean the same thing it means in the industry. Are you denying you wrote this? Not at all. I called you out on ambiguous and misleading terminology and you're trying to somehow construe that as a prediction about a product I've never seen. Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: eldentyrell on December 01, 2012, 11:59:45 PM I think the warning sign is when employees start to bail from the company. At that point I would worry that the whole thing will fall apart. Unfortunately (and quite strangely) BFL keeps the real names of their employees secret, so I doubt we would find out about it until long afterward. Sonny, his father, and Nasser were identified only by searching public records, and their press release (http://news.yahoo.com/butterfly-labs-announces-next-generation-asic-lineup-054626776.html) weirdly uses initials instead of surnames. Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: eldentyrell on December 02, 2012, 12:05:11 AM Hence, this is why the framing of the information....seems a bit off. Be careful. If you point out inconsistencies and ambiguities in BFL's announcements Josh will start rageflaming you. Spoken from experience. Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: PuertoLibre on December 02, 2012, 12:47:27 AM Hence, this is why the framing of the information....seems a bit off. Be careful. If you point out inconsistencies and ambiguities in BFL's announcements Josh will start rageflaming you. Spoken from experience. What you have received though is hardly comparable to what I may have received. Theymos (and Tom of bASIC) has an inkling as to what I mean. Other than that, no comment. Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: ElectricMucus on December 02, 2012, 01:01:11 AM Hence, this is why the framing of the information....seems a bit off. Be careful. If you point out inconsistencies and ambiguities in BFL's announcements Josh will start rageflaming you. Spoken from experience. Little I know about designing chips but wouldn't a real, and most effective Bitcoin chip be better done without a clock or clockless? Units waiting for Data could so automatically be suspended and resume work just in time when they are needed. Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: PuertoLibre on December 02, 2012, 01:22:26 AM Hence, this is why the framing of the information....seems a bit off. Be careful. If you point out inconsistencies and ambiguities in BFL's announcements Josh will start rageflaming you. Spoken from experience. Question: Do you remember when one BFL representative started to mention FCC requirement for certifying a device and various other certification required for producing a device that complies with various international regulations? Background 0: A BFL representative when asked about their own compliance with such regulations went on record to state that their device was currently in testing. (presumably at a lab) Background 1: Later, after that debacle, when asked if there were any functional prototype devices, the BFL representative stated there were none at that time. (November) Question: How can a device be sent to the FCC labs for testing and certification if there is no working and functional prototype? Is that the reason why additional clock buffers were added? To reduce noise? (Admittedly, this is unlikely, but possible) Note: I presume that the clock buffer are/were to reduce noise localized to the chip. But I have to ask, was the noise leaking further than the immediate area of the chip? Did it fail FCC certification or inspection? Further, if there are no prototypes, then what was sent in late October for evaluation? [Speculation] Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: abeaulieu on December 02, 2012, 01:46:27 AM Little I know about designing chips but wouldn't a real, and most effective Bitcoin chip be better done without a clock or clockless? Units waiting for Data could so automatically be suspended and resume work just in time when they are needed. Let me be the first to tell you that doesn't make any sense. Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: beekeeper on December 02, 2012, 02:21:10 AM Hence, this is why the framing of the information....seems a bit off. Be careful. If you point out inconsistencies and ambiguities in BFL's announcements Josh will start rageflaming you. Spoken from experience. Little I know about designing chips but wouldn't a real, and most effective Bitcoin chip be better done without a clock or clockless? Units waiting for Data could so automatically be suspended and resume work just in time when they are needed. Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: Inaba on December 02, 2012, 02:27:16 AM Quote Then promptly, they released information that they would not receive their first batch until Mid December. Then revised the revision again to make it sometime in January. (A full 30 day delay) There you go lying again Puerto Libre. Why do you insist on manufacturing facts and lying about things that can be readily discovered by anyone putting in even a little bit of time? Quote ot at all; are you? Because this is certainly a lie: Everything I say can be backed up with facts... just like the fact that you are, apparently, a pathological liar. Faced with undeniable quotes you yourself made, you try to claim you "Oh no, I didn't really mean you wern't going the full custom route." Whatever, you are a joke Elden. Just like Puerto Libre and CreativeX you have to make up "facts" to bash BFL. You are pathetic. Unlike Puerto Libre and CreativeX, I had some respect for you until it became clear that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and you're still pissed off BFL rained all over your parade last year. If you were able to actually develop something people wanted, BFL wouldn't have been able to steal your thunder. But as it is, you're just a has been who can't actually compete so you resort to bashing and crying. Pathetic. The point still stands, anything you say with regards to technology and BFL in particular needs to be evaluated for "truthiness," because you're incapable (or unwilling) to actually tell the truth when it comes to design. I'd hate to have actually tried to work with something you designed, it'd have be likely to electrocute me or something with your poor understanding of engineering. Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: hardcore-fs on December 02, 2012, 02:28:16 AM Hence, this is why the framing of the information....seems a bit off. Be careful. If you point out inconsistencies and ambiguities in BFL's announcements Josh will start rageflaming you. Spoken from experience. Little I know about designing chips but wouldn't a real, and most effective Bitcoin chip be better done without a clock or clockless? Units waiting for Data could so automatically be suspended and resume work just in time when they are needed. Face-palm...... I cannot think of any useful digital logic design that is "clock-less" (suspend/resume is in-fact a type of "clock") As is the case for a number of manufacturers.... this is what happens when sales people speak to engineers... Sony also does it, you will find that the whole industry is ripe with it (using engineering terms incorrectly, that is.....) http://funnysalescartoons.com/photo/dilbert-product-knowledge (http://funnysalescartoons.com/photo/dilbert-product-knowledge) http://funnysalescartoons.com/photo/dilbert-as-a-sales-engineer-on?context=latest (http://funnysalescartoons.com/photo/dilbert-as-a-sales-engineer-on?context=latest) Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: PuertoLibre on December 02, 2012, 04:02:37 AM Get some education and help bud, not all of your current and future customers can be "pathological/liars". There is always a cause behind every situation. Find out what the commonalities are as a first step to a resolution.
http://www.dce.k-state.edu/humanecology/conflictresolution/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DVGZRYvxqc It can be anything from communication issues to simply a lack of a broad understanding of a series of issues. Fitting your current/former/future customers base into a labeled box of "liars" is an uneducated way of going about finding a resolution to these issues. A former customer can be won back if you pamper them. Though you don't write to them as if they are trash once you have issued a refund. If you consider them trash or a waste of resources, at the tip of a hat, then what does it say about your valuation of these individuals buying products from you? Stop with the "pathological liar" routine and start somewhere helpful. If there is an issue, find a way to correct it and resolve the issue. P.S. Also, get Jody on the same page. Lately her statements are broad reaching and causes conflicting pieces of information to not jive with different statements. Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: ElectricMucus on December 02, 2012, 04:06:01 AM Hence, this is why the framing of the information....seems a bit off. Be careful. If you point out inconsistencies and ambiguities in BFL's announcements Josh will start rageflaming you. Spoken from experience. Little I know about designing chips but wouldn't a real, and most effective Bitcoin chip be better done without a clock or clockless? Units waiting for Data could so automatically be suspended and resume work just in time when they are needed. Face-palm...... I cannot think of any useful digital logic design that is "clock-less" (suspend/resume is in-fact a type of "clock") As is the case for a number of manufacturers.... this is what happens when sales people speak to engineers... Sony also does it, you will find that the whole industry is ripe with it (using engineering terms incorrectly, that is.....) http://funnysalescartoons.com/photo/dilbert-product-knowledge (http://funnysalescartoons.com/photo/dilbert-product-knowledge) http://funnysalescartoons.com/photo/dilbert-as-a-sales-engineer-on?context=latest (http://funnysalescartoons.com/photo/dilbert-as-a-sales-engineer-on?context=latest) No need to insult me, this was a simple question. And not for you btw. I asked it because I have a multiprocessor chip at home which is in fact refereed to clockless and has the exact property I described, the GA144. Of course there is are oscillators to drive the processors but they communicate with each other without global clock, and obviously the do not need clock buffers ;D (And yes there are anecdotes of people telling them their design wouldn't work, but it does and again I already own one of their functioning chips) Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: abeaulieu on December 02, 2012, 04:37:05 AM Hence, this is why the framing of the information....seems a bit off. Be careful. If you point out inconsistencies and ambiguities in BFL's announcements Josh will start rageflaming you. Spoken from experience. Little I know about designing chips but wouldn't a real, and most effective Bitcoin chip be better done without a clock or clockless? Units waiting for Data could so automatically be suspended and resume work just in time when they are needed. Face-palm...... I cannot think of any useful digital logic design that is "clock-less" (suspend/resume is in-fact a type of "clock") As is the case for a number of manufacturers.... this is what happens when sales people speak to engineers... Sony also does it, you will find that the whole industry is ripe with it (using engineering terms incorrectly, that is.....) http://funnysalescartoons.com/photo/dilbert-product-knowledge (http://funnysalescartoons.com/photo/dilbert-product-knowledge) http://funnysalescartoons.com/photo/dilbert-as-a-sales-engineer-on?context=latest (http://funnysalescartoons.com/photo/dilbert-as-a-sales-engineer-on?context=latest) No need to insult me, this was a simple question. And not for you btw. I asked it because I have a multiprocessor chip at home which is in fact refereed to clockless and has the exact property I described, the GA144. Of course there is are oscillators to drive the processors but they communicate with each other without global clock, and obviously the do not need clock buffers ;D (And yes there are anecdotes of people telling them their design wouldn't work, but it does and again I already own one of their functioning chips) Oscillators are means to provide a clock. Most any digital calculation requires a clock because you need to know when the data is present and ready to be calculated. That's an interesting chip, what are you using it for? Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: creativex on December 02, 2012, 05:48:12 AM Whatever, you are a joke Elden. Just like Puerto Libre and CreativeX you have to make up "facts" to bash BFL. You are pathetic. Unlike Puerto Libre and CreativeX, I had some respect for you until it became clear that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and you're still pissed off BFL rained all over your parade last year. Hey welcome to the club Elden! Seems you're also off Josh's Christmas list, grats! Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: hardcore-fs on December 02, 2012, 06:36:38 AM Hence, this is why the framing of the information....seems a bit off. Be careful. If you point out inconsistencies and ambiguities in BFL's announcements Josh will start rageflaming you. Spoken from experience. Little I know about designing chips but wouldn't a real, and most effective Bitcoin chip be better done without a clock or clockless? Units waiting for Data could so automatically be suspended and resume work just in time when they are needed. Face-palm...... I cannot think of any useful digital logic design that is "clock-less" (suspend/resume is in-fact a type of "clock") As is the case for a number of manufacturers.... this is what happens when sales people speak to engineers... Sony also does it, you will find that the whole industry is ripe with it (using engineering terms incorrectly, that is.....) http://funnysalescartoons.com/photo/dilbert-product-knowledge (http://funnysalescartoons.com/photo/dilbert-product-knowledge) http://funnysalescartoons.com/photo/dilbert-as-a-sales-engineer-on?context=latest (http://funnysalescartoons.com/photo/dilbert-as-a-sales-engineer-on?context=latest) No need to insult me, this was a simple question. And not for you btw. I asked it because I have a multiprocessor chip at home which is in fact refereed to clockless and has the exact property I described, the GA144. Of course there is are oscillators to drive the processors but they communicate with each other without global clock, and obviously the do not need clock buffers ;D (And yes there are anecdotes of people telling them their design wouldn't work, but it does and again I already own one of their functioning chips) LOL...... man up. The previous post is in NO way an insult. Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: Inaba on December 02, 2012, 07:05:20 AM Get some education and help bud, not all of your current and future customers can be "pathological/liars". There is always a cause behind every situation. Find out what the commonalities are as a first step to a resolution. It can be anything from communication issues to simply a lack of a broad understanding of a series of issues. Fitting your current/former/future customers base into a labeled box of "liars" is an uneducated way of going about finding a resolution to these issues. A former customer can be won back if you pamper them. Though you don't write to them as if they are trash once you have issued a refund. If you consider them trash or a waste of resources, at the tip of a hat, then what does it say about your valuation of these individuals buying products from you? Stop with the "pathological liar" routine and start somewhere helpful. If there is an issue, find a way to correct it and resolve the issue. There's only a few of you who are either pathological liars, like Elden, CreativeX and yourself or there are those that have agendas, namely to besmirch BFL at every turn with false information. You don't seem to understand, we don't want customers like you. Ever. The effort vs reward ratio on people like you is disastrous to a company; You are the type of people that drag everything around you down because you've failed in one fashion or another and you want everyone else to be dragged to your level so that you don't feel so bad about yourselves. The thing is, it's only a few select people ... you'll notice how no one else posts the ridiculous information you clowns post, right? There's a reason for that - most people have a well developed sense of reality. They understand the need to check their facts before passing them along to others. You and those like you lack it, this is the "commonality" you are wondering about. You don't check facts; You just want something to be true so desperately that you convince yourself that they are true, so you post them as if these imaginary things you have floating around in your head are facts. What's truly frightening is the fact that you can be shown beyond a shadow of a doubt that what you're claiming is unquestionably false and you still maintain that it's true. This last bit with Elden is a nice example of that. Inaba: "Here is a link to a post of you stating X." Elden: "No I didn't state X." Inaba: "Are you denying that you posted that?" Elden: "No." Inaba: "..." It's bizarre, but it is what it is. But it's impossible to argue with someone so self deluded that they deny evidence that is right in front of them. You made poor choices and now you have to live with them. What's not understandable is why you feel the need to continually make things up and pass along false information, regardless of the reason behind it. If you are just truly so ignorant that you can't be bothered to check your facts before posting, then stop posting. If it's not case of ignorance, then it's pure malice or pettiness. In either case, if you stopped posting on this forum all together, the collective IQ of Bitcoin Talk would rise by several points. That is what your "contribution" to this community is - a sum negative. It sucks to be at the bottom, I'm sure, but that's where people like you are and you need to deal with it and not involve others in your pathetic shenanigans. Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: Syke on December 02, 2012, 07:15:53 AM Everything I say can be backed up with facts... Can you explain the facts behind these quotes? Quote from: BFL_Josh There was a flaw in the chip that needed to be addressed and it pushed the date out, plain and simple. There is a correction to be made: Chips are not and were not flawed. Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: PuertoLibre on December 02, 2012, 07:43:19 AM Everything I say can be backed up with facts... Can you explain the facts behind these quotes? Quote from: BFL_Josh There was a flaw in the chip that needed to be addressed and it pushed the date out, plain and simple. There is a correction to be made: Chips are not and were not flawed. Hence, this is why the framing of the information....seems a bit off. Be careful. If you point out inconsistencies and ambiguities in BFL's announcements Josh will start rageflaming you. Spoken from experience. "Algunos de los que son culpables tienden a defenderse, incluso cuando nadie los está acusando de nada." -- Old Spanish Proverb Tranlation: "Some who feel guilty of some matter will tend to defend themselves, even when no one is accusing them of anything." @ BFL Representative As you have pinned me and quite a few others (at an ever increasing rate) as having a pathology to lie, please place us on all on collective ignore. (Quickly!) This way you blood pressure returns to normal and you turn less green (unlike the Hulk) when responding to some "non-sense" from former or prospective customers. Or Waste more seconds of your life addressing anything and everything in an agitated and unreasonable tone. Rather choosing to unleash the utter might of your rage and psychoanalysis on every respondent. [Note: Keep in mind that you are not a qualified mental health professional and therefore are not qualified (no not even certified) to evaluate the mental condition or status of any individual.] ----------------------- Please, tap the ignore button. If you are convinced that nothing can be done, do what is right. (plus ignore any facts to the contrary) I still stand behind the idea of exellent customer service from each vendor. I do not think that customers (present, former or prospective] are somehow "trash" (my word) once a refund has been issued. Nor do I believe that the employees under Jody or your care are "wasting" their resources doing the job which they are intended to perform and fulfill (with a smile behind the keyboard or the phone). Last I checked, customers are not "resource leechers" (my word). They are a valuable part of your business. If your customer is irate, it is up to you, the employee to man up and earn your pay. If that keeps your blood pressure high or keeps you up at night...find a way out of that role or find a better job where your experience and mannerisms are better suited. etc etc etc... Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: Unacceptable on December 02, 2012, 10:54:26 AM I found out along time ago,that you can please most of the people (customers) most of the time & a few of the people (customers) none of the time.
Being a self-employed/buissness owner is an eye opener to human behaviour. When I run into those select few,I drop them like a hot potato.Those folks can never be pleased & will do nothing but complain & waste your time to no end. I have tried to reconcile with them,but it was utterly fruitless.Nothing I did,either free of labor fee's or parts made any difference.Once they get it in thier heads that you or the service you offer sucks,you will NEVER make them change thier minds...............EVER!!!! Just a personal experience I thought I would share ;) Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: PuertoLibre on December 02, 2012, 11:54:12 AM I found out along time ago,that you can please most of the people (customers) most of the time & a few of the people (customers) none of the time. I have dealt with those too.Being a self-employed/buissness owner is an eye opener to human behaviour. When I run into those select few,I drop them like a hot potato.Those folks can never be pleased & will do nothing but complain & waste your time to no end. I have tried to reconcile with them,but it was utterly fruitless.Nothing I did,either free of labor fee's or parts made any difference.Once they get it in thier heads that you or the service you offer sucks,you will NEVER make them change thier minds...............EVER!!!! Just a personal experience I thought I would share ;) The "trick" is not in that you can't satisfy them, but that you can promise them something exclusive at a future date. (discounts for bad service, or a bad item, out of stock etc) The real life (in your face) customers though, yeah I agree, you can't satisfy anyone once they have come to a conclusion about something or other. At which point, I agree, cut your loses and tell them off (very nicely). ------------------------- I don't expect any BFL rep to work miracles. I just ask they keep people interested in the customer service portion of the process. You know, without being unnecessarily flippant at every other opportunity. I am pretty sure, (because I have read actually read peoples comments) that people realize that a flippant rep doesn't give a damn about them as a customer. They (if like me) would quickly gather the impression that buying their product only keeps the flippant remarks behind closed doors. (well, until you request a refund) I evaluated BFL as my first choice, then I saw the rep above, and boy did that change my mind. I had to go with Avalon instead. The sum of all the bad parts made the choice alot easier. (Well, that, and the Avalon team had a self contained unit while the other two did not.) ------------------------ So it goes to show, that if you leave a bad impression in public, it does cost you in terms of customers and the cash they bring. I am not the first person to comment on this. Does that mean I won't buy BFL if Gen 2 comes around? Sure will, but that customer service better improve sharply, the delays should be addressed, the flow of information should increase (transparency), and the tired and angry reps should remain behind closed doors when they have a fit. Far from where I can see them and shake my head. Does BFL make good hardware? Sure, as long as it is within spec. Just like any of the other ASIC companies. (well...the ones that don't fail in some significant way) Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: yohan on December 02, 2012, 12:58:58 PM Any technological project is prone to delays and problems and every time I think out any project timescale I then multiple it by X3. Over my very long history in electronics that X3 number is usually about right. Putting that into simple terms the logistical and technological problems take twice as long to fix as the original timescale.
I have said before that competition is good and I think it is up to all the ASIC vendors to deliver and prove their products. I think we should leave them to just get on and prove themselves. Personally I think there are too many ASICs coming in the near future and many people won't get the return they think they will out of ASICs. It's a case of too many too soon and a slower drop in, smaller performance jump, would be much better for the health of Bitcoin. If I prove to be wrong then we will consider letting our Goliath technology into the market but we think it's way too much for now. Yohan Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: Cablez on December 02, 2012, 03:32:05 PM If I prove to be wrong then we will consider letting our Goliath technology into the market but we think it's way too much for now. Yohan Don't name drop if you aren't willing to share some gory details about what it is. I hate surprises. :P ;) (Tongue meet cheek) Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: yohan on December 02, 2012, 04:14:32 PM If I prove to be wrong then we will consider letting our Goliath technology into the market but we think it's way too much for now. Yohan Don't name drop if you aren't willing to share some gory details about what it is. I hate surprises. :P ;) (Tongue meet cheek) Surprise will be the name of the game. I said that before if we were going to release anything it would be ready to ship before we announced it. Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: MeSarah on December 02, 2012, 04:17:19 PM @ BFL Representative As you have pinned me and quite a few others (at an ever increasing rate) as having a pathology to lie, please place us on all on collective ignore. (Quickly!) @ PuertoLibre, if you know where the ignore button is why haven't you ignored the BFL representatives? Why can't you accept and act on your own advice? PuertoLibre, are you lying to your self about your own advice? This way you blood pressure returns to normal and you turn less green (unlike the Hulk) when responding to some "non-sense" from former or prospective customers. Or Waste more seconds of your life addressing anything and everything in an agitated and unreasonable tone. Rather choosing to unleash the utter might of your rage and psychoanalysis on every respondent. [Note: Keep in mind that you are not a qualified mental health professional and therefore are not qualified (no not even certified) to evaluate the mental condition or status of any individual.] @ PuertoLibre, are you a qualitfied medical perfessional that is capible of sensing at a distance a person's blood pressure without the use of a sphygmomanometer? So let me get this correct PuertoLibre. You complain that some one should use the ignore button but you wont do the same. You complain that some one is making a medical judgement and then you make a medical judgement. I think it's more than safe to call you a hypocrite PuertoLibre. PuertoLibre, why don't you act in a manor as you advocate others to do? “Whatever you do will be insignificant, but it is very important that you do it.” ― Mahatma Gandhi Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: PuertoLibre on December 02, 2012, 04:49:26 PM @ BFL Representative As you have pinned me and quite a few others (at an ever increasing rate) as having a pathology to lie, please place us on all on collective ignore. (Quickly!) @ PuertoLibre, if you know where the ignore button is why haven't you ignored the BFL representatives? Why can't you accept and act on your own advice? PuertoLibre, are you lying to your self about your own advice? I have no real reason to ignore anyone (yet). No one has proven themselves so utterly useless that a fast scrolling action can't fix. Unlike the rep, I don't have some kind of significant emotional reaction to what someone else writes. -------------------- As for the rest of your post, it's not worth addressing. See? How easy it is to do that? P.S. I used to be a moderator at another forum for several years. Keeping people on ignore is impractical and you learn how to deal without it. (buy a fast friction-less scroll wheel. (LOL) Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: Inaba on December 02, 2012, 05:53:04 PM Hypocrisy comes with pathological behavior, Mesarah. It's often the only way a pathological liar can reconcile their behavior and/or words in the face of incontrovertible evidence to the contrary.
Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: superfastkyle on December 02, 2012, 09:42:21 PM My only question is if you really are employed by BFL, why hasn't BFL fired you yet? Calling people liars when you should be taking the high road especially when you are representing a business. Or you are just another one who knows about their con which is why they don't really care what you say?
this could have been a good thread until you derailed it by feeding the trolls. maybe that's what you wanted to happen Hypocrisy comes with pathological behavior, Mesarah. It's often the only way a pathological liar can reconcile their behavior and/or words in the face of incontrovertible evidence to the contrary. Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: makomk on December 02, 2012, 09:44:19 PM I cannot think of any useful digital logic design that is "clock-less" (suspend/resume is in-fact a type of "clock") It's technically doable - it's called asyncronous logic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asynchronous_circuit), there are even a number of CPUs based around it including the GA144 that ElectricMucus has, it's just not commercially viable because it's so hard to design and debug. So in a way I'm actually kind of surprised BFL aren't using it ;)Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: gmaxwell on December 02, 2012, 10:53:03 PM It's technically doable - it's called asyncronous logic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asynchronous_circuit), there are even a number of CPUs based around it including the GA144 that ElectricMucus has, it's just not commercially viable because it's so hard to design and debug. So in a way I'm actually kind of surprised BFL aren't using it ;) There are a bunch of things which are async logic which aren't really marketed as such, e.g. octasic DSPs. For a miner the complicated valiation issues aren't really an issue, and wouldn't be surprised if someone could get a decent efficiency improvement by slicing sha256 into groups of 8 words and running them async across a span of 8 rounds (where they should naturally time back up, at least if the wiring in the round is totally regular). Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: firefop on December 06, 2012, 11:41:23 PM It's technically doable - it's called asyncronous logic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asynchronous_circuit), there are even a number of CPUs based around it including the GA144 that ElectricMucus has, it's just not commercially viable because it's so hard to design and debug. So in a way I'm actually kind of surprised BFL aren't using it ;) There are a bunch of things which are async logic which aren't really marketed as such, e.g. octasic DSPs. For a miner the complicated valiation issues aren't really an issue, and wouldn't be surprised if someone could get a decent efficiency improvement by slicing sha256 into groups of 8 words and running them async across a span of 8 rounds (where they should naturally time back up, at least if the wiring in the round is totally regular). I wouldn't say that too loudly =P I tried it in another thread and got shouted down and then locked into a debate over the advantages and disadvantage of "unrolling process" (their words not mine). Title: Re: Just what is a clock buffer anyway? Post by: mem on December 07, 2012, 02:02:27 AM has a history of just talking out his ass, as evidenced by the fact that he just makes stuff up as he goes along: If you can't deal with the facts, go ad hominem... Seems to be a familiar tactic from our favorite companies representative. You guys do realize all Inaba is here to do is troll and derail all negative discussion on BFL ? Hence why he loves the big long rants that have no content apart from "rar rar rar Im a massive douchebag respect me". |
