Just what is a clock buffer anyway?

[creativex]

Just because you didn't order from them doesn't mean you're unaffected by their delays. I ordered from their competition, so I most definitely care if/when BFL ships. This effects the entire crypto economy.

For myself, I don't hate BFL, I'd just prefer they hadn't been able to capture such a huge piece of the ASIC pie with their dishonest tactics of promising what they have no chance of delivering.

How does their delay effect "the entire crypto economy"? You should jump from joy at every bfl delay, so the delay from your vendor does not push you too far back behind that tenfold/whatever difficulty line. About that pie, so far there's a max. 300pcs batch at Avalon, there's a max. 1000pcs batch at bctfpga, and anyone else that wants a piece of the pie can only go to bfl. How can that be bfl's fault?

Did you intend these as serious questions? I'll treat them as such, despite the fact that a couple seem self evident. First, I *AM* personally pleased that BFL is spinning it's wheels, because as you say I benefit from their failures. It does not however benefit the crypto community to have a product that would obsolete GPUs and eventually FPGAs promised for October shipping be delayed until Q1 2013. How many have based their purchase decisions off this (mis)information. Looking back I simply cannot be convinced there was any chance whatsoever BFL could ship a working ASIC in October, but it certainly wasn't obvious in August.

BFL locked up pre-orders based on a fairy tale shipping date they had zero chance of achieving. This is the second time they've done this with a product launch. How much damage has been done to Avalon, BTCFPGA, and ASICMiner by this tactic? Pre-orders paid for in BTC 6 months ago? What's the real cost of a BFL Single SC to those miners?

$1299/$6/BTC = 216.5*$12.25 = $2652.13

Now that's a serious chunk of change for 60Gh, but it would've still been easily worth it if those early adopters had been the sole ASIC hashers working on 50BTC blocks. A "fuzzy" shipping date of 1/13 will make it difficult to imagine those early adopters being repaid for many months as ASICs come online from other vendors that didn't sell pre-orders so far in advance and come much closer to meeting their shipping schedules. This is the kind of stuff that lawyers salivate over.

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[SLok]

Just because you didn't order from them doesn't mean you're unaffected by their delays. I ordered from their competition, so I most definitely care if/when BFL ships. This effects the entire crypto economy.

For myself, I don't hate BFL, I'd just prefer they hadn't been able to capture such a huge piece of the ASIC pie with their dishonest tactics of promising what they have no chance of delivering.

How does their delay effect "the entire crypto economy"? You should jump from joy at every bfl delay, so the delay from your vendor does not push you too far back behind that tenfold/whatever difficulty line. About that pie, so far there's a max. 300pcs batch at Avalon, there's a max. 1000pcs batch at bctfpga, and anyone else that wants a piece of the pie can only go to bfl. How can that be bfl's fault?

Did you intend these as serious questions? I'll treat them as such, despite the fact that a couple seem self evident. First, I *AM* personally pleased that BFL is spinning it's wheels, because as you say I benefit from their failures. It does not however benefit the crypto community to have a product that would obsolete GPUs and eventually FPGAs promised for October shipping be delayed until Q1 2013.

Yes, I was serious about asking on your thoughts about this. I've marked the difference in the 2 answers, economy against community btw. GPU's made CPU mining obsolete, it's just progress happening. To me it looked more like a warning to not put massive amounts of money in gpu's, and I'm glad I did not.

How many have based their purchase decisions off this (mis)information. Looking back I simply cannot be convinced there was any chance whatsoever BFL could ship a working ASIC in October, but it certainly wasn't obvious in August.

I don't know how many, but it has been said before, only put money in you can afford to loose. To many people only saw it as  a chance to cash in quick without a single care for the crypto currency or -community. About those suggested production/delivery dates, you are absolutely right.

BFL locked up pre-orders based on a fairy tale shipping date they had zero chance of achieving. This is the second time they've done this with a product launch. How much damage has been done to Avalon, BTCFPGA, and ASICMiner by this tactic? Pre-orders paid for in BTC 6 months ago? What's the real cost of a BFL Single SC to those miners?

$1299/$6/BTC = 216.5*$12.25 = $2652.13

Now that's a serious chunk of change for 60Gh, but it would've still been easily worth it if those early adopters had been the sole ASIC hashers working on 50BTC blocks. A "fuzzy" shipping date of 1/13 will make it difficult to imagine those early adopters being repaid for many months as ASICs come online from other vendors that didn't sell pre-orders so far in advance and come much closer to meeting their shipping schedules. This is the kind of stuff that lawyers salivate over.

No one paid $2652 for btc for a single, but the equivalent of $1299. Bitpay gave bfl $ for btc, so $1299 is what bfl got. If currencies going up/down would have to be compensated, would you pay up if your earlier payed btc's value would have went to $2? I don't know how Avalon and btcfpga suffered, they have more orders than they can fill atm, hence the second batches. "BFL locked up pre-orders based on a fairy tale shipping date they had zero chance of achieving."  -Agreed about them fairytale dates and knowing before they would not happen, unless they had last minute major fuck-ups with those asics, but they deny or they won't tell. Locked up pre-orders/money, no, at any moment people can, and always could, step out.

[creativex]

You seem to discount BFL's role in this at nearly every turn and as this conversation is OT anyway I'm going to let it go, but will happily continue discussing it in an appropriate existing thread. Does BFL deserve a scammer tag...for instance.

[SLok]

You seem to discount BFL's role in this at nearly every turn and as this conversation is OT anyway I'm going to let it go, but will happily continue discussing it in an appropriate existing thread. Does BFL deserve a scammer tag...for instance.

Blame bfl for not delivering on time, while the whole gpu/fpga community is profiting from that, and if they will deliver, blame them for killing that community of gpu/fpga miners.
It's indeed mostly a bunch of sour guys here, staring at that bitcoin mining calculator page, thinking of what could have been. Good luck with the scammer thread.

[Inaba]

BFL locked up pre-orders based on a fairy tale shipping date they had zero chance of achieving. This is the second time they've done this with a product launch. How much damage has been done to Avalon, BTCFPGA, and ASICMiner by this tactic? Pre-orders paid for in BTC 6 months ago? What's the real cost of a BFL Single SC to those miners?

Locked up pre-orders?  Really?  Can you point me to a single person who hasn't gotten a refund that has asked for it?  No?  Ok, then you lied again. Quite the habit with you.

[creativex]

BFL locked up pre-orders based on a fairy tale shipping date they had zero chance of achieving. This is the second time they've done this with a product launch. How much damage has been done to Avalon, BTCFPGA, and ASICMiner by this tactic? Pre-orders paid for in BTC 6 months ago? What's the real cost of a BFL Single SC to those miners?

Locked up pre-orders?  Really?  Can you point me to a single person who hasn't gotten a refund that has asked for it?  No?  Ok, then you lied again. Quite the habit with you.

lol yer a hoot.

Why must you always play dumb. You know as well as I do those guys are trapped. If they cancel their orders and request a refund then what? Back of the bus with the competition? Their options suck, because they trusted you when you said it'd be different this time, but it's not different this time is it Josh? Same fairy tale shipping dates pushed back a couple weeks at a time. Keep them hooked as long as possible because their refund option becomes less and less appealing over time. Oh but it's not BFL's fault, they're acting with integrity(obviously) and prowess, it's just that they're among the least lucky companies in the history of business. Please.

[Inaba]

Yeah, how's that "week after Thanksgiving" or was it 1st week of December shipping date (It was kind of fuzzy from the start) from your vendor working out?  Got your ASIC yet?

[creativex]

Nope, but you knew that. Worked about as well as FIFTH WEEK OF NOVEMBER worked for your customers. I only ordered in mid October however. Additionally since bASIC01 is SO much cheaper per Gh(45.8% less) than your company's overpriced products I'm good thanks. Now if you guys could just drop the ball ONE more time...CHA-CHING! You can do it Josh!

[meowmeowbrowncow]

Nope, but you knew that. Worked about as well as FIFTH WEEK OF NOVEMBER worked for your customers. I only ordered in mid October however. Additionally since bASIC01 is SO much cheaper per Gh(45.8% less) than your company's overpriced products I'm good thanks. Now if you guys could just drop the ball ONE more time...CHA-CHING! You can do it Josh!

lolz

[Inaba]

Yeah, and BFL will still be shipping before bASIC.  As for cheaper per G/h, good luck with that, but you already knew that BFL would match competitive offerings.  Enjoy your 200w piece o' junk that is obsolete before it even ships!  Oh, tell me again how much power or even what kind of power connector bASIC is going to be using?  Do you get a PSU with your unit? No?  You mean you have to BUY a PSU, cables, etc...?  Really?  So I guess that $1069.00 isn't really the REAL cost of running a bASIC is it?  Yay for hidden costs!  At least BFL is up front and honest about the cost of a unit.

[creativex]

Yeah, and BFL will still be shipping before bASIC.  As for cheaper per G/h, good luck with that, but you already knew that BFL would match competitive offerings.  Enjoy your 200w piece o' junk that is obsolete before it even ships!  Oh, tell me again how much power or even what kind of power connector bASIC is going to be using?  Do you get a PSU with your unit? No?  You mean you have to BUY a PSU, cables, etc...?  Really?  So I guess that $1069.00 isn't really the REAL cost of running a bASIC is it?  Yay for hidden costs!  At least BFL is up front and honest about the cost of a unit.

I hope for the sake of BFL customers that turns out to be true...unlike nearly everything else you've said with regard to BFL shipping dates.

Since when is BFL up front or honest about anything? If you guys had told everyone in September that October shipping was a fairy tale, and the reality was a "fuzzy" hopefully maybe January shipping date, how many would've cancelled then? Now that's some HUGE hidden cost. I have a dozen PSUs on hand thanks, not worried about it, but I appreciate your concern. Perhaps your concern would be better utilized getting your own very late product out the door? Oh that's right you said January all along...cept when you didn't.

[abeaulieu]

Yeah, and BFL will still be shipping before bASIC.  As for cheaper per G/h, good luck with that, but you already knew that BFL would match competitive offerings.  Enjoy your 200w piece o' junk that is obsolete before it even ships!  Oh, tell me again how much power or even what kind of power connector bASIC is going to be using?  Do you get a PSU with your unit? No?  You mean you have to BUY a PSU, cables, etc...?  Really?  So I guess that $1069.00 isn't really the REAL cost of running a bASIC is it?  Yay for hidden costs!  At least BFL is up front and honest about the cost of a unit.

Quoted for emphasis. Hopefully BFL/Inaba can be sure to fulfill this promise then.

[PuertoLibre]

No one paid $2652 for btc for a single, but the equivalent of $1299. Bitpay gave bfl $ for btc, so $1299 is what bfl got. If currencies going up/down would have to be compensated, would you pay up if your earlier payed btc's value would have went to $2? I don't know how Avalon and btcfpga suffered, they have more orders than they can fill atm, hence the second batches.

On the part of Avalon this is false. They only took in 300 and there is currently no second batch.

They took in only 300 to make sure (they said) they could deliver in a shorter time frame than other vendors.

With BTCFPGA, they may start a second batch as their initial batch is 30% (or thereabouts) not filled with paying customers.

BTCFPGA is not all that different than BFL in their order sizes.

"BFL locked up pre-orders based on a fairy tale shipping date they had zero chance of achieving."  -Agreed about them fairytale dates and knowing before they would not happen, unless they had last minute major fuck-ups with those asics, but they deny or they won't tell. Locked up pre-orders/money, no, at any moment people can, and always could, step out.

I think the warning sign is when employees start to bail from the company.

At that point I would worry that the whole thing will fall apart.

[Jack1Rip1BurnIt]

I wasn't around when BFL first started advertising their FPGA single, so I've got a question that I'm sure someone in here knows the answer to.

How long did it take for the first Singles to ever start arriving to customers after their initial release date was supposed to happen? 3 months? 6 months?

[PuertoLibre]

BFL locked up pre-orders based on a fairy tale shipping date they had zero chance of achieving. This is the second time they've done this with a product launch. How much damage has been done to Avalon, BTCFPGA, and ASICMiner by this tactic? Pre-orders paid for in BTC 6 months ago? What's the real cost of a BFL Single SC to those miners?

Locked up pre-orders?  Really?  Can you point me to a single person who hasn't gotten a refund that has asked for it?  No?  Ok, then you lied again. Quite the habit with you.

lol yer a hoot.

Why must you always play dumb. You know as well as I do those guys are trapped. If they cancel their orders and request a refund then what? Back of the bus with the competition? Their options suck, because they trusted you when you said it'd be different this time, but it's not different this time is it Josh? Same fairy tale shipping dates pushed back a couple weeks at a time. Keep them hooked as long as possible because their refund option becomes less and less appealing over time. Oh but it's not BFL's fault, they're acting with integrity(obviously) and prowess, it's just that they're among the least lucky companies in the history of business. Please.

Aye, Plan B is as bad as Plan Z.

Well unless your second option ships before BFL. That would be the ultimate act of humiliation for that company.

[PuertoLibre]

Nope, but you knew that. Worked about as well as FIFTH WEEK OF NOVEMBER worked for your customers. I only ordered in mid October however. Additionally since bASIC01 is SO much cheaper per Gh(45.8% less) than your company's overpriced products I'm good thanks. Now if you guys could just drop the ball ONE more time...CHA-CHING! You can do it Josh!

The facts hurt, huh?

Edit, by the way, they already did.

The new date for reciept of BFL ASIC (not shipping out to customers, mind you) has now been revised from Dec 11 to later in the month.

[Bogart]

I wasn't around when BFL first started advertising their FPGA single, so I've got a question that I'm sure someone in here knows the answer to.

How long did it take for the first Singles to ever start arriving to customers after their initial release date was supposed to happen? 3 months? 6 months?

I think it was remarkably similar to the same timeline a year ago.  They were supposed to ship October-ish in 2011, but actually shipped in March of 2012.

Furthermore, backlog of orders was only recently caught up on now in November 2012:

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/41-fpga-orders-all-shipped.html

[PuertoLibre]

Yeah, and BFL will still be shipping before bASIC.  As for cheaper per G/h, good luck with that, but you already knew that BFL would match competitive offerings.  Enjoy your 200w piece o' junk that is obsolete before it even ships!  Oh, tell me again how much power or even what kind of power connector bASIC is going to be using?  Do you get a PSU with your unit? No?  You mean you have to BUY a PSU, cables, etc...?  Really?  So I guess that $1069.00 isn't really the REAL cost of running a bASIC is it?  Yay for hidden costs!  At least BFL is up front and honest about the cost of a unit.

I hope for the sake of BFL customers that turns out to be true...unlike nearly everything else you've said with regard to BFL shipping dates.

Since when is BFL up front or honest about anything? If you guys had told everyone in September that October shipping was a fairy tale, and the reality was a "fuzzy" hopefully maybe January shipping date, how many would've cancelled then? Now that's some HUGE hidden cost. I have a dozen PSUs on hand thanks, not worried about it, but I appreciate your concern.

Actually, most GPU miner would. So the argument falls flat on it's face for those types of customers.

Perhaps your concern would be better utilized getting your own very late product out the door? Oh that's right you said January all along...cept when you didn't.

First they said they would put their shipping dates first rather than compete with the new hash rate for the bASIC device (60Gh/s Vs 72Gh/s).

Then promptly, they released information that they would not receive their first batch until Mid December. Then revised the revision again to make it sometime in January. (A full 30 day delay)

Now we have a BFL representative that says their chips were not ready due to the adding of clock buffers. Recently implemented to reduce noise on the chip as well as aid in the overclocking of the chip.

Following on the heels of an announcement that they will be revising their chips packaging to include metal rather than plastic components.

---------------------------

What does this spell out to you?

It spells out to me that shipping is not their first priority.
It spells out to me that revising their hardware for competitive sake (at the cost of time) is their first priority. Counter-intuitive to what the two BFL representatives stated not more than a few days ago.

Hence, this is why the framing of the information....seems a bit off.

If someone were polite enough to ask a BFL representative if they were indeed changing their chip to a metal packaging on their FIRST revision, then that would clearly indicate their chip is still being revised and that even the January date is an optimistic sign.

Later on, if this speculation is spot on, they will release information that thier chip is actually not 60Gh/s but something higher. (Probably at the cost of more electrical juice, a beefier power adapter and a few months time.)

Keep in mind, if they are having a hard time sourcing High AMP wall adapters...I can only imagine how much harder it will be if this speculation is spot on.

[eldentyrell]

Elden as to his BS about how BFL isn't using a full custom ASIC

I never said that.

Are you a pathological liar or something?

Not at all; are you?  Because this is certainly a lie:

You proceeded to explain that what BFL was describing was a Standard-cell ASIC and/or synthesis-flow ASIC.

If this were true you would have quoted it.

By the way, BFL doesn't use the phrase "full custom" to mean the same thing it means in the industry.

Are you denying you wrote this?

Not at all.

I called you out on ambiguous and misleading terminology and you're trying to somehow construe that as a prediction about a product I've never seen.

[eldentyrell]

I think the warning sign is when employees start to bail from the company.

At that point I would worry that the whole thing will fall apart.

Unfortunately (and quite strangely) BFL keeps the real names of their employees secret, so I doubt we would find out about it until long afterward.

Sonny, his father, and Nasser were identified only by searching public records, and their press release weirdly uses initials instead of surnames.