Bitcoin Forum

Greetings My Fellow Bitcointalk Members.Following post is relatively long, a rough estimate of 5-10 minutes are obligatory to continue.Of course,for the love of this forum,that shouldn't be of great importance.

Who Am I ?
I'm a legendary member following the forum since early 2011.Not been posting much but self-aware with the latest happening in the community .

Why this post ?
Recent drama caused by the Default trust list issues had me off the table to contribute to something which I dare to not see its destruction.In simple words, Default Trust is used destructively giving it a centralized paradigm shift .

What's the fuss about ?

Let's begin : {this is going to be long but worth your read,feedback's are always encouraged but we need more actions take}

Escrow.Ms has been kicked out of Default Trust resulting Blazed to become DT 1 and after a few illiterate mind's suggestions ,a couple of random foreigner's {I personally never heard of them before} were added to the DT-2 by Blazed.

@Blazed : You were a sensible guy.An audacious trader,smartness surrounds your ethics.Why this decision?

So the random foreigners I'm referring to are Mexxer-2{&}Lutpin.I still remember discussing Trust List with Dogie and we never expected this could arise as an exception or flaw in his model.By contrast, I personally haven't noticed any significant reasons for both of them to be on the Trust List.

Reasons {}
1}None of them have a history of trades in this forum.{both Mexxer-2 & Lutpin}
2}The feedback given by Mexxer-2 to stack members to his trust list is hilarious. {see below,I shall be grateful if someone quotes the reply to display images.}

Mexxer-2's reason to add another random foreigner WhyWeFight to his trust list.
https://i.imgur.com/Uxvwq2e.png

Apparently,the HateLeague is a new entourage of Default Trust Members who don't have a possible track of contributions to the bitcoin network nor successful trades neither a substantial amount of activities to be on the list.Seriously,is adding members to DT taken for granted ? @Blazed -> It's your fault mate.

Mexxer-2's second addition to his trust Network {his possible alternative} Lutpin {this is a super decisive}
https://i.imgur.com/YGa0LXK.png

Has anyone opened the referenced link ? To tell you,it takes you to CryptoGames home page {a gambling portal}.Just wow.3 BTC loan from a gambling portal seems very reputable ,right ? No track of the loan,No exact proofs,just because the DT has to bring someone in Power {his own alt} Mexxer-2 gives him a trust.Knowing trust is not moderated I agree but people ,especially Veterans like me are not too imbecile to stay silent of the fact that its misused.Moreover,if the loan is taken offsite this forum,why reward the trust here ?

To summarize {} Blazed adds Mexxer-2 to trust list and he instantly adds up his team under him without any reasonable reasons.

The amount of threads of misusing DT power created after Mexxer-2  are quite an example why he or his Brain Child Lutpin should not be granted the privileges.Accurately ,4-5 threads are created against Lutpin using his powers.It was never before ? I would agree if 1 or 2 members think his feedback's are not deserved but the most of them think he is misusing his powers {So Do I}.

And now,they are creating this fancy HateLeague wherein they will tag users for anything which doesn't obey their unsolicited  facts.I can totally see where it is going,first you get added to the DT ,then you add your alts to it including a few members those suck up to you and then you form an army.

Selling of accounts or goods or recently GiftCards should be a matter of choice to the members.Even the companies who manufacture them are aware about it and there are numerous videos,blogs,forums open advertising the hacks and the companies don't seem to care much,why should you ? How does it affect the rationalism in the forum? Person A has a gift card,he want's to trade it for Bitcoins with Person B,what's your issues ? He is supporting bitcoins probably buys them and you don't have to go all FBI on them.The problem starts when the goods promised are not sold or turn out to be fake,this can qualify for a negative feedback.

I still remember back in the day when people used to post requests to sell guns for bitcoins and they had buyers.Now,this was illegal but again it serves the entire point of decentralization ? No DT has issues with them back then? Why now?

To all members who are negatively tagged undesirably -> Don't bother the feedback from these clowns.They are simply bored of their less interesting real lives and being in the DT is only achievement they had so let them live with it.Keep doing what you guys like if it doesn't promote scam. Sooner or later,this entire DT thing will be a joke and I won't be surprised if other forum takes over where people are actually free of such trust issues from undeserved candidates.

@Blazed-> If all this makes sense to you,please re-consider your choices.

@VOD @Shoerna Only both of them are totally deserving DT members after OGNASTY and I would like to hear your views on this.  

Stop hiding behind a newbie account and i will take you serious.

I am detecting some butthurt, please read post #2  here (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=583076.0)

Guns were sold on this forum? Are you kidding or is this for real? Surely this forum is doomed if people can sell guns/drugs here.

You could have posted this with your real account but I guess you too were targeted for selling gift cards. I too sell them and don't mind proving that I earned them but I wouldn't support the sale of illegal gift cards just because I want to sell gift cards. Selling illegal things here is a way of scamming and just like users who promote ponzis were given a negative trust, users who are selling illegal cards too should be negated and there's no justification one can give except that it's a way of earning money so I can do anything to earn it (probably RIP off websites, owners of credit cards and others).


This is the worse thing about this forum when users start defending illegal things and say since it has happened in the past, it should continue to happen in future.

I'm not related to selling or buying goods either his forum or any other online entity.The only reason I'm posting this from a newbie account is because I'm at work on site in other country and I don't think it is a good idea to login with my password on the public computer.What if I tell you I belong to the DT list with much more rep than your light green fading shade ? I can't believe you literally made that thread.You're not a celebrity here and you should do your Internet Cop business over 100 other forums if you can but guess what ? They don't have a DT list there.

If you dont agree with my opinion i am fine with it. I am not impressed if you are on DT or not. I dont care about my position in the trust system. I am free to leave feedback that reflects my opinion. I leave a reference for the -ve i do so people can check why i left it and decide. I guess, if you are on DT, you should actually know how it works. You are welcome to deal with the threads popping up in scam accusations because people bought cards that were bought with fraud money, lost their money in ponzis, have to deal with defaulted loans, bought cracked accounts that no longer working and/or ended up with non working keys.

I guess you wont refund em, eh?

I am fairly certain that I know who the OP is and I don't think it is productive to make ad hominem attacks against the OP, as I would argue that he is probably one of the most trusted people around.

I would say that I agree that Mexxer-2 and Lutpin are strange choices for being in the Default Trust network. I would also say there is a high chance they are the same person.

I somewhat get the feeling that some people are trying to make a name for themselves as being a scam buster. They are doing this by stretching the definition of a scammer and leaving negative trust for people who probably do not have the drive nor motivation to defend their name/reputation, even though what they are accused of doing, even if true, is really not scamming.

I would note that a good number of the "Mexxer-2 and Lutpin" threads have resulted in no additional negative ratings being added to the accounts of those complaining, and in a decent number of instances the ratings have been removed. On the other hand, it was fairly rare that a rating that I left was inappropriate, and as a result very few ratings needed to be removed that I left and many of the "QS" threads resulted in additional people looking at the evidence and leaving additional ratings on those complaining.

I will take a look a closer look into both of them and see if they are abusing DT2. Mexxer-2 and lutpin have been helping the community with threads outing spammers and alt accounts etc... When you are DT1 adding people to your list has nothing to do with trades. The goal is to add users whose feedback and efforts help the community. Anyways, I will look into this and reply back!
 

I would also agree that Lutpin and Mexxer-2 are odd as part of the DT network.
I mean, hey yeah they fix spam, but the trust network is for trades and that sort of thing..
Pretty much everyone can tell between an actual reply and spam but the trust is there for people to know
that SOMEONE can be a TRUSTED

As much as I think QS should probably opt out of any discussion about default trust (and escrow), I agree with him here.  I see Mexxer-2 being very active in the forum and doing a lot of good, but I haven't seen a trade history and his track record is not that long.  Lutpin I definitely see as an odd choice and some of the feedback I've seen from him is like Vod on steroids.  Frankly given their limited track record and all of these other questions, you really need to reevaluate what you think "default trust" is.  Because I don't necessarily trust either one of them, and definitely much less so than other members like BAC, Blazed, etc. who've proven more or less that they can be trusted.  But that's just my opinion on the matter and it's worth exactly what you paid for it. 

Whew this is gonna take some time.
In simple words you would like to see DT centralized in the hands of a few individuals, which you had no idea about once.
Of course, bitcointalk doesn't need anyone to tag the ponzis, scams and shady stuff that is on the verge of being a scam. The only type of members active with with their rating and account as a whole.
1) Trades, or numbers of them is not a requirement for being added to DT. Nothing is, escrow.ms added bunch of people on his trust list, DeadTerra too, just because they had a few early trades with them, with escrow.ms adding some for trading with less than $10. In addition, I have managed a campaign worth 5 BTC in total, with Lutpin managing one that has paid out in total of 21 BTC.
2) First off, members(in DT) have been giving each other feedbacks for accurately uncovering scams since trust system was made. Second he was on my trust list even before I was added to the trust list, get an archive of the trust.xz file and see for yourself. And no, HateLeague is a thing, I just like to be funny , if you have a problem with it, I don't know whats wrong with your sense of humor mate.
Also since when is my(DT 2) additions to the trust list becoming a problem?
Actually it consists of james.lent, whywefight, [from what I see in the replies here, QS probably doesn't want to be a part of it] , shorena, possibly EcuaMobi and Lutpin. Two of which you can see are non-DT individuals.
First off what is wrong with people suspecting me to be an alt of Lutpin, this was funny once but seriously.Second, its a 3 BTC loan. And yep I met him on Crypto-games, and since it has been a stream of non-forum based loans , thought it was the best reference link.
Also, where are you getting your facts from, both of our feedbacks were from before any of us were in DT. It was supposed to be older but, we had a fight once(which I don't consider to be any of your business) because of which we both removed our feedbacks and stopped communications, and later made up and reinstated the feedback. I'm not good with details, Lutpin may give you guys the exact transactions of the loans and the repayments but I don't expect him to.
Do you want me to show examples of people handing out trust just because they have known each other for a long time or because they have met each other in the real world?
My adding to anyone doesn't have any effect on the trust system. As dogie once said "DT 3 is same as DT 10" or something similar, nobody has their depth level at 3, and you're gonna be seeing a lot of other shit than my additions if you do
There has been a ton of threads on QS abusing his powers, on shorena and vod too. Are you going to count every one of the trolls? Also shove your insults("Brain child") down your own throat.
Gotta admit it, sounds pretty cool when you put it that way. But just because you don't see the discussions happening behind the scenes, doesn't mean we are handing out trust because one of the team member has reported someone for fun.
So was this all drama about me and other members beg tagging money-launderers? You know you could've posted your opinion on EcuaMobi's thread, and who knows you might've even convinced everyone that neg-tagging for that reason is not appropriate.
Ironically, Vod(might have been out of humor) once said "I'd like to see you being added to DT" and shorena had me on his trust list until some time ago, he is currently revising his trust list but from what he has said I will be readded as soon as he finishes revising it(might not do it, considering I'm on DT now). Another ironical fact, OgNasty might've added me to his trust list to add more weight to the tags I give to his impersonators.

First off, don't even tell me this "backstabbing" is because of the reason I think you're sore about. Also I'd like to see your proof for me being an alt of Lutpin
Well you just had a bigger league that you could fall back onto  :P
I don't remember any such thing with my ratings , although yes I did remove rating for leowonderful as he closed his "Joke ponzi" ASAP after I gave him a neg. And from the PM he sent me, I just felt bad for him

I suggested both (among others) Lutpin and mexxer-2 to Blazed, as the process was it was just a suggestion and it turned out that Blzaed agreed with me. Both do a good job at handling scammers and finding their alt accounts. DT rating have value beyond mere trade feedback. The ratings are commonly used to issue warnings about probable scams.

Why their "foreignness" is important to you is beyond me, a great deal of people here including me are not from the united states (I assume thats the "non foreign" country here).

Yes, the "hategroup" seems childish and it might be time to bury that joke, but I dont think either of them leaves ratings without a well thought out reason.

Wrong. The trust network is for people who's ratings you trust (trades or not). I'll gladly keep mexxer-2 and Lutpin in my trust list.

I did say that in my post as well..

I do trust Mexxer to some extent, but idk, if you wanna base your trust on finding spam then that's your choice.
I just find it odd, as I've said previously

I don't want to brag but have a look at my trust page first. As for me finding spam, others are way better at it than me, and I've never forced you to trust my feedbacks because of my report I do in the background, you always have the option to exclude me from your trust list

Anyone can make an account and start busting scammers and spammers, and it looks like a lot more people are doing it now to be added to the default trust list.

@whywefight I've always wanted to say this. Why not admit to everyone how you were fine with letting your bff Sawzall bump your thread with his alts whenever your thread got buried? (Account selling one)

I have the screenshots from when I logged on to his Skype.

Mitchell,finally.Do you know you deserve a negative feedback from these noobs as well ? What if I tell you,couple of coins you own or have accumulated through this forum were "stolen" or more specifically are not manufactured within "particular" country's legal regiments ? I'm sure you won't show the interests in bringing up the discussions.If you're still wondering what I'm talking about,{} the coins you own {not all but few of them} ARE ILLEGALLY manufactured without paying Government taxes and utilizing the Natural Resources of the country thereby leading to mineral crisis.I wonder how this is never been brought up as a issue in the forum.ITS OKAY forget it.

Let's just say,how are you contributing to bitcoins in general ? Do you run a Full Node? Know what a hard fork is ? Ever set up a mining Rig ? Contributed to the network on GitHub? Your Spam filtering doesn't help the network anyway.Its useless.You barely have a single post in Bitcoin Discussion or Technical Discussions threads.I wonder how are you even allowed to be on the DT. There are numerous forums where regular scams take place,why don't you try your gimmicks there ? If your real intention is to stop spam ,then it must server a greater purpose and not only limit to this forum.

If I ever made a rule I'd allow only Bitcoin Experts to be on the Trust Lists .Not some jobless noobs who are here to waste time.

I honestly respect your opinions Shorena.You are probably one of those guys I would want this noobs to take lessons from.
Finding Alt's,Stopping scams were done before on this forum even before these clowns were added to the DT.I'm not against the fact they stop scams but thye group attack the victim.

Let's say ,if you see an account negative tagged by VOD for a loan without collateral ,would you put a negative on his again? No,because it doesn't make sense to.All I'm saying is,they're group attacking the victims which is bullying and absolutely a trust abuse.Should be stopped.

I see the point, but multiple ratings by different people also have their good side. QS's removal from DT caused several scammers to return according to QS. Before they[1] had been on DT they would need to write me, EcuaMobi and possible others from DT I dont know about. I would need to take the extra time to double check what they found to leave a rating. Now that they can do this all by themselves and they have quickly learned that being on DT means mostly getting bothered by people that disagree with your ratings. They are in my experience reasonable people despite the jokes and all that, willing to discuss the ratings they left and remove or change them. I think they still need some time to adapt to the new situation, but I dont think this thread is how you get them to change and it shouldnt be. Being on DT also means to stand up for what you think is right and not buckle down at the first signs for criticism.

[1] I will use they to refer to mexxer-2 & lutpin even though they are two distinct individuals and have their own style

The thing with swazall is a still ongoing thing and yes i let it happen for a reason. Most simply to get as many accounts linked together as possible. Due the information you get from the log, or not, you might have also noticed i bought an account from him. What you dont know i reported my self to grue after i got the feeling the acc was hacked, feel free to ask grue about it. besides the fact, i know he sells faked docs (i reported that thread) he is doing the acc gens (i reported those too) and i am still on him to link accounts together. well it seems that is spoiled now, doesnt matter.

people might think i am wild -veing but actually i report threads in bulk, feel free to ask lauda about it. as one of my methods had some mistakes i am trying to get more solid proof to get those i report removed.

If you want to go on with stuff i did that might fit into the schema, yes i also got some vouch copys. For a cracked acc, i used it to report it on the site it belongs to, some "methods" just to see what those sellers are dealing. In addition it is well known that i have several sockpuppets i use to get information from sellers they wont give me if i would use my main acc, you might like to ask hilariousandco.

As you see the actions i do are not hidden, there are several people informed about what and how i do it, just for the case someone like you comes around.

okay well you should know he was the one who used luckypyrate and bigjon to attempt a scam.
he's got many accounts somehow

i am aware of that fact. sometimes you need to lay down with your enemies to get what you want. this might not be the best way but i promised people who i talked to about it to get solid proofs for future reports

Hey Miyagi, fuck you, you xenophobic 'foreign' cunt.


I don't give a flying fuck who you think you are, but the rest of us know what you are.

Wanker.

Well... thanks. Preetty QS of me to say this I guess, but I think I know this individual from the "patronizing shorena" and the weird English part

Seconded.If your rating needs to be removed every alternate day then it only shows the low accuracy and how readily you leave a rating.

Regardless of the alt's, it looks like Blazed is getting pampered a lot.

Well if you're talking about me, link me to 5 feedbacks(I expect at least one rating to be a mistake, I'm human after all) that I wrongfully appeared to have given , that I later removed under community pressure.

Again, if you're talking about me, I've sent Blazed 3 PMs so far. 1st, to remove his rating for "Busting spam" as many were questioning that I did it solely for gaining feedbacks. 2nd, a recommendation of devthedev and Cyrus to the DT. 3rd, recently when he asked me to reply in this thread.

I agree 100%, if you make your ratings without anything solid behind them, you will find yourself removing them ever so often, In a few days we will see him and luptin removing another one of their feedback from anonymous22's page, he already sent his method to someone trusted for review

I don't know why Blazed added them though, they were good as Spam busters and just that, but now they are focusing their efforts at scam busting which is clearly not their field, I don't know why Blazed considers Spam busters to be good scam busters

I also agree on the point that they (the hateleague) are just trying to make a name for themselves, I also agree that since lately some of their ratings need review, blazed probably needs to manually review these ratings

Mexxer, i trust you and all that ,will also go first with you for some amount of money regardless of DT.But i don't think this is going in a good direction.

It's no joke & i cant agree to the (newbie)harassing,I cant bud, sorry.

EDIT: I also think Blazed is simply risking his reputation or losing his respect in this drama.

Below are all users that have gotten a negative or positive ratings from mexxer-2. I skipped some neutral ratings. They are sorted by reason why the negative positive was left.

- I am not sure about the ratings regarding gift cards. To be fair there is an open discussion about these.

- I disagree with the positive ratings for "HateLeague" members at least with the current wording. I think the wording should be more clear and the name of the group removed. I wouldnt lose my mind over it though.

- I agree with all other ratings.

Will post something similar for lutpin later, last minute changes will be ignored (I already have the site cached):

mexxer-2:

Ratings against ponzis:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=485410
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=338743
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=761175
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=746776
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=628762
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=526538
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=770584
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=765367
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=180041
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=442263
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=665664
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=359012
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=759926
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=759244
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=763888
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=438624
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=520824
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=764587
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=235385
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=773568
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=773547
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=382466
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=774197
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=768930
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=774195
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=458329
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=776981
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=363314
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=394665
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=394665
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=776358
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=771760
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=751826
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=718228
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=778856
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=779904
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=733841
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=780734
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=560713
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=776454
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=778718
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=718657
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=756572


Reinforced an old rating:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=184564

Newbie asking for loan:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=706787
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=774216
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=777906
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=369024
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=458329
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=772185


Newbie, currency exchange, reversable currency, warning issued:


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=774654


Warned and possibly prevented a currency exchange scam:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=507131

MSDN keys:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=421191

Rating based on a thread in scam accusation or clear scam:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=202724
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=527416
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=704654 (missing ref link)
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=534828
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=357282
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=688243
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=138342

Rating based on suspicous bought account:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=370406

Positive ratings for "HateLeague" members:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=396480
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=289686

Gift cards:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=705643
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=248833
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=529842
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=772756

Impersonator:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=781042
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=159338

I  have a problem with those

anybody could do that,give me one day's time and i will dig 5 year old ponzi thread and tag the OP.The question the abuse.

I agree they might be good,helping etc etc... but their opinions ,judgments should not be forced upon anyone and hence they should be UNTRUSTED.

I agree with this and I would add that what you said is even more true in this bct culture that apparently breeds long term scammers.  Ones that cultivate trust before scamming.  If you can earn trust just by tagging scammers, that's the absolute easiest way of doing it.  Should I trust someone just because he accurately does this?  People still trust QS so I suppose it's to be expected around these parts but it's dumb practice.

I see, so you didnt even bother to check the ratings.


"Arguments" like these are the precise reason I did the above and will do more similar work later for lutpins ratings. What abuse? Dont use empty words, make a reference to something you consider abusive.


If good and helpful are no reason to trust their ratings I dont know what else you want.


No one is asking you to trust them. I dont know whether I would trust either of them with 1 BTC, the question never occured and probably never will, their ratings a useful though.

The long con argument is a killer argument, this is always possible. What makes you think that I dont just build my reputation? This is a risk we always have to take or never trust anyone.

@shorena the abuse is using their DT2 power to force people to do things to get the ratings removed

Logic not judgment.

IMO's

Alright , you've got me in a loop. So while you're saying, I may be trust abusing by negging someone clearly suspicious, I also can't remove that rating if my suspicion was proved false by a solid proof and a confirmation from a DT 1 member, and if the latter happens I should be removed from DT.
Also remember how many times the existing(been in DT for at least) DT "scam busters" have gulped down their suspicion and removed the neg, only after a community-wide request? Most of which generally gets ignored? I am offering the individual a chance to prove my and three other individuals' suspicion wrong, which I believe is a fair chance.

Yeah, I'm thinking of putting whywefight's rating on neutral for the moment, from what I know he doesn't care either way. Seems no one is getting the joke at all, and are just going head over heels thinking of it as a team which negs anyone remotely suspicious. Which sounds cool and all, but not worth going over the trouble of replying to every stupid comment taking the joke seriously.

Cool, tell you what, go and do so for around 5 months with no possibility of being added to DT, face 10s of pages of offensive message even when your ratings have no effect. I highly doubt you're going to do this just to prove a point and given your "Everything, scams, fraud , illegal stuff is cool. Government and the law is just nothing but someone trying to control you" attitude, I hardly believe you're going to tag even 10(of course you might now, just because this sounds like a challenge).

DT ain't = trustworthy, its an individual whose ratings you trust. I've probably repeated this many times, but you have the option to kick DT out of your trust list.
 (Not intended towards The Pharmacist)Also it fits my definition of ironical, don't know about you guys: --crap-- forgot what I was gonna even say

Edit: You should be going for the removal of DT system as a whole instead of targeting a specific individual

You can say all you want about how DT isnt trustworthy, the fact of the matter is that it is forced upon the forum's users and therefore should be regulated

Also, you are not offering people choices, when their reputations are on the line you are forcing them

It makes me smile, nothing more and nothing less. I dont care about my position in the DT system, i posted that several times. But i am putting up more -ve's the last days while collecting urls for my reports. I review sections when i have some time and do ratings regardless of who already left one.

i have excluded DT from my list and just added some people, my current depth is 0. I still review all the ratings before interacting with people.


LOL! First you asking to leave people alone and let them do what they want, now you want the trust system moderated. MADE MY DAY!

Are you saying anyone isn't free to create their own list of people who they trust, and use DT not because they're lazy but because theymos is forcing it down their throat? You're kidding right?

While you're forcing Blazed to remove me from his trust list, while making it seem as if his reputation is getting affected by me. Anyway, so, you guys are allowed to question my activities/loans/ratings while I can't question something that is suspicious and can(and according to anonymous has been proved to a trusted member) be proved otherwise if provided the proof?

On the first place you said you enjoyed that, didn't you ? and secondly i appreciated that,didn't I ?

No, I just ask people to think for a while and nothing else.That is your created agenda.I never said anything is cool or not.

No, I wont.I lost the challenge. :-\

How am i targeting ?

---

OK i don't want to be bitch here,but i cant agree to people getting harassed for no reason other than IMO's.

Nope I said I had the time to do so(feel free to quote the post which I think you're referencing)
And that is another sentence that you wrote, that I don't understand
Ehm over 10 posts against me and Lutpin?
While you are harassing me to accept your opinion, and constantly attacking Blazed with "This guy is being nothing more than a nuisance who is hurting your reputation" . Also are you not offering your opinion here?

Well I'd love to say this
But I guess being new in DT doesn't give you that privilege, gotta wait for a few more months I guess.

Honestly, I have nothing against mexxer-2 (except for, sorry mexxer, his childish positive ratings). He seems like a nice guy and if Blazed thinks he's trustworthy, by all means go ahead.

It's Lutpin I'm slightly more skeptical about - and, IMHO, I have good reason to. I've done my research on him and from what I've seen, he seems okay but has no real background; okay, he manages the forum image of Crypto-Games (along with a few others, I think) and mods there, but from what I can tell with my light digging in, his claim to fame is that he's mexxer-2's friend and they have loaned each other a substantial amount. His recent negative feedbacks are more based on personal opinion than on proof; but again, I have a neutral stance and if Blazed thinks Lutpin is deemed trustworthy enough to be on DT then I'm fine with it.

All in all, I think it's good to note that being on DT is not for people who will take their position in a non-serious approach. If you guys stay on DT (which is probable) then just realize that maybe it's time to think slowly into things. (Not saying you guys are immature; it's just a friendly remark.)

TL;DR: Everything's good, it's Blazed's decision, no amount of moaning and groaning will do anything. It's time for everyone to grow up and mature, both complainers and the "victims" (for a lack of a better word).

And before anyone asks, no, I'm not a sockpuppet account. I've done my research as a newbie, improbable as it seems.

P.S. Artemis Fowl was a great read. :) @mexxer-2

I am not attacking Blazed but when i see multiple threads daily then obviously it is silly drama for nothing in return and that is what i said.

which opinion ? how am i harassing you ? i am talking to you and i didn't tagged you a negative to do what i want.

---

Now, as i see you have started trolling & i am not interested in it,you may continue.Thanks.

So its just about the gift card ratings?

---

I checked lutpins ratings and I see nothing wrong either. They focus more on ratings regarding hacked/stolen accounts (Netflix for 2 cent) and alts (not only of scammers) than mexxer-2. I decided not to create a long list as it seems wasted efford from the replies here.

the drama occurs because biased scammers got tagged and than cry because they got caught.

At this point yes, but many of their ratings are questionable

What surprises me in the gift cards matter is the fact that they are using their numbers to force people into releasing information

I'm surprised your brainchild lutpin has not commented here yet ? On the other hand is it hard to post answers utilizing your Alternative record ?

I would not be blown away if the other shill account lutpin comments afterwards.The sole reason you literally begged to drive in the pool of DT was to use it is a privilege and not a Responsibility.

posted by the guy hiding behind a throwaway...

So here's what's going to happen next.I shall be creating a group of my own {we DT 1 members} and negative tag everyone who is selling forum accounts.Try not to be astounded when you will be the primary part we might be negative rating.A random account messaged me you being a lender with possession of multiple accounts as defaulted loans.

If you're laws to step-up to the selling of Unauthorized Goods are truthful , you should be negative trusting yourself as selling of forum accounts is a heinous crime.I would categorize it as even worser than selling of third party Goods.

@Mexxer-2 You truly included a member who offers forum account sells  to your trust list ? Just includes to your youthfulness {immaturity} to be on the DT.  

Yes i do, like most lenders that accept accounts as collateral. If the "random account" is able to read he might have seen that there is a list available of loans i had given. suprise, suprise. And yes, i am currently selling accounts of defaulted loan. All without trusted feedbacks! If you decide to -ve me with your main acc because i do so, please make sure you leave the correct refference so people can see it. I own them so i can sell them. i got them by a legit way, documented with signed messages. ask me about them i can proof it.

Instead of trying to sound like the cool hardcore btct pro bitcoin expert, who coded like 6000 lines while having a cold, being blind with his hands behind his back and using his nose to hit the keyboard, enlight us who you are and i welcome your friends to directly ask me what i am doing and why. i wait five minutes before i check back for you reply.

oh and btw, yes i have socks i use to contact sellers and guess what people know about it.

Just proved one of my issues with this group forming in this response. A continued escalation against those that you personally feel are bad for the community and not what is right for the community all around. Try to look at the other side of this and you will notice a lot of coup attempts look exactly like this.

Aren't rats like you who re sell accounts are the reasons for primary scams in the first place ? I don't like repeating myself I'm operating through a Public Computer in a Remote Offsite work.How does knowing my real identity make you less guilty ?

I don't know if i am an alien or what but if i am gonna get abused for sharing my opinions then i am sorry cause i expected some level of maturity in the discussion.I have a habit to imagine myself in victim as well as accusers position and come to the most fair solution ,without expecting my personal gains.Sorry if i was not supposed to do that.

SG defaulted his account to zazrb.How old was he and how trusted was he ?

He indirectly started abusing me cause i am posting in a thread which is against him.Just LOL.

if you want to -ve me because you are thinking selling accs from defaulted loans is not right, i welcome you to do so!

Heutenamos, your name was randomly used as an example because YPII brought it up, not more not less

Oho, you can call me childish, my posts childish, but not my ratings  :D
I'm gonna let Lutpin answer that , sometime tomorrow probably. Weird though, he's online nearly 15/7
Well having quite the mindset of QS, I have a reason to believe you are an alt of someone who recently PMed me. A member wanting to start over. Blame QS for it I guess

Awesome , really? You read it? Don't finish on the first book in the series though

Lol, come up with facts some "non-foreign" guy.

I was actually quite surprised when I( and especially Lutpin) got added to DT. Although Blazed did say I was "near DT material" or something similar, QS was going to be added before me. I expected at least a few months before he'd get around to considering me for DT again.
Also even though you keep calling me the "foreign" I somehow seem to have better English speaking/writing skills. Just saying.

You accusing/ in your words "talking about" me trolling? Irony

Sure go for it, expect retaliation like this one, perhaps even bigger considering many of the existing DT members are against neg-tagging account sellers. Also, then you'd just get newbs who won't get their rep affected , selling accounts. Also, I probably don't have to tell you how theymos deals with community backlash about people on DT 1.

Also your only bragging point in this thread has been you being in control of a Legendary DT 2/1(I'm confused) with over 50 ratings, with no names disclosed. Not that I'm trying to "ad homien" attack you, but you seem pretty cool with it being general knowledge

You're free to have your opinion, but community "vote" says otherwise

Now you're just grasping at straws, I trust his ratings. How he makes BTCs is none of my business, and apparently none of others when QS was selling DT accounts

Edit: Seriously guys, lets have a 5 min cool-down after each reply

if you and your "dt friends" and the random account follow the tracks you will see i sold 1 account so far, the terms state i will reveal all information about the sale as soon as i see the account involved in something shady. i keep following the accs i might sell and the one i already sold. if you think this is wrong, i welcome everyone to leave a feedback with a refference.

i would like to know who i am speaking to, just asking.

Not in times when I lay I bed with the flu and 38.5 fever.

Cool, my alt and "brain child" is here. Now remember, there are many facts in this thread as to why you're my alt and are not just accusations thrown to derail the thread, so there is no reason to act innocent. These trolls "talk"ers know everything, treat them with respect /sarcasm

Thats about maturity you can expect right now, from me

Nice to have the permission and all,but I am not interested in getting into the forum in that aspect.
But I am willing to voice concern for a group I think is going about things in a scary manner.

The tactics are very heavy handed and that is my only issue,but it seems like as I read this may expand as well. :)

The "HateLeague" joke's off, I can post the the series of PMs which lead to this reference/joke if thats what will get your sense of humor back on

you dont need permission to do so. its the same system i use. if think its scam i leave a feedaback. so if others think i am a scammer they should leave a feedback too! if someone proofs my my feedback is wrong i will remove it. said this numerous times.

Why should you be able to alter someone's rating out of what you feel but we need proof that what you think is wrong in order for the feedback to be removed

The trust system is broken

Are we still acting as if any of your/our opinions on this matter, matter? Cool. Lord theymos, please change the trust system

If you, lutpin and others to follow keep doing what you guys are doing, then he will have no choice but to change the system,

If you want the system changed go here (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1377259.0)

You are actually getting funny to think theymos is even going to more than bat an eye for something which is clearly you and a few other individual's personal feud against me(and Lutpin)

For my part: i will go on with what i currently do: Cleaning the Digital Goods section.

Was sarcasm. You are glossing over the point that people need to prove innocence because you want them too. That is not a good way to go about correcting a issue. Its called being a bully.
If they do not play ball you neg rep them.
That is the issue,who is to say you are trying to get rid of competition. If you want to attack people be prepared for people to look into you.

Its disturbing to know there are people like you that are willing to walk on people to get to their goal.
Sad this is how the forum wants to be.

Lack of voice shows people are scared or agree with you.

Was that me you were addressing as well while making the post?

Don't be scared of course, you can get away with saying pretty much anything to me  :P . Most of the times its trolls who keep making real life implications of a pretty simple discussion, or just go offensive. And users who don't speak at all, not afraid because they'll get retaliation feedback because they spoke up, its because they're afraid DT members will find some dirt on them. I've found out, a lot of DT members keep track of each other's "dirt".

You missing an important fact: the forum is not real life. If i think you are a scammer i can -ve you and i will do so including a refference. Are you guys just wroting or actually reading?? Again if i think so and there is no proof that i am wrong, how could i change my mind if no one proofs me wrong? Its simple.

Fair enough.


No problem.


Yes, actually. It's a bit too late for that, I've read the series a couple times. Good books, I have my childish side as well.

The ending of the first book was decently good though, what do you have against it?


Sounds bad, hope you feel better.

---

For everyone else: Sounds to me like this thread is useless seeing that Blazed said he'll think over it and that's that.

THIS THREAD IS TOO ACCURATE.

Kid, you should stop over compensating with your trust.. sure people trust you around here and I would be one of them, but please: learn to take criticism properly

If you'll react like that towards this situation there's more reason to believe you can't be trusted with your attitude

If you don't want to hear the truth, i.e theymos doesn't care, well you're one ignorant guy

The thread title was not to be taken seriously, it's a PSA for the community not just Theymos.

Use that trust rating powered brain of yours

You've got me confused, so the thread title is not supposed to be taken seriously while you should take it as an announcement?

Well anyway, I'm cool with people finally using their brain, stopping being a lazy ass and making a trust list of their own.

---

---

At this point I'm wondering a reply to this is as off-topic as the recent replies in the thread

Personally I find the arguments and faux-outrage of those of less-than-honest nature, when it comes to being marked as having a less-than-honest nature, utterly fallacious.

Just as much as nobody is here to stop them doing whatever they wish to do in their libertarian utopia, we are equally as entitled to objectively mark them as evidently having demonstrated a less-than-honest nature.

We're not stopping them, we're simply communicating to others the facts of their past behaviour.

It's called consequence, people.

If you read the manner that these two post you will see they both come at the issue in exactly the same manner.
Now a few say they are the same person and can see how that logic applies due to the obvious issues they have with reading between the lines.
If the way they have come at this thread and threads based around the same topic are of any evidence it is bad for the forum.
All anyone needs to do is look through these posts and see they often misunderstand what is being said or stated to them and they still
want people to be forced to explain themselves through private message.
If trusted accounts are stooping to harassing members in pm land,then why would they be trusted in the first place?
This idea that what they is doing is honorable and good,is just presuming that the intent is honest. Since no one knows,it should be scrutinzed a little more then open attacks on the community.

I also do not see a open discussion on this topic,rather a few stating this is how it is going to be and we should all except it.
Is that really how we want to run things here,by letting a few people take the reins and push their mandate on the rest of us?

This topic has turned into a wall since hardly any new voices are coming in and speaking their minds. Its pretty clear where those of us active in these threads stand. Would be nice to see others speak up.

I didn't even comment on this thread yet.

Then it should be clear who I am referencing! ;D

No offense but I think my posts are being misread on purpose. Is this to mislead or whats the problem?

Maybe you should stop using "they" in your messages then.

Maybe you should not inject yourself into a problem without reading the three threads rotating around this issue.
Its two people in all three defending the action of this new group,maybe if all the names where posted I would adjust "they" but till this point it was just the two posting.
Why are you nit picking anyways,seems a bit off topic?

Maybe I don't need to "inject" myself into anything, when I'm clearly mentioned as mexxer's "Brain child" in OP, and this thread is aswell agains me as it is against him.

Maybe you need to stop your unethical assaults by miss using the DT power.Also the voting poll already has the answer "No one likes you around".What is the point of your existence in this forum tough guy ?


And this is what community says->

 

You think it is all a coincidence right ? Teaming up of all the members Hateful league has tagged and voting with multiple accounts .If this voting doesn't convince you ,I don't know what will.The point is,we want a decentralized system here wherever the majority is satisfied with the actions taken.

Who are you ?

You seem like a sensible guy .My identity is of less importance.Fact that we shall try to bring neutralization back in this forum is the priority. I can't digest the fact that these clowns are destroying the system which took ages to build.

Not meaning to "ad hominem "attack you but considering your only bragging point in this thread has been that you are a DT member yourself since some time, and are a legendary member, I'd like you to at the least name the account. Seems you're cool with it anyway


Yeah, and you are yet to come up with a sensible explanation as to why we should be removed. Pure offending someone is easy, there's even a website based on it if you like http://foulomatic.hnldesign.nl/

Unlike you,I like my decisions be based upon everybody's opinions.Fact is,you're too immature to understand how decentralization works.I would suggest you to read the bitcoin documentation if you haven't already.

About comments on my English Language ,I'm from Japan and to an extent I can read and write as long as my points are understood its Okay.Do you mind writing a two letter word in Japanese for me ? You cant.Stop using language as the barrier to attack in a discussion.

Bitcoin protocol != trust system. This is a private forum if you haven't gotten to know it yet.
I have , many times actually why you ask?

I was commenting on you calling me a "foreign" , seems I made a mistake in catching your meaning behind it
Thought it was the other way around

So I clearly reference two people and you skip past that to say
"I didn't even comment on this thread yet."

So I am supposed to be able to understand that you are upset I left you out in reference?
You take offense to "they" which is defined and write that. :D

Really have no time to piss around the barn,if you have a issue speak on it. Lets not get sidetracked in semantics. The issue for me is a group that seems to have a bit of a issue with
black & white thinking and a slight English issue,going to town on people because they now feel they have the conch(reference. Lord of the flies).
Step back see what the forum thinks and if you still disagree fine. At least we went through a process to show you are in the majority or you are way out in left field.

So you say, you could also be somebody else entirely. Why should we listen to a sock-puppet who posted a poll in which sock-puppets could have voted?

Why should you have heard of them before and what's with the 'foreigner' xenophobia considering you claim to be Japanese and this concerns English-language posts?

The Trust system isn't about trades, it is about trustworthiness.

Why are you hiding behind a sock if you are supposedly such an esteemed forum member?

What are you afraid of?

It sounds more likely that you've been tagged for having been less-than-honest and you're bitching about them over something else entirely because you resent having been tagged.

Why are you hiding?

What have you got to hide?

Thats great, while the poll stated something different, you didnt quote it, now while it fits your needs you do... great op, really great. self owning at its best!

No offense to whywefight but this is the post I'd like to see OP answer, he's been at first openly claiming something only to hide behind "Doesn't matter" later

So we have a topic about trust abuse and here we are going after a member because they do not want to disclose who they are.
Most likely the same reason few are stepping into this discussion out of fear of retaliation from a group. You leave neg rep after one another,so it would stand to be said you would attack in the same manner.
Its a distaction to hunt down who this account is because I could use the same argument against you by saying that you are all the accounts Blaze let in to trust. Its a pointless argument because I am not going to prove it and you are not going to find out who this is.
The more off course we get the more it shows you group are unstable when you feel like you are on the defensive.

Only thing I can think is this is a cultural difference that is in play,because it feels quite clear to me that there is some misuse of power.

i dont have anything to be defensive about. i am here

Again, i welcome everyone on here to leave me feedbacks for my wrong doing with a reference so people can decide if the feedback is usefull or not.

Read the OP again, he's just way too important to disclose his details. Also this

or you are biased and your opinion should be discarded here.

-> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1363981.0

Edit: Allow me to clarify why I posted this. The discussion lacks good arguments as to why the two should be removed from DT. They are abusive is one argument, yet clear cases of abuse have not brought forth, besides for the gift cards. There is another thread discussing whether DT members should go against gift card sellers or not. I have a strong feeling that this (and the other two threads) are here for the same reason. Lutpin and mexxer-2 are new to DT so it is easier to attack them than others that took a stance against gift card sellers. It is in no way meant to attack or discredit you as a person, I think I just understood why this comes now and for what reason.

Obviously. :D
I sold 2 giftcards on here because it was easy to unload them and got sick of seeing them sitting next to my computer,or near by in a drawer. But if that taints me,or how we are judged it just makes my issue with the group that more potent.

The forum has a tendency to go looking for dirt and cross some ones opinion out because of one aspect or another.
It could be my spelling or choice of words,this case a random sale. But I should mention that I was drawn to the thread initially because those sales did happen recent and was wondering what the deal might be with those amazon cards.
Figured it out but left disturbed that a group fancies harassing in private message those that are using the forum to make sales.
This does not change anything for me,maybe those that read but Its all out there for anyone to look into.

No, dont be dishonest, the OP has failed to even make a coherent case for his claim about there being an abuse of the trust system. What we have instead is a rambling diatribe employing fallacious reasoning and ad hominem complaint about how the commercial issuers of gift cards are apparently fully aware they are open to abuse but don't care, as though that is a reasonable defense of dishonest behaviour, even if it were true, which is highly unlikely.

Then, when the sock-puppet's posts in this thread are challenged for being utterly void of merit and lacking in substance, we see him and other, equally vapid contributors to this discussion, try to claim there is a fucking 'cultural' issue and that they are being 'attacked'.

The only people being put 'on the defensive' here are the assholes who clearly don't like the trust system being used for the purpose it exists for, namely, communicating to other forum users the referenced proof of a user's dishonest behaviour.

Well you don't come close to untrustworthy in my book if thats what you mean

---

---

Hell no, I'm not letting my post hide cryptodevil's

How am I being dishonest? My perception may be off but you can not call me dishonest because you do not agree.
Since when is voicing a contrary opinion so bad in this forum? You can write me off as sock-puppet by I am still here and it does not change my view. Hopefully others can think for themselves,nor do I wish to sway them. Just want a open discussion.

Pretty much yes, I admit I might've jumped the gun in anonymous3xx(some numbers) case as, now that I think about it 20% is a pretty reasonable discount. But its still open to discussion as to if the selling of such discounted cards is susceptible to a negative rating, jumping on the conclusion that I'm extorting someone for no reason is just stupid. My rating shows my opinion about such suspicious activity, and from what I know long-standing members'(not some mindless shill alts) opinion is the same, if you feel it should be different instead of rooting out users whose minority of ratings are on that topic, try convincing the community(not the biased mindless alts) why such an opinion is wrong.

And for f*ck's sake, don't use real life implications as an example.

So are you now going to remove the negative rating from anonymous22's account? Since you say that his discounts is reasonable i dont think the negative trust is needed, his trust page is here (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=248833)

Fair enough, changing it to a neutral for now, but considering his side of the argument , he has sent OgNasty necessary proofs that the method used to obtain those. The neg will be reinstated(in a week's time to be specific) if a confirmation is not posted by OgNasty as he has promised

And I'm waiting for some smartass to post the loop again "Why are you not removing the feedback if you're not entirely suspicious? [After neg removed] See you had to admit you were wrong, and someone who makes even one wrong decision is not fit for DT"

Did OgNasty say he will release confirmation in a week? What if OgNasty does not deal with this matter within a week, although it will be out of anonymous22's control, would you again let him suffer?


edit: also, yes Heutenamos will rub the fact that you had to change the feedback in your face

No but anonymous did(that he'll be letting one of the trusted member to confirm ASAP, 7 days is more than enough)
Its not out of his control, he just has to get one of the trusted non-biased 3rd party individual to confirm any of his GCs aren't obtained illegally. You can go over the details as to how with EcuaMobi

How am i forcing blaze to remove you? do you have any evidence?

Don't mind it, he's being overly defensive to protect his DT state. All we came here to do was voice our opinions on the matter till he started acting up here in the thread

Well, I see this has turned into quite the shit storm. I have been afk for the last few days and not had a chance to go over all these threads yet. I will read all these posts in this thread and the others and see why we have all of this drama.

Oh what a fucking drama queen you are.  The boy isn't going to suffer because of a negative rating and if he does then he should get to a hospital.

Heutenamos will do as you said because he's a fucking asshole, and most of what he says should be summarily disregarded, like most of what you say.

My name seems to be appearing a lot in this thread.  Let me just poke my head in and say a couple things.

1) Nobody sent me any proof of anything, and I don't think such a thing exists relating to the purchase of gift cards.  If someone asked me to confirm such a thing, I would tell them no.

2) Guns were sold on this forum.  It is legal to do so in the US.  All the gun sales I saw involved shipping to licensed dealers for pickup.  Perhaps this seems odd to those who do not live in the US, but here we can buy guns from anyone fairly easily and legally.

3) People who spam the forum with crap to make a couple dollars a week are not contributing anything.  Paid signature campaigns, account sellers, and the escrows who support them are making this community a really crappy place.

Has there been any attempt to send you anything that could possibly be considered evidence of legitimicy or has there been any attempt to prove to you that the gift cards in question are legit?

If the answer is yes then it would be possible that you simply do not wish to stake your reputation on someone else who you do not know which I would not find to be unreasonable. However if there was outright no attempt to send any kind of documentation of the legitimacy of the GC in question then he was outright lying when he said that he sent you "proof"

He sent me a message explaining things from his side and asked me to review emails from newegg to authenticate his gift cards.  I ignored it.  Not because I have any issue with him, but simply because it is not a service I offer nor want to be involved in.  People send me all sorts of crazy requests that have nothing to do with me all the time.  These days I rarely take the time to respond.

Maybe I get life imprisonment for getting involved in Guns and you dont.Maybe there is someone who thinks Gun's and weapons are the reason why thousands of people get killed or are abused,raped or looted at the streets etc...and the escrows who support them are making this human community a really crappy place ?

A 18 year old in Japan wants to stop that but you are promoting the sales while providing proper safety of the Guns or weapons and the escrows who support them are making this human community a really crappy place ?

Sig Spammer can be banned and that banned account can be recovered by the Admin or any staff guy but the Innocent person who who was killed by the Carjacker with a GUN cannot be brought back to life to support his family and the escrows who support them are making this human community a really crappy place ?

Be a 10 year old and fight for what you like or be a grown up and fight for what is right ,Is your choice.

That is the stupidest argument I've ever heard.  Also, for the record... I have never been involved in any gun sales on this forum.  Not as a buyer, seller, or escrow agent.

Forcing was not the right word, attacking was.

Don't mind him, he's pretty well known for derailing conversations

 
Yes, I am stupid if i don't say stupid to what you say stupid,Isn't it ?

OK then, why bragging ? It is no way cool or impressive and nor this thread is bout discussing guns should be sold or not.

Yes My Lord don't mind me. I am your dogie and will be barking for you all my life and expect you to give me one positive rating just before i die and also add me your trust list so that i could troll others with the feedback's.

Like talking bout guns in Reputation ?

Aren't Lions...you know, cats.

---

Indeed it would.

that would include lauda i guess ?

What gives you the authority to say so ?Did you have a look,day by day the threads about your Trust abuses is increasing .Surprisingly they are not from the people who have negative tagged.Just waiting for the day you are thrown out of DT and
some sense is returned in this forum again.

Also tell your puppet whywefight to read Og's post , selling accounts ==Poison to this forum.You seem to encourage it.Amazing use of DT power.

You're seriously delusional , you're the one who introduced the topic randomly in the first place. He's just replying
You're an immature dumb guy who should not be on this forum....... is what MisterMiyagi aka you would say. Anyway, you still are making arguments about my trust list/feedbacks while yourself having incomplete knowledge of the trust system. I've made a pretty simplistic explanation of it in ejarwan's thread you know.

Yep, to be exact , talking about guns and real life implications of what should be a well made arguments-driven conversation as to why I should not be in DT.

Anyway I've found two people in total who don't at all agree with tagging GC sellers, others are still iffy on the subject and would potentially change their opinion if you give them well-made arguments , me included. And as shorena earlier said:

Yep its just yours and a thread from Dorritulx who doesn't seem to understand the situation rather is joining the side for no apparent reason
Yep, they are guys who were indirectly butthurt long time ago who feel its important to join the "witch hunt" against me and Lutpin
Aand another point to Miyag for derailing the conversation bravo

This is what ,In all these threads none of my posts were a personal attack to anyone and nor to you.But you keep on abuse people calling them Dumb,immature,stupid,delusional or quoting other abusive quotes by alt accounts on DT2 and etc etc...

This is not what i could agree to and stop replying for others. Let the Nasty reply.

Op went silent?? lol

Probably in the process of growing a pair or something.

I really doubt that OP is default trust lvl 1 for a few reasons. His typing is exactly the same as Heutenamos (they odd way he uses commas) also if he were DT1 he would have just msg me and told me who he was. I really think that Lutpin and Mexxer are doing alright so far. I think it sucks we need people who have to scam bust, but this forum is a cesspool of scammers if we do not. I am on the fence about the gift cards though. Some people do sell cheap cards and I doubt all of them are carded. If someone is offering a warranty with them...obviously carded. I have spoken with a few high-level people and had some message me about these 2 additions. Everyone agrees they are doing an alright job so far. My only advice is slow down and make sure you are right when leaving negative feedback. I am also glad the "hate crew" name is gone...that was a bit much.

I do agree that this trust system is sorta broken. I am not really sure of a good way to fix it though.

Yeah , thought it was pretty much obvious.
Pretty much the same here but am open to any suggestions(in Ecua's thread)

Blame it on the ponzi which was withholding payment because of my tag  :D :

Well, glad that this is resolved. Heutenamos MisterMiyagi please lock the thread.

How did it get resolved? the hateleague members were removed from DT?

I thought OP was tspacepilot.  Am I totally wrong?

Blazed has stated that no further action, such as removal of the accused will occur. The only thing anyone can now do is troll and-or ridicule him.

Well he is free have his opinions, if he feels the ratings are fine although everyone says otherwise then we'll just have to accept it.
Why doesnt he have an open discussion about this?

1) If your definition of "everyone" is you , Heu, qory(random guy who appeared to vote on the poll), a suspected alt of Heu who keeps saying he is on DT and other sh*t and a bunch of random people who don't even publicly post about their vote, then yes "everyone" said otherwise.
2) This was an open discussion and that is the conclusion Blazed reached to

Edit: Anyway, enough time wasted on someone who doesn't even have a clear understanding of the trust system

Ok, so only the people who publicly say something count?
Why have a poll then?

Where ?

How so ?

Seems to be some a bit of two tier system when it comes to judgement,those that have trust and everyone else.
Maybe I am a random,sockpuppet,idiot that keeps getting his neck back in the discussion but the language that is used when refering to people like me is a bit alarming and makes me a bit queasy.
If you want to clean up the forum,please start by cleaning up the way you refer to people you view as less than. Might help break through the issue in play.

Seems like a good name for me


Yes, I don't understand how trust system works. I have voted just because of these

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=891368.msg9825583#msg9825583

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=902473.msg9915515#msg9915515

If this is true then QS is also my alt now ?


what a serious Troll you are Blazed .

Everyone says otherwise? Or a bunch of butthurt socks and scammers?

It is incredibly dishonest of you to refer to a handful of people who resent the process of exposing bad practice on this forum as being in the moral majority.


Wow. You literally have absolutely nothing of substance to counter with other than repeated tone complaints.

The OP is hiding behind a sock while making bold claims about how important he believes himself to be and you are utterly void of reasonable argument other than to repeatedly whine about how you don't like being labelled as the person you evidently are.

If you don't have anything objective to counter with then you don't get to complain.

This thread is exactly like all the other, "I don't like being held to account for my actions so I'll try and get people removed from DT instead" complaint threads.

Shit, all we need is someone to accuse Vod of being the real identity behind Lutpin and Mexxer and we'll have a full house of Bitcointalk Bollocks.

Tone is a issue because it shows ones true intent,if you are building a community you do not chastise those in it.
Its a stepping stone and was hoping to use that to build a bridge towards the issue of heavy handed tactics.
Also addressed the main issue on page one and glossed over the OP using another account to make his point as not that big of a deal.
If the thread is any indication I do not blame him/her from using a account that could be trolled on. To me the issue still stands.

Repeat myself because I can see a lack in countering voices and a little to much thought policing.

But yeah I am the one. :D

scammers dont care about the people they scam, i dont care about the scammers i burn...

Oculum pro oculo et dentem pro dente

People on DT should be more careful when they give negative trust to anyone, they must be 100% sure and have solid proof for this,Recently I have seen many negative trust ratings given by some users that was invalid and after many users disagreed with then they had to remove or change them.

With being on DT you get power and power gets you responsibility.Don't use it on innocent users but use it to find and bust scammers.

Blockchain evidence linking accounts is not proof? Not sure how many times I have to say this but: This is the risk of buying accounts. If addresses were used before, accounts will be linked back to the original owner(s) and this will cause problems the way accounts are being sold around here. SEC log proves nothing nothing other then the password being changed.

Simply put: You should expect negative feedback, even if it's temporarily when you buy accounts or are stupid enough to reuse the same BTC address linked to previous scams.

This is in response to your latest posts at: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1382778.0

its not about sold accounts but many negative trust given by them.You may like to read the red text again & check recent negative trust complains on forum


yes its risk of buying account but forum allowed this so you don't need to tell me this again if you don't have anything new.

Sorry, I don't think you're understanding me. I know forum accounts are allowed to be bought, frowned upon but allowed. Forum accounts that are bought have been linked back to their previous owners who scammed. This is what caused the issue over at:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1382778.0

No?

Are you saying scammers can go along doing whatever they please as long as they create another account, fake the sale of the account used to scam and then say "you can't leave negative feedback because I bought this account" because the SEC log shows the password has been changed? I'm not saying that's what happened but if allowing that, well it would just open a whole new door.

Maybe I'm missing something here. I don't follow up on all these threads, just throwing my two cents in based on what I've actually seen so far.

I am not supporting accounts sale and I am against it.I give negative trust to any high ranked sold account.but its not about the one negative trust given to linked thread but there are many others like this.

Just to throw my 2 Euro cents into the ring I'd like to point out that buying an account and not publicly and clearly stating that it is a bought account is blatant deception.

I don't care what excuses people want to dream up for why they want to use a bought account, it is to deceive other forum users, which is dishonest.

Have any examples? I've looked but only have found these:

Sold accounts getting negged because of past addresses linked to scammers.

Ponzi owners and shills getting negged - I'll leave it at that. To much for me lol Might as well let them keep their invest based games section and only neg them when they start sig spamming or conveniently post in the wrong section  ::)

Extremely shady gift card sellers getting negged - "Get your 50% discount on amazon gift cards here folks. You can't leave me negative feedback because I buy these accounts for someone else and im only reselling" - Now I'm well aware of the fact that some people do sell cards they get as gifts but come on... some sellers make it obvious.

0.1 netflix and $1 porn accounts getting negged - Again with the "I resell, i have no clue where these accounts come from but they have to be legit and not cracked / hacked because thats what I been told"



What some people here like to ignore is that these accounts may appear to be doing nothing more then sig spamming but eventually it comes out they have scammed someone, usually by skype or private message. I've also been seeing MANY aged accounts that appear to have been bought start scamming lately.. must be the new thing.

A neutral rating pointing out previous feedback or forum rank should be IGNORED doesn't hurt. I don't see why people are against this? If they start trying to buy and selling, they should receive a negative but some still want to ignore the fact FORUM STATUS (Member, Hero, Legendary, whatever) DOES MATTER HERE.

It also gets really annoying to see things like: "It's a free forum people can do whatever they want" etc etc... then when that same person receives negative feedback for doing something stupid they start whining about how you can't do whatever you want.

I'm sure others can and will counter everything I said above but let's not act like it doesn't happen more often then not.

Like to run two situations and see if this thinking holds up,sure it will not but lets try...

We currently negatively rank people that use ponzi schemes or endore it in a thread,no matter how deep they participate in the ponzi. The logic being that it will stop ponzi owners from using alt accounts to make it look like its on the up and up.
So this logic I do not agree with but,lets move on.
A account with positive ratings is sold and used in a scam,this has been mentioned above me.
If some one leaves a positive rating are they now facilitating in helping the scammer?
Or we going to put the blame squarely on the seller and negatively rate them for this?
Sure its obvious to people to just blame the seller but a part of me wonders if the trust should just automatically reset when
the account is traded. Like a option "Are you selling account or just changing password"!

The farther the issue spreads out the more easier it will be to poke holes into the issue. Hopefully you guys do not over extend and bite off to much.

This is utterly ridiculous
are you saying we shouldnt leave positive trust under any circumstance?
Also, people wont make it public that an account is being traded and if what you want gets implemented, people will fake account trades to get negative trust removed,

try again

Its a question for a reason. Was hoping to point out how ridiculous it is to go after people that write a comment in the ponzi thread because it could potentially be the ponzi owner. Did not buy the idea that some one saying they did well or not should also be labeled. The stretch I made in logic was on purpose.

On this forum corruption!  >:(

The mafia attacked me because I selling developed by me scripts!  :'( They probably wants % of selling!  :-X

FUCK CORRUPTION!

Tell you what,just ignore the default feedback on your profile and continue doing what you are good at.People will still buy your scripts,ponzi's will still run,keep selling the cracked/hacked giftcards if you believe that's what you are good at.The companies don't give a rat's ass about few bucks scammed here or there.They have all the rights to stop it but they aren't because it barely matters for them.It's just a few micro drops from their entire pool of sea as big a Arabian.A simple advise

Open your trust settings and in place of DefaultTrust https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust
just add ~DefaultTrust
 

Lol, OP dont do this, this is stupid, just add ~blazed to the list and update and you should be fine, dont remove default trust
also you dont have to remove blazed

just exchange your trust list with the following and you should be good

OP is Mr. Miyagi and he's the one giving the advice.  You're not too bright are you?  And I think it's solid advice for a number of reasons.

I feel ya mistermiyagi, or whoever the fuck you are  ;), the trust system has gone to shit.

The problem with trust is human nature. What do I mean by that? Well, take a look at our politicians. Before President Obama was elected into any form of office (including senator) he probably acted like a human. Same with Bush. But then they got into power and it took over. Their human emotions flew away as greed and deceit came into power and they felt better than everyone else.

It's the same thing here. A president is not better than you or me, just a representative. A worker. Someone on the default trust is not better than you or me either, just a representative. Someone who has been around here for enough to prove they are not just a troll. They should be dedicated to the forum, with every user taken into account.

Sadly, and it's the same with our politicians, we have immense retards on the default trust list where they act like little feminist robots. Getting offended by everything and acting as if they're in charge.

When you try explaining something to them, they just say "oh, and you're a ponzi scammer." Hell, I'd love to see someone like Cryptodevil actually explain what a ponzi is. Go to the investor based games section, on EVERY post, no matter the proof, he posts his BULLSHIT PSA claiming everything is a ponzi. Even if the admin can prove its no ponzi, he won't take any evidence cause he's incompetent and stupid yet nothing is done.

CONCLUSION: there's probably some special interest, sexual favours ;) going on here and that's why the losers are taking over this forum. All these guys are doing is desensitizing the trust system, making no one give a shit about it and trying to limit free speech. Let's show these assholes that Bitcoin is about freedom, and we will put our bitcoins where we damn please - without their stupid centralization tactics.

You guys go ahead and do that. Just don't bother opening a thread when one of the assholes they never rips you off because you chose to ignore the warning signs. :)

You're kidding right? Before this whole trust thing was an issue, I had been scammed so many times "your head will spin". Not once has the trust system ever protected me.

You know what taught me? Trial and error. Learning.

We don't need you fascist nannies to help us grow, I have studied business and economics for long enough to know where to put my money - and I've worked long enough to know where I want to put my money.

It is not my responsibility if someone else sees that I deposited and then wants to deposit. It's their right to deposit but not their right to get mad.

I never once complained that I lost my money. I was pissed but I used that to grow. Honestly you guys piss me off more than losing money because we can't use it to grow. It's just that you're incompetent and I wish you weren't - our world would be so much better off.

Here is a fun fact: cryptodevil is in the Default Trust network because he is on Dooglus's trust list. Dooglus owns a gambling site, Just-Dice that competes with the ponzis that cryptodevils is trying to discourage anyone from participating in.  Is there any connection.....I will let you be the judge of that

You can throw as many insults at me as you'd like. I have thick skin.

My point is that users like Lutpin, whywefight, etc. have been around for a long time. People taking it upon themselves to try to cleanup the community and protect absolute noobs via pointing out possible/probable scams is not new here. If you'll recall (if you were around...I haven't looked) there were threads like this two years ago about people "abusing the trust system"

Can I honestly say that I don't ever see cases of someone being overzealous in their trust comments? Of course not. Just the other day, I accidentally accused a trusted, long-time member of being a scammer. No one's perfect in their judgment.

What's important is that, as far as I know, any one have of these users are perfectly willing to reverse or remove their negs if the user shows themselves to not be what was suspected. Does that take time? Absolutely.  However, if you look at accounts like Darkstar_ (sp?) and BillyBoy (again....not positive on the full user, but you can easily find them), they have accepted the ratings and are working to show them to be wrong.

You'll notice that many of those accused of shady behavior immediately leave and probably start new accounts. This tells *me* (I could always be wrong....I'm human, after all) that they were only interested in making a quick buck off of someone else's naivety.

The bottom line is this: If you feel like you've been unfairly tagged, don't start a thread crying about it. Ask the person why it was done and see what it would take to change their mind. Negs aren't permanent.

Two questions for you, dickhead:
1. Prove that tagging demonstrably untrustworthy people is desensitizing the trust system
2. How is communicating the proven untrustworthiness of a user to the community limiting that user's free speech?


Yeah, we know you keep repeating the same bullshit assertion in the face of facts.

*sigh* Let's try again

Yes I am sure you have very thick skin, however you totally missed the point.


Desensitization: "defined as the diminished emotional responsiveness to a negative or aversive stimulus after repeated exposure to" (look it up). So, moron (since we like calling each other fun names) that means, in this case, people are going to see red trusts on every profile sooner or later based on how you guys tag. Therefore meaning NO ONE will trust it anymore!

Why won't they? Because, read the text above once more. This will result in more people getting scammed. How? Because they will no longer care for the trust system so they can't tell if the user they want to trade with will be a scammer. This will make them have not rely on trustworthy members to report back but rather they're own judgement.

This means you're not being a trusted forum member and thus should be ashamed for the dishonest hypocrisy. You should all be tagged with a negative but I don't give a shit like you do.

That aside, what happens if I do not give a shit about if others are being ripped off? This forum is just to communicate, not to take major advice. So if you win the lottery won day (hypothetical here) and spent it all on a house and went bankrupt the next day, I don't give a shit. I am not your mom, your nanny or your fascist leader that is trying to tell you what to do. I couldn't care less whether someone burns all their money on a scam. Not my issue.

Your feedback for me says:


while my refference links to a page where you wrote:


1. you stated you have been paid multiple times. Means people will think "oh look its paying!"
2. You make doublebot looking more legit by comparing it to other ponzis which failed. by doing so you admit you know exactly what doublebot is: a ponzi.
3. You stated that a ponzis nature is to fail, hence you advertising this one in the same sentence.

Now, please explain me how this is not advertising? i didnt look it up, but i am sure you posted more than once in that thread.

Thanks for delivering a great example like this. It clearly shows you dont give a fuck about others while you think you are right.

That's total bullshit. This is why users like you cannot be trusted at all, hence my feedback.

Where is your damn proof that Doublebot is a ponzi? I don't see it.

I really should start a business selling dictionaries this is stupid. Anyway, definition of a ponzi: "A Ponzi scheme is a fraudulent investment operation where the operator, an individual or organization, pays returns to its investors from new capital paid to the operators by new investors, rather than from profit earned by the operator."

Wow that was long. Anyway something like Cryptoboost or Flexybit (remember those?) were ponzis. You have no evidence that Doublebot is a ponzi!

Here's my evidence it's not: I've analyzed the percentages, whenever the price per btc goes down then back up, as it does everyday, the percentages go up. Nothing happens if otherwise.

It's not strong evidence, but it is. I still have btc in there that is pending and I believe that it will pay me out. You're little friends also cannot red tag me for saying this because Doublebot has not scammed a single individual thus far! They are consistently paying out - not a single satoshi scammed yet you can't wrap that around your head, can you?

Finally, to end it off, you're right. I don't give a fuck about others. If they want to put their money somewhere they will get scammed, it's their right and I couldn't care less. But where you're wrong is when you say I think I am right. I don't just think, I know.

td;lr: my feedback on you is accurate on 100% correct. thanks for the proof!

No but believe whatever you'd like.

Although you never answered my question: how can you prove that Doublebot is a ponzi?

You claimed that I promoted a ponzi, to which you reference Doublebot, yet there has been no concrete evidence from your side proving that the site actually is a ponzi.

If you can prove it, I still won't like you, but I'll at least admit you have some validity. But no, you can't. You just go on the investor based games and basically post your stupid ass PSA on every single thread, without doing prior research.

I presented my evidence as to why I do think Doublebot is a legit trading bot. That does not mean others have to invest, I just like the fact that it seems to work.

I presented my proof (read prior posts, I can quote it if you can't read), you should really present your proof too. Otherwise, stop abusing the trust system.

It is easy: as soon as people stop "investing" or not enough money is thrown at it, it will collapse. Did you ever hear of the real world? Is there anything that works the sames by just magically doubleing your money? No. For a reason.

I totally agree with this.  Calling any bitcoin doubler a ponzi or a scam doesn't require proof.  The claim that you can double your money is proof enough.

Doublebot... you mean the same site that guarantees you double in just a few days? Care to explain why people are waiting months? Looks like a select few are getting paid after some time, you know the shills pushing their ref links hard out of fear the ponzi collapses and they won't get paid :)

Competition is rough these days. Ponzi owners now have to make claims they just can't backup, not unless they have enough BTC on hand to pay members when nobody else deposits. Maybe setup receiving limits, otherwise it would be impossible to tell how much BTC would be required. I honestly see nothing wrong with ponzis that are clear what they are... but some of these sites just make ridiculous claims.

Just my two cents.. and no, I'm not part of the group who has been tagging ponzis  :)

You're kidding, right? There are ways I can double my money, especially through trading.

Ever heard of the real world (now you know how stupid that one sounded)? You CAN double your money through trading.

I know! What an absurd comment right? Well, actually, no. Here's some economics for ya:

Bitcoin works like any other commodity that is traded (sort of like the stock market), you buy a part/share of it for a certain price and then sell that same part/share for a better, more profitable price in the future. What's great with Bitcoin is that it is a very volatile currency. Meaning I can buy at the price of $380 one day and the next day sell at $450. Do the math. That's a $70 profit in one day, which is pretty good considering you did nothing.

It works with alt coins, too. You can invest big time with DOGE, CLAM, DASH and much more. You buy low, sell high, repeat. Do that long enough and you WILL double your money! It depends on the market, it could take a few minutes, a few days even a few years. No one knows but it is possible, if you don't invest like an idiot.

You can tell Doublebot trades because payments go out quicker and percentages go up higher when the price goes higher than it was and the stops when it goes down.

I never said that was perfect proof either. Maybe it is a ponzi, but the evidence that proves it isn't is much stronger than the proof that it is. Basically, you're giving your judgment based on a hypothetical situation, where what you're trying to prove hasn't actually happened yet you think it will.

Again, I appreciate you trying, but that's NOT real evidence. Please give ACTUAL evidence that is NOT based on fake, hypothetical scenarios that you're making up or STOP abusing the trust system!

So why are you throwing penauts on ponzis? Play the big game if its so easy getting 100% profit.


Explain us how so we can go on and teach all ponzi player what they should do with their money instead of feeding ponzi operators.

[/quote]
I know! What an absurd comment right? Well, actually, no. Here's some economics for ya:


Wow, impressive here is a pro tip: try this between exchanges with different rates! But i guess you dont have the funds for arbitage trading cause they all tied up with doublebot, right?


Again, why dont you do so if it is that easy?


ALL ponzis die sooner or later, its their nature. and i happens the same way all the time. just because it wont die the next five minutes doesnt mean it will run forever.


I think, your posts encourage other to invest in doublebot. i strongly belive that with a certain amount the operator will run. like everyone before him did. if he does some kind of real trading (or whatsoever) he could explain what he does. but he cant. Its a ponzi, ponzi are scams.

@whywefight (Because I don't feel like quoting, too lazy)

I am throwing peanuts at something that has not been proven to be a ponzi because I don't feel like trading.

I have a life and a job where I make money. I don't feel like spending a ton of time on the markets doubling it if I can have something automatic do it for me. Why not throw $25 at a system that could either stay around or collapse. I don't care if I lose it.

Really, you haven't presented any legitimate case that would ever prove Doublebot to be a ponzi. And hey, maybe it actually is! But you know, maybe unicorns do exist and perhaps I can grow money on trees, right?

There is more evidence pointing towards it being legit than a ponzi yet you still deny that just so you can seem cool and get attention. That's all it is -- you guys don't benefit from this. You just want positive attention so you go ahead and post unjustified PSAs on the investor based games section.

As stated many times, I have never once endorsed a ponzi. This right now, is NOT an endorsement. Simply common sense. You have no grounds to call Doublebot a ponzi. Maybe if you present a better argument than "it's a ponzi and you're a scammer" and give actual proof that backs it up, we'd believe your PSAs and start actually thinking about it.

Unless you can prove Doublebot is a ponzi, you should not be posting all the big red PSAs on every thread in the investor based games. Investor based games is NOT synonymous to ponzi, it means games where you must use your own funds, meaning not everything is a ponzi. But whatever as if that's important right?

have a look on the board, how many started, how many are still running, how many failed?

doublebot has all signs of a ponzi, of course we cant proove it failed until it failed. simple as that. you might afford loosing 25$, others dont. if people are aware of this why are all the threads full of people complaining payouts stopped?

Like all ponzis, doublebot will fail. that is common sense.

Why is doublebot a ponzi: As long as new investors deposit, old investors get a payout. If it stops, no payouts. You might wanna lookup the doublebot wallets and follow the trails, wouldnt you be suprised to know doublebot is currently holding only 0.3BTC. Of course, we didnt check all trails by now, but i guess we wont see large transactions that look like trading.

He knows it's a fucking ponzi, he just wants to justify his practice of trying to incite others to send money in so he can get a share of the funds stolen from them.

That's why he's proven to be an untrustworthy scumbag and that is why other forum members should be made aware of that fact.

This topic is heavy on talk about requirements..
Staff (Mitchell) said there is none.

Here is one for you...................... AGE.

/end of discussion.