Bitcoin Forum

Unless you were an early Bitcoin miner, everyone could be far better off and more wealthy by abandoning BTC and switching to some random turdcoin.  The problem here is, so many altcoins exist, either with invalid security models or negligble feature differences from Bitcoin, that there can never be convergence on which turdcoin the crowd should abandon BTC for and switch to.  

The next problem is, even if by some miracle of gawd this actually did happen, you would be degrading all credibility of your own crypto as a store of value at the same time.  If a random turdcoin could pass or even get close to Bitcoin, it would mean that at any time your new coin could just as easily be overthrown and go to zero.  This means the only logical move is likely to go with BTC or just stay out of the game period.

Distributed systems like Bitcoin aren't based on perfection, they're based on tradeoffs.  For instance, you could remove mining to save energy and create a closed loop, recursive, PoS system, but without the external entropy of mining, you now have a permissioned ledger and not a real decentralized currency.  It has no real fault or state recovery since it needs to reference the parts that have already failed in order to continue.  With Bitcoin PoW, there really is no terminal failure unless the cryptography itself becomes compromised.  That's why Bitcoin is more valuable than all the alternative methods you see.  A global economy can't go from working to dead at the drop of a hat with no way to fix it.

This means, yes, your Borgcoin is probably not going to be worth shit.

The real kicker.

Sure. 

Wanna know something else?  Your bitcoin is probably not going to be worth shit either, one day.  Same with every currency, it rises, falls, becomes obsolete, and dies.  What's important is selling your borgcoin for the next form of currency before it becomes worthless.

Of course altcoins won't beat bitcoin, that's why there called altcoins.  But you can still make money/btc off them, and that's why people use them.  Pretty sure 99% of altcoin users know that their coin isn't gonna 'beat' bitcoin, but they still make a profit using their alts in the short term.

Well Roach, i can't see anything to argue with LOL

Spoetnik Approved™

Bitcoin has first mover's advantage and build a solid user base. But it lags behind other altcoins in development or improvement. Many other altcoins has greatly supplemented it with new useful features and real life applications, like ETH, Maid, FCT etc. If Bitcoin is like this forever, I bet it will fail in the end.

I'm sure the first company to ever issue stock said to investors, "But if we fail, no one will ever buy a stock again!"

Adapt or die.  ;)

Eth adopting PoS makes it a permissioned ledger and not an actual decentralized currency as mentioned in the original post.  It also can't scale to be anything more than a proof of concept with no commercial viability.  It's not progression, it's regression:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1361602.0

Factom is a consensus ripoff of Bitshares except turned into a completely centralized company.  I don't know why the coin even exists.  They should have just opened a building for BTC services.

Maidsafe...the only thing I don't know enough about to comment on.  Haven't kept up with it's development.  I have yet to see anything that's an actual threat to Bitcoin so far though.


I knew a random Moneroer would show up eventually.  It's possible Monero or Zcash will occupy some type of niche market, but the anon wars of incrementalism would have to end first, and I'm not really seeing how that's going to happen.  You would need to subscribe to four ideas for Monero to really do something:

1)  Smooth's claim that currency is the killer app of the blockchain (likely plausible)
2)  Anonymity is a mandatory feature set of that app (less plausible)
3)  Governments would not make the anon currency extremely difficult to use while allowing BTC instead, crippling the anon currency market cap
4)  The need to believe on-chain anonymity would be useful in a clearing/settlement network.

If your key feature is not utilized in the likely evolution of the network, you're relegated back to the niche market.  That niche market could be worth billions of dollars though, so I guess it's all relative.  BTC on the other hand could go to trillions as a settlement layer.  There's just not an overwhelming need to make Bitcoin obsolete and switch when both coins operate roughly the same in the end game.  Ring signatures will likely block many further on-chain scaling options to boot.  So yea, it could be valuable, but likely not a threat to Bitcoin.

Why is your argument that cryptocurrency can't survive without Bitcoin, "Monero is a niche coin."? (and that's paraphrasing for the rare literalist who will assume I'm making a direct quotation when reading the quoted material above would lead most sophisticated readers to realize that it was paraphrasing).

When I got into cryptocurrency, there was a belief that Bitcoin was anonymous enough and Bitcoin held mid-90% of total cryptocurrency market cap--I'm not saying the two are related BTW, just issuing two facts of the time. Today Bitcoin accounts for low-70% of total cryptocurrency market cap and the Evolution/BTC-e fiasco showed that Bitcoin was not anonymous enough (at least not enough to avoid taint).

My point about stocks is that no one company is big enough to rule the stock market anymore than any one cryptocurrency is big enough to rule cryptocurrency. Bitcoin has some stupendous flaws, and if unproven Eth can get to 1 billion, an actual fungible currency can get to 1 billion.

I'm not against Bitcoin, but listening to Bitcoin supremacist angle and rail against altcoins as if Bitcoin was sacrosanct and untouchable, is to say the least, a bit much. Especially considering that Bitcoin may prove the niche coin (a kind of digital gold perhaps) and the discovery period of cryptocurrency may end with a coin (or maybe more) with substantial marketcaps larger than the coin that was first, but not so adaptable, and certainly not the limitless in its potential.

My guess is that while Eth, XMR, and other coins get auditioned by the market, we will see an even greater shift in the marketcap than the one that took place over the last year. Would it be that surprising if Bitcoin's market cap was in the ten of billions five years from now, but held less than 20% of the overall market cap? Maybe, but I would have never though it would be below 80% a year ago.

Came to that same conclusion about BTC, because trying to mine it only cost me FIAT.

IMO,
here are the feature difference that will define the Last Coin Standing.
1.  It will be Proof of Stake, where the coin has it own intrinsic value because of its ability to reproduce more.
reason : Proof of Work is a failed ecosystem as it will always end up in the hands of the elite (that can afford to keep upgrading asics)

2.  Plus it has to have a minimum of 15 days before 1st stake and a minimum block time speed 1½ minutes or lower.
reason : Coins that allow blocks to stake in 9 days and less , give an unfair staking advantage to the rich as they can actually block the poor from being able to stake.

3.  Coin has to have a use outside of the Crypto World as a direct form of Barter for materials & services in the real & virtual worlds.

4.  Coin has to have an interest rate at least 5% but less than 11% per year.
reason : 5% makes it a competitor to stock dividends , over 11% and it will have trouble adding value to keep the price was falling.

That is my opinion, and I will even go so far as telling you the coin that in the end will succeed over BTC and any that follow.
ZEIT will be the Major coin over all.
reason : ZEIT is not a get rich quick scheme, it is an undertaking to give everyone a virtual resource for direct barter Free from the Shenanigans of the Corrupt that Pretend to Govern but in reality merely exploit the entire Human Race.

Here is the main difference, ZEIT has a Growing Force , know as The ZEIT Knights , whose very act of coming together to make a difference , will in fact change the fabric of monetary reality as we know it.

As a ZEIT Knight , I care nothing for FIAT, nothing for BTC , and nothing for LTC, all are only an ends to a means to make ZEIT Strong enough to repair this damaged world.

As far as the concern ( coin value going to zero ) , the Knights will Never Allow that to Happen!

Example:
Right Now All of the Coins are like kids playing a game of chicken by swimming out as far as possible, and the last kid that is farthest out wins as the others lose strength and faith in their chances of winning and give up and return to shore.

@ZEIT we understand that this is our Last Chance to Stop the already underway Dystopian reality before it engulfs us.
So we're not competing like the others saving our strength to swim back to shore if we fail like the others,  
We are marshalling everything we are and we're are going to make it to the other side no matter what the others do including BTC, too much depends on us , failure is not an option.

Time will show you , if I speak the Truth or just the ramblings of an ancient mind.

 8)

This doesn't apply to my coin under development, because I eliminate mining-for-profit, but I don't eliminate mining. Every user mines. Nevermind that monsterer and others do not understand yet why this is secure.

In intend to turn ASIC miners into door stops.


A real programmer with million end user software experience can do it. These crypto nerds (e.g. Bitcoin Core devs) and 20-year olds with no such experience, obviously can not accomplish it.


No in my case it would mean the widespread mass adoption has been achieved and nothing else can then challenge it.

Unfortunately for Bitcoin and the other altcoins, I suddenly got healthy due to a miraculous multi-herbal boiled leaves tea named "Pito-Pito" by JC Herbal Products in Bukidnon. Any one with any kind of disease, this is what you need. Looks and tastes like Robitussin cough syrup.


The solution is to make mining not profitable, but retain mining and expand it to all users of the coin. Couple this with a microtransaction design and widespread use case on a popular social network designed specifically for this purpose, so there is enough mining hashrate to render botnets ineffective.


Lack of scaling is a form of terminal failure. As it devolves into centralization, the vested interests strangle it.

I need to get back to work.

This forum has turned into a pile of nonsense from a few trolls pumping ETH shit from numerous Newbie and purchased accounts. The mod does nothing to stop this Sybil attack on the forum, thus rendering the forum entirely useless for serious people such as myself.

Bye mprep!

@kiklo
There is nor will there ever be a fair system.
I seen a science show that outlined the scientific mathematical formula that was found
There is an algo or mathematical equation to Money.
IT ALWAYS ENDS UP BELONGING TO THE RICH

The algo i think was like steam from heated water.
The money flow up's and ends up in the rich peoples hands..
This is witnessed in every aspect of humanity in our entire history in every civilization.
This is a FACT !

So that does in fact apply to crypto.. YOU WILL BE PARTED WITH YOUR MONEY IF YOU KEEP TRADING.

Stats right now show the Distribution of money crystal clear.. Google it !

Why am i saying this to YOU ?

Proof of work..
The desire to "game" the system for an advantage is and always will be present.
Satoshi came up with the BEST way to solve this problem so far.
What came later is not an improvement (IPO's or IPO's+ POS)
That is regression and a massive step backwards from the fundamental equality of POW.

When CPU miners were out for Prime Coin or Quark all guys did is go an rent CPU server farms.
So far we are not working on the problems that NEED to be addressed.. such as Distribution.
Launching an IPO then meddling with it after the fact is no proper solution
and ends up being worse that what Satoshi set up for us.

And lets make this perfectly clear here boys & girls..
Just because you WANT to keep launching thousands of new coins (instead of working on an existing one)
AND you can't think of a better way to make the Initial distribution work
doesn't mean you all should just say fuck it.. let's launch an IPO.
Get it ?
You guys are saying we -HAVE- to make another coin see we have no choice..
Actually you do have a choice.. don't make another coin until you can improve on POW !

And NO you don't NEED to make another coin either. (no meaningful new feature was ever made)
All of you want another coin so you can work on it and quit your day job.
A product or service's existence SHOULD hinge entirely on it's NEED !
There is no reason to provide a solution to a problem that does not exist.

Further more i have made many points today on why IPO's are bad but here is yet ANOTHER one..
They were added here with techno jargon like "White Paper" trying to use pro stock terms.
When that Stock market traders got wind of crypto they brought that bullshit with them here.
Only problem is.. it does not apply to Crypto.
You all can't keep crying some altcoin is like a stock.
The point of these are suppose to be a currency not a stock.
If the currency is a failure (no adoption / usage) then it winds up being a digital pyramid scheme !
Most of you prob were not even alive when the infamous water filter scam was going around in the 80's
I was and remember it clearly.. most of you are kids that know sweet fuck all but come here and run your mouth.
Unless you did research like i have on Pyramid / Ponzi schemes then you don't know anything about them.
If all you know about them is from learning here your an ignorant Crypto trader.
Leave the Bitcointalk scam bubble and get educated in the REAL WORLD !

---

And after that last paragraph i still did not make my planned point (i found another one while typing LOL)
Which is..
IPO / ICO coins can not be legit or even considered more secure or less exploitable because of one real simple fact.
This is NOT the stock market !
This is a FREE MARKET ..with NO laws.
I should not have to explain that further it speaks for itself..

Do you cheerleaders here grasp how many players in crypto running coins or exchanges or pump groups or forums etc
Would be in jail if we had the same laws as the Stock exchange ?
Martha Stewart an old lady that baked pies on TV did jail time for "Insider Trading"
Now imagine how many guys here deserve to be in jail !

An IPO is sketchy and often sleazy enough as it is in the REAL stock market
..then take away the laws that are applied by the SEC and the FBI etc and what do we have ?
Bitcointalk Scam IPO central  :D

There is a reason why the SEC issued a warning about Crypto coins calling them scams.. 90% are !
I was doing research early this year when i stumbled onto their press release by accident (same day it was posted)
I then posted it in the Bitcoin section where everyone said it was good news AHAHHAHAHHA
It even mentioned an unnamed forum which was totally obvious they meant Bitcointalk.
Read it yourselves.. https://www.sec.gov/investor/alerts/ia_virtualcurrencies.pdf (Issued Jan 4th 2016)

EDIT:
TPTB_need_war
I feel your frustration and i doubt we agree on all things either but i would rather
have us all talk like adults and work on it over time than have childish trolling.
I see the conflict as a method of us all refining the crypto scene over time..
Each input from all of you collectively makes it what it is.
And having some of the smarter guys leave is a loss for us collectively.
@TPTB_need_war, whether i agree with you on stuff or not i KNOW you are very smart and hope you stay ;)

woah woah woah spoeder, 90% is high praise coming from you.

ty for link havent seen that one yet

Quantity of stored wealth is not the point of the Knowledge Age. The point is the degrees-of-freedom in the velocity of money.

You all are barking up the wrong tree.

I will teach you how it is done.

Point of Contention,
In Proof of Work the coin's value really has no value as it has no reproductive capability built in. The Value is in the ASICS that produce the coin and allow it to function,
time has proven , and their value decreases every 2 weeks. As the small time productions have discovered , it is no longer affordable to be in an ASICS arms race.
At some point only 1 or 2 will control the asics, due to ASICS & Electricity costs.

Satoshi idea only worked before ASICS enter the scene, he did not foresee that, and that forever destroyed the idea of anyone being able to mine and reproduce his coin.
Proof of Stake fixes that PoW flaw, by placing the value of the ASICS inside the coin itself.
So all of the millions that get wasted on hardware , that is outdated in a year, flow into a coin that can be turned on every 20 days for a few hours and generate profit.

In Proof of Stake with a low stake rate, selling the Coins as Profit decreases your ability to make more, but can earn you profit on a continuous basis as long as managed property . You don't have to buy new hardware every year to get the same amount of Profit, in fact the more you hold the more Valuable you make the coin.
Another Reason for the Knights was to keep the amount of ZEIT split up , so that a handful never control the entire amount.

And in your point , the Rich get richer, is because a handful control the entire amount, but once they control it all and the poor and middle class have very little access to it,  they cause what we see in the US now,
The Poor will move to an Alternative ways of barter , and ignore the US$ since they have no real access to it and that also decreases the Velocity of Money.
example:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weimar_Republic

What the rich forget is their wealth is built on the poor and middle class like a Pyramid.

Rich Hoard the wealth as they are currently doing,
The Poor & the Middle class leave the system entirely finding alternatives means or currency to barter.
Which Now changes the Pyramid.


Some examples, The Car Manufacturers prices are so high , Poor people at best get a used car, next choice a Mope-head, or ride the bus and final choices
riding a bicycle or walking. This destroys money velocity , no car , no car insurance, no gas needed, which also hurts insurance companies , auto repair shops, and oil companies plus anyone that performs a support service for these companies.
And what all of these companies have in common , is they cut jobs which decrease the middle class & poor support of the rich even more, it is a downward spiral,
that results in the end of a FIAT currency, which is what we are seeing now.
NIRP (Negative Interest Rate Policy) will be their last failed attempt to save a dying FIAT system.

 8)

FYI:
The whole problem with the RICH is they act like a Parasite on a Host Body,
when they become too dominant of a host the host will die, and the rich along with it.
Farming is a good example, in the old days you used manure and tilled in grasses and wood ashes into the soil which fed the micro organisms & earth worms and this would increase the soil's fertility so your plants would be abundant.
Now they dump the cheapest of N P K only , and the soil is depleted of the micro nutrients which make healthy plants, which is why their input costs cause so many farmers to become bankrupt and your produce is less healthy every year.
Which less nutrients makes people sicker and frailer , I remember 65 years olds racing 8 and 9 years olds , just playing around.
Now a days most 40 years old people can't even run, the current parasitical system is on the verge of collapse and it is killing people we all care about in the process.      

FYI:
On your Point :
The algo i think was like steam from heated water.
The money flow up's and ends up in the rich peoples hands.
Problem is they hold it,
the Knights will be returning it thru Charity , Tithing , and in paying workers to achieve making this world into a better place and in other ways.
Therefore keeping the cycle moving until the Knights are no longer needed and the system maintains itself.

Who said it mattered to Satoshi in the long run if it ended up like that later ?
What makes you think he never considered the idea that ASICS could and WOULD be made ? ..eventually.
I love how everyone goes nuts assuming what Satoshi wanted / planned / thought etc

I don't care..

Look at Prime Coin's launch..

Does it matter if the 2nd half of the coins distribution is dominated by a hardware arms race ?
Would it better for ME to have every BTC ever made at once on launch ?

The monetary amount is suppose to be added over time ?
Not dropped on the world all at once ?

ETH comes out and some guy name "John Smith" has all of the coins..
Handed to Poloniex who operates in secrecy as a Centralized Govt cooperated entity who collects user ID's
Somehow doing that is BETTER in your minds ?

Exchanges should be closed.. ALL of them
The side show of trading is too much of a self destructive diversion from the real goal.. Currency Adoption
It could be that the inherent way in which this shit works is doomed to failure.
No matter what effort gets pushed forward it gets warped into a greedy free for all for digital token trading profits.

I have thought the most out of ways to get a currency out and used with out exchange trading.
Shit heads on Poloniex (for example) desperately trying to profit from some shitty ass IPO coin
are NOT helping anything in Crypto.. quite the opposite they are killing and maybe making it nearly impossible
for Crypto (in a similar form as it is now) to ever be accepted by the main stream public.

You guys all forgot what it's suppose to be about.
- Decentralized
- Open Source
- Currency

When you launch another IPO digital token (the 7,000th) and yeah there is THAT many !
And its' primary use in REALITY ends up being 95% a token used to trade on Centralized security risk exchanges
i'd say we failed miserably.
? See how that is a circular cycle ?
Who benefits ? Centralized exchanges and the coin dev's who cut themselvs in and the greedy traders.
Does ANY of that bullshit bring us closer to world wide digital currency adoption
and the replacement of Fiat ?

Either your shitty ass Altcoin beats Bitcoin and replaces Fiat or it's a fucking failure.

I say cut off the little circle of greedy idiot traders.. cut them away from the scene and let them float off like an island.
Fuck 'em all ..we don't need them ..they are a drain to Crypto and bring nothing positive.
STOP PANDERING TO THEM.

Either you agree with what i just said ? ..OR..
you think Satoshi's intention was nothing more than to Launch a digital pyramid scheme for profit.

I believe Satoshi's original intention was to return control of money to the people and remove control from the Governments, which is why I believed he worked so hard at hiding his real identity. But never met the man , so can't be 100% certain of that.

I do agree with you that endless IPOs are just a way to scam people, but freedom of choice means letting the stupid commit dumb acts as long as they don't cause physical harm to another. You would think after 2 or 3 IPO scams , they would get a clue.

ZEIT is
- Decentralized
- Open Source
- I prefer to think of it as a Virtual Resource instead of a Currency

Exchanges are a necessary requirement, similar to a marketplace , where people trade goods and services, it also helps set the trading value of an item.
But if you have an idea of a way to replace the exchanges, I am more than open to hear it.  :)

 8)

Is the entire thing still hinged on the fact that it fails if the algo becomes optimized by over 2x speedup on specialized hardware to create identical pool centralization?  Even if you believe it's possible to create such a thing, the fact that you need to launch the coin and have it exist for years before the answer is readily apparent makes it a very unattractive target for adoption, because at any time the fundamentals can just completely disappear when some guy like Wolf slightly optimizes the hashing function...

In another thread, both Smooth and I seemed to feel this more traditional PoW-mail, send your own transactions approach would be the Occam's Razor solution for Satoshi and already would have been explored if it was viable.  Instead, Bitcoin went the more Rube Goldberg approach because the other methods weren't deemed feasible.

No.

The PoW doesn't need to be done on the payer's hardware. Payer (or payee) can pay a miner to do the PoW. The decentralized control (of which chain to mine on and which validators to trust & statistically verify) still resides with those paying for the PoW.

I do put a lot of effort into making a new hash that can't be optimized well on ASICs. So that everyone can get near equal access to efficient hardware. I think I have improved on Cryptonote's hash function. I wish I had more time to evaluate tromp's and other asymmetric hash functions (should probably buy tromp a Kill-A-Watt meter).


If I succeed on marketing and implementation, the people adopting and mining the coin won't have any idea about crypto currency nor mining. This is a very big challenge and I don't want anyone to expect anything. The chance of failure is much greater than the chance of success. But I am not asking any of you to take the risk with me. Hopefully if by the time you hear about it, it is because it will already be successful and it spread by word-of-mouth back to the forum.


By that time, it won't help Wolf, because the hashrate and unprofitability will be too great. If you are going to attack, you have to do it early near launch.

The flaw in my design, is the network doesn't spend more on security than makes sense for the value of the transactions on the network. So it requires the transactions to scale up significantly in order to have high security. A predominately HODL-er coin can't use my design. Thus Bitcoin could not use my design.

Also my design centralizes validation. But that is okay because every crypto currency ends up with centralized validation and control, as it scales up. At least my design keeps the control decentralized at any scale of transactions.


The NSA and the Deep State who created Bitcoin wanted a centralizing algorithm. They wanted the powerlaw distribution of wealth to be in control. Never would they actually want one-computer, one-vote. They put propaganda like that in the Bitcoin white paper to fool us.

Everyone here wants profit in the form of fiat. They don't give a shit about being on some bleedin' edge of tech or any some such nonsense. This scene is gambling, 100%. From the lowliest shitcoin to bitcoin, the name of the game is making MONEY. Taking money from the stupid and giving it to the assholes.
Damn, sounds like life for the past many thousands of years to me.

Any good programmer who has remained productive and not tried hard to screw up his life (and health), has more money than he really needs.

The important goal to such a person should be to work on something interesting and which can give back to society happiness, creativity, jobs, productivity, and diversity.

This is the reason I am not interested to create a crypto currency that has no adoption being merely a ticker symbol and marketing for inciting greater fool theory gambling.

Of course the speculators will find a way to get at my coin if I launch one. And they will serve a free market role. I can't stop the free market. The difference is I plan to have significant user adoption which must exist BEFORE YOU DISCOVER THE TOKEN, so that it is the real deal in terms of a for-use token. And I will make no promotions nor give any speculators any reason to think they should base their expectations for gains on any actions of any entity or developers. Because I am not creating investment securities. I am creating a social network and a token for use on that social network (and beyond). And you all have confirmed that speculators aren't basing their expectations for gains on any fundamentals thus efforts of the developers. Instead they are basing their expectations on promotion and hype. Since I won't be doing promotion or hype targeted to investors of a crypto currency, they won't be basing their expectations on any particular promotion or hype. Their resultant free market speculation is based on their assumptions about the value of for-use tokens of the sort I want to create. I will not promote nor promise any one any gains. The for-use tokens will exist to facilitate microtransactions on the social network.

I will make no effort to get my token listed on any centralized exchanges and I am happy if it takes as long as possible before being listed on a centralized exchange. I am working on decentralized exchange.

Making it more difficult for get-rich-in-a-week speculators is a goal of mine. Long-term HODLers will find their way to accumulate.

P.S. I have been working on the logo for the new 6 letter domain name for the social network. I am very pleased with the name I thought of and also after some horrible logo designs were submitted to me, I sketched my own on paper and I think it is quite good. Now waiting for a professional graphic designer to complete the final logo and they also confirmed my latest sketch is good. My logo is superior to Ethereum's and I am only spending $200 (plus my time), not $18 million.

Ethereum didn't spend $18 million on a logo but I get your point.

Soon alts will me no more, big money is taking over so you should hurry up. 

Good luck!

TPTB, I saw on one of your closed accounts that you are BCX.  Is this true?  The original BCX?  Thx.

Maybe his point was that the only useful thing Ethereum project has produced is the logo.  :P

Bitcoin might have been decentralised in the past, but now the mining is controlled by about seven Chinese guys who can do deals in a room, with the added vulnerability of being behind a firewall and under an authoritarian govt that cracks down on anyone who challenges them.

True decentralisation would be mining spread evenly around the world, so if some of them got taken out, the others would survive and continue. PoS at least means that the staking wallets are decentralised, which is an improvement on what has happened to BTC.

That's not quite true though is it? Here's the latest on uses of ethereum:

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ethereum-powered-augur-brings-its-beta-microsoft-azures-blockchain-cloud-1549630

That was satire because many people were accusing me of being BCX back when he threatened to attack Monero and I tried to figure out if there was a technical hole to attack from.

My technical investigation is how I first realized that Cryptonote is theoretically susceptible to combinatorial unmasking (and especially from overlapping rings).

The BCX incident is one I would like to forget. I was sincere but it didn't really reflect well on me that BCX was apparently lying so he could short Monero (or that is the conjecture). I did not short Monero.

Your counter-example is entirely broken (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1393703.msg14219491#msg14219491).

I've never understood this line of reasoning. If an altcoin passes BTC in marketcap, it, by definition, *won't* be some random altcoin, it'll be a legit altcoin. You seem to be begging the question by describing it as a "random turdcoin" passing or even getting close to Bitcoin. If it passes Bitcoin it'll be the rare, legitimate altcoin, not some random one -- one that actually offers something valuable that Bitcoin isn't offering.

So, it actually *wouldn't* mean that at any time this new coin could *just as easily* be overthrown and go to zero, because it *wouldn't* be easy for an altcoin to pass Bitcoin, and, if one does, it could very well be based on something fundamental as to *why* it passes Bitcoin, and Bitcoin also wouldn't necessarily have to go to zero in the process.

The very label of Alt coin is a way to try and degrade all other coins in a PR view compared to BTC.

The simple fact is BTC is the equivalent to a Ford Model T (Great in it's early days)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/1910Ford-T.jpg

But BTC is no Match for the NEW Coins in comparison,
http://blog.caranddriver.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/lede-v2.3-876x535.jpg

It is Foolhardy to believe one of the NEW coins in Time will not overtake BTC.  :)

 8)

You're trying to pump a $50,000 market cap, PoS clone coin and calling Bitcoin "the model T"...

You can make a Profit with my coin, try making a profit with your BTC.
My coin has a blockspeed of 30 seconds your BTC can takes hours to confirm a transaction, no contest.  ;)
BTC requires enough electricity for a small country, my coin can be run as a minimized app on a already running PC.
My Coin does not require New ASICS be purchased every year.


FYI:
ZEIT"S Marketcap is bouncing between $150,000 and $500,000 marketcap for the past few days.
ZEIT briefly touched  $ 1,067,604,802 , so we Broke CoinMarketCap Volume Reporting.
ZEIT would have been in 2nd Place directly under BTC.  
ScreenShots included
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=487814.msg13636387#msg13636387


FYI2:
All Proof of Stake coins have intrinsic value, due to the factor they can make more of themselves.
Proof of Work Coin have no intrinsic value ,
1. because they can not make more of theirselves
2. Without ASICS they can not even move , so all of the value is in a ASICS that becomes Worthless in a year due to increased difficulty.
Sorry No Profit to be made with PoW coins in the long run, I even go so far as saying PoW is the Coin's world version of Negative Interest Rates Policy.

LOL

I know Funny Right, all of that Logic , and all you can do is laugh.   :D
Well at least you aren't the crying type since you now Know PoW will eventually collapse.


 8)

FYI: You remind me of this guy.

Many alts are more efficient at doing what they do than BTC would be at integrating them or adding them as a service layer. The whole Bitcoin is king argument hinges on bitcoin's market being so big that no one would miss the efficiency (or novelty, such novelty) garnered by using alternatives, but Bitcoin's market is neither big enough to warrant this "king once and for all time" label (see Bitcoin's marketcap versus gold and fiat), nor is the efficiency we are talking about slight enough for it to not matter (see hoops you have to jump through to anomize BTC through a mixer or a privacy coin).

Bitcoin has yet to rise out of the speculation stage, and until it does, all bets on "one coin to rule them all" are off. Not that mass adoption alone has secured any technology enough to where it is safe from cheaper more efficient methods. Instead of writing about a prisoner dilemma that doesn't really exist (why should cryptocurrency fail if Bitcoin fails or isn't top dog?) the Bitcoin maximalists (supremacists) should find those coins that do things more efficiently (cheaper) and diversify--they'll have hedged themselves and avoided faulty logic that wastes everyone's time (you first need to determine that altcoins can't survive without Bitcoin to make the prisoner's dilemma--you can't assume it into being). And every day an unproven Altcoin sits near a billion dollar marketcap, the less and less plausible this argument becomes.

Enough fiat to Altcoin exchanges (maybe even one) and the tether that holds Bitcoin atop the cryptocurrency food chain is gone. How likely is this to happen, about as likely as someone staying anonymous to omnipresent secret-hording intelligence.

100% agree.......................................................................... .................with the LOL

i agree with much of generalizethis' reply.

though people lose sight of whats trying to be achieved with developing a p2p currency.

trust and adoption is critical for a currency to be successful over and above any innovative bells and whistles. if people just jump to what ever is percieved as the latest innovative crypto of the day/week/month then it makes it very difficult for any to get sustained decent adoption.

this could be used as the argument to sticking to bᴉtcoᴉn; so crypto can achieve decent adoption, however i think its naive to think bᴉtcoᴉn is the ideal one for this purely based on it being (well in many peoples eye) the first.

Totally Understandable, you PoW miners and ASICS salesman are the last of your Breed,
with your numbers dwindling , it is best for you to huddle together and reminisce about the good old days with you made fiat with your ASICs.
Unlike the past 2 Years where the PoW mining has not even broke even with your ASICS & electricity costs.

I entered the BTC market a few years ago when BTC was $450 for 1 BTC, it only took a few months of mining to realize , I was losing fiat and would never even break even , so since the PoW miners always talked that I could make Fiat by mining , I tried again with LTC, only took 1 month to realize that was also a failing venture.
By then I realize you were a bunch of fools or liars to keep promoting a failing PoW system.

So I took one last try with Proof of Stake , Purchased ZEIT for 22 litoshi , today I can sell for over 175 litoshi , if I had to sell it now , or I can just sell my stake and keep my principle or wait for an even higher price.  For the mathematically challenged 175/22 = 7.95 x my original investment , so in less than 2 years my PoS coins has been a better investment for me that any of the PoW crap you guys offer. Plus there is so little market resistance to our coin going up , it will be at least double what it is now next year if not more.  :D

 8)

FYI:
BTC was $450 , when I entered Crypto and what is it now after ~2 years
Today it was $417.51 , and that is high compared to earlier in the year.
Keep Lying to yourself that PoW is the future, and you will LOL yourself right into the poor house.   

seriously i wasn't countering (or caring) about any of your arguments either way, i was merely LOL'ing at the utter stupidity of that one quoted statement  :-*


(for the record i'm no miner, nor a fan of pow or pos, i'm here because i'm a big fan of the possibility of a genuine p2p currency, which imo is yet to exist).

Very motivational. Thank you for sharing.

So you have no concept of mining , not a fan of PoW or PoS,
Only stupid thing I see is you wasting everyone's time, by commenting without any knowledge.
At the very least , you should give some details of this genuine p2p currency that does not exist yet or have you given that 0 Thought also.

 8)


FYI:
Intrinsic Value
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/i/intrinsicvalue.asp
PoS Coin's Ability to Reproduce more of it's own kind does give it an intrinsic value, that a sterile coin or token does not have.

Easy Agricultural comparison like the Intrinsic Value of a Seed
http://x-fin.com/stocks/usa/SEED

And for the PoW comparison
The ASICS holds the Intrinsic Value not the coins they produce.
Since they can be used to reproduce other PoW coins of the same algo.
Problem, their value drops due to increasing difficulty which kills their profit potential.
At most switching to newer PoW coins with the same algo is the only real way to get more than a year's use of an ASICS .

just because i'm not a fan of such mining doesn't mean i have no knowledge of or haven't tested it, so don't jump to such conclusions.

i've been around alternative currencies a long time, i've plenty of concept of mining having mined btc/ltc etc early on. i've helped dev and tested plenty of cryptos, and have a ton of pos coins., i'm not a fan of pow or pos because i've got a pretty good concept of them ;)

this seriously in itself is a wtf statement; "All Proof of Stake coins have intrinsic value, due to the factor they can make more of themselves."

and i think you should seriously rethink it, or most would switch off to the rest of your ravings.

If the line is over your head
All Proof of Stake coins have intrinsic value, due to the factor they can make more of themselves
Ok, but don't insult it , if you have no logic to prove it false.

Ravings, there you go with insults again, seems all you have is speculation and accusations.
I sorry but you have not posted anything that shows any thought processes as of yet , try again.

Have you got any thoughts about the cryptocoin that does not yet exist or was that just another empty thought?


 8)

At least you have seen the term intrinsic value , maybe you just forgot its meaning.
But hey as long as no Aussie tariffs are put on your Chinese dealings , you are not really worried about it.  ;)




 8)

FYI:
Funny it makes it look like you agree no PoW coins has intrinsic value, only speculation.
Which would fit with my statement the value is in the ASICS for PoW,
Can you not correlate the reference between a seed's intrinsic value and a PoS coin intrinsic value,
maybe you have a specific learning disability only in regards to Proof of Stake if you can't see it.

kiklo, i think you're missing the point why i LOL'd at your statement.

"All Proof of Stake coins have intrinsic value, due to the factor they can make more of themselves"

is suggesting that the mechanism for POS coins having any intrinsic value is due to the fact they can make more of themselves; that's saying something that's valueless has value if it can produce more of its valueless self  ???

seeds aren't valueless even if they can't make more of themselves. seeds have intrinsic value over an above the ability to reproduce. having value already make them able to increase their intrinsic value if they can create even more.

Smart.  You go, girl!  :)

Ok , i see where we have the problem,

Just because the market does not recognize their value does not mean that the intrinsic Value is not there.
And just because it has no value in your eyes, does not mean it does not have value in someone else's eyes.
I see its value, and to me it is important from a profit standpoint.

It is like this, oil had very little market value, until the automobile was created.
However it's intrinsic value was always there, it just the market was unable to utilize it at the time.

PoS can make more of their selves and move transactions at a much cheaper cost than PoW, for me this is an intrinsic value, not shared by PoW,
however if you can't see it No Worries, as with oil the Market valuation will catch on sooner or later.


 8)

FYI:
This is just to clearify not to pick at,
even the GMO Corn seeds with terminator technology , do produce at least 1 stalk with 3 or more ears of corn, so they do produce more than was purchased. 

The biggest problem with PoS is that it's not secure.  Until that issue is resolved discussing value is pointless since any real value will be stolen or destroyed, rendering that coin/asset high risk and worthless.

Ok ,
Prove it Crash ZEIT using one of your Tactics,

No Talk, Actions , prove it to everyone and end the speculation.

No Theories actually Real Word Evidence.
No offense but until you actually do it, it is kind of like saying
Sounds possible but I would have to see it to believe it.   :D

 8)

FYI:
Personally I hope you try corning the market tactic.  :D

FYI2:
Would you like to agree on a specific time and tactic?

FYI3:
Discussing Value is pointless.
That is silly, Value is always determined at specific time with specific criteria by different people,
but by your analogy BTC has no value because the PoW 51% attack tactic currently has no Defense. ;)

http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-mining-detente-ghash-io-51-issue/
Funny today Ghash is only at 1%.
https://blockchain.info/pools

When you reply to a thread trying to shill for some altcoin nobody has ever heard of and you constantly spam the word "Zeit" in bold letters over and over like a 4am infomercial it just makes everyone think you're ultra desperate to try and unload your proof of poverty coin bags on the first random fool you can find.  You might want to take some type of different approach and not assume everyone reading your posts is a 10yr old.

When a Group of You SPAM FORUM after FORUM, with these lies.

Hey ,
Buy whatever coin you want, but cut out the lies above.
PoS is easily as secure as PoW if not more, quit spreading fake PR and I 'll stop pointing out PoW flaws every time you do.
You're just not used to someone making valid points that destroy your argument.  :)


 8)

I think he misread POS as Proof Of Shill.  ;)

Since you are a hopeless Monero shill, whatever.

 Hey , you should disable your web cam.  :D
http://cdn.bgr.com/2015/11/jimmy-kimmel-chewbacca-harrison-ford.png

 8)

Wrong movie.   ;D

LOL,
That ok, it is still Funny.  :D

 8)

FYI:
And with that I take my leave,
r0ach you may resume your fudding now.

https://i.imgur.com/52S6fPM.png

Maidunsafecoin?  Dashtothetrash?  New Poverty Movement?

Saw that...we're in a downtrend right now, that's for sure. No hot hand last forever; neither does a hot market.

My own take on the thread subject is essentially a simple-man's take. Bitcoin was the first and the biggest, and has the greatest network effect. It's the latter point that explains why the big BTC is going to be #1 for a very, very long time.

Just look at what the network effect - plus being numba 1 - has done for the greenback. The "Death of the Dollar" has been predicted for decades by people who knew the vulnerabilities of a fractional-reserve system. Give me enough time in the long-tail section of Amazon, and I can dig up at least one book from the 1970s that explains why the greenback "is" on its last legs.

And yet, the mighty dollar keeps ticking along as the #1 currency in the world. How's that for a demonstration of the network effect?

It's much more simple than that.  The fact is, no altcoin has improved upon the consensus mechanism of Bitcoin.  In fact, PoS is actually a downgrade.  No alt has been able to improve upon scalability without becoming a permissioned ledger or federated chain either, then they're not even decentralized currencies anymore...

This is simply not true. The Cryptonote adaptive blocksize limit when combined with a tail emission as implemented in Monero is a major improvement in scalability over Bitcoin.

Edit: There is a lot more to Monero than anonymity.

I just classify Monero as Bitcoin w/ ring sigs.  The argument as to whether a plausible deniability anonymity set is critical to a functioning currency or not is a separate one.

This has nothing to do with ring signatures or anonymity.

Edit: It does not work in Bytecoin or most other Cryptonote coins with the exception of Aeon, because they do not have a tail emission or the tail emission is very small (DigitalNote). It could be implemented in Dogecoin because it has a tail emission. It could also be implemented in Freicoin (using demurrage)

From the research I've done, Bitcoin only needs to be able to reach 8-10MB blocks eventually to function as a digital checkbook type device accessible by middle/upper middle  class, 1st world nation inhabitants.  The whole dynamic block size issue isn't that big of a deal to me unless you believe Bitcoin can never fork to that size, but it's going to 3.2MB in 2017 already, so that doesn't seem to be the case to me.  As for the anonymity thing, I already said upthread it's possible Monero could go to billions in market cap, but if it did, Bitcoin would likely be in the trillions, hence, not "beating it".

While OP is correct in many ways i do have to say BTC could go wrong in a lot of ways (centralisation or bloat as big threats longterm for example). When BTC goes horribly wrong you're happy to hold vertcoin or such.

And then there are black swan events that can hardly be foretold so this is all idle talk in the end as nobody here has a reliable crystal ball to see the future.  

Alts always were and always will be where the innovation happens. Bitcoin can not exist without altcoins. I personally do look at crypto as a spectrum, a machine with a lot of cogs and wheels. Cryptos support each other in many ways often by accident or without the awareness of the many. It's not "this coin vs that coin"; it's "coins vs fiat"

Altcoins are part of bitcoins' ecosystem until bitcoin becomes part of the ecosystem of something bigger (which will be born among the alts) which hasn't happened yet and probably won't happen this or next year. Anyone who says he knows what the future for bitcoin holds further than 3 or 4 years into the future likely is a scammer and schould be avoided imo. There is no way of telling what might happen down the road.

There is only one thing 100% certain: the coin that could rival bitcoin will NOT be sold in a presale or ico ;)

Well, there ya go. One thing I'm sure of: over the long run, the only thing going for the leading alts is Bitcoin dragging them up with it. :D

In fact, we altcoineers are very lucky that "blockchain" is becoming the new fin-MBA buzzword - even if it grates a little on the ears like another buzzword did back in 1994 (https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=katie%20couric%20what%20is%20internet). Had "Bitcoin" become the buzzword, every alt would be permanently in its shadow in the same way that every other facial tissue is in the shadow of Kleenex^TM

Altcoins will die off once WAVES creates their platform.

Waves is no different than NXT, Qora, and all the other closed entropy, IPO, proof of stake, permissioned ledger scamcoins.  The purpose of mining in Bitcoin is to create a permanent two way peg, decentralized exchange.  The word "permanent" is the important part.  Without mining you have a permissioned ledger and not a decentralized currency.  You need mining + perpetual coin turnover via transaction fee as block reward or inflation (the former being the lesser evil), otherwise it's not a decentralized currency and becomes both a permissioned ledger and extortion scheme at the same time. 

IOTA, for example, has mining but abstracts block reward away from the mining process, making the open entropy of the system completely pointless and turning it into the same classification as a proof of stake coin.

They died off already because of sidechains and ETH. Not again please!   ::)

Sidechains have a long way to go, but their inherent use of being a seamless method of doing proof of burn BTC hard forks will probably be valuable in the future.

Can't believe an Ethbutter started a parody thread of this thread.  Actually, yes I can.