Bitcoin Forum

About BetKing:
https://betking.io is one of the oldest Bitcoin gambling sites, launched in April 2013, and has since grown to become the most trusted and one of the most popular Bitcoin gambling sites with over 397,000 Bitcoin wagered and earned over 7200 Bitcoin profit.

I am looking to make BetKing and Bitcoin gambling grow even bigger and inviting you to be part of it and share the success.

Stats:

• Launched April 2013
• 397,500 Bitcoin wagered
• 7258 Bitcoin profit
• 353,000,000 bets
• 8500 accounts

Why should I invest?
BetKing is one of the most well known Bitcoin gambling sites and has been the most profitable crowdfunded site with over 7200 Bitcoin profit in the past 2 years alone.

It has seen the most wagered volume of all other crowdfunded gambling sites, more than almost all others combined.

This popularity and profit has been from one game and very little marketing.
Our simple to play provably fair dice game.

We are looking to raise investment so we can develop more products including our own provably fair casino games such as blackjack, slots and roulette.
Funds will also go towards developing a sports betting platform, poker software as well as a host of other gambling related products and services.

Due to the success of BetKing and the previous crowdfunded platform I now have many contacts in the industry who are experts in each of these domains who we would work with to build the best products possible.
 
With your help we can market each of these products to grow BetKing into the leading Bitcoin gambling destination.

Note: BetKings bankroll was previously funded by crowdfunded investment which totalled 6000 Bitcoin. From the 1st of December BetKing will be privately funded and all current investors divested.

Shares:
BetKing will create 100,000,000 tokens (100 million) to to represent 100% shares of BetKing, currently owned fully by me.
No new tokens will be created.

30,000,000 (30%) of these tokens will be be sold to investors during the ICO period and distributed at the end of the fund raising period.

The remaining 70,000,000 (70%) will remain in the ownership of me as my 70% equity in BetKing.

The funds raised by selling these shares will be loaned by me interest free back to the company to use for expenses and bankroll.

Threshold: 2000 Bitcoin
If the crowdfunding campaign fails to reach the goal of 2000 Bitcoin invested all funds will be returned.

Early investor bonus:
Early investors will get a larger percentage of the shares from the crowdsale meaning their coins will have more weight or purchasing power towards the percentage of shares you receive.

Week 1 = 10% bonus - December 1st 2016 at 0:00 UTC to December 7th 2016 at 23:59:59 UTC.
Week 2 = 5% bonus - December 8th 2016 at 0:00 UTC to December 14th 2016 at 23:59:59 UTC.

Distribution:
ICO starts at December 1st 2016 at 0:00 UTC and ends at January 1st 2017 at 0:00 UTC.
After the ICO has ended, 30,000,000 shares will be distributed proportionately if the target of 2000 Bitcoin or more is raised.
E.g. if we collect 2000 BTC and your investment is 200 BTC, you'll receive 3,000,000 shares.

These shares will be added to your BetKing account where you will be able to trade with other members on the BetKing website.


Dividends:
We will pay dividends as a share of the total profit (revenue-expenses) generated by BetKing in Bitcoin directly to your BetKing account every 3 months if the total capital is greater than the 2000 Bitcoin loan.
You can withdraw your Bitcoin dividend payment instantly to your own wallet.
This may change to be more frequent, e.g. a month, after the first dividend payment.

For example:
Assume revenue from players losses were 300 Bitcoin in the first three months.
Imagine we paid 5 Bitcoin for fixed cost expenses, 10 Bitcoin on banner ads and 10 Bitcoin on developer contract.
After the 3 months we have 2000 (the initial loan) +300-5-10-10=2275.
275 profit.

So the investors from the ICO would get a dividend share of 82.5 (30% of 275) paid into their BetKing account.
I would be paid 192.5 (70%)

The business would have 2000 Bitcoin left in it from the intial loan.

Another example:
In 3 months players win 100 Bitcoin playing dice.
We paid 5 Bitcoin as fixed expenses (server, cloudflare etc).
We spent 10 Bitcoin on some banner ads.
We spent 10 Bitcoin on a contract developer.

After the 3 months we have 2000-100-5-10-10=1875.
-125 profit.

So there are no dividends to be paid as there was no profit in this time.

The business would have 1875 Bitcoin left in it and no dividends would be paid until this amount was over 2000 again.


What the funds be used for:
Most of the funds will be used for but are not exclusive to:

• Bankroll for players to bet against.
• Development of new products.
• Marketing

Exit Strategy:
If BetKing were to be closed for any reason or lost market share to where it stopped generating profit then the initial loan would be paid back to me and then any extra funds left in the business not paid out as dividends yet would be split 30% to investors and 70% to me.
Any assets including the software could be sold and 30% of the sale price distributed to investors.

HOWEVER if BetKing was forced to close suddenly within 3 months of the ICO then all existing funds in the business at that point would be used to pay investors back as close to their full initial investment as possible before I took any share.

There’s also the possibility in future for BetKing to be acquired by a bigger company in which investors will share 30% of the total sale price after the initial loan is paid back to me.

Proof of funds address:
https://blockchain.info/address/1FFweGFja9VGXXB11JA4eExZGGFaS5zjzj


How to buy shares:
To buy shares during the crowdsale period you need to sign up or login to https://betking.io and deposit the Bitcoin you wish to invest, or use the existing balance you have.
You should then visit the invest page which will be live on at the start date of the ICO and enter the amount of Bitcoin you wish to invest then click invest.

If you have any questions feel free to ask by posting here, private messaging or emailing support@betking.io.

Thanks

Dean
CEO BetKing.io

No info about bounty.

Good catch.

I have removed the bounties as we don't really need them like other ICO's might as we are well known and have a lot of previous bankroll investors who would probably be interested.

Do token can be  traded in the exchanger? or can be used to gamble in Betking.io ?
You should add on about this

Good luck! So basically Investing = ICO?

If we do alt coin or counterparty route we will look at getting the coin listed on an exchange.
I am not sure about the legality concerning allowing them to be gambled with on BetKing though so I can't comment or say that that would be something we do.

Cool official website ,i like it.https://betking.io/

Another Betting project ICO, I think people are looking at the success of projects like Vdice and want to take advantage of this, Betting market is huge wishing the best.

Then how could you advertise then? if you dont need those bounty hunter? I think bounty hunters can help spread the word for this project and as you can see ICONOMI and other ICO project make some noise and notted by investors since bounty hunters make some noise to social media's aswell as here, but if you cant afford to hire bounty hunters help well this should be more interesting on how you could get more investor.  ;D

Dean - i made a withdrawal from the site (its pending, its rather large, i dont know if your hot wallet would cover it) - but this was before i read this thread. is it possible for you to cancel the withdrawal? just for sake of speed. If not, it doesnt matter, i can just re-deposit. figured id save myself the transaction fee if possible.

User Name: BTCINVEST1

it's the ico week? a lot of ico in the past days, it will be hard to chose which one buy in :D But I like to bet and this one could make me bet! moon!!

An interesting project, something on similarity with vDice, I think would be a good idea to take part.

But a few weeks ago Betking ready for sale https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1676311.0
So I do not understand why they opened ICO OP may be able to explain it here

This might be a better ico project, as this project has been running for years and already made profit

Will do. Thanks

It's not a problem with not being able to afford it at all, especially since I could do it is extra shares.

The fact is BetKing currently has 6000 Bitcoin invested and most of those investors are in a group chat on slack and so know about this thread already.
So they can invest a decent amount without me doing any extra advertising.

It's harder to find one buyer to buy a site for 6000+ coins than to crowdfund investment for less and a share of company.

cool, great website

Cool nice idea. Are you planning on making it a coin and listing on exchange?
And will it be possible to sell the shares if not on a exchange?

I would be looking at getting a coin on an exchange to allow trade yeah. Or trade directly on the website. These details will be finalised before the end of the ICO.

what is name betking token
and how much price betking token
project betking token can release to exchanger or not

Will there be any limitations to what we are able to do with our shares?  Mainly, if we are looking to divest at some point in the future, are we free to sell our shares to whomever we'd like?  

Am I correct in that the shares/% of the company extends to ALL future companies as well?  That is to say, will everything you roll out (casino games, sportsbetting, poker platform) be under the "Betking" brand and thus be apart of our investment?  Are you willing/able to give investors a guarantee that you won't develop any product and launch it outside of the "Betking" brand?  Also, will investors have any sort of meaningful voice when it comes to things like deciding what kind of product to launch and/or how much risk we're willing to take?

Lastly, on a personal note, I have many years of experience working in the poker industry so if you're serious about launching a new poker platform and are looking for a consultant, feel free to contact me privately.  I know I never fail to remind you, but I was the person who suggested to you that you start a dice game on the old PRC so you know I have solid ideas.  

Hi
So the shares are company shares and not bankroll shares.
So you do get a share of every product that BetKing develops or purchases or related sites, e.g. if I started a separate sports site though I would really launch it on BetKing.io. This wouldn't be shares for any future unrelated companies I might ever do. e.g.an exchange (though I don't have a real plan to do that anyway). So any Bitcoin gambling related products would be in this share.

You can't just divest your shares from the company if you mean by selling them back to me for Bitcoin.
But we will setup a trading platform either on site or with coin exchanges where shareholders can trade.

No single investor would have enough equity to make any final decisions however I would definitely listen and take on board advice from majority of people.

Hope that clears that up.
Thanks

From my calculation you guys have done quite well with an average profit of 5.56BTC per day. My question is how do you come about the decision to divest since in assessment the business is still profitable and again who are those buying up their stake in the business also you said the business is now private why do you need public funding then, since the ICO shareholder will have no say on decision making.

I will like to know if the fund is capped, to prevent over-funding

The funding we allowed before that was crowdfunded was used only for the bankroll that players would bet against.
We have 6000 bitcoin invested this way but it can't be used to improve the business.
It is also a lot more than is really needed.
So I decided to divest everyone and bankroll the site privately.

The ICO is to sell shares in the company to raise capital to use for real marketing, development and improving the site.

There is no cap on the funding.

@Dean , what about the previous invested amounts, will they collaborate here?

They will be auto divested on thursday and it is up to the owners of those coins if they want to reinvest into the ICO

I don't get it, if you have a bankroll for investment, why do you have an ico?

ICo agan  ;D
I saw a lot of ICO thrive on this forum even gambling sites also create events ICO, glad to hear it

Sounds like an ICO I will be dipping my winkle in. Reserved and ready to show my face on the 1st.

@BetKing.io

2 questions.

1. How will we be able to buy / sell tokens amongst ourselves.
We will need some sort of exchange site.

2. How can we (the investors) be sure that the 70% of your shares don't suddenly become available for sale.
It would potentially decrease the value of every token with 70%.
And probably even more because of people panic selling their tokens.

I'm basically saying that a market where 1 person has 70% shares isn't a healthy market.
You would have to much control over the available tokens on the market.
And you could deflate the market at any time.

I will like Betking.io answer to these questions especially the second one because centralisation of 70% of the shares in someone's hand is a threat to other investors and also how do you come about the valuation and believed that you worth to have 70% of the total shares of the project. Assuming the project was able to raise 5000BTC form this ICO. That means you are holding 11667BTC Betking token in value.

What ICO also use escrow services or using funds directly from the site betking.io  ???
 

Lol read first before you comment.  The Betking is already in operation for years.


I'm sure gonna watch and participate in this ICO.  

I still do not understand why betking.io make ICO as well, but was happy to get an answer from this thread of course, thanks

All sig spammers for the campaign  E B I T Z  will be deleted, no exceptions.
That was 7 posts of total nonsense all clearly by the same guy.

As mentioned a few times we will look to put the shares on an exchange or build one in to the site, or a separate site.

Regarding the second statement. You just have to trust me. I'm one of the most trusted members of the forum and have looked after 6000 Bitcoin of other peoples money for a few years now.

That said. There's nothing really stopping me selling more shares. Unless there's some legal reason.
If after a while I wanted to sell an extra 10% privately to raise extra funds I can and there would be just one other person gets some of my share. Your share remains the same. There's no new tokenscreated.

As for the worth. This is a business that I built from scratch and created a brand that has made $5 million in two years.
That's what you are investing in. I don't need to be holding 11667 btc as you state.

Remember I am not forcing anyone to invest here. It's up to you. If you think it is a good investment for you then invest if not then there's plenty other places.

Thanks

 Dean's ICO, watch it. Hi, I have a question, if people buy the shares of betking, the current bankroll will continue or not, I think they are investors(as banker/house) too.

Your question has been answered many times.
It's been stated for a month now that all current investors are being divested on 1/12/2016, so no the current bankroll will not continue.

Thanks

I pretty sure that you would be able to raise the full amount in the ICO period. betking seems promising and investing additional funds can take it to the next level.

I just wanted to know if there is a minimum limit or amount to invest like 50/100$ at least. I am small fish in the ocean full of whales. lol! would help if there is not minimum limit.

I think 0.01 or 0.001 could be a good minimum amount. Would like feedback on that.
Also should there be refunds allowed in the 1st 3 weeks of ICO if > 2000 is reached?

0.01 BTC is pretty good minimum amount to start with. What about a refund if 1000 BTC is not reached? you seem optimistic to collect 2000 bitcoin in your previous posts. I think 2000 btc should not be a problem for betking.

Right, I meant if I wanted to sell some or all of my shares privately to another investor/investors, I wanted to make sure you'd facilitate that.  I've heard of other such programs where the people selling made the buyers "lock in" to their shares and wouldn't let them sell to anyone.


Doesn't really matter to investors what the minimum is.  If I invest 1BTC and someone else invests .000001BTC that doesn't bother/affect me as long as the shares are divided proportionally.


Since the money is going to you and not to fund a bankroll, it's up to you.  Obviously for investors the less total invested the better (because each share will be less diluted) but if you don't cap it at 2k then that would mean that the market value for each share is higher so theoretically we'd be able to recoup that money on the open market.  

But, the best thing for the investors would be if you maintained a hard cap and if you went over 2k, to free up more shares so that you maintain the ratio of 1BTC invested = 15000 shares.

Yeah you're right about the market value and also refunds add some other issues too so I won't have a refund option.

Why such short notice for the crowdsale? How can you expect anyone to mull over an investment decision or do any legitimate due diligence? I'd love to invest in a gambling project but not on this time frame.

The main target for this ICO is the current BetKing bankroll investors. We have been talking about this kind of idea for around a month.
The bankroll investors are being divested on Thursday and some would like a new investment to be part of so this is the best time.

That is why there's no major ICO advertising being done here. There's 6000 Bitcoin leaving BetKing on Thursday and we're looking to raise 2000.

I have many questions,

What are the ETA on sports betting rollout, casino etc?
Which casino software will you be going with?
What type of promotional structure will you use? welcome bonus, VIP club, free bets etc?

With the structure of the investment, Will you accept cancellations before Jan 1st for early investors?
That is my biggest issue, A BTC2000 investment makes a valuation of BTC6666 for the total site, A BTC5000 total investment means the site needs to be worth BTC16,667 to make it a break even investment?

The ETA right now is not set in stone for any product. All will be completed in 2017 though, as early as possible.
We will use our own in house developed casino software.
We used other companies before and they don not provide provably fair games and can actually cheat you without you being able to prove otherwise. House and player.

I'm not setting a marketing strategy yet either. I have done basic promos like these in the past. However I will be getting professional marketing help moving forward. A previous investor has put me in contact with some great people with a lot of industry experience for to help with this.

I am not going to allow cancelations or refunds.
If the site raises more than the 2000 then that is more money to use on marketing and dev.
Which means products are released faster and more traffic is generated which means faster ROI.

Thanks

You might want to reconsider your dividend period. IMO 3 months is quite a long period to wait and many others would think the same too. Right now your site is offering instant withdrawal from investment, so i think that something around fortnightly dividends would probably do the trick.

Betking expanding its brand is great news. I just read this yesterday evening. I am currently trying to analyze some of the terms. One thing I am yet to decide is investing and receiving only 30% of its value. This means that if i'm going to sell my share I need to price it at more than 300% of its value just to break-even my investment, which seems difficult and unwise. I am sure site's maintenance and other expenses will be high due to its added features but I guess it also means more incoming profit. I think 30% profit share to investors is also quite low. Or maybe it's possible that 70% to 80% of the tokens will be distributed to investors to make up with the 30% profit shares. I might be assessing to early on this so i'll be happy reading others opinions. Cheers.

Hey, sorry if it is a stupid question,
But what exactly gives value to the shares? I mean how is it decided in case someone wants to sell his shares.
And the three montly dividends, is it payed in btc or in the form as shares?

The value comes from the fact that shareholders will be paid dividends of the profit BetKing generates.
The more profit BetKing makes the more value the shares will have on the open market.

There is no mention of the price of these shares. I can see two possibilities:

1. Everything above 2000 BTC is returned proportionately to the investors, so for example an investor putting up 20 BTC and there is 4000 BTC invested in total, he will get 20/2000=1% of the shares and 10BTC is refunded.
2. The price for each share is determined purely by demand, our investor with 20 BTC will get 20/4000=0.5% of the shares and no refund of BTC.

Which is it?

As mentioned the price is determined by demand.

I can't see that mentioned but thanks for the clarification. I guess I'm out then. For now at least.

What is going to happen is that there is no fix at 2000btc. If betking is manage to raise 4000btc and you contribute like 40btc which is 1%, you will get 1% of the share. If betking mange to raise 2000btc, you contribute like 40btc which is now 2%, you will get 2% of the total share. So you will realise that if the raise amount is more, you will get less share but your share will worth more. But if it is raise less, you get more share but each share will worth less. But do take note that in the end, the share will be determine by the market, so you are exposed to trading risk.

It is determine by supply and demand. At first, you will be given shares and by calculating how many btc you put in and the share given, you can find out the cost of each share and that would be usually the starting price of the market. However, demand or supply in the market will change over time so the price of the share will go up or down.

I want to ask if the ICO raised more than 2000BTC, the Betking.io will still hold on to the 70% of the shares or they will release part of their shares to investors.

Hello all,

We are the ICORating team.

We’re creating the most detailed database of every company that is having, or planning to have, an ICO. We’re also developing ratings and analytical reports that will increase potential investors’ awareness on such companies.

We’re happy to announce that BetKing.io is now listed on our website. Check it out here http://icorating.com/project/27/BetKing (http://icorating.com/project/27/BetKing).

We appreciate any feedback. Please feel free to contact us if there are any additions/corrections you want to insert.

This has been answered about 10 times now. Including in the posts above. I'm going to start assuming any newbie accounts are spam to try and get their post count up to be able to join sig campaigns and delete them. We don't need constant noise in this thread.

Thanks

Regardless whether the ICO raise more than 2000btc or not, 30% of the share will be given to the investors. It is just that if the amount raise is higher, you will get less share because you contribute a lesser percentage. Similar you will get more if the amount is lesser.

I will be keeping an eye on this ICO. It does seem strange that a site that has had 7000btc profit would need to start an ICO though so some digging is needed I think.

7000btc profit did not go straight to the owner because it was an investor backed bankroll that received there share.
If i understand correct the owner will make the bankroll private so maybe thats where his personal profit went.

I'm intrigued by this ICO and more in particular the possibility of having Cryptoshares. Or maybe a better word: a Stockchain. I did read you're not sure yet about how to implement it exactly, but I'd love to see this succeed, and hopefully this idea can eventually expand to many other stocks.

Is there a plan in case something happens to you? Let's hope not, but you're talking big money here. Even Satoshi suddenly disappeared from the forum.

I remember from Mt.Gox-data that many people owned very small amounts, and only a few people owned almost everything. I do like a low minimum, but I'd be surprised if the small investors make up even 1% of the total amount raised.

I think it's clear that there's more money for new developments. But what "win win win" means (in my opinion) is that the ROI from buying 30% of the current dice site gets worse when more money is raised. Say someone invests 1000 Bitcoin. If 2000 Bitcoin is raised, he ownes 50%, meaning he'll get 15% of all revenue. But if 10,000 Bitcoins are raised, this guy's 1000 Bitcoin is only 10%, and he'll only get 3% of all revenue.
At any "traditional" IPO, the share price is fixed upfront, so you know what percentage of the company you're buying.
That's a bit confusing: you pay upfront without knowing what percentage you get.

The way I see it: after working on it for years, the owner wants some cash. He tried to sell it, but not many people who can afford it also want the "hassle" of running a dice site. That leaves very few buyers.
Now he sells 30%, gets to keep 70%, and still gets enough cash to start other projects. And he'll own those projects for 70%.

Why there's no escrow for this ICO?

You invest in the website, this website runs for year, and this project is hosted by the owner of website itself, therefore i guess no escrow needed maybe

I think it's also a coin
Escrow is the only protection against scam, so any ICO without escrow is just more risky.

But the difference here is that in the first place, a lot of people are investing in betking site previously with up to 4000 btc. So in this case, betking is quite confidence that he is able to rise a significant amount without any escrow as he already have proven that he has handle the btc well for yrs.

This is the place where the wife is the casino.
Can always be invested with the sense of winning projects.
If you did not scam.

I think I'm investing in the smallest.  ;D ;D ;D

Well, there's no evidence for anything published in the ANN, so better safe than sorry.
Web archive has no copy before 2016, so there's no evidence the site was launched in 2013
https://web.archive.org/web/20130101000000*/http://betking.io (https://web.archive.org/web/20130101000000*/http://betking.io)

Ebitz is now confirmed scam, so you never know ;)
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1699385.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1699385.0)

If you go to dicesites.com and press the date then you get the history:
Apr '13: pocketrocketscasino.eu
Jan '14: Invest in casino
Feb '14: Dice game
May '14: prcdice.eu domain
Jan '15: back to pocketrocketscasino.eu
Nov '15: betking.io domain

Is this legal in your juristiction?

Sorry, but my confidence is very limited if there's no Escrow.
There're too many changes, and ambiguous information, ie. pocketrocketscasino.eu launched in Apr 2013 but first snapshot in webarchive is March 2014
https://web.archive.org/web/20140101000000*/http://pocketrocketscasino.eu (https://web.archive.org/web/20140101000000*/http://pocketrocketscasino.eu)

and first snapshot of dicesites.com is Nov 2014
https://web.archive.org/web/20141113082619/http://dicesites.com/ (https://web.archive.org/web/20141113082619/http://dicesites.com/)

Without Escrow this ICO is just too risky (at least for me)

Just to understand, what difference do you see between trusting an escrow and any other site?

What is the bankroll after a successful ICO - the funds from ICO or more? 1BTC investment buys a maximum of 0.05% share or 0.0005BTC per 100BTC wagered?
Any fee on profit or bets? How is the profit from slot games calculated?




An escrow is an escrow because he is trusted and has a long solid trade history. I believe OP is trustworthy, but I will prefer an escrow for 2000BTC if I am interested.

Dean's site has been a major player in the Bitcoin gambling sphere for a few years now. Right now Dean is holding thousands of BTC of customer funds without escrow. Escrow is absolutely not needed in this case.

I don't think an ICO is the right idea to achieve his goal. First he wants to sell his site and now he start an ICO because he couldn't sell his site for the price he wanted. Also he talks about if he exited what would happen, but if u exit and take all the btc, what are the guarantees?

A large number of ICO at the end of the year have a negative impact on investor activity. You offer a low percentage for the early investors. This will cause their low activity. I think but get 2000 will be very difficult.

So you trust an escrow because it is trusted. Same reason why several BetKing investors trust it.

How would this be calculated? is 30% of the profit going to the share holders minus the expenses?

If so, will all the expenses be payed from that 30% profit? or are the expenses shared over the whole profit?

I don't know who is Dean. I've only expressed my doubts, and I understand each of us has different level of acceptable risk.

BTW, I don't like the words "absolutely", "always", "never", etc. :)

I am sure you are very familiar with the word "absolutely"! Did u invest into the waves ICO?
The best solution is that the owner Dean gets an escrow, I think dooglus would perfectly fit as an escrow in this case, since he is the owner of just dice, which also is an gambling site. Look people who don't know Dean, will not invest unless u use an escrow, it is as simple as that.

To clear things up, of course there will be no escrow. It is not needed at all in this case. This is not a new untrusted player in the game.

That's all existing bankroll investors divested now and I just divested 5000 Bitcoin which is much more than I'm trying to raise here ;)

Smart decision. I think a lot of the people clamoring for escrow either are sig spammers or have no idea what BetKing is. Adding an escrow agent would be a negative in my opinion, there is no added value to having an escrow despite adding a third party risk and an unnecessary expense. If you think this ICO needs escrow, you probably do not know what BetKing is: in that case you shouldn't invest. Invest in what you know. Dean literally just let 5k BTC leave his site today (2.5x what he is trying to raise in this ICO).

Disclaimer: I will personally not be investing in this ICO, but I trust Dean.

Looks like quite an opportunity. I echo the sentiments that using an escrow would be stupid and only serve to expose investors to additional risk.

I do however have a couple quick questions:




So just to be clear, from a traditional finance reading this sounds very much like you are you are selling 100% of the company. Is this intentional, or did you mean to say that you will personally own those remaining 70% shares?



To help me understand this, could you work through a concrete example? Lets say you raise exactly 2000 BTC and then found a potential buyer who bought sold the site for 3000 BTC the very next day. How much money would would the original investors expect to see back?

Hi, thanks.

1) I'm not selling 100% no, selling 30% of all shares and keeping 70% to represent the remaining part of the company.

2) So what would happen there is investors would receive 30% of the total share price if someone bought out the company in full the next day. Obviously if we raise 2000 for 30% then we won't be selling 100% for anything less than ~8k or whatever. So investors would benefit from this scenario.

How much of the raised funds will make up the house bankroll?

Will the bankroll grow, or will all profit be distributed?

How will you determine the max bet size?

Who will get the other 70%?

Let the investors decide?




OP please answer this.




Yes, but consider the fact that you can have more than one escrow, and that OP already is trusted with thousands of bitcoins, this is no reason to trust him with an additional 2000 or more. ;D

Who do you think... Betking (Dean) would since he controls that 70%

Is their a location to observe the invested amounts per day in the ICO?

Is it possible to learn about the marketing team you spoke of? What other sites have they work on etc?

lol, I see more spammers on this thread than actual interested investors. 
but yes, I am interested too, might've missed it, but how much of the funds raised will go directly towards bankroll?

yea wondering too, as we cannot see how much is invested, is there any address for total invested amount?

To be clear well know by January 1st how these tokens are sellable for bitcoin?

Also curious to understand what determines the change in frequency and how you decide revenue-expense. Some businesses choose to dump all revenue into expenses and if you were to do this then investors would never get anything back. What determines how that flows?

Thanks for offering this and answering questions,

He gave back (or will give back) all invested money today.
Who would you trust more, an "escrow", or the guy who managed up to 6000 Bitcoins of other people's money for years?

An escrow is good as a middle man to complete a transaction between parties. This transaction won't be completed in that sense: if the money is used to start another project, it has to come out of escrow.

I've been lurking Dean / betking.io's threads for a long time now.  He had 6k BTC / 4.5M USD of other peoples money he could have easily walked off with and did not.  In addition, this guy has his actual real name on the business, this is not some anonymous enterprise.

If you invest in this business, you invest in Dean himself for what he has accomplished and what he might accomplish.  No escrow necessary.

My questions for BetKing:

1) You don't take UK players, but do you have corporate tax liability in UK with earnings in BTC?  (I'm not aware how UK treats BTC capital growth)

2) Any plans to get a Curacao or Malta gambling license for 3rd party games in the future?

3) Any concerns about "snoopers charter" in the UK?  Are you hosted there?

Any accounts < snr member asking for escrow will be deleted as I will assume they are sig spam.

ICO IS LIVE NOW.

I wish all the best to betking for raising 2000BTC. I will look to invest some amount. Is there a counter to know how much funds have been collected so far? I just checked and couldn't find the total funds collected by this ICO.

At the end of each day I will send all invested funds to one Bitcoin address that everyone can see. The address will be added to the OP later today.

i don't necessarily disagree, but your figures seem quite low.

>>The past week, there has been ~670 btc wagered on Betking. That is an expected profit of 6.7 btc/week, or $5,000 per week

my personal returns for the past 60 days was an average of 1.5 BTC per month, and i was about 1% of the bankroll. So i would guesstimate its about 35 BTC per week, not 6.7.

He means expected value. The site was supposed to make only 6.7 BTC in "theory".. but the site has been super lucky so you made more than theory.

what was your Invested amount?

63

Does this mean that you are valuing the company at 9K bitcoins and selling 30% of the shares to the public while keeping 70%.

What does "will remain in the ownership of BetKing." mean, does the mean the current owner?

What is confusing to me is if you are selling Betking or if you are only selling 30% of it for 2k coins or more.

Thank you for this very interesting post.

I would add something more that bothers me, which is the lack of legal bond between the newly emitted stocks and the company's value. Someone already pointed out that the Company might decide to invest all the money raised in expense (which I prefer to call investments), so where does this value go? The "regular" economic answer is: it rises the stock's price. At the moment, I believe that such "stock" is something a bit too vague to be the basis of such a big operation. It is not clear what form it will have, how will it be traded, and most of all how strong is the legal bond (if any) with the Company's value. I can easily see Dean selling (in good faith) his 70% of the Company and the new owner just deciding to pay 0% dividends for the rest of its life (claiming a 0% profit), since there is no public balance, no audit to the books, and in general no disclosure apart what Dean has been so kind to provide. Even if Dean decided to buyback all shares and then sell 100% of the Company (which I seem to recall he hinted to, possibly in not so explicit a form), I doubt any possible buyer would accept to disclose the full price of the operation, thus allowing the refunds at a nominal value.

I would be pleased to hear from Dean about this.

U forgot 70% commision. With commision u get 0.01% or 2btc shared on 2k btc. On last week

I believe Dean can be trusted (had trusted him with my BTC in site bankroll) and will do his best to succeed, but investing in any bitcoin business is very risky. Invested bitcoins will be tied up for a long time till potential investors can get them back. Issuing company shares adds another legal risks and valuation of this business is just too high for me. So I'm out, but good luck to everyone involved.

The way i see it risk double and and commision increase atleast 50%. If site failed with the old system atleast you have your btc to wd. But now u get locked in with tokens and need take the risk site will run for a long time and people want play much.

These are exactly my concern. I think shareholders rights are just totally not represented in an ICO. You totally depend on the issuer and have nor rights whatsoever. It's a blanco check. The investment in a bankroll was much much fairer.. somehow controllable.

I trust op, but this is a good question, imo, ownership=share, if OP sells us shares, it is not ownership?

This was one of the best post I have seen on this forum, Sure it is strongly against the idea of this thread, I don't think it should have been deleted.
I was really looking forward to a response from Dean about the negative points raised in this post, When I found it to be deleted I was outraged that the last good bitcoin casino has resorted to the practice of the rest.

EDIT: The quoted text that was deleted was posted by chazley

I don't think the points raised were negative at all, going buy the recent performance of most of these ICO most of them have actually unperformed in market, because of lack of go to market strategy, I have read so many times that the owner is a trusted guy but trust is not enough in business. I will appreciate it if the BetKing team will address all the salient points raised in the post above.

This is only coin,any escrow?

End of first day, can you show us an address?


good thinking, I can add that betking is leaning on high rollers, big whales. When they come (happens once every 40 days on average), bankroll can go either up 20% or down 20%, otherewise there's not much traffic on site.
Still, I wish betking best of luck

A Bitcoin address will be published at the start of the ICO

ICO is start I need Bitcoin address

I am not going to invest in this ICO..

At the first page it is mentioned as refund if less than 2000 btc threshold

when i check the site...it says

"If you would like to invest in our ICO click the invest button. Make sure you have read the details and terms in the post above. THERE IS NO REFUND.

So i am not going to invest...Also people watch out before you do so..

I think you misunderstood some things.
The warning on the website is for user-issued refunds, a lot of ICOs allowed their investors to opt out of the investment, as long as the end of the ICO wasn't reached yet.
Such a refund (decided by the user, and only for one users specific investment) will not be available in this one.

However, if the threshold is not reached, then a global refund (to all investors, one they can't decide over) will be issued.
In this case, you will receive your investment back.

(Disclaimer: I'm not affiliated with BetKing further than running their signature campaign, I got the same information as you do, but I understand then differently.)

Hi
So far there's around 200 invested in the ICO.
I'll post an address tonight where you can view.

Will answer any questions in previous posts tonight too.
Thanks

If there is a prize for translation I can translate to turkish.

nice win win, I had my post with similar concerns deleted too yesterday. It is Deans right..this suposed to be "his" sales add... I was 3% of bankroll and will definitely not buy into this new venture but wish Dean, who was always correct luck. Very unhappy that I was forced out ...

I'm selling 30% of the site for 2k coins or more. The other 70% of shares are my own shares.

To avoid any issues if I were selling I would take the full sale price and then give 30% of that to the investors of the ICO so you wouldn't have to worry about new owner not paying dividends.

I'm in communication with my lawyer at the moment and a corporate finance advisor to see how we can best set this up.
I wouldn't be doing anything if it weren't legal. If there is any reason that we can't do it legally then everyone would be refunded.

how is doing the ico so far?

I agree I shouldn't have deleted that because there were valid points that could be cleared up.
Chazley and I have never really got on well and he has always disagreed with any decision I make and he posts negative of everything. Though he stayed invested.

So I deleted his post as I saw it as another personal attack.

However I will quote his post and answer any questions in it shortly.

Sorry about that. It wasn't very professional.

So, how much has been obtained from the ICO?

The value I put on it is fair in my opinion. If you think it's not then you don't invest. No one is forcing anyone to do anything here.

You say finally get a foothold yet BetKing is already one of the biggest sites in the Bitcoin gambling industry.
There's only a couple of sites that are making the kind of profit that BetKing has made. Though none of them are as transparent.
It's probably OK to assume that the only sites making more are Primedice, maybe Bitcoin Video Casino and Bitcasino.io

So BetKing is already a top player with essentially no marketing. Real marketing campaigns can cost $10-20k a month minimum.
There will be a plan released shortly when we develop one with the team I mentioned.


You don't make sense here. They help because it's their job. They get paid. Are you assuming I just a whole team involved that don't want paid for their work?

Most of the profit is actually recently. You can check on Dicesites.com. The past 6 months BetKing has made 3424 Bitcoin.
Also no one offers because there's not many people who have enough Bitcoin to buy the site AND bankroll it themselves just casually browsing this sub forums I post in.


If the ICO fails to raise it's target then the plan is to do exactly this. BetKing is now private and not crowdfunded and I'm happy to just do what I'm doing. It would just be faster and take the site to a new level if we raised some serious funds to use to do so.



The past 6 months BetKing has made 3424 Bitcoin.

The value isn't based on the EV or the profit of the dice. It's based on future growth and more products and revenue streams.


Thanks

Here's address of the funds raised so far.
https://blockchain.info/address/1FFweGFja9VGXXB11JA4eExZGGFaS5zjzj

waoo, 181+ Bitcoin raised so far! amazing start betking.

If we don't raise the target 2000 then everyone will be refunded.

The message on the site is just to make sure people don't accidentally put money in thinking it's for the old bankroll investment feature.

Dean, I don't think you really answered any of my questions, and completely avoided a lot of my bigger points, but it's up to the investors to decide if you answered them sufficiently.

Best of luck.

To be clear well know by January 1st how these tokens are sellable for bitcoin?

Also curious to understand what determines the change in frequency and how you decide revenue-expense. Some businesses choose to dump all revenue into expenses and if you were to do this then investors would never get anything back. What determines how that flows?

Thanks for offering this and answering questions,

Thank you for stating this explicitly. I think this may be a significant incentive to potential investors.

Broad question Dean - Are you going to pay yourself a salary or anyone else for such expenses?

What is your estimate of total annual expenses planned for the next few years and can you break them down?

Thanks for show btc address

I'm wondering if people are a little scared to invest due to the no cap and that if we got too much then your share is low.

Maybe we should have the option that if we raise 4000 you can get a refund, 1st come first server, until funds drop to 3000?

sounds good, if you exceed the target, let people divest excess funds if they choose to

This would be interesting to know Dean.

Also the cap you are talking about might help. Would you still give the first weeks investors the bonus?

I believe it has to do with the already small amount of ownership for an overly lucky casino. To expect the same returns is mathematically wrong. It's even more scary when we don't know how the revenue-expense ratio is determined along with no way of being able to ever enter or exit. Far more unknowns than just the amount of shares and crazy more risk than just being able to be the bankroll. You're basically asking for an IPO of only 1/3 of a company without any documentation or proof of how you'll get 2x to 4x on investor returns to justify the risk. Hell there isn't even a plan laid out it's just give me money for an already tiny part of the company so I can go "grow" it because connections. How does that not seem overly scary to you?

Latest figures for today of total invested 183.45670739

Still 4 days left of the 10% bonus.

Thanks for replying to my PM - I just put BTC5 in  :)

Is your personal info public?
Where are you located?

How many people are part of the board?
How many people are currently employed?

Are you incorporated?
Do you intend to pay tax or get licensed?

Yes
UK

There's only me officially employed at the moment but I have put together a team last week of 3 developers who are working on a trial period.

I pay tax already. I am incorporated. However a new company would most likely need to be formed if the ICO is successful.

210.17386079 now.

Can we see the address where the fund is being raised?

It's in the OP. I posted it here but a mod deleted it :)

https://blockchain.info/address/1FFweGFja9VGXXB11JA4eExZGGFaS5zjzj

I checked this address. But, at the time of my last post, there was BTC 194.45670739 in it. Now, I see another Tx is added to make it exact 210.17386079...

https://blockchain.info/tx/501d3b922c84f891f5bcc1637671af9bb7c7cb3bfde3169b6786b6a549f91f3c

Thanks for the confirmation anyway...

Yep, I posted in the OP I would update it daily.

I thought I'd be trusted enough to let 15 coins wait a little bit considering I just divested 6000 ;)

Ok. I was just confused whether I'm seeing the right address.

In OP, it is stated that "BetKing will create 100,000,000 tokens (100 million) to represent 100% shares of BetKing." Does it mean BetKing will issue a new pre-mined alt coin with max supply of 100 million?

If yes, will users need to have that alt coin client and dividend be paid in the same alt coin as well?

If no, will the token ownership only be authenticated through BetKing's centralized DB?

That is yet to be decided. I would like the alt coin one as then you can trade on exchanges. But it might be only on site (which would be easiest).
This needs some small clarification still from lawyer before I can make the decision but will be made before ICO end.

I am very interested in this and think I will invest a little to see how it goes and if I like what I see I shall invest more.
It is good that we have another good investment opportunity in the works from a trusted source and not some silly HYIP scam.

Hi thanks.

The only thing to note is after the ICO fund raising period ends you won't be able to invest more directly. You should be able to buy shares off others if someone is selling though.

Unless you mean invest and see how close we get to target before the end of the ICO period?

Funds raised latest figure:
220.95811847

Any promotion in Twitter or Facebook?

Well over 10% of the way there now! I think this is a much more compelling deal now (mostly due to yourself still running the show).

Hope it gets to the threshold  :)

Thanks.

223.95811847 now.

Be interesting to see how much is invested at the end of the 10% bonus period.

I had to put another BTC5 in for the bonus period  ;)

Thanks!
That takes us up to 228.95811847 now. Address updated.

Would be best to have a tradeable coin, I would think - then it acts more like a stock where people can determine real market value for it

Agreed. That's the route I'm looking to most likely take. Will announce more in the next week on that decision but you will definitely be able to trade your  shares after the ICO.

Thanks

I invested today. Please dont let me down Betking.

Just to say I've invested and fully support & trust BetKing/Dean. Been invested in the bankroll for a few years now and never had a problem (and also been betting on the site on and off). Should be good to see what the ICO holds in store for the future..

Profits hopefully. Lots of them. Now if the bitcoin blockchain can find a few more blocks before I die that would be great because I also invested in the pure vidz coin and id like to see my investment show up. I sent it about 40 minutes ago and it only has 1 confirmation.

Any information you can give out like a real IPO would in a prospectus? Cash flows with dates, terms, etc? I'd like to do a little analysis if possible

Mods keep deleting my posts for no reason.

But the total raised is now 423.31418701

(apparently that isn't important information?)

Why mod deleted? 423 is very big, most of them must the previous bankroll investors, will you list the token/coin to exchange? Betking is the most profitable casino AFAIK, if the token can be trading, that will be damn awesome

That's the plan yeah.

Thanks

So I'm used to investing in businesses.

I usually see a financial statement.

Showing revenue, expenses and profit/loss.

Do you have anything like this available Dean?

For all we know you as the CEO could get paid 3000 BTC a year, and there is nothing any of us could really say about it.

Without a clear picture of the revenue and expenses its really hard to invest.

We also invest in ICO. Good luck to all of us!

AFAIK the information we have is data from https://dicesites.com/betking from 2014/11/2 to date.

Revenue is, on average, some percentage of bets - house edge, different for every kind of game.
Outlays not known.
Estimate growth rate and the minimum ROI you need to invest.
If the value of BetKing comes to more than 7000BTC and you trust Dean, you are good to go. :)



I think Dean cannot pay himself 3000 BTC without the consent of majority investors. but he owns 70% stake, idk

He can do whatever he wants with the money once it's in his hands - but the point of posting terms is so that it is on record that he won't without permission. Obviously this offers no protection here - but it does serve as a little safety net for the future

Will respond later today
Thanks

most sensible guy on here.

Can we get the information by period? Either monthly or annually would be good, can work with either

THE REAL MODS KNOW U ARE ABOUT PUTTING UP THE GREATEST SCAM IN BTC HISTORY. you should be banned from this forum cos you gonna destroy some btctalk members life for ever. this is like someone seeing fire and walking straight into it

He could have walked away with much more by just exit scamming a while ago, so I doubt it's a regular scam. Doesn't mean it's a good investment though.

Either way, could not be the biggest scam ever. Far from it.

If I invest 20 btc today, how many shares will I end up with betking?

Well, kind of. Before, sure, he could have walked away with more bitcoins from the bankroll at any point in time, but he was also paying out a higher % of the profits. Now, he's only paying out 30%, so he'll make more that way and there is money in the bankroll.

Of course, this is all pure speculation, and BK is about as trustworthy as it gets in this business

Why do you say like that?

I was just responding to the guy before me explaining why returning the previous bankroll doesn't mean BetKing is more trustworthy - given how trustworthy they already are, it would be difficult to make them even more trustworthy at all

I dont think that should be difficult. In my mind they are trustworthy with 10's of thousands of btc.

I dont see them running off when they have a good business going.

I doubt any escrow on this forum can be trusted to hold 2000BTC. Professionals outside of this forum with real world identity and legally incorporated may be trusted for such amount.

Already been said there's no escrow going to be used. I've held more for previous investors.

You should just ignore the people who demand escrow. Your business has been around for long enough that an escrow is not needed in this situation. If betking.io was brand new it would be a different discussion we would be having.

So this isn't exactly like a typical business (up to this point so far) so there was no traditional business plan and the business model changes as soon as the ICO is over, from already changing on the 1st of December where we had a crowdfunded bankroll to now private bankroll.

For profit you can see the profit in the original post is > 7200 Bitcoin.
Fixed expenses are around £1000 per month for Cloudflare, server hosting etc.
Obviously there will be extra expenses after the ICO for marketing/dev etc otherwise there would be no point in doing this but then also we should see more volume and revenue due to this.

I am not and won't be paying myself 3000 a year. I would be taking a minimal salary, this is to be decided this week after meeting with accountant as to how we best do this as well as clear up some other questions. Also meeting with lawyer this week to clear some things up and we should be able to finalise on dividend distribution asap.

Lastly the final amount raised so far is now 481.29162755. Will top up the address in next 30 mins.

Thanks

What was the ultimate goal?

Added a new term for investor safety under the exit strategy terms in the original post:


"if BetKing was forced to close suddenly within 3 months of the ICO then all existing funds in the business at that point would be used to pay investors back as close to their full initial investment as possible before I took any share."

Since the aim of the ICO is to raise 2,000 BTC and only 30% of the Company is going pseudo-public, you'd end up at most with 0.3% of the company shares.

For what it's worth, that's 1/4 of the amount in 1/4 of the time.

fantastic in ico selling
so the next betking coin can added to exchanger or not
and any bounty to get betking coin

Hold on: You are paying yourself a salary? On top of keeping 70%? Seems you are trying to double dip in every possible scenario. Trying to keep 70% of the edge so to speak (along with 70% ownership of 2k BTC you previously did not have) is just crazy.

Now onto the ICO: This would not be a bad ICO, if the valuation was much lower. Even a 4kBTC would be generous. BetKing is unique in the sense it doesn't have many players, but the players it does have are whales. Its hard to believe there are many whales out there that will be losing the massive sums they have in the past. Just as it happened with PrimeDice (AKminer), it will happen with Bet King. They will eventually lose everything, or they will quit. As others have pointed out, Bet King previously had slots, a sportsbook etc and they did not perform well. How does Bet King plan on acquiring users for a sportsbook? A bankroll of 2500 BTC is of suspect size for a sportsbook. For many casinos, sportsbooks actually lose money, and they are merely draws to attract users to their other games. It adds a whole new element of risk to the bankroll, and the swings would be massive. Unlike with dice where a player can impulsively instantly place another bet and lose out, that is not the case with a sportsbook. Then there are regulatory concerns that should not be swept under the carpet. To price Bet King at 4x last years revenue is... just wow. After taxes, all of the development you plan on doing etc, the number quickly stacks up to an even longer period of time for ROI.

Sum it up: Not the worst ICO you could invest in by any means. Unfortunately, the valuation puts this at a completely unacceptable risk/return ratio.

success for the site betking.io hopefully more cool its future ;D

yes he could have walked away when he had more but didnt. thats because he needed to have you guys trust him. this is a very systematic scam technique. he plays with your mind. makes you trust him, then have you put in all u got. thats when he walks away with the money.
i can tell you this clearly looks like those type of scams. the real mods know this that why they keep deleting his post.
i wont advice anyone to invest in this. BTW DID YOU READ THE PART WHERE HE CLEARLY STATED THAT ONCE YOU INVEST, YOU CANT WITHDRAW OR GET REFUNDED? no many shady thins about this new scheme

well said man.
also to sum this up. this dude will eventually run with all the coins. all he is doing is just to build a reputation that will eventaully make guys trust him with all their cash and then he will disappear.
i expect people to be wiser with shady investments like this one.

you guys keep talking about the trust betking had of holding thousands of coins and not run without taking a few things into consideration.
betking was own and managed buy a few guys. not just dean. it was owned and managed by 4 people. dean was just the highest staker and a maybe the brain behind betking. they had more trust worthy people as owners one of them wont just run with the cash.
presently, the other owners decided to withdraw from the investment and the only person left was dean, thats why he devested everybody. because thats the terms and condition of the 4 original owners. now u know why dean couldnt run with thousands of btcs before divesting investors.
PRESENTLY, the only investor and owner of betking is dean, he can do anything he wants and the other formal owners have no say because they are no more owner or even investors.
now is the best time for him to run with funds. he got all the trust he needed, got no one to oppose his actions and decisions etc etc.
i wont put my money here if i was you.
like i will always say, this is going to be one of the greatest scams in btctalk

You're not making any sense.

He had 6000 BTC in his hands. He has given it back, and is now asking for 2000 BTC, and quite possibly won't get that much.

If he's a scammer, he's a very bad one. Why would a scammer give back 6000 BTC to his victims in the hope of stealing 2000 BTC? The obvious "best move" is just to keep the 6000 BTC. Previously people had trusted him with ~6k for 50% of the profits with the option of divesting at any time. No way are they now going to trust him with the same ~6k for just 30% of the profits and no option to divest. He'll end up holding less than 6k, and so will be able to "run off" with less.

You seem to be suggesting that his plan is to show that he can be trusted with 6000 BTC so that he can steal 2000 BTC. That is clearly nonsense.


I wouldn't either, but not because it's a scam. He's selling 30% of the profits for 2000 BTC or more. That seems like too much. It looks like the site saw around 120k BTC wagered in the last year. The expected profit from that volume would be 1200 BTC. 30% of that would be 360 BTC. At that rate it would take a little over 5.5 years to break even on your investment. I'm ignoring lots of factors here, but that's a very rough estimate.

18% per year does not look so bad to me.

He want to collect 2000 btc to play in casino?

i am making total sense. when betking had 6000btc, it wasnt solely handled by him. if for example he wantED to run with the coins THEN, the other partners wont let him do it. in this scenario , he is the only one handling the site. HE WILL RUN WITH THE CASH AND NO ONE WILL SAY ANYTHING .
now, thats the difference between then and now

Do you have any evidence at all for that claim?

If he had partners, why would they let him speak for the site?

How much of the profit (82% more than EV) came from unlucky whales with very high bets? And how likely is that to happen again since Max Profit dropped to 37 Bitcoin? I've seen it higher than 400 Bitcoin at some point.

I see there are a few retarded people in this thread now :)

Anyway, no there is no partners before.

Lastly, I'm selling 30% of my COMPANY here. Not the bankroll share or anything, COMPANY. That's a share of ALL future revenue streams.

How could I run with funds? It already means the coins are mine due to the fact that it is the company you are buying a share of from me.

I however have decided these coins will stay in and be used to grow the business instead of just taking them and putting in my own bank but anyone who knows business knows that I could have worded the ad to say give me 2000 Bitcoin for 30% and I WON'T use it for anything other than my own pay day.

How are there so many uneducated people in here?

Anyway, it's pretty simple. If you don't want to invest, don't :)

There's now 514.6 raised from people who clearly think it is valued correctly. If you don't think so just ignore and move on.

I think the main problem with you is that some people just don't get what are you doing here. Basically, you seem to be willing to sell shares of your company but you don't want to use regular IPO. Instead, your proposal is a token that has no clear definition (yet), but you call it InitialCoinOffering and relate it to crypto by announcing it on altcoins related forum. So, your message seem to be ambiguous, at least for some people here (including me). You're right though, that if anyone has problem with your offer then it's easy to ignore and move on.

BTW, those 514.6 BTC raised doesn't mean people think your proposal is valued correctly, as the "correct value" doesn't exist - they just accepted your valuation.

I've laid out exactly what I'm doing though.
I'm selling 30% of the company for a minimum of 2000 Bitcoin.
Instead of me taking the 2000 Bitcoin for myself I am leaving it in the business and using it for bankroll, marketing, dev, expenses, promo etc.
I am not sure why no one understands that as it's in the OP.

The token distribution as explained a few times is to be decided soon. It's not even an important part how that is implemented at this stage.

Also the main audience for this was the previous BetKing bankroll investors (maybe I should have kept it to private chat instead of dealing with the scum in here) who have been supportive so far and I think around another 1000 coins will come from them once they have time to make their decision.
There has been new investors from here though so it's not all bad :)

Again if you are not interested just move on. There's actual real scams going on in this forum you could be warning people of.

Depressing, isn't it!

---

I think part of the confusion is that previously you said the expenses would be taken out of the profits before paying dividends. Now you're saying the expenses are coming out of your 2000 BTC.

In the OP you wrote this, which seems to contradict what you wrote above that your 2k BTC will be used for expenses:

---

That doesn't seem very professional.

Not very professional no, but neither are people like RichGang are they? I should also not post when I first wake up :)

So say we raise the 2000 and have 2000 Bitcoin in the business instead of me taking it out.

If we have a month where we made 40 Bitcoin profit and fixed expenses like server etc were say 2 then 40-2 would be added to the 2000.

If we have a month where we spent 20 Bitcoin on marketing, 2 on fixed expenses but also lost 10 on dice then 20+2+10 would be removed from the 2000.

I hope that is clearer

But we are not entrusting 2000 BTC to him, so he does not need to be. Also, "never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience".

574.66987867 total now.

i dont have to be professional to point out a scam.
dude, when you where in possession of thousands of btcs, the site was run by a few people, not just you. you where just like the mouth piece of betking.
presently, you are doing this independently and the chances of you running with this coins is 97%.
you have been deleting my post6 because you know am saying the truth.
dude, i will keep posting it like it is, atleast i will end up saving 1 or 2 people that would have lost their hard earned cash to you.  

BetKing has always been run only by me. I'm not sure what makes you think otherwise. There's not even another member of staff.

Post all you want. You can see that others in the thread have already pointed out your opinion is worthless and they know what you are like.

Please use your brain for 1 minute and explain what coins you think it is possible to run with? Because running with me own coins is kind of a waste of time :)

the fact that a site that had hundreds of investors and was profiting and suddenly decide to divest people only to start up another kinda investment is questionable. THIS IS A SCAM. it dosnt matter how nice you try to paint it. i know most people here wont want to come out boldly to tell you this. but any intelligent person knows this moves are 100% suspicious

I'd still like to see some detailed financials - month by month or quarter by quarter breakdowns if possible. Growth is the key factor here that we need to look at besides wagered amounts / #bets, and we can't do that without a look at the actual financials - which normally as prospective investors we'd get in a prospectus or something

That's not possible.
I've explained it in detail already. All the profit information is public on dicesites.com/betking where you can see profit and wagered by month all the way back to 2014.

I've also explained the fixed costs are less than £1000 a month.

There's really no other information I can give or that is even needed here.

If that isn't enough for you then it's probably not the investment for you and you should move on.
Thanks

from the way he replies and answers intelligent questions you know his target is IDIOTS

http://prnt.sc/dghtdv
so because dooglus says what he thinks which sounds right, you call him an idiot and a retard right?
i pity fools that are sending you their hard earned cash in the name of ico

We have points on a graph...you want your investors to have to do their own digging like that? If you have the data to plot a graph, then you have the data to give us a simple income statement/balance sheet

Guys, there's nothing you can do about it. Everything was explained and the rules are clear.
If you don't accept all of that, then just move on. Otherwise it's just waste of time (both yours and others).
What you can do is to express your concerns, and if you still have any, then just forget it, as there won't be any other answers.
To be clear: I'm not supporting this ICO, and not going to waste my time anymore. Everyone should do own research and make a decision - as simple as that.

NO SENSIBLE PERSON WILL SUPPORT THIS, but the fact that you dont support it dosnt stop u from saving others from loosing their hard earned cash

So rather than addressing my concerns he calls me a retard behind my back?

Sigh.

It's not... if you weren't in the hole that entire time.

i thought i was the only retard and the only idiot.
anyone that ask him sensible questions becomes a retard.
now tell me , how else does a real scammer behave?

Deal is a very good person when it comes to investment.
I am sure he will be able to meet the ico threshold.

Incase @dean can we still have investment as we use to do before?

This thread is hilarious.

You are saying that the bankroll will be a personal asset of yours and not owned by the company? So investors will have no claim on the bankroll at all after the investment?

How much of the 2k BTC is going into the bankroll? Is this 2k even going into the bankroll?

How will you determine the maximum bet size? I assume house edge will still be 1%?

Is the bankroll going to grow? How? From your 70%?

A couple of pages of a shitshow I see. I think holding the amount of funds he has over the time he has been here has confirmed he is far from a scammer lol. It is quite clear the red trust idiot has a grudge and so stupid I've had to mute the twat. Many many partners before and now they are all sleeping on a rocketship and not able to speak. They just give up their business and let the face take over hahahah.

I'm in!

1 hour left to get the 10% bonus shares. 577 raised so far.

YOU ARE AN IDIOT. LEARN TO READ AMD DONT COME CONFUSING PEOPLE HERE WITH YOUR STUPIDity .
dean never held a large amount of coins. it was held by a group of trusted people that then owned betking.
presently, those other people divested and betking is now run by a single person called dean.
the only time dean is gonna hold a large amount of coins is now. and i think only idiots like you will trust him with you coins.

Nice, always good to see gambling sites  :)
any plans for more games? a roadmap maybe?

Here's profit/wagered by month

You have earned millions of USD from dice gambling, house is so strong.   :o

2016-09      813078     16180.9    1018.8

Almost 6%

This is perfect, thanks!

Is there any bounties for betking project?

Bounties for what? What would you be doing for them?

What the fuck is wrong with some people here. Beggars should at least know which place they are begging.  ???

There is a rule against begging he can be banned for that if he gets reported.

Why are people so harsh on betking?

The trolls are hungry...paying them attention just means they win

If you dont make the 2000 btc goal will you consider doing another ico at a later point.

I know but its not like this is some fly by night business. Betking is a big real legit business. I figured it would be fully funded already.

I spoke with investors and if the target of 2000 is not made then I could sell a smaller percentage depending on what is raised.
e.g. if 1000 is raised then 15% is sold etc.

Obviously the people who invested would have the choice of refund at that point.

I would then pput the remaining 15% on an exchange.

Can you say anything about the price you would be willing to sell the remaining shares at?

Can you promise never to offer them for less than 0.00006666 BTC each (your current asking price)? Or might you consider selling them cheaper if you can't shift them at that price?

I would not be putting them cheaper no.
I would put them at the same price as the asking here.

We are still waiting to know how such stocks / altcoins / tokens will be negotiated, as I imagine several investor might want to trade them as they do with other similar assets. Any update on this matter?

This is answered in the OP:

This is a profitable business, I'm not sure why the BTC funding has not hit 4 figure yet

I think investors reaction to ICO have changed, if this project was to be launched four months ago, they ICO would be over subscribe to.

Another casino is shutting down Heypoker.

almost all the ICO held a bounty, what makes betking.io not also held a signature campaign to ICO

That's why I'm asking: since the ICO has started, we are now incontrovertibly "before the end of the ICO". One may still argue that even before the start of the ICO we might have been "before the end of the ICO", but I'll leave that argument to more educated readers.

But what if the price of bitcoin in usd flew to the moon. then you would have to lower the cost in btc wouldn't you.

this looks like a good project

It is good.

There is still a lot of ambiguity here. how much is the bankroll after ICO? How much of the funds go towards development (sportsbook, poker?) and marketing?




Eh? The coins belong to the company. OP and all your (other) statements clearly imply this.





Yep ;D




RichGang isn't doing an ICO.

When will the ico finish?

what is the minimum investment? 

If you haven't even reached the third line of the first post I doubt the answer may have any interest to you.

BetKing did held signature campaign but it closed early, I think during the first week of the ICO. It was very rewarding.

he will always ignore intelligent questions.  he replies to only senseless questions. dean is a joke. i pity people that are already falling for this shyt

I totally agree, can you answer this questions @BetKing.io please?

Just a question - the stats you have on the front post:

397,500 Bitcoin wagered
7258 Bitcoin profit
353,000,000 bets

None of those match up with the stats you released on a monthly basis?

I count:
274,110 Bitcoin Wagered
6,308 Bitcoin Profit
336,077,409 Bets placed

Obviously some of that can be excused by having an incomplete December, but that's off by as much as 28% on some stuff? What's going on here?

I asked NLNico from dicesites.com for to send those stats quickly as I would need to check old databases.

I don't know if he has complete stats or not.
Also his stats went back to some point in november 2014. The main stats I posted would be from june 2014

Ah, ok, that would explain it. Thanks!

581.4 invested.
Still time to get the 5% bonus shares if you invest before Wednesday.

I've explained this already but here goes.

The full amount raised will be used for bankroll. 2000 coins in the bankroll if target is met. 1-2x kelly seems reasonable for a 20-40 Bitcoin max bet.

When we pay for anything else like marketing, server etc that comes out of the bankroll. Any profit/loss on dice game gets added/subtracted from bankroll.

There isn't a clear marketing/dev plan yet as it depends on how much is raised and what we decide to prioritise first.

I said mine yes, in reference to RichGangs scam accusations because I could have legitimately listed the ICO as me taking 2000 Bitcoin, paying myself all of it for the troubles and work so far and then everyone else gets dividends off an already successful business.
However I stated that it would be used as capital instead in the company, of which I own 70% of.

Latest news:

Spoke with my lawyer a few days ago and the plan would be to setup a new company in a jurisdiction that doesn't require all shareholders to be listed. Like how ICONAMI and Intellisys Capital do.

Your BetKing account will show your number of shares you own on the BetKing website which you can trade with other people on the BetKing website.

When it is time to pay dividends Bitcoin will be added to you BetKing account.

This seems the fastest, easiest and most secure way to set this up at this time.

Maybe in future we can do an alt coin and you would receive the amount of coins equal to the shares you own in your BetKing account but that's not the plan right now.

Total invested sitting at 581.4 Bitcoin

Last few days for your 5% bonus.

Thanks

Are dividend rights the only thing coming with share ownership?

Yes.
I will take other's ideas into consideration but any final decision will be mine. There will be no voting rights with shares.

Will there be any record of of our share ownership outside of what's on the website?

Okay. A 2500BTC bankroll if 2500BTC is raised. Sportsbook and poker addition not in the cards for now.

Why do you say "Any profit/loss on dice game gets added/subtracted from bankroll."?
If they are added to bankroll, at the end of the month, are the dividends subtracted from the bankroll? If so, what of the profits from other games?
Or do you mean the profit from dice game are not available for dividend, but the profit from other games are?




Well, the money still belongs to the company, so that statement is misleading. In that alternative, who funds the bankroll?

In my understanding, selling your stake to others is an entirely different thing, not IPO or ICO.

Sorry Dean, but I still don't think this is clear. Originally you said that profits from the dice game would be paid as dividends to shareholders:


but now you're saying that profits from the dice game will be added to the bankroll (ie. your 2k BTC):


Are you saying that the public's 30% share of the profits are paid out and your 70% share of the profits stay in the bankroll? Or how can I understand both statements at the same time?

It's hard to decide whether to invest with such confusing and apparently conflicting statements from you.

Let me clear this up in next post. Maybe I have written it in too confusing a way or crossed terms here.....

OK so what I mean by this is:

Assume the ICO meets the target of 2000 Bitcoin raised as investment.

The business would have 2000 Bitcoin capital. There are no other funds from me, other investors or any type of private bankroll option.

At first the main product would still be dice.

I would set the max payout on dice 20 Bitcoin (this could change) as if there were a 2000 Bitcoin dice bankroll with 1% kelly as the risk setting.

If someone lost 1 Bitcoin playing dice we would have 2001 Bitcoin in the company.

If someone won 1 Bitcoin playing dice we would have 1999 Bitcoin in the company.

I guess the confusion is that I have said bankroll, capital and investment when we should be thinking of it as capital right?

Expenses come out of this capital too.

So lets have two examples to see what dividends would be after three months under different circumstances. Note these numbers are only for example
and are under assumption we add no new games/products in first 3 months to keep it easier to understand.

1)
We start with 2000 Bitcoin from the ICO.
In 3 months players lose 300 Bitcoin playing dice.
We paid 5 Bitcoin as fixed expenses (server, cloudflare etc).
We spent 10 Bitcoin on some banner ads.
We spent 10 Bitcoin on a contract developer.

After the 3 months we have 2000+300-5-10-10=2275.
275 profit.

So the investors from the ICO would get a dividend share of 82.5 (30% of 275) paid into their BetKing account.
I would be paid 192.5 (70%)

The business would have 2000 Bitcoin left in it. The dice betting limits would remain the same.


2)
We start with 2000 Bitcoin from the ICO.
In 3 months players win 100 Bitcoin playing dice.
We paid 5 Bitcoin as fixed expenses (server, cloudflare etc).
We spent 10 Bitcoin on some banner ads.
We spent 10 Bitcoin on a contract developer.

After the 3 months we have 2000-100-5-10-10=1875.
-125 profit.

So there are no dividends to be paid as there was no profit in this time.

The business would have 1875 Bitcoin left in it. The dice betting limits would be lowered.

Does that clear things up?

Feel free to ask any other questions.

So investors are paying all expenses out of their 30%?

The company is paying them all. From the working capital we raise during the ICO

Right, but all working capital is coming from investors?

That's correct yes.

Acquisition of damn 2 kilobitcoins by ICO scam artist is nothing new to the town, is a risk-readjustment of the net capital: first he boasts of being trustworthy in public with funds he gets from da game, second he turns the tides and spits into ur face. That's normal for that kind of gambling business management.

It is not the usual practice, but given how small the costs are compared to everything else, it doesn't really make much of a difference

It's only unusual if you are thinking in terms of "investing" in dice bankrolls. Which is not the norm and not really investing.

This is how investing in businesses usually works.

Note that you would not only be getting a share of profit generated by dice but all future products

Well, not quite...it's a simple line swap in terms of a P&L statement, but if your expenses were ~30% of your revenues, then investors would have zero incentive to invest.

No, I don't think so. In Dean's first example:


There was 300 profit, 25 expenses, so 275 net profit.

The investors get 82.5 whereas 30% of the gross profit would be 90, so they are paying 7.5 BTC towards the expenses.
Dean gets 192.5 whereas 70% of the gross profit would be 210, so he is paying 17.5 BTC towards the expenses.

In other words the investors pay 30% of the expenses and Dean pays 70% of the expenses.

OK, thanks for clearing that up.

To further clarify:

You sell 30% of the company (BK) to investors for 2000 BTC (supposing again that the ICO sells out)
You (DN) keep 70% of the company, and 2000 BTC.

So BK has no BTC, DN has 70% of the shares and 2k BTC, and the investors have 30% of the shares.

Do I have it right so far?

If so, let's proceed. I'm guessing here, but is this how it works?

* DN gives BK an interest-free loan of 2k BTC to use as its bankroll.

* BK pays its expenses out of the 2k bankroll. The bankroll grows and shrinks as players bet.

* Each 3 months (or however often dividends end up being paid), you check whether the bankroll is over 2k or not.

* If it is, you pay out the excess to shareholders. 30% to the public investors, 70% to DN.

* If it isn't, you pay no dividends for that period and wait for the bankroll to grow back over 2k before paying anything out.

* If BK is ever sold to a new owner, it pays back the 2k BTC loan to DN. If the bankroll is less than 2k at the time of sale, the shortfall is made up from the sale price so that DN's loan is repaid in full.

* After repaying the loan, the money left over from the sale is paid out to the shareholders. 30% to the public, 70% to DN.

I don't think I've seen you refer to the 2k in BTC's bankroll as a loan from DN to BK, but I don't see what else it could be. It doesn't belong to BK. It belongs to DN, who sold 30% of the company in exchange for 2k BTC. Is it a loan? Is it interest-free?

are u able to divest ?

Everyone has already been forcibly divested.

If you're asking about the shares, I think the situation is that you will be able to sell your shares so long as you can find someone willing to buy them from you.

This sounds like a pretty good way to start. At least we'll know where the dividends are ending up and transfer should be quick and manageable for a large number of investors. If we can buy/sell direct on site then should be easy o offer a DRIP style re-investment to buy back in?

Also - looks like there's been quite a lot of action recently as well on BetKing. Even though it's divested (as mentioned) and the Max Profit was down to ~30BTC, it's still attracting the biggest players:

https://i.imgur.com/AFaZlXr.png?1

Why you shouldn't trust screenshots 100% of the time:

http://gifyu.com/images/ezgif.com-63a4a5eee7.gif

I'm not saying I know for certain that RichGang did this, I'm just saying it's possible. He does seem to have an agenda, you know. For all I know, it's possible that Dean really did say this - in that case, consider this a PSA. Take "evidence" like this with a grain of salt.

Spot on.

When I say keep it in I mean loaning (interest free) as since I mentioned before I'm selling 30% of my own shares.

I'll update the OP tomorrow with all the questions that have been answered to give people more info just coming in.

Thanks

So, let me make sure I have this straight - it would operate like this:

Hypothetically:

Starting Bankroll = 2,000
1st Quarter Profit = 300
1st Quarter Expenses = 10
Ending Bankroll = 2,290

290 BTC to distribute
30% x 290 = 87 BTC to shareholders
90% x 290 = 203 BTC to Dean

Is this correct?

But what you have say does not make sense to me.

Base on past betking history, betking has huge volumes so there will be great up and down. An example is 1st period: +500btc, 2nd period: -200btc, 3rd period: +600btc, 4th period:-200 etc. Within a year, the bankroll will drop to 1.6k etc. So this system does not grow the bankroll but it will only keep depleting until??????

Selling and loaning 30% of the company is different from what i understand. If you are selling 30% of the company to rise the bankroll of 2k btc.

Let say you sell the empty company(without bankroll) for 3k btc and there is still bankroll of 1.5k btc, the investors will get only 30% of 4.5k btc(3k+1.5k) because that is the total asset of the company.

But if you are talking about loaning the 2k btc to use as bank loan and in return you give them a share of the company,  then the company should use partial profit to pay back the 2k btc loan and the other partial profit to given as dividend back to the company and the remaining keep as emergency funds.

This is what i understand from stock, and the difference between bank loan/bonds and investors.

I have not commented in any of these threads due to the massive number of people calling me a Dean puppet when calling out dodgy casino startups, but I have been asked to comment on this by the few reasonable people in the community that I speak too. People who are represented on both sides of the fence. As someone who runs a serious business and who has completed both sale of shares and capital raising and also invested in a few capital raising opportunities on the Australian listed securities, I understand how this would be confusing to those folks who just want to invest bitcoin in something safe and can’t see why Dean is profiting from this. I’m going to try and explain the concept here and what Dean needs to do in planning.

As we know, there is nothing purely safe in bitcoin and even the biggest of legitimate companies get robbed. And a bitcoin casino comes with its risks too. BetKing has proven itself to be secure. The persona behind BetKing has proven to be trust worthy and anyone making claims to discredit this long standing is just taking a grudge. Probably due to Deans zero tolerance to trolls (yes he is a grumpy bastard, but that’s ok, steve jobs was a prick too and lots of people invested in his vision). Regardless, I do not see this as a scam to take 2000BTC. This does not look like the case here, he is simply looking to capitalize on the brand he has built up over the last few years. Like it or not, but Doog removing bitcoin from just-dice had people seeking new places to put money and at the time there were many scam dice sites pop up to take advantage of this. Dean ended up with a good chunk of the leftover funds and has proven that he can be trusted with them. But you can make your own minds up and either put your money into other ventures and just watch BetKing play out (no pun intended).
Now for the investment itself. There is two ways to propose this, one is to sell 30% of the shares in an IPO and the current shareholder gets the sale of shares – this is how the real markets work. You build a business and you exit by selling, you don’t give that money back to the investors by putting it into the business, you take it as your return on the risk and hard work you put in. That’s just how selling something you own works. If the market agrees with your price, you sell, if not, you don’t. It’s really that simple. If you don’t agree with the price, don’t buy in. If you do agree, then buy in. There is no reason to discredit anyone for their decision to sell something they own.  

The second method is to raise capital in the business by diluting current shareholders with more shares. Commonly the current shareholders have a chance to buy these shares at a discount and if they refuse, non shareholders can buy in at a price depicted by the company – dean offered everyone a chance for a discount since he has no other shareholders other than himself. What happens is, these newly created shares go into the total and you end up with dilution. Shareholders also end up with more capital in the business because this capital sits on the balance sheet. And also, capital raising doesn’t have to meet any minimum, they just create the number of shares needed. Some cases a capital raising can be oversubscribed and the company creates more shares to take advantage. Simple to understand.  
Now let’s look at this case, since it is a different case to a standard business. To operate with high returns, the casino needs a bankroll, without crowd funding, the bankroll is 0. BetKing has always had a 0 balance sheet. Distributions are paid immediately and nothing is banked. But the brand has value in its ability to recognize a return on investment. i.e, if I invest, I will immediately start receiving a substantial return. My shares still hold value too, and I could sell that to someone who whats to also hold shares and receive the same return. Shares are valued based on equity + profit*<return factor>. It’s not depreciated to 0 value just because you own shares in a business with a balance of 0 (it’s all about potential returns). You price the shares via what’s known as a Price to Earnings ratio (P/E). 10 times is a normal number, 20 times is common for sustainable business, and 30+ times P/E is common for globals like apple and microsoft. And this changes based on how much you get just sticking your money in the bank and what the expected future earnings look like.

The current shareholder could now choose to dilute held shares and raise capital in the business by issuing more shares. Or just sell the shares and take the proceeds as a sale of shares. In the case described, Dean is selling 30% of his asset to the public. He would then take 100% investment as his own. Now comes the question of bankroll. In this case there is still 0 on the balance sheet, and this needs to be a positive number to ensure the casino can take bets. Dean could elect to loan the invested funds to the bankroll for a fixed term and all generated profit stays in the bankroll. And hopefully over time the bankroll pays off the load. Shareholders then retain that value in their shares but don’t see any instant returns.

If Dean chooses the capital raising via a dilution of shares, he will still own 70% of the total company value, including what’s on the balance sheet and in the case of 2000bitcoin, he would own 1400btc in equity. It means that the company will be able to use this equity and pay distributions when it sees the bankroll being too high. Thus giving investors an instant return on investment. Or it could keep all profits in on the balance sheet and the share value would increase due to increased equity. Either way, shareholders are seeing value.

Whichever way Dean decides to slice it, the result doesn’t change, shares in the business are worth what people are prepared to pay. And if you think it’s not worth it, then don’t invest.

I was asked if I am investing in it. I will not be investing in it on the initial offer, mostly because I have money tied up in other things (Kim Dot Coms mega2 is one thing I pounced on). I would never invest more than 1% of total net worth into bitcoin related investments anyway, because I see they can generate big returns but also have a high-risk profile. Take that for what it’s worth. After some time, I may be in the market of buying shares off other investors that want to liquidate. And I am sure there are others watching this, and thinking the same thing. These shares could indeed command a higher price in the future but I would prefer to wait it out for now till other investments pay off.

I have spoken to Dean and he is working on a more detailed response to this and will decide on the direction. Whichever way he goes, I think it’s great for those with some spare coin to be part of. And those who need liquid capital, should invest in more short term opportunities. Doog has the liquid investment in clams and is also trusted. Now we all have an option to be a shareholder or just a crowd funder in a crypto casino and I can see that as only positive after the past few years of casino scams.

This will not work. good luck to those who invested.

Yeah, thats kind of the point, not everyone will understand it or agree, but there is a freedom of choice. Even the people who may want to invest might think its over valued. Which is also ok, they will just not invest. Once all is said and done, it will either be successful with the right Venture Capitalist folk or it wont. Then dean can ask why, and investors can tell him. Then he can either elect to try again in a different way, or not try again. Not every IPO/ICO is successful even in the real world of markets. I doubt the casino is going away anytime soon and investors will have opportunities to get into it after Dean fine tunes his offer. The current offer actually looks ok, but lets see if dean can put together a nice prospectus to clear the air. This is a far better investment than most shit I see online. Its actually less risk than my investment in Meganet, but meganet has potential to create much greater gains. https://hacked.com/kim-dotcom-talks-about-meganet-his-blockchain-based-p2p-internet/

What doesn't look good to you might look good to others, for every seller on the stock market there is a buyer and this is why having both sides views differ is a good thing. The average bitcoiner socialist are always looking for instant gratification, when in reality, investing in a business is about a long term view and holds risk. This is why investing in business is not for everyone. The same goes with the bitfinex ordeal. they offered their own coin to cover the loss and would buy it back slowly (share buy back scheme). There were a few people who purchased at low cost, to those who thought bitfinex was dead. Now those buyers are profiting. The risk was intense, but the payout is also quite good and worth it to some savvy investors.

Did you buy in?

Regarding the above point, the 2k btc is a representation of the value of 30% of the company value, not the whole value. Dean also have mentioned that if the raised amount is 2000 btc, he has to sold the whole company at ~8000btc so that the 30% of investors will at least get back their original amount.

So in this case, assuming it successful raised 2.1k btc which will represent the 30% of the company, dean will automatically has the '70% stocks' worth of 4.9k. And this create also a bigger problem, the investors are not just investing to try to grab a bit in the profit like the old ways of betking. Now they also have to consider the estimate price of the whole betking and invest accordingly, otherwise if it is overvalue, it will turn out the 30% share will be traded lower than the ICO price and if dean want to raise more amount by selling his own share, it will 'add' more shares into the existing 30% market and further diluate the market.

This is the just the individual risk assessment that i made for myself.

I'm fairly sure that he'll have 70% in the end whether or not we go over the 2,000 BTC goal

EDIT: Also, bodgybrothers's point only stands if Dean goes the ICO route and these tokens are tradeable, thus allowing the market to set the value. Plus, this is assuming the general public understands that a 'stock' is only worth the present value of its future cash flows

Most of that is incorrect. I'll address your last point first. If dean sells his 70% shareholding, there is no dilution, there is still 100% shareholding, someone else gets the profits. If one person buys the 30% then decides to buy the other 70% they get then entire thing, they haven't diluted themselves at all. 1btc in profit is still split over all available shares. Current shareholding still gets the same return.

Now for the sale and value. Company valuation is a pretty intense field and there are people who dedicate their lives to valuations of companies. Houses are the same, a valuation is built on what the equity is worth plus the earnings. Lets use Amazon as an example since it fits this discussion. Amazon, for years, has lost money. Over this time it gets money to stay afloat from investors. If creates a new capital raising offer and investors buy into it. Even though this has been happening, and the company makes no profit, its share value still increases, because the general market believes they have a great potential in making money. So they raise capital and on each capital raising the existing shareholders benefit from that added equity. BetKing has no equity but has ability to make profit, investors are buying into this profit machine. The machine will always have value as long as it makes profit. The share value is in this profit generation ability.

Lets look at Musk and his Tesla business, Tesla just started making profit, but he sold shares in a company that was making a massive loss. How? Investors believed this business was going to be huge and risked their money on getting some of the action. This happens all the time on the stock market. Some go broke (dot com boom collapse - if you are old enough to remember) and life goes on. BetKing is a bit different to a startup and is more akin to the Amazon example where there is a brand and revenue. In Deans case most of the revenue goes to profit, in Amazons case the profit goes to R&D and business expansion.

There are hundreds of examples of selling something with no revenue and its all about the brand and ability to bring in future returns. Look at the facebook IPO, no profit, but worth billions. The value in investors on facebook was the huge userbase and potential to generate serious amounts of money. Meganet will have burnt all its investor funds within 12months, and if they don't produce a product, maybe they will raise more capital, and everyone will be happy. if they go broke, everyone is sad, but thats the risk they took when putting money in it.

Here is how you value betking. Get your future projections, subtract the operating costs (dean will further detail these I hope) and you have an income potential. say 600btc - 100btc = 500btc per year. total company valuation is 6666.666666btc (dean has a sense of humour - who would have thought). That's 7.5% return on valuation per year.  The share value will always be retained, but like all shares could go up for down based on market demands.

Say that you want a higher return of 20% per year on your risk. Then you will need the casino profit to be 1333BTC / year. Now, if you don't think that will happen, you just don't invest and look for your 20% return trading forex or something with similar high risk. I personally think 10 to 15% is a return worth investing in - since that's hard to get in current markets.

As you can see, the amount someone invests, and moreso if someone invests, all depends on their personal risk profile. If you have a low tolerance for risk or you expect 100% return in 3minutes, you probably wouldn't be looking at investing anything in the first place. Right now property is a good investment, low interest rates, trump will create hyper inflation in the future (which will compound the property price and give you a relatively low mortgage).. can't go wrong in property right now if you have a low risk appetite.

I actually did a quick 5 year DCF on this...assumed (5%) growth and 30% WACC. People might be surprised at the valuation

yes its a good project and it is interesting project and its very good to take part in this you should must take part in this project thanks

IMO It belongs to BK, doesn't belong to DN. It is a loan from investors to BK, with a right on profits.



Yeah, most of it cleared.

What happens to profit from other games? You keep it ???

No. As mentioned in OP. Profit from all other games/products works the same way. Examples have just been given in dice so far since that's what currently exists on the site.

Well, I won't be.




Thank you for clarifying. Added the last part so I won't have to wait 2 days for reply. ;D

It appears, as per OP, Dean doesn't have any stake. ;D

Investors own 30% of BetKing. BetKing owns remaining 70% of BetKing... Do the math!

I own BetKing ;) the 70% is mine if I sell 30% of shares.

As stated I'll update OP today. I assumed a lot of this was obvious stuff and didn't think you would need everything so specific.

ICOs are tricky. More if there is no getting out. It is better to have clear terms.

Agreed. I guess I was just too expecting of the previous "bankroll investors" to jump on board :)

Also with the fact that I knew my lawyer would probably have to draft something up at end anyway.

You are only have way through Dean!

Give it time!

That 90% should be 70%. Other than that it looks right to me.

I was sent different screenshots of the same chat by a few different people. I have no doubt that they are legit.

I think you are confused. Let's take your example:

* start at 2000
* +500 -> 2500; pay out 500 in dividends
* -200 -> 1800; no dividend
* +600 -> 2400; pay out 400 in dividends
* -200 -> 1800; no dividend

As you see the bankroll didn't drop to 1.6k at any point, and it doesn't keep depleting.

I think the error you made was in thinking the 3rd period's 600 BTC profit would be paid out as a 600 BTC dividend, whereas only 400 would be paid out as the other 200 is used to make up for previous losses.


DN owns 100% of BK shares right now. BK owns no BTC. DN sells 30% of BK shares for 2000 BTC. Now DN has 2000 BTC and 70% of the shares. DN lends 2000 BTC to BK for use as its bankroll. Now DN is owed 2000 BTC by BK, BK has 2000 BTC in its bankroll and owes 2000 BTC to DN.

The bankroll is not an asset of the company at any point. 2000 BTC of it is owed to DN, and anything over 2000 BTC is owed to the shareholders as dividends.

I don't know where you get the idea that the investors get 30% of the bankroll at any time.

Also, what would it mean to "sell the empty company"? The company is owned by its shareholders. That's what shares are for. DN is offering to "sell (30% of) the empty company" right now. That's what this ICO is for.

People do appear to be confused, which is why I was asking these questions to try to clarify the situation.

I think Dean was having a hard time understanding why people were confused. He thought everything was spelled out in the OP already.

I think now it's pretty clear that investors aren't lending anything to BK. They are buying BK shares from its current owner, DN. When you buy something from DN, DN ends up owning the money that you used to buy that something...

I've updated the original post to hopefully clear up some of the questions asked in this thread.

The main changes are under the headers: Shares, Distribution, Dividends and Exit Strategy, posted below too.
I hope things are more clear now. Thanks to everyone who helped get the words out better :) and all the investors so far.

Feel free to ask anything else you still think is missing.


Shares:
BetKing will create 100,000,000 tokens (100 million) to to represent 100% shares of BetKing, currently owned fully by me.
No new tokens will be created.

30,000,000 (30%) of these tokens will be be sold to investors during the ICO period and distributed at the end of the fund raising period.

The remaining 70,000,000 (70%) will remain in the ownership of me as my 70% equity in BetKing.

The funds raised by selling these shares will be loaned by me interest free back to the company to use for expenses and bankroll.


Distribution:
ICO starts at December 1st 2016 at 0:00 UTC and ends at January 1st 2017 at 0:00 UTC.
After the ICO has ended, 30,000,000 shares will be distributed proportionately if the target of 2000 Bitcoin or more is raised.
E.g. if we collect 2000 BTC and your investment is 200 BTC, you'll receive 3,000,000 shares.

These shares will be added to your BetKing account where you will be able to trade with other members on the BetKing website.


Dividends:
We will pay dividends as a share of the total profit (revenue-expenses) generated by BetKing in Bitcoin directly to your BetKing account every 3 months if the total capital is greater than the 2000 Bitcoin loan.
You can withdraw your Bitcoin dividend payment instantly to your own wallet.
This may change to be more frequent, e.g. a month, after the first dividend payment.

For example:
Assume revenue from players losses were 300 Bitcoin in the first three months.
Imagine we paid 5 Bitcoin for fixed cost expenses, 10 Bitcoin on banner ads and 10 Bitcoin on developer contract.
After the 3 months we have 2000 (the initial loan) +300-5-10-10=2275.
275 profit.

So the investors from the ICO would get a dividend share of 82.5 (30% of 275) paid into their BetKing account.
I would be paid 192.5 (70%)

The business would have 2000 Bitcoin left in it from the intial loan.

Another example:
In 3 months players win 100 Bitcoin playing dice.
We paid 5 Bitcoin as fixed expenses (server, cloudflare etc).
We spent 10 Bitcoin on some banner ads.
We spent 10 Bitcoin on a contract developer.

After the 3 months we have 2000-100-5-10-10=1875.
-125 profit.

So there are no dividends to be paid as there was no profit in this time.

The business would have 1875 Bitcoin left in it and no dividends would be paid until this amount was over 2000 again.



Exit Strategy:
If BetKing were to be closed for any reason or lost market share to where it stopped generating profit then the initial loan would be paid back to me and then any extra funds left in the business not paid out as dividends yet would be split 30% to investors and 70% to me.
Any assets including the software could be sold and 30% of the sale price distributed to investors.

HOWEVER if BetKing was forced to close suddenly within 3 months of the ICO then all existing funds in the business at that point would be used to pay investors back as close to their full initial investment as possible before I took any share.

There’s also the possibility in future for BetKing to be acquired by a bigger company in which investors will share 30% of the total sale price after the initial loan is paid back to me.

Have you decided if you're actually going to make a tradeable coin yet? That would be really awesome, the first real stock I think

3.5 hours left to get your 5% share bonus.

seems to be great ico!

Are you still planning to refund ICO investors if you don't reach 2000 BTC raised?

I must admit. I dont like this bonus that some people get and others dont. It's not fair to everyone and that's anyi crypto.
Just my 2 cents.

That's a good point. I agree. Can you go back and erase all the bonuses to make it moe fair for us.

Why? I invested when it was 10% bonus, that one of the reason i didn't wait to invest! So why erase the bonuses? Early investors should have some benefits

I'm almost certain you didn't get the irony.

No every investor should get the same benefits. Tha's how its done fairly. You may have been on the forum on the first day or week but maybe I only came on weeks later, I still want to invest but now I get less because I found the thread later then you? ???

Thats not fair. Im not saying I wont invest but I like icos where there is no bonus for anyone including myself.

Every investor should get the same amount of shares for their money. Only maybe after a year if you do another ico and issue more shares can the price be higher but not in the same ico.

I know your account says newbie, though it's probably an alt you're building for sig campaigns ;), but just look in this sub forum.
Almost all ICO's work this way

Not really but my problem is valid anyway. Not all ico's work like that, really only the ones who want to sacm do.

And what ever happened to you selling Betking on Bitpremier? No takers???

Did you think I dont know?

https://www.bitpremier.com/1-other-luxury-items/2125-online-bitcoin-casino

Haha, you guys go to some lengths to troll me in this forum, always new accounts.

I've never seen that ad. It also says it started in 2014 when in fact my site opened in April 2013.
I have stated many times I would never sell for that low a price too. I've turned down offers more than that publicly in this forum.

There's no secret about selling either. If a company came to me right now and offered £3-4 million up front I would sell and move on to other things.
No one is making that offer so instead I'm doing the ICO fundraising and growing the business instead.

Investors in the ICO will be happy if they invest and in 2-3 years we sell for £10+ million I imagine.

Indeed.

Thats never going to happen because betking will have no legal obligations to buy out any holders.
I dont like how your trying to scam people betking.

Your assumption that they may be more than one is probably driven by misleading Sith propaganda.

If your cash flow is so high, why would you sell for so low?

thats the billion dollar questions theses guys dont ask before jumping to invest. if you make that much money why even bother to sell and advertise everywhere?

atleast someone brilliant can smell this scam.
like i said, this will be one of the biggest scams on btctalk

Well, you're just the opposite end of the spectrum in that case - no one believes the crazy guy who shouts things and offers no proof whatsoever

I already said that a new company will be setup by my lawyers and accountant for this. So yes I would legally need to pay out dividends or share of sale price.

Semantics. You have a profitable business yet you need to sell some. I dont buy it. And I bet most of the btc "INVESTED" came from you.

How about this for a possible explanation:

While the business is profitable, most of the profit has been from a few large whales. Whale sightings have been getting rarer and rarer. DN worries that BTC whales are going extinct, which would leave him with very little volume, and so he figures it's better to sell 30% of the business for 2000 BTC now while he can boast of relatively high profits over the last year.

That would seem to make sense. While he could end up missing out on a bunch of value if betting volume doesn't die off, it's a hedge against that eventuality.

Much the same as when the commission model switched from taking a percentage of investor profits to taking the commission up front, as a percentage of the *expected* profits. That was a hedge against the site performing badly. It turned out to be a bad decision, since the site performed way better than expected, but it did limit the site's worst-case commission take.

tl;dr: selling 30% of the business now makes sense as a hedge against possible future outcomes

That's good news I will find myself throwing a few BTC at this. Is the subject changed to reflect amount raised daily?

Does it have to be all doom and gloom?

FYI the site has made 154 profit in the past 17 days. There's no worry from me that the traffic will slow or the whales won't come.

It's business. I don't know why you guys don't understand businesses trying to grow. It happens a lot outside the Bitcoin gambling world btw.

I could sit and do nothing and let BetKing make me a good profit for two years if I liked.
But I would rather grow it and bring in players for all forms of betting. Plus a few other revenue streams we have planned.

You see the success of PrimeDice, Bustabit, Nitrogen, Bitcasino.io, Just-Dice and BetKing? I want to build to be so far ahead of all combined by a huge margin.

That's what we're doing raising extra funds here.
Not because I'm scared of traffic decreasing because it's not going to.

This is literally why companies IPO...to raise funds in exchange for equity. Lol this happens dozens of times every day involving multi-million dollar companies

True that ;P lol

no bounty translation sir?

I hope it doesn't reach its funding goal. So I can get a refund rather than double down.

I don't like censorship. I don't like the way intelligent questions are ignored.

I'll buy your shares for .5 BTC on the BTC ;)

10 days left of the fund raising period.

Is the 581.4 count still accurte?

It's now 582.6 :)

Haha ok, so same general range. And the plan is still for you to fulfill the rest with your money assuming we can't get to 2k on our own?

Question on that - any reason your old investors aren't sticking around for the new model?

We will see what the current investors agree on. If they want to remain invested while I initially sell the smaller percent then I will also put my own funds in towards it and we will continue like that and I will list more shares for sale via the website.
If the current investors want to refund instead then I will remain just running the site as it is now.

There's a few reasons some of the old investors don't want to do this style of investing.
1) Most common is due to liquidity, they like that they could withdraw their Bitcoin at any time under the old model.
2) Tax purposes. The old model is basically gambling and some investors would not pay tax on earnings in certain jurisdictions.
3) Worry of investing and the total invested being way over target (this one obviously doesn't look to be happening now.
4) Bad timing. While ICONAMI etc got a lot raised ($10 million with no business plan or product while we have a proven profitable business and plan :) ) in September we are doing this at the end of year while Bitcoin price is increasing rapidly.

We probably would have had more success if we had announced the ICO well in advanced and had the original post as it is now on day one and also listing it nowhere near the holidays.

However even if we only raise 10% then we still have the ability to sell the remaining 20% at any other time.

I've made quite a few changes to just make the existing site better while the ico is going on.
Added rakeback and jackpot promos, made things look a bit better and improved chat and pm system a lot.

Nothing major like new product as that will be decided after ICO what we do first but not sitting about waiting either ;)

Also got the possibility of launching a version of BetKing for runescape gold. Seems to be a large amount of users interested in that and a lot of volume potential.

Investors of the ICO will get a share of profit from that site too since it's part of BetKing.

Thanks

That sounds brilliant - especially since its pretty unregulated from what I hear, and totally unregulated if it's at all like what I remember...

I could have invested in betking if i had not met LISK. I have full trust on Dean. I am just watching this thread to see how much Deal is actually able to raise even 600 BTC at todays price is much much appreciated.

so how much would it costto have 1million tokens?

30 million tokens cost 2000 BTC, so 1 million would cost 30 times less, or 66.66666667 BTC.

At least, I think that's how it works. There was something about a discount for the people who buy in early and I'm not sure if that affects the price for people who buy in later.

Hi everyone.

Little update.

I don't know if anyone noticed but we were down over Christmas due to a security breach.
No players lost funds. I lost 18 Btc.
Full details here https://betking.io/help/attack

Obviously I imagine that would have a negative effect on the ICO.

However the site is back up now and so far I've had nothing but support in the forum and emails.

There's still 4 days left of the ICO fund raising period.

Thanks

Thanks for keeping us updated. if you have 2FA enabled, it doesnt seem to let you reset at all (just refreshes the page on the reset PW screen when you enter a new PW). Nonetheless i sent a support email already.

Update / Edit: Support fixed the issue and I'm back in my account- other issue

Under investment history it no longer shows how much / when you deposited to the ICO?

Upon further review, my transaction history seems it is totally wrong, its not just missing info for my ICO investment, but deposit history as well. (support in contact with me about this as well and looking into it)

Edit Edit: Support help me figure it out, very helpful and very patient, much appreciated. All sorted.

Dean, I 've tried to set up a new account but I get an error message. Is there still something wrong with the website?

Wow great, didn't know that hot wallet and cold wallet makes such great differences, lucky only 18 btc was steal.

Well that bounty part impressed me xd

After I (Username Loyce) reset the password through my email, https://betking.io/Account/ResetPassword gives me this:
Error.

An error occurred while processing your request.
I'm not using 2FA.
I'm posting this here, as I might not be the only one with this problem.

Edit: resolved!