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https://forums.butterflylabs.com/announcements/692-bfl-asic-status-3.html#post31814 (https://forums.butterflylabs.com/announcements/692-bfl-asic-status-3.html#post31814)

BFL_Josh: "10 May 2013 Update

Another busy week here at the labs. We continued to refine the LS/S/MR boards while waiting for our next delivery of chips. We expected them today, Friday the 10th, but the packager has been dragging their feet in the process (and one of the reasons we initiated the switch to a new packaging facility, as mentioned previously). The first bulk shipment from the new packaging house is expected on Tuesday and should consist of several hundred chips, which we will be building into all the product lines, assuming no snags are encountered this weekend on the latest rev of the LS/S/MR boards. If there is a blocking problem, we will build them all into 5 GH/s units, but we don't expect any blocking issues at this point.

The rest of the wafers are expected at the bumping facility the following week, and once bumped, they will head to the new packaging facility which is capable of a much higher volume, so we expect them to be packaged pretty quickly and ready for use after they arrive at the facility."

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https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/2604-10-may-2013-update.html#post31821 (https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/2604-10-may-2013-update.html#post31821)

BFL_Josh: " Originally Posted by RG.  
Nothing happened to them, we've been working through them working the bugs out of the packaging and various other things. One was burnt for testing, one is at the new packaging facility and the rest are at the old packaging facility. We will likely be transferring what's left to the new packaging facility.

The rest of the wafers refers to the remainder of the 75, or a at least a large portion thereof."

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https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/2604-10-may-2013-update-7.html#post32042 (https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/2604-10-may-2013-update-7.html#post32042)

BFL_Josh: "Well, I was going to pick on post and reply to it as representative of the rest of the questions, but there isn't really a point in picking one post.

Here's the deal: We are not going to provide minute by minute accounts of our comings and goings. We are not going to provide detailed numbers with regards to what we are working on or shipping. It's really as simple as that. It's just not something a company does. I have tried it in the past and been burned on it when I have given out numbers that have changed and thus the numbers I gave out originally are no longer accurate. I've said it before and I will say it again: That is not going to happen going forward if I have anything to say about it. If I could give a number or a date that I was 100% confident in meeting, then I would. However, as the past few months has shown us, I simply can't be sure of any dates I have with 100% confidence right now, thus I'm not going to give dates or numbers. If I give a date or a number that does not have the caveat "should be," "hope to," etc... around it, then you can be sure I am pretty darned confident in that date or number. If not, then the number or date is subject to change. I always wondered why companies weren't more open with their customers and now I understand why.

Like I said, going forward, future products are going to be shipping "when they are done" if I have anything to say about it.

Nothing good has ever come of me giving out numbers or dates. Just look at the issues people are focusing on now, because I gave numbers for chips and wafers. Now everyone wants to know the disposition of every chip in every wafer and where they went, what they are doing now, what they've eaten for breakfast and when their last BM was. It's a nightmare. If I could go back and do it again I would absolutely not have given wafer counts or chips per wafer and everyone would be just as happy (or not) as they are now. We have given far, far too much insight into our process and it's burned us many times over and it won't be happening again in the future.

Some people are great, understanding and intelligent, and I am happy to share details with those people. I would love to talk shop with those people, explain the problems we are facing and use the collective wisdom of those people. Some people... aren't any of those things and the spoil it for everyone. I don't see any way to separate the intelligent people from the useless people who just want to complain and wreck excellent discourse for everyone else. I could potentially create a forum where you have to be given access, but that seems to be very labor intensive and the content would certainly make it's way into the public, so we'd be right back in the same boat we are in now. I honestly don't see a way around it. It's a real shame that there are people who can't have a civil, intelligent discussion, but it's the internet and everyone has an opinion, no matter how worthless it is, and they feel the need and entitlement to express it to anyone and everyone."

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https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/2604-10-may-2013-update-11.html#post32250 (https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/2604-10-may-2013-update-11.html#post32250)

BFL_Josh: "Originally Posted by swissminer  

Huh... my past employment history would seem to disagree with your assessment. I have told many a supervisor that it will be done when it's done. That's the thing about being in a position where your skills are valued and you aren't just another cog in the machine. You are the one driving the timeline, because you produce results. If someone is telling you when something will be done, you aren't the one delivering results... the guy or gal telling you when to do it is the one delivering results. You're just a replaceable part at that point."

What a lovely statement.

This is all just plain sad.  I just want my ASIC's and to be done with this WHOLE MESS!! ???

If you announce a delivery date and you don't deliver then people that trusted and paid good bucks have the right to inquire about the process. Easy.

From the butterflylabs.com own FAQ: "Our orders date back to June, 2012" - not much more to say is there.

The truth is these people promised stuff they had no idea when (or probably even if) they could deliver. If an offer looks too good to be true, it probably is. In this case, it definitely was.

Greed comes in many shapes and forms.

And here we seem to cut to the chase of BFLs failure: Arrogance and total lack of project management.

Josh: "I have told many a supervisor that it will be done when it's done."

Never in my whole work experience (25 years in IT) did any one of my superiors accept a "it's done when it's done". They always wanted to have some estimate (time, effort or money wise). This simply is the way professionals work.
 

Josh: "That's the thing about being in a position where your skills are valued and you aren't just another cog in the machine."

Josh is hinting that only in "his position" one can do whatever he wants, because his skills are so much more valuable than the skills of anyone else (aka us worker slaves). That he doesn't have to play by the rules.

This ignorance and this arrogance will be the downfall of BFL.

That is one of the few things Josh has said that I actually don't doubt all that much.  Like it or not, the guy probably is fairly bright and effective at what he does.  Unfortunately that is also why a lot of people are out a lot of money.


I don't think there will be a 'downfall' to BFL.  I think they will achieve everything they set out to achieve and probably more than they expected to.

Please define "effective"  ???

Doesn't effective project management imply deliver products on time or at least having a clue when they will be delivered?

And when I saw the shouting matches he got involved with online, with people that had paid him money in good faith, I was really shocked. He behaved like an arrogant little prick, that didn't have a iota of understanding of how to treat valuable clients.

This isn't how real CEO's behave. Its not even how project managers behave. If anyone representing a company I know behaved like that online, they would have been fired on the spot.

he's incredibly immature and shouldn't be running any kind of company, let alone a cutting edge tech company. But he certainly shouldn't be doing "customer support" either - its probably the worst ever client "reach-out" I've seen - all that name-calling crap should be left for pre-school, not trying to present yourself as a professional outfit.

I don't care how "bright" you are. Some jobs you are suited for, some you plainly just are not.

Separating fools from their money.

One time in Nashville I had a redneck drywall subcontractor tell me that he'll finish it at his own pace. That wasn't good enough, for the superintendent for Centex homes was already on my ass to get that house done, already two days behind schedule. I was in jeopardy of losing that subdivision all over only one house ever being behind because the super for Centex had a higher up wanting to get his pet drywall crew in that sub.

I told the redneck right then and there to pull off the job, whereupon he spat in my face. I handed him a drywall knife and told him to now go and slice my tires along with informing him that since he knew where I lived to make sure and put sugar in my gas tank.

I call my dependable Jose and instructed him I needed this house done within 24 hours. It was about three in the afternoon when Jose shown up and started with his crew. Come morning, not a soul was around the house, as I drove by it directly to super's trailer to give him the news.

Inside the trailer, the super looked me in the eye and asked if the house was done. Since I didn't stop to look nor spoke with Jose, I still looked the super in the eye and said yes. Then proceeded to tell him to get the painter and trim carpenter in there otherwise he's going to get behind on that house and that he was replaceable.

He didn't believe me, so we both jumped into his truck and drove to the house. Sure enough it was 100% hang, taped, finished, and dried (quickset was used). He couldn't believe his eyes. I informed him to have the painter spray some KILZ^® on all the mudded areas so that there's no chance for the chemicals in the quickset to bleed through the paint.

How did I know Jose had the house done without me seeing it first-hand with only a drive-by? Jose never let me down. His word was as good as gold. How was I able to never lose a drywall contract to the competition? Among other things, I never once even thought telling a home builder that it'll get done when I get it done.

Bottomline: I 100% believe that BFL is going to go down and there will be many of their customers hurt when they do. Not to mention it give Bitcoin another black eye.

That outfit is a bunch of lying conniving pieces of shit. Anybody who doesn't see it has some serious issues of their own I'm sad to say.

Unless they ain't right in their head, not a single customer of BFL would let somebody doing work for them get away with saying, "It'll get done with it gets done!" Not a one. Yet here you are accepting the same and paying in advance for the pre liege, whereas my example consisted of ridding the clown sans payment due to lack of performance.

Here's the sad part: Because I expressed the above, I will probably suffer the consequences, over and beyond seeing my ignore turn a brighter orange.

I haven't gone off the deep end yet. I'm saving that for after July if fuckface Boussac doesn't pull through. If that be the case, all mother fuckin' hell is goin' to break loose.

<Hurting too bad from the stones to edit any grammatical errors--didn't proofread!>

what i dot understand is one point ,

BFL ask her Customer for a refund or a new waiting time for a few weeks ...

when will the customer demand again?

after 3 Month ? 10 Month ?

Hmm.. i never said anything about BFL before.. and i know i have spent the kid's food money on a miner (which i'm really ashamed for). But this is outrageous. When someone gives you money, you just don't fuck around for almost a year. Wake the F** UP! It's almost June! When will i ever get my Little Single? You know what? F You! I don't give a rat's ass when. Go shove it up yours! $818 is out the window, but i'm sure there are lots of people with REAL capital invested in this ratrace. Phinnaeus Gage is absolutely right! So is everybody else here. You just don't say it will ship when it's done. If you say this here, at a global, multinational company that i work for, you'll get fired instantly. Above all, it's a U.S. based company! So, calming my nerves with a bit of chocolate, i say THIS:

I have a group-buy open for Avalon chips. I also want to build PCBs for them. Currently i've passed the design to the factory so they can make a BOM and give me a quotation on the modular boards. I have also passed the Klondike design to get a quotation for smaller, 16 chips PCBs. Let us diversify the ASIC offer. I would gladly cancel my March BFL order and have that $800 invested in this. Why?  Because i will deliver a lot sooner for myslef than BFL will ever deliver for me. I have realized this a lot earlier, but BFL doesn't give a shit about us. Do you know what's even better? I will deliver 5 GH at a smaller price than BFL! Why? Just for the heck of it. Just because i can! I'm asking 0.079 BTC for the Avalon chips on the group-buy. Why? Because i can!
I'm sick of people making fun of us. And i will try to cure Bitcoin's black eye(s), because i beieve in it.

Best regards to all,
Steve

Pride goes before a fall.

BFL and Josh are no different. Josh is too prideful to see it until he will hit rock bottom.

Just watch folks...it isn't hard to spot.

PirateAt40 suffered from this as well as MNW.

Your statement above is already a fail.

They missed their October, Nov, Dec ... April dates for shipping.

They missed their specs. Mini Rig has no real solution (their supposed cases are too small)

just to name a few things they set out to achieve and failed.

So no your expectations are already in the clouds and unrealistic when it comes to BFL.

Plain and simple.

NFL so many lies!

Best part about this are the many many cases they are bought for the asics i know some picture with a warehouse with 40 - 50 cases ^^

Yup. This just goes to show how wasteful BFL is in their R&D for ASICs. Just imagine how much more wasteful they were/are on their development with the fab(s).

Utter fail.

The updates don't seem to be much of anything other than reasons for delays.

It is unfortunate more people are getting sucked into paying for something that has yet to ship in any quantity at the specifications they promised.

If people used Paypal after April 1st. Then, the noobs will request refunds in about 2 to 3 days if they still want PayPal Buyer Protection.

Without it, they are at the mercy of BFL.

That looks right, I don't thing there are more than 50 orders for mini rigs

You should make a thread about this specifically before it is too late.

I don't think pirateat40 had a 'downfall' either.  His operation had a distinct endpoint although it was not predictable exactly when it would happen.

When I say 'downfall', I mean only that I don't believe that the BFL operators will end up in jail or even find it necessary to undergo clawbacks for a significant fraction of their take.

Plain and simple.

I dont see much difference when it comes to pride between BFL and Pirateat40. Same bullshit different day/year.

Yup.  That should tell us something.  Not something definite, but a decent clue.  That is why on a different post I did not except the assertion that Josh was stupid or incompetent.  It's just that most people (including his fiercest opponents like you) are totally mis-mapping what 'competence' and 'skill' mean in the context of BFL.  Just as was the case with Pirateat40, a brazen 'in-your-face' attitude is/was very effective bait for a certain class of 'customers'.  This kind of operation in Bitcoin-land seems to be as easy as shooting fish in a barrel.

If Josh was competent his time estimates would have been much more accurate.

So no, he doesn't have a fucking clue about any part of the process. Or he does and was just lying. Either way it is pathetic.

He had as much of a clue as he needed...which was not really a whole lot.  Don't be thick.

Dont be thick? You telling that to a Smoothie? lol oh the irony  :P

This. The fact that they strung customers along with "delivering in 2 weeks" when they had no working prototype is just plain wrong--it's tantamount to lying [EDIT: and that's been going on for MONTHS]. It's like they just expected to get wafers and Presto! Finished product! Things just don't work that way in the real world.

Everyone is just another 'cog in the machine', including you Josh… there are some at the very top, but you aren't one of them. If someone is telling you when something will be done, its because they have management  skills and know how to get their 'skilled labor' to do what they need them to do. But that person has their own management skillset (and possibly other skills) and is answering to someone else. You, Josh, are at the mercy of many others… the more you think you are a king, or one of the 'untouchables', the less of a chance BFL and/or your employment at BFL has in the long run.
(I am envisioning a photoshop'd picture of Josh with a head 5 times larger… maybe a bobble Josh? if only I had time to do a quick photoshop right now!  :D)

As for your current employer, you may want to get control of your timeline & your delivering of results over there, boss… or you - oh yes, even you - could be replaced.   ::)

Josh really doesn't seem to be the person to make comments about timelines or delivering of results. Nor does he seem like the right person to be upset about not being able to have a "civil, intelligent discussion" on the internet… given some of the immature behavior he has exhibited in both BFL and bitcointalk forums. But, maybe I am just living in a false reality.  ???

You thought and apparently still think that BFL was a real company trying to make real gear for real people.  You were chumped like there rest.  The joke here is that berating Josh for not being a good product manager...and I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but the joke is on you.

I have been pretty critical of BFL, but I believe they will eventually deliver something before getting crushed by the competition.
It will not meet their specs (or even get close), be weeks before anyone sees it in bulk, and will probably die after running for a few months, but it will be something. A decent percentage of their pre-orders might even be filled.

Yes, there will be cookies.  The cake, however, is still a lie.  A BFL.

+1 .....I thought there was a chance when they finally got 20 units built but now they ran out of chips !!!

It is now 100% going down ..come August they are done and gone by the powers of 50 home brew guys with a better, simplier bussiness model

You will be able to buy ASICS at the train station or 7 Eleven and these ASSHATS with the "ITS DONE WHEN ITS DONE"....well they will be done !!!

He must have been working in a sheltred workshop to try and say that "its done bullshit" would be acceptable in any even qausi corporate environment

I am starting to think that the BFL rep is on rather nasty terms with his employers to make a statement like that. I have never heard of an employee openly saying they are irreplaceable (and not a cog).

This leads me to think there are serious problems and this may explain why Josh has been nastier than ever before with his statements. If this is the case, then I just want to let BFL management know that they have my backing for the next step.

If nothing else, ejecting a sprocket will give them a healthy image for at least 2 more months while they find someone who can work "more effectively" at their job. Its either that or face the eventual collapse of the company. It is their choice...

What a load of BS.  All companies, big and small have product roadmaps.  Some of them are kept confidential internally, but for BIG business for *BIG market segments Product Roadmaps are a staple.

*One could argue that Bitcoin ASIC miners ARE the BIG market segment.  So, should be treated in accordance with standard business practices for public companies - oh, right, they aren't public.  Still, it's not unreasonable or rare that private companies publish product roadmaps.


This is just more BS "telling us like it is - like it should be" from Josh's opinion.  And, I'm afraid, those opinions aren't, and never have been in regards to BFL's products, ones based in the little place called reality.


Spin, spin....eat, drink, take a shit, spin some more.  


Reality check:  It's a bad operation - not publishing data is just an escape route from any added responsibility.  Done.


Edit:

I can't resist.  I've worked as a PM and engineer at GE and HP.  If I heard the sort of premise and attitude being displayed by Josh - that person would be canned.  Simple.
Results oriented middle management are not push-overs - don't let Josh make you think this.

We had a slang used in management meetings called a "Come to Jesus" meeting.  Those meetings were never good - since somebody f'ed the pooch - and they either capitulate or career - game over.

We need one big "Come to Jesus" meeting for BFL.  I have a feeling rain of fire, the four horsemen, and the end of days would result if that even had a chance of happening.

Damnit:  I broke a cardinal rule of giving personal info.  Uhg.

Yes, in all my time in business, I could have never have that done.


Companies usually want a timeline, ask for how long that is going to take, you start a project plan and then you will constantly mention what the plan is, if it is going to be met and whether or not it needs to be amended. If people depend on you and you say "Well ti will be done when it is done" you will maybe not get fired. In my line of work, who gives a shit what my line of work is, you don't get fired. You just don't get booked anymore. Then, after some time, a letter will fly in. A letter that basically states how the project had been escalated, what the delays cost the other company and how much YOU are going to pay them. I have seen this happen before and it went into the millions.

My 2 cents

Bashing Josh is not going to get us anywhere and IMO makes thing worst –he has to spend time defending himself instead of focusing on getting products out the door.
I believe Josh has tried very hard to get this product out the door and from what I can see has worked most Saturday and Sunday for the last 4 months.

I have orders outstand since the 24 June 2012 for 60 GH rigs.
So I am also very frustrated with BLF lack of progress as the windows of opportunity is closing fast.

In general I agree this project has being badly managed and IMO required better management support  EG  Director/VP of engineering responsible for both R&D and manufacturing --- who should have employed a full time Project Manager  and had Josh as part of that team.
(I don't believe 1 person   can do  the work and do the PR and manage the project - will be to busy on day to day stuff to see the big picture )

My estimate is that BFL now has a 100% working proto type so are now able to order all the parts required for full manufacturing -- so I would expect products  mid to late June.

 Perhaps Josh should have thought of the consequences of his chest-puffing, posturing, hubris, ignorance, myopia, inexperience, and a trail of broken promises spanning the globe over the last 8 months.

 Schadenfreude, in this case, is completely justified.

 Especially if you are a multiple pre-order customer waiting to take delivery of a product we have ordered almost a year ago.

My experience is that most engineers at tech companies, and especially staff engineers, don't need to put up with that non-sense.  Nor do competent managers need to or wish to create such an environment.  In a reasonably well functioning environment everyone knows what needs to be done, when, and why.  Everyone trusts that the other persons are doing their best so there is not a lot of haranguing.  Most of "You done yet?  No, go fuck yourself!" banter is of a joking nature and is usually a lot of fun.  I've worked primarily with start-ups though.  Some were successful and some not so much.  Even large companies can function with the same mentality but I suspect that it is less common.

I believe the Apocalyse and Second Coming will come long before there exists a BFL ASIC. I see on BFL forums people who also think the same and have opened threads to that same effect. Sad, isn't it?

Bad cow....bad cow. Never let them see you naked.

 I'm actually pretty stunned at how much the tables have turned over there on the BFL forums, and even more stunned that Josh hasn't gone on a massive deleting spree of all the negative comments on the forums.

Probably busy packing.

Sadly, it has been like that for a while.

The fact is, you just can't keep screwing people perpetually. Eventually, you just reach a consensus that "something is wrong".

--------------------

The main worry I have is that the next 5 days are probably going to be a SUPER REFUND Festival.

Consider:
--People from April 1st will be requesting refunds (if they are in anyway smart). Just to renew their 45 day protection from PayPal.
--10 days have lapsed since the start of BFL's CONFIRM OR REFUND email. They sent out that email on May 2nd.
--BFL has seemingly slowed down significantly to responding to emails. Dave said 2 weeks. Though I see people on BFL forums who are saying closer to a month or never received a response.

Basically put, the situation is ripe for a hurricane of refunds.

What would you do if you couldn't get in contact with BFL in any reasonable time if you ordered on April 1st? Would you allow the 45 days to lapse?

What if you are a customer who has asked about the specific terms of the CONFIRM OR REFUND agreement? What if you want to know something like the below before confirming the acceptance to vague changes?:
"When will it ship?"
"Can I still ask for a refund afterwards?"
"What are the power specs on the new devices before I agree to the changes?"

etc.

----------------------------

Would you hold your ground and risk your money not being refunded if you accept the new terms?
How would you request a refund to renew your Paypal Buyer Protection if you can't get in contact with anyone at BFL in a reasonable time frame?

It looks to me like BFL is immensely understaffed for the customer service side of things. They have 5 people working email but they haven't gotten their times back down to reasonable levels. So that is a red flag for future instability in my view.

The next 5 days are probably going to be a strong confluence of events.

Maybe not retroactively, but starting now it's proactive.


EDIT: source. https://forums.butterflylabs.com/announcements/2645-new-members-please-read.html

Because they didnt want a shitstorm on her own site because lot of people was quit but now there will be nervous ... the read and read few topics and think "whats going on" they shipped one Unit ? then nothing more ?
New Porblems doesnt solved ? No answer from the Customer Help Desk ?
( most Question are Josh fraud , if he answer to the right question the customer doesnt send lots of email because they can read it self ....

No Answer about the next possible timeframe for a refund ... how long is acceptable after not delivering to get a new refund request to all customer ? 3 Month ? 6 ? 9 ?
A new Year ?
Next Chinese New Year ?

Why we didnt get our Voucher code now ? to Order something new and help BFL with fresh Cashflow ? If we Order new they dont give a refund we know it and old Order`s Accept this term ... BFL need fresh money we all know it ... but bfl doesnt say it ... its easier to say the fab make mistakes they build chips they get to hot for our tons of cases and small boards without airflow ...

http://www.butterflylabs.com/bitforce-sc-release-notes/

Honest Abe, we're scheduling shipments for October of 2012.

I asked at the forum BFL why they cheat customers? It is already clear that bought the device now have them no earlier than in 2014. My message was quickly removed. >:(

Harr harr so it commences :P

Saves someone all the stuff for posterity?
The whole imagery is unfortunately already gone
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=171723.msg1786279

Has anyone saved? I actually wanted to tinker a calendar.

BFL = Big Fucking Liars  :-\

Only reason they didnt go bankrupt yet is BTC went from $10 to $100 which saved them as people spent tens of thousands of BTC on preorders.

They never held BTC, they ordered via Bitpay and Bitpay instantly converted.

Thats right ... the only one is winning here is Bitpay if the hold some BTC over the time ...

It's really sad, they are advertising on adsense and telling new people it'll ship in 2 months. It's pretty much a scam now.

Such messages BFL cleaned very quickly.

BFL's silence and blatant need to keep things quiet and not give dates anymore tells the real story.

BFL is running out of time and money. It would not surprise me if they were on their "hail mary" play right now.

Got your popcorn ready as well as your refund?  :P

Look they have a huge incentive to create miners for themselves, as much as their customers. More so now! Josh has stated that over half the first wafer is his (with more to come), so if it means those own devices keeping them on life support, whilst they work on customer products that have some ability to work as intended, then blatantly they will!!

That or a hell of a lot of chips are about to go missing...

I am going to leave this here. I have somewhat dissected Inaba's method for avoiding answering questions. It is really quite "brilliant":

Lmao the infamous table

Give the old lady a break....
She can't solder too many ASICS a day ...if calls 911 because of too much work, you will have her on your conscience .....

Didn't they give out dates in the last update?

With their track record of keeping deadlines, would you believe anything they promised anymore? ;)

Was more a question for smoothie. He made his argument on them keeping quiet. I'm genuinely curious what his take is on them becoming UN-quiet. Although i suspect i already know the answer.