Bitcoin Forum

Hi XXXXXX,

Thank you for contacting Butterfly Labs.  According to the terms you agreed to on checkout, all sales are final.  Now that shipping of orders has begun, refunds will not be processed.  Your order will be shipped per your position in the order queue.  Thank you for your patience and understanding.


For Jody's Customer Service Blog, and more, please visit our new BFL Forums at <https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/>

You cant get refunds because BFL is a scam.

You cant get refunds because BFL is a scam.

It all depends on how you go about doing it, I got my refund no problem.

I asked incredibly politely, I have no reason to be malignant. I don't have anything against BFL other than that compared to emerging companies, they conduct themselves pretty poorly. I already gave the majority of my money to KnC and simply wanted to take what I had given to BFL a while back (simply because I don't agree with how they handle their business) and wanted to give it to the competition. If I get stuck keeping my order, oh well.

I was polite and professional as well.

How did you pay?
How long ago did you pay?

I paid end of April via PayPal.

Has it been 45 days yet?

Unfortunately, yes, if you are referring to a paypal dispute.

Even if it has been 45 days, you can still open a dispute with your credit card company.

Then you lose your Paypal account and any future opportunity to use it again (some might say that's a good thing).

Hrm...I'm not so sure about that. PayPal may be more likely to flag BFL as a problem account than screw with members with plenty of history with the company.

For example, I've had my PayPal account for ~15 years now - I doubt I'll get a problem if I dispute a single charge.

So what is the final word on Butterfly Labs? Do they actually ship working products to customers or not? I've seen people on Twitter posting pics of shipping packages from BFL, but I haven't seen the actual machines.

What is the deal? Are they scammers or is the company legit?

...
Yes, when you ordered it said all sales were final.  Its a gamble you were willing to take.  They did for a short 2 week period offer refunds for Jalapeno orders for those of us who were originally promised that they were going to be under a certain power consumption, and when it became evident that they were going to be over that and not they did offer your money back, but it was clear, if you didnt take the refund then and confirmed your order to stay open, that was it.
...

I don't disagree - BFL isn't a scam. It's a company, with many flaws.

Here's one thing I take issue with - "all sales are final." Does this mean that no matter how late BFL is with shipping the product to me, I can't cancel my order or expect a refund? As far as I'm concerned, if the product has not been assembled or shipped - I'm still entitled to a refund. Otherwise, if BFL takes until 2014 or 2015 for me to receive my order, I would just have to deal? Sorry, but they can't just delay indefinitely. PayPal, MC, Visa and Amex will take the customers side if that happens.

Well I say go ahead and file your dispute, you are entitled to do so by the terms of PayPal, and let us know what the resolution is. 

<snip for quoting>
They had this here for quite some time but Josh said they would honor refunds all the same. Then about a month ago they sent out confirmation emails where one had to accept the new terms

and guess what the new terms were?

Yup.
<snip for quoting>
Now Paypal has sent a global email to all their employees stating the above and I highlighted the relevant conditions that I believe would interest anyone here.

You can form your own mind as to what is happening here.

From: Butterfly Labs Inc [office@butterflylabs.com]
Sent: Friday, July 05, 2013 5:49 PM
To: Chris J R******
Subject: Re: Order Number 100034910

Thank you for contacting Butterfly Labs.  According to the terms you agreed to on checkout, all sales are final.  Now that shipping of orders has begun, refunds will not be processed.  Your order will be shipped per your position in the order queue.  Thank you for your patience and understanding.


For Jody's Customer Service Blog, and more, please visit our new BFL Forums at <https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/>

Best regards,
Sabina
BF Labs, Inc. Customer Service


On Thu, Jun 27, 2013 at 11:02 PM, Chris R**** <Chris.*****.co.uk> wrote:

Hello,

I placed my order on the 6th Arpil order number 100034910, I was aware it was a pre order item - but you did state that it would be 2 months! I can not wait any longer and I require the money due to a change in circumstances.

Therefore I would kindly request that you cancel my order and refund the money.

Many thanks

Chris R*****

We won't investigate disputes filed after 45 days, but we will take note of your problem.
To learn more about your rights through PayPal Purchase Protection, click Legal Agreements on any PayPal page, then click PayPal User Agreement.

Dear Chris,

Shipping of our BitForce SC ASIC miners has begun!

You may have seen news reports of our ASIC miners in the wild and some of you may have already taken delivery.  It's all true.  We're finally shipping.  You will receive your order as we work through the shipping queue .

If you didn't know, you can check your order status on our website. Log in by clicking here. Use the same email and password you set up your account with.

Just to add - I contacted paypal

And they do not want to know here is the relevant information from the email


The only reason I did not cancel in the 45 days is because BFL sent this email dated the 1st of May 2013


Now onto my credit card company HSBC - it will be interesting to see what they say.

Other than that I am not sure what course of action I can take.

Either way I have been royally "raped" and then left in a ditch.

http://i1343.photobucket.com/albums/o798/buddy3315/norefunds_zps44f18fb8.jpg (http://s1343.photobucket.com/user/buddy3315/media/norefunds_zps44f18fb8.jpg.html)

Looks like everyone is getting BFL'd

When You Must Cancel an Order

You must cancel an order and provide a prompt refund when:

   the customer exercises any option to cancel before you ship the merchandise;
   the customer does not respond to your first notice of a definite revised shipment date of 30 days or less and you have not shipped the merchandise or received the customer’s consent to a further delay by the definite revised shipment date;
    the customer does not respond to your notice of a definite revised shipment date of more than 30 days (or your notice that you are unable to provide a definite revised shipment date) and you have not shipped the merchandise within 30 days of the original shipment date;
    the customer consents to a definite delay and you have not shipped or obtained the customer’s consent to any additional delay by the shipment time the customer consented to;
    you have not shipped or provided the required delay or renewed option notices on time; or
    you determine that you will never be able to ship the merchandise.

Getting a customer to agree to something that is against federal regulations will not relieve BFL of complying with those regulations LDO.
[...]Typically All Sales are Final refers to once a customer receives the product that they are then not able to return the product for a refund (after the sale has taken place).
This is all my interpretation of what I have researched IANAL.
http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=250985.0
File a complaint with the FTC. 

and the sage saga continues.....

I haven't read the BFL contract, but i'm sure they've circumvented this (30-day rule) by explicitly stating that shipping within 30 days is not guaranteed. 

Read the entire rule, if a company sells a product that is not in stock they must provide a DEFINITIVE shipping date (if no is provided it defaults to 30 days), last I saw there site said 2 months or more.  This is very unlikely to be considered definitive.  It is not relevant what they say in the contract if they do not comply with regulations.  Simply making a customer agree to something that is against regulations will not relieve BFL of complying with those regulations.

I pointed out both of those in my initial post and I don't see where you have made an argument that those two points don't apply.

Getting a customer to agree to something that is against federal regulations will not relieve BFL of complying with those regulations LDO.

When a company offers a product for sale that is not in stock they must provide a definitive shipping date, I doubt many people think 2 months OR more is definitive.

When the first delivery date is missed a new revised definitive delivery date must be given along with a reason for the delay.  They must also obtain the customers approval for the first delay and EACH delay after (which they must also supply a definitive date and reason for).  If they do not provide this info or obtain the customers consent they actually must refund the customer.

The company must also cancel an order and issue a refund if the customer exercises any option to cancel the order BEFORE the product ships.

In order for a sale to take place a person must pay for and receive a product (or service), until the customer receives his product (or it ships) a sale has not taken place and hence why it is called an order and not a sale yet, hence all sales are final in this situation is not applicable.   Typically All Sales are Final refers to once a customer receives the product that they are then not able to return the product for a refund (after the sale has taken place).

This is all my interpretation of what I have researched IANAL.

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=250985.0


File a complaint with the FTC. 

Read the entire rule, if a company sells a product that is not in stock they must provide a DEFINITIVE shipping date (if no is provided it defaults to 30 days), last I saw there site said 2 months or more.  This is very unlikely to be considered definitive.  It is not relevant what they say in the contract if they do not comply with regulations.  Simply making a customer agree to something that is against regulations will not relieve BFL of complying with those regulations.

I pointed out both of those in my initial post and I don't see where you have made an argument that those two points don't apply.

Sorry, could you quote me a full line from the section you're referring to?  These are the only two instances of the word "stock" in the whole document:
"in-stock items ship immediately," unless you tell consumer when they order that the item is not in stock, you will be required to ship, provide notification of delay, or cancel the order immediately.

[...]Read the entire rule, if a company sells a product they must provide a DEFINITIVE shipping date (if no is provided it defaults to 30 days), last I saw there site said 2 months or more.  This is very unlikely to be considered definitive.  It is not relevant what they say in the contract if they do not comply with regulations.  Simply making a customer agree to something that is against regulations will not relieve BFL of complying with those regulations.

I removed the word stock and it does not change the statement at all basically.

So I'm curious how you know how many orders we ship per day?

How about you just tell us?

Jeesh, brutal here!  I said i didn't read the BFL contract, and just asked you to point me to a spot in the document, so i wouldn't have to read the whole thing.  I am not BFL, I have no incentive for defending them, just dumb idle curiosity.  That said:
I started reading the page you linked to, and here's what i found:
If you make no shipment statement, you must have a reasonable basis for believing that you can ship within 30 days. That is why direct marketers sometimes call this the "30-day Rule."
Boldface is mine.  There's a reason.  The reason is this: i suspect BFL was smart enough to *explicitly* state in their contract that they can not guarantee a timely delivery, thus saving me the headache of having to riddle out the details of the 30-day rule, which doesn't seem to apply here.  In other words, they probably *did* make a shipment statement, making the stuff that follows the emboldened text inapplicable.  Or not.  If someone wins a hefty settlement, i hope they remember me kindly.
Edit:  Really didn't mean to stir up shit here, i realize this is a sore topic for folks here.  Sorry.  Hindsight.

I agree that the terms on their website indicate they are asking people to agree to an indefinite delay (or shipping estimate if you prefer).  That is what you are saying isn't it?

In my opinion "2 months or more" is about as indefinite as you can get and that is what BFL made their customers agree to.

If I have read your statement correctly, then BFL must (according to the FTC) provide the following information to the customer AND get his consent.


•a statement that, if the customer agrees to the indefinite delay, the customer may cancel the order any time until you ship.

I asked for a refund and was refused here is a copy of the email for your amusement.

I am going to challenge paypal even though it has passed the 45 days because according to their terms you can not take money for products that they do not have to sell.

So I will see what happens - not holding my breath though

You know Chris. BFL noted at the bottom of each miner's info page that it could take 2 months or more to ship our miners. I remember reading it months before you even placed your order. Worst case scenario, in a few months you should receive your miner. You can sell it at that point. Or you could try to auction it off.

I need miner not refund

You know Chris. BFL noted at the bottom of each miner's info page that it could take 2 months or more to ship our miners. I remember reading it months before you even placed your order. Worst case scenario, in a few months you should receive your miner. You can sell it at that point. Or you could try to auction it off.

You cant get refunds because BFL is a scam.

This is very likely not the thread for you...  Yet!

Laughted at this , this is all very interesting.

It easy to see a wave of refunds heading towards BFL in the near future.

I wonder what this will do to thier working capital , who wants to vote /bet that Josh end up doing time?

Unless he has some pretty large backers .

* I have nothing to do with this and never ordered from BFL.
But I don't think BFL has any special friends at the federal level , well maybe not anymore.

They need to clearly represent the units take over 6 mos (at least) to turnaround.  Based on the progression of the difficulty level, people would not buy the units as the smaller ones will be mostly obsolete by the time they arrive.   Unless they have already ordered/received the ASICs for your unit, I don't believe they can make any claim of damage or costs incurred.  CC is safer because you can dispute easily (AMEX the best, they side with consumer almost 100% of the time).   

Funny how BTC loyalty goes down the drain as CC with chargeback are called for rescue :)

This is true!

All that will happen going forward is people will just use escrow services.

I think people felt there was a bit more of a community and trust with bitcoins but BFL have completely destroyed that one.

It is companies like BFL that are damaging the reputation of Bitcoins for the exact reason you can not do a chargeback.

I have to say I will never purchase any high value item with bitcoins without an escrow service.

I need miner not refund

i don't understand why these companies are selling the ASICs, they should just be building farms and selling shares, much more profitable and less hassle with "customers"

Haven't they shipped out orders already?

Well if they did that it would centralise the network and defy the entire point of bitcoins which is a decentralised currency.

What would happen when those companies then decide to work together and completely control the money supply - we would basically end up with central banks again. Meet the new boss same as the old boss.

Firstly money supply doesn't depend on the extend of bitcoin centralization and secondly, mining pools (not ASIC manufacturers) can work together with much more success to control bitcoin network.

You cant get refunds because BFL is a scam.

I am inclined to agree after being refused a refund on my $2500 order and then not given a shipping date or an estimate I am not sure what else you can say - apart from the fact it may be a Ponzi scheme.

Can you do a chargeback?

Dear Chris,
Thank you for contacting PayPal.
If you haven't received your item or the item you received doesn't match the original product description we have a dispute process to help you and your seller resolve the issue as amicably as possible. Where possible, you should always try contacting your seller before disputing a payment through PayPal but do bear in mind that you have 45 days from date of payment to open a dispute.
Here's how to open a dispute:
Log in to your PayPal account.
Click Resolution Center.
Click Dispute a Transaction.
Select the transaction you want to dispute, and then click Continue.
Select I have a problem with an item I purchased or I want to report a transaction that I didn't authorize.
Click Continue.
Follow the instructions to finish opening your dispute.
If you do not have a PayPal account you will need to sign up to file the dispute. You will need to locate the original email receipt for the transaction.
Here’s how to get started:
Go to the PayPal website.
Click Sign Up at the top of the page.
Complete the sign up form.
You must enter the credit card number used to make the purchase.
Click sign up again.
After you opened a dispute, you have 20 days to communicate with the seller. Disputes automatically close after 20 days. If you can't resolve the problem, you can ask us to investigate by escalating your dispute to a claim within the 20 days. We won't investigate disputes filed after 45 days, but we will take note of your problem.
To learn more about your rights through PayPal Purchase Protection, click Legal Agreements on any PayPal page, then click PayPal User Agreement.
 
Please let us know if you require any further assistance.
Yours sincerely,
Punitha Vickneswari
PayPal

Copyright © 1999-2013 PayPal. All rights reserved.

PayPal (Europe) S.à r.l. et Cie, S.C.A.
Société en Commandite par Actions
Registered Office: 22-24 Boulevard Royal L-2449, Luxembourg
RCS Luxembourg B 118 349

From: chris.******.co.uk
Sent: Saturday, July ##, #### #:##:## AM (-##:##)
To: webform@paypal.co.uk
Subject: ManagingMyMoney (ID: C###-L###-T#####-S###-W######)
 
Form Message
customer subject:   legacy
customer message:   >Topic: 'Managing My Money'
>Sub Topic: 'Refund or cancel a payment'
>payment_action: 'refund'
>message: 'Hello, I ordered a product from Butterfly Labs on the 6th of April Transaction ID 1DP9********911G.
>
>I have asked the company for a refund as they have still not delivered the item and refuse to give me a refund. They also refuse to give a delivery date.
>
>They continuously lie about when the product is going to be shipped - saying a few more weeks each time - a few weeks pass and then nothing and they say the same again.
>
>Please contact them and ask when the item will be delivered, it will become very apparent to you that they will not give a date.
>
>I also know of a numerous other people that have not received their item and also have been refused a refund who also paid with paypal.
>
>It is now obvious they do not have the products and therefore should not be taking peoples money yet they are still taking orders!
>
>Please investigate this.
>
>I eagerly await your response.
>
>Best regards
>
>Chris'

Firstly money supply doesn't depend on the extend of bitcoin centralization and secondly, mining pools (not ASIC manufacturers) can work together with much more success to control bitcoin network.

Can you do a chargeback?

+1. I believe the answer is using 'public' companies or cooperatives similar to the way ASICMiner works. With AM being at least partially responsible to their shareholders, this allows for an efficient mining operation to be controlled by a decentralized collective of BTC supporters.

I bought 2 in April before I really started paying attention over here at BTCtalk.
After reading about them, I had a good idea they would not be shipping my order any time soon.

So, I gave them 42 days and I wrote them a note:

"My buyer protection is about to expire, please refund my money if my product hasn't yet shipped."

They promptly refunded me.

Ok after speaking to HSBC they have informed me you can dispute a transaction 118 days after the purchase.

Beyond that you have no grounds to get a refund.

They said if BFL has not shipped the product and not given a delivery date then BFL are in breach of contract and regardless of the fact they say "all sales are final" it has no legal basis in any shape or form.

The "all sales are final" is to discourage people disputing the transaction but does not mean you can not dispute it.

HSBC are now sending me some forms I have to fill out and return and then will issue a chargeback.

So anyone else in my position please check how many days ago your order was because if you pass 118 you will have no protection.

So anyone else in my position please check how many days ago your order was because if you pass 118 you will have no protection.

FYI, I've initiated chargebacks with my CC. I sent PayPal an email to let them know my intentions - I essentially got a canned response as well.

For some reason, I find it hard to believe that PayPal will close my account over a couple of chargebacks considering I've had the account since the late '90s.

I know for a fact that companies will state far higher costs than they actually incur to reduce payouts to shareholders.

...I am just going to phone HSBC first thing in the morning and chargeback on my credit card. Now I don't care if Paypal get upset - their risk assessment team should have done their job and NOT allowed BFL to take paypal payments. Paypal will have no one else to blame accept their own incompetence.

Well that's fraud and is illegal.

You could say this of any company/organisation.

If they're playing by the book then you have no argument.

It is not illegal because of the mechanisms they use.

The way the money is "hidden" is by utilising over paid services.

So for example if you own a Data Centre you can quite easily create a second company that provides the electricity - This then sells the power to the Data Centre at above market rate so the profit of the data centre is reduced and share holders in the data centre will have reduced dividend payment while the second company has extremely high profits that the share holders of the Data Centre will receive no dividends from.

With ASICMiner for example - Do they own the facility that produces the ASIC chips or is this owned by "Someone" else that then sells them to ASICMiner. What is the arrangement with their Data Centre? Do they own it or lease space? Who are they leasing the space from. Who provides the connectivity?
Who actually owns the businesses that provide these services?

I am not saying ASICMiner undertake these practices but you can not say for certain.

This is the problem - they can do it and it is fully legitimate and an absolute nightmare to prove.

Is this not a risk with any company?

Of course it is - that is why Satoshi stated that one of the main reasons for creating Bitcoins was to stop centralisation and allowing these types of practises to take place.

People arguing that buying shares in large mining companies is a good thing do not understand how big business works.

If everyone stopped mining and just bought shares in large mining companies the amount of money available would be significantly less than if people were mining themselves due to all the extra costs that are worked into the accounts of big companies.

For example the cost for you to mine one bitcoin is $10 minus your operating costs. - You would obviously seek to minimise your costs as much as possible as this is in your interest.

That same Bitcoin mined through a mining corporation will be $10 minus many overinflated costs. These guys would seek to maximise costs to an extent if they are benefiting through revenue from their partner companies.

That's why I said something similar to AM or a cooperative whereby shareholders received voting rights in operating the mining cooperative. Ultimately, a single entity is going to be able to negotiate lower costs if they design and purchase their own chips, lease data center space and operate a farm of mining hardware. There's no way that miners operating at their home will be able to compete on the cost side. We're going to have to form or invest in "companies" if we want to keep mining a profitable venture. AM is not a perfect example, for the items mentioned but it's one of the more successful examples at the moment.

After seeing your original post about the FTC I sent an email to BFL highlighting the case.

Many thanks for your input!

Unsurprisingly they have not responded!

They can afford lawyers now.

To do what?

To ensure you getting a refund is as painful as possible and to get themselves out of any legal difficulty they've left themselves in.

Cost/benefit analysis should make a lawyer very worthwhile by now.

To ensure you getting a refund is as painful as possible and to get themselves out of any legal difficulty they've left themselves in.

Cost/benefit analysis should make a lawyer very worthwhile by now.

You are correct to a certain extent - a single entity may be able to negotiate lower costs for commodities (electricity, DC space etc etc) but this is offset by the massive overhead of employees.

In any big company just look at the madness that goes on - 100's of total non jobs - The cost of regulation when a business reaches a certain size is also massive. HR departments AKA people that generate the business no money at all yet still command high salaries.

If you have ever run a business you will soon see the biggest cost is personnel it dwarfs all the other costs.

Never underestimate human greed - it will always find a way to corrupt any system given any means of control - do not give them control and it can not be corrupted.

If power is centralised it will take the Governments 10 seconds to close down the network as it easy to shut one company down versus hundreds of thousands of individual miners. If the bit torrent network had followed this route to centralisation it would have been gone long ago.