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Title: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: solitude on July 03, 2013, 09:16:33 PM How many of you have been successful in getting a refund through paypal, after BFL illegally denied your refund?
Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Zanatos666 on July 03, 2013, 09:30:36 PM How many of you have been successful in getting a refund through paypal, after BFL illegally denied your refund? How do you consider it illegal when it states "All Sales Are Final"? Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Mota on July 03, 2013, 09:33:10 PM All sales are final is in itself illegal. As long as they can't deliver the item on the day you want your refund they have to give you the refund. That is common business pratice and even law in some countries...
Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Kuroth on July 03, 2013, 09:33:25 PM I am working on it and just open disputes on Paypal for all the orders I had with BFL. Shortly after that I got two Credit Emails fro BFL that I "think" is BFL refunding me... We will see..
I am SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO glad to get away from this company.. Just VERY shady scummy people if you ask me.. I dont give a shit if they actually do get their back orders cleared by End of Aug(Which I bet 100 BTC they wont but I know Josh would not have the balls to take my bet) I STILL will be happy I will NEVER do business with them. And will continue to do my best to get others not to place orders with them.. Oh BTW they banned me fro their forums this morning.. What is funny is they redirect me to here.. Bitcoin Talk.. If I was in charge of Bitcoin talk I would sue their ass for doing that.. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: suryc on July 03, 2013, 09:42:46 PM All sales are final is in itself illegal. As long as they can't deliver the item on the day you want your refund they have to give you the refund. That is common business pratice and even law in some countries... That is absolutely correct. In USA even though you can post "ALL SALES FINAL", it is illegal to enforce that policy in practice. Moreover, a retailer must always offer a refund when merchandise is defective, damaged or otherwise not as advertised. The words "sold as is" or "final sale" are meaningless insofar as consumer protection laws always offer some form of redress. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Zanatos666 on July 03, 2013, 09:43:16 PM All sales are final is in itself illegal. As long as they can't deliver the item on the day you want your refund they have to give you the refund. That is common business pratice and even law in some countries... Any good lawyer or judge will tell you its all in the wording, and BFL uses it well. And I quote " Bitforce SC (ASIC) products are shipped according to placement in the order queue, and delivery may take 2 months or more after order. All sales are final." The statement of "2 months or more" makes denying you a refund legal. The only way it becomes illegal is if they never deliver the product....ever. If they discontinue the item and say that it will never ship, THEN you are legally owed a refund. But, when you paid for your item, they essentially told you it would take at least 2 months. They never promised before a certain time frame. Some people have been able to successfully get refunds, and that is totally at the companies discretion. Its no different that buying a product with a warranty, and then that product breaking after that warranty has expired. They company promised that under normal use, their product will last ATLEAST that long. Anything beyond that, they do not have to fix/repair, but if they choose to do it then thats their own discretion. Same also applies to returns and countless other policies in place everyday. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: k9quaint on July 03, 2013, 09:43:46 PM All sales are final is in itself illegal. As long as they can't deliver the item on the day you want your refund they have to give you the refund. That is common business pratice and even law in some countries... That is absolutely correct. In USA even though you can post "ALL SALES FINAL", it is illegal to enforce that policy in practice. Moreover, a retailer must always offer a refund when merchandise is defective, damaged or otherwise not as advertised. The words "sold as is" or "final sale" are meaningless insofar as consumer protection laws always offer some form of redress. ^^This. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Flying Hellfish on July 03, 2013, 09:48:28 PM All sales are final is in itself illegal. As long as they can't deliver the item on the day you want your refund they have to give you the refund. That is common business pratice and even law in some countries... Any good lawyer or judge will tell you its all in the wording, and BFL uses it well. And I quote " Bitforce SC (ASIC) products are shipped according to placement in the order queue, and delivery may take 2 months or more after order. All sales are final." The statement of "2 months or more" makes denying you a refund legal. The only way it becomes illegal is if they never deliver the product....ever. If they discontinue the item and say that it will never ship, THEN you are legally owed a refund. But, when you paid for your item, they essentially told you it would take at least 2 months. They never promised before a certain time frame. Some people have been able to successfully get refunds, and that is totally at the companies discretion. Its no different that buying a product with a warranty, and then that product breaking after that warranty has expired. They company promised that under normal use, their product will last ATLEAST that long. Anything beyond that, they do not have to fix/repair, but if they choose to do it then thats their own discretion. Same also applies to returns and countless other policies in place everyday. Dude... You and BFL may want us all to believe this but until a customers order physically ships it appears according to the FTC that the company must issue a prompt refund when the customer asks for a refund for ANY reason. Just because their ToS is against FTC regulations doesn't mean it's OK to break those regulations because you put it in your ToS LDO. (Bolded in mine) When You Must Cancel an Order You must cancel an order and provide a prompt refund when: •the customer exercises any option to cancel before you ship the merchandise; •the customer does not respond to your first notice of a definite revised shipment date of 30 days or less and you have not shipped the merchandise or received the customer’s consent to a further delay by the definite revised shipment date; •the customer does not respond to your notice of a definite revised shipment date of more than 30 days (or your notice that you are unable to provide a definite revised shipment date) and you have not shipped the merchandise within 30 days of the original shipment date; •the customer consents to a definite delay and you have not shipped or obtained the customer’s consent to any additional delay by the shipment time the customer consented to; •you have not shipped or provided the required delay or renewed option notices on time; or •you determine that you will never be able to ship the merchandise. http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule The way I read this BFL is clearly in violation of the FTC mail and telephone order merchandise rule (punishable by the FTC suing them for up to $16,000 per incident). Your turn, please post some evidence of BFL's no refund policy being legitimate. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: suryc on July 03, 2013, 09:51:23 PM All sales are final is in itself illegal. As long as they can't deliver the item on the day you want your refund they have to give you the refund. That is common business pratice and even law in some countries... Any good lawyer or judge will tell you its all in the wording, and BFL uses it well. And I quote " Bitforce SC (ASIC) products are shipped according to placement in the order queue, and delivery may take 2 months or more after order. All sales are final." The statement of "2 months or more" makes denying you a refund legal. The only way it becomes illegal is if they never deliver the product....ever. If they discontinue the item and say that it will never ship, THEN you are legally owed a refund. But, when you paid for your item, they essentially told you it would take at least 2 months. They never promised before a certain time frame. Some people have been able to successfully get refunds, and that is totally at the companies discretion. Its no different that buying a product with a warranty, and then that product breaking after that warranty has expired. They company promised that under normal use, their product will last ATLEAST that long. Anything beyond that, they do not have to fix/repair, but if they choose to do it then thats their own discretion. Same also applies to returns and countless other policies in place everyday. You are completely incorrect in your understanding of the legal precedent around this issue. U.S. Consumer Protection Laws are very clear. If they have not actually shipped the merchandise, they cannot deny your request for a refund, regardless of what terms and conditions they have in some arbitrary corner of their website. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: k9quaint on July 03, 2013, 09:54:03 PM All sales are final is in itself illegal. As long as they can't deliver the item on the day you want your refund they have to give you the refund. That is common business pratice and even law in some countries... Any good lawyer or judge will tell you its all in the wording, and BFL uses it well. And I quote " Bitforce SC (ASIC) products are shipped according to placement in the order queue, and delivery may take 2 months or more after order. All sales are final." The statement of "2 months or more" makes denying you a refund legal. The only way it becomes illegal is if they never deliver the product....ever. If they discontinue the item and say that it will never ship, THEN you are legally owed a refund. But, when you paid for your item, they essentially told you it would take at least 2 months. They never promised before a certain time frame. Some people have been able to successfully get refunds, and that is totally at the companies discretion. Its no different that buying a product with a warranty, and then that product breaking after that warranty has expired. They company promised that under normal use, their product will last ATLEAST that long. Anything beyond that, they do not have to fix/repair, but if they choose to do it then thats their own discretion. Same also applies to returns and countless other policies in place everyday. You are completely incorrect in your understanding of the legal precedent around this issue. U.S. Consumer Protection Laws are very clear. If they have not actually shipped the merchandise, they cannot deny your request for a refund, regardless of what terms and conditions they have in some arbitrary corner of their website. ^^This It is amazing to me how the BFL fanbois will excuse almost any behavior by the company, up to and including refusing their customers refunds. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Paladin69 on July 03, 2013, 09:54:32 PM Yes if you haven't received your refund by now you can file complaint with the Federal trade commission. They will advocate for you and make sure you get your funds.
https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/ You can do this with any product if the business is located in the US. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Zanatos666 on July 03, 2013, 09:59:02 PM All sales are final is in itself illegal. As long as they can't deliver the item on the day you want your refund they have to give you the refund. That is common business pratice and even law in some countries... Any good lawyer or judge will tell you its all in the wording, and BFL uses it well. And I quote " Bitforce SC (ASIC) products are shipped according to placement in the order queue, and delivery may take 2 months or more after order. All sales are final." The statement of "2 months or more" makes denying you a refund legal. The only way it becomes illegal is if they never deliver the product....ever. If they discontinue the item and say that it will never ship, THEN you are legally owed a refund. But, when you paid for your item, they essentially told you it would take at least 2 months. They never promised before a certain time frame. Some people have been able to successfully get refunds, and that is totally at the companies discretion. Its no different that buying a product with a warranty, and then that product breaking after that warranty has expired. They company promised that under normal use, their product will last ATLEAST that long. Anything beyond that, they do not have to fix/repair, but if they choose to do it then thats their own discretion. Same also applies to returns and countless other policies in place everyday. You are completely incorrect in your understanding of the legal precedent around this issue. U.S. Consumer Protection Laws are very clear. If they have not actually shipped the merchandise, they cannot deny your request for a refund, regardless of what terms and conditions they have in some arbitrary corner of their website. ^^This It is amazing to me how the BFL fanbois will excuse almost any behavior by the company, up to and including refusing their customers refunds. Fanboy I am not. Yes, I have a Jalapeno, but I also ordered mine in July 2012. So, someone who ordered 2 months ago who is upset about not getting a refund, I say to them, what do you say to the person who has waited almost a year to get their unit? I refer you to my post below and the FTC laws governing All Sales Finals and the legality of them offering refunds. Like it or not, they are within their legal right to deny a refund, just like you are within your legal right to ask for, and put in a claim for one. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=249125.msg2648214#msg2648214 Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: PuertoLibre on July 03, 2013, 10:05:59 PM If what you said were actually true, I could sell something with a disclaimer that says:
" iBitPush (ASIC) products are shipped according to placement in the order queue, and delivery may take 2 months or more after order. All sales are final." I therefore could sell a totally bogus product that doesn't exist and perpetually keep the customer "on hold" indefinitely because of "endless delays". (Or at the very least 1 year and some days...and counting.) Sounds good right? That is the point you are making. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Mota on July 03, 2013, 10:07:37 PM Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: k9quaint on July 03, 2013, 10:10:12 PM All sales are final is in itself illegal. As long as they can't deliver the item on the day you want your refund they have to give you the refund. That is common business pratice and even law in some countries... Any good lawyer or judge will tell you its all in the wording, and BFL uses it well. And I quote " Bitforce SC (ASIC) products are shipped according to placement in the order queue, and delivery may take 2 months or more after order. All sales are final." The statement of "2 months or more" makes denying you a refund legal. The only way it becomes illegal is if they never deliver the product....ever. If they discontinue the item and say that it will never ship, THEN you are legally owed a refund. But, when you paid for your item, they essentially told you it would take at least 2 months. They never promised before a certain time frame. Some people have been able to successfully get refunds, and that is totally at the companies discretion. Its no different that buying a product with a warranty, and then that product breaking after that warranty has expired. They company promised that under normal use, their product will last ATLEAST that long. Anything beyond that, they do not have to fix/repair, but if they choose to do it then thats their own discretion. Same also applies to returns and countless other policies in place everyday. You are completely incorrect in your understanding of the legal precedent around this issue. U.S. Consumer Protection Laws are very clear. If they have not actually shipped the merchandise, they cannot deny your request for a refund, regardless of what terms and conditions they have in some arbitrary corner of their website. ^^This It is amazing to me how the BFL fanbois will excuse almost any behavior by the company, up to and including refusing their customers refunds. Fanboy I am not. Yes, I have a Jalapeno, but I also ordered mine in July 2012. So, someone who ordered 2 months ago who is upset about not getting a refund, I say to them, what do you say to the person who has waited almost a year to get their unit? I refer you to my post below and the FTC laws governing All Sales Finals and the legality of them offering refunds. Like it or not, they are within their legal right to deny a refund, just like you are within your legal right to ask for, and put in a claim for one. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=249125.msg2648214#msg2648214 What you posted deals with when the seller must make information available, not when they must refund their customers. The rules that govern when a seller must refund are here: http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule Specifically after you missed your shipping date or 30 day window: When You Must Cancel an Order You must cancel an order and provide a prompt refund when: the customer exercises any option to cancel before you ship the merchandise In any case, people who want refunds from BFL can go to the FTC. People who don't believe that the FTC will help with refunds can sit on their thumbs. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Trongersoll on July 03, 2013, 10:33:12 PM I'm pretty sure that if no product has been delivered, then no sale has been made.
Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Syke on July 03, 2013, 10:46:36 PM Quote You must cancel an order and provide a prompt refund when: the customer exercises any option to cancel before you ship the merchandise; That's pretty clear. If the merchandise has not been shipped, the customer may exercise his option to cancel and you must refund him. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: af_newbie on July 03, 2013, 10:52:34 PM All sales are final is in itself illegal. As long as they can't deliver the item on the day you want your refund they have to give you the refund. That is common business pratice and even law in some countries... Any good lawyer or judge will tell you its all in the wording, and BFL uses it well. And I quote " Bitforce SC (ASIC) products are shipped according to placement in the order queue, and delivery may take 2 months or more after order. All sales are final." The statement of "2 months or more" makes denying you a refund legal. The only way it becomes illegal is if they never deliver the product....ever. If they discontinue the item and say that it will never ship, THEN you are legally owed a refund. But, when you paid for your item, they essentially told you it would take at least 2 months. They never promised before a certain time frame. Some people have been able to successfully get refunds, and that is totally at the companies discretion. Its no different that buying a product with a warranty, and then that product breaking after that warranty has expired. They company promised that under normal use, their product will last ATLEAST that long. Anything beyond that, they do not have to fix/repair, but if they choose to do it then thats their own discretion. Same also applies to returns and countless other policies in place everyday. I guess you'd have to argue what is a "sale". Some might say that sale occurs when the payment is made and product is delivered (sale is completed). Anything in between is not a sale. "All sales are final" might refer to "no returns of working products, and/or refunds for any reason". "2 months or more" might refer to many months (6-7?), but probably not years. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: newguy05 on July 03, 2013, 10:54:16 PM I'm pretty sure that if no product has been delivered, then no sale has been made. exactly, if they delivered the product and the customer wants to return it then the "all sales are final" clause can be argued if taken to small claim court. If they never delivered the product to begin with, it doesnt apply, you can goto any court in any state or county, and will be ordered to refund the payment back to the customer. Of course to find a "BFL" legal entity or an individual to take to court is a different matter entirely, as far as i know bfl is completely anonymous, just some website ran by a bunch unknown individuals. There is no legal LLC or legal ownership established. So who are you going to sue to get your money back if paid via btc or wire? Only way is to go through the criminal route, but the feds wont even look at it if it's less than 7 figures, and if the individual are outside of the US you can completely forget about it. Making things even more complicated, btc is not considered a legal currency in US, so it's no different than if you paid with peanuts to the US legal system, or any country for that matter. Bottomline if you paid with btc, you are at the complete mercy of BFL. I kept saying it's insane the level of trust people here have and willing to part with their hard earned money/btc on some hopes & dreams without any recourse of getting the money back, but kept getting flamed. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: k9quaint on July 03, 2013, 11:04:15 PM I'm pretty sure that if no product has been delivered, then no sale has been made. exactly, if they delivered the product and the customer wants to return it then the "all sales are final" clause can be argued if taken to small claim court. If they never delivered the product to begin with, it doesnt apply, you can goto any court in any state or county, and will be ordered to refund the payment back to the customer. Of course to find a "BFL" legal entity or an individual to take to court is a different matter entirely, as far as i know bfl is completely anonymous, just some website ran by a bunch unknown individuals. There is no legal LLC or legal ownership established. So who are you going to sue to get your money back if paid via btc or wire? Only way is to go through the criminal route, but the feds wont even look at it if it's less than 7 figures, and if the individual are outside of the US you can completely forget about it. Making things even more complicated, btc is not considered a legal currency in US, so it's no different than if you paid with peanuts to the US legal system, or any country for that matter. Bottomline if you paid with btc, you are at the complete mercy of BFL. I kept saying it's insane the level of trust people here have and willing to part with their hard earned money/btc on some hopes & dreams without any recourse of getting the money back, but kept getting flamed. You start by suing the "owner" of the website. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Syke on July 03, 2013, 11:05:06 PM Of course to find a "BFL" legal entity or an individual to take to court is a different matter entirely, as far as i know bfl is completely anonymous, just some website ran by a bunch unknown individuals. There is no legal LLC or legal ownership established. So who are you going to sue to get your money back if paid via btc or wire? Only way is to go through the criminal route, but the feds wont even look at it if it's less than 7 figures, and if the individual are outside of the US you can completely forget about it. https://wyobiz.wy.gov/Business/FilingDetails.aspx?eFNum=149144214231010201167112190255028042109060235081 BFL is a US corporation, but the owners are unknown. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Trongersoll on July 03, 2013, 11:10:51 PM Of course to find a "BFL" legal entity or an individual to take to court is a different matter entirely, as far as i know bfl is completely anonymous, just some website ran by a bunch unknown individuals. There is no legal LLC or legal ownership established. So who are you going to sue to get your money back if paid via btc or wire? Only way is to go through the criminal route, but the feds wont even look at it if it's less than 7 figures, and if the individual are outside of the US you can completely forget about it. https://wyobiz.wy.gov/Business/FilingDetails.aspx?eFNum=149144214231010201167112190255028042109060235081 BFL is a US corporation, but the owners are unknown. Depending on how pissed you are, there is always a way. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: newguy05 on July 04, 2013, 01:16:42 AM Of course to find a "BFL" legal entity or an individual to take to court is a different matter entirely, as far as i know bfl is completely anonymous, just some website ran by a bunch unknown individuals. There is no legal LLC or legal ownership established. So who are you going to sue to get your money back if paid via btc or wire? Only way is to go through the criminal route, but the feds wont even look at it if it's less than 7 figures, and if the individual are outside of the US you can completely forget about it. https://wyobiz.wy.gov/Business/FilingDetails.aspx?eFNum=149144214231010201167112190255028042109060235081 BFL is a US corporation, but the owners are unknown. rofl they actually did a corp? okie i didnt know that, then you can take them to court, there is no owner as it's a corp, you go after the entity itself. Of course it's almost guaranteed they will file for bankruptcy if enough people try. You can then go after the officers/directors themselves if you can show criminal(fraud) took place. The shareholders for the corp can also sue the management for misleading the investors, but in this case it's probably all the same people anyway. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: solitude on July 04, 2013, 01:31:07 AM There has to be at least one pre-orderer taking legal action by now, right?
Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: PuertoLibre on July 04, 2013, 05:39:34 AM Yes. ;)
Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Viceroy on July 04, 2013, 05:47:09 AM If you have evidence BFL have broken the law, please post here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=247310.0 If you are seeking a refund or have been denied a refund please post here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=248447.0 Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: PuertoLibre on July 04, 2013, 10:27:39 AM http://s23.postimg.org/vcr2nk7wb/Call_Us_Immediately.png? Are they finally done shipping?Does this mean they are shipping at light speed? Why the no refund clause if they haven't even started on sending Little Singles? (To the best of my knowledge.) By the way, can anyone change the above from "Near" to "Here"? Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: solitude on July 04, 2013, 03:57:10 PM by BFL_Jody , 06-12-2013 at 09:48 PM
We shipped most Jalapeno orders through August 22 today. And I hear that 2 Single SC's shipped. Sorry to be late with that awesome news. It is now nearly a month since they've been claiming to be shipping June 23rd, 2012 orders for Singles Time to bring in the lawyers, this company is going down. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Loredo on July 04, 2013, 04:03:09 PM There has to be at least one pre-orderer taking legal action by now, right? Remember that once someone files a civil action, their attorneys almost always insist that they refrain from any public discussion of the matter, up to and including even acknowledging the existence of the action. But, as answered above, IMO the answer to your question is almost certainly "yes." Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: af_newbie on July 04, 2013, 04:08:51 PM Of course to find a "BFL" legal entity or an individual to take to court is a different matter entirely, as far as i know bfl is completely anonymous, just some website ran by a bunch unknown individuals. There is no legal LLC or legal ownership established. So who are you going to sue to get your money back if paid via btc or wire? Only way is to go through the criminal route, but the feds wont even look at it if it's less than 7 figures, and if the individual are outside of the US you can completely forget about it. https://wyobiz.wy.gov/Business/FilingDetails.aspx?eFNum=149144214231010201167112190255028042109060235081 BFL is a US corporation, but the owners are unknown. Directors are listed under "Parties" in the link you provided. They are probably the sole owners. President / Director CHRIS VLEISIDES 2507 JEFFERSON KANSAS CITY, MO 64108 President / Director Nasser Ghoseiri https://maps.google.ca/maps?q=2507+Jefferson+Street,+Kansas+City,+MO+64108,+United+States&hl=en&ll=39.080216,-94.587178&spn=0.007104,0.016512&sll=39.081892,-94.592591&layer=c&cbp=13,73.33,,0,-4.71&cbll=39.08191,-94.592809&hnear=2507+Jefferson+St,+Kansas+City,+Jackson,+Missouri+64108,+United+States&t=m&z=17&panoid=1reGHDNoXchP-QvCXIXP4A Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Frizz23 on July 04, 2013, 04:46:31 PM Directors are listed under "Parties" in the link you provided. They are probably the sole owners. President / Director CHRIS VLEISIDES 2507 JEFFERSON KANSAS CITY, MO 64108 2507 JEFFERSON KANSAS CITY, MO 64108 looks like this here :o (the door plate indeed says "Chris Vleisides") http://s1.directupload.net/images/130704/9yc4ihjk.png Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: jdape on July 04, 2013, 09:32:08 PM Wow. Between this and the pictures of the Mini Rigs held together with black tape, hot glue, and velcro, I'm glad I cancelled.
Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: SpaceCaptainKangaroo on July 05, 2013, 12:43:54 AM https://forums.butterflylabs.com/pre-sales-questions/3675-refund-policy.html
https://i.imgur.com/lWCWk9a.png https://i.imgur.com/30IUkLO.png https://i.imgur.com/Tvhnzof.png Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: k9quaint on July 05, 2013, 01:10:23 AM Before:
Hypothetically, what do you think a company, faced with all pre-orders canceled, yet holding onto hundreds of TH of mining equipment is going to do? Say "Oh noes! Bye!" ... or do you think they'd press that hardware into service? After:Yes, by all means, cancel all the orders, lets see how well that ends up working out. For the record, BFL is capable of refunding all of the preorders in the queue and remaining in business. Would we have to pare down on employees? Sure we would, but then again, we wouldn't need so many employees if we aren't doing customer service anyway. https://forums.butterflylabs.com/pre-sales-questions/3675-refund-policy.html https://i.imgur.com/lWCWk9a.png https://i.imgur.com/30IUkLO.png https://i.imgur.com/Tvhnzof.png The internet always remembers. :D Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Syke on July 05, 2013, 01:11:06 AM https://forums.butterflylabs.com/pre-sales-questions/3675-refund-policy.html It is sure nice of them to change their policies after people have already placed orders. Such integrity! Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: PaperClip on July 05, 2013, 03:15:12 AM They have sold units with no refund policy as of day 1. Even with this policy, it was possible to ask for refund and they were accepting them. Then they have double checked order status with every customer, providing refund to everyone who wants, notifying that refunds will be completely canceled soon. Is it not enough? Maybe they should have go to every customer doorstep to personally tell them "do not wait for your unit for 4 more months, take back your money instead"?
And now after all this - somebody thinks that he is special and all previous communications and notifications are not applied to him. Are you serious? Where have you been 2 months ago, when difficulty scyrocketed, and BFL was considered as scam? Now it is even better situation for BFL customers than before, they have a lot of confirmations that company is not scam. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Bicknellski on July 05, 2013, 03:29:36 AM They have sold units with no refund policy as of day 1. Even with this policy, it was possible to ask for refund and they were accepting them. Then they have double checked order status with every customer, providing refund to everyone who wants, notifying that refunds will be completely canceled soon. Is it not enough? Maybe they should have go to every customer doorstep to personally tell them "do not wait for your unit for 4 more months, take back your money instead"? And now after all this - somebody thinks that he is special and all previous communications and notifications are not applied to him. Are you serious? Where have you been 2 months ago, when difficulty scyrocketed, and BFL was considered as scam? Now it is even better situation for BFL customers than before, they have a lot of confirmations that company is not scam. IS BFL BREAKING THE LAW? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=247310.msg2625104#msg2625104 Flying Hellfish Writes: Quote Since they have stopped issuing refunds it certainly appears to me (IANAL) they are at least breaking FTC regulations. It would seem that UNTIL the product is physically shipped a customer has the right to cancel their order (for ANY reason) and the company MUST issue a prompt refund. Below is quoted from the link at the FTC site (bolded is mine) When You Must Cancel an Order You must cancel an order and provide a prompt refund when: •the customer exercises any option to cancel before you ship the merchandise; •the customer does not respond to your first notice of a definite revised shipment date of 30 days or less and you have not shipped the merchandise or received the customer’s consent to a further delay by the definite revised shipment date; •the customer does not respond to your notice of a definite revised shipment date of more than 30 days (or your notice that you are unable to provide a definite revised shipment date) and you have not shipped the merchandise within 30 days of the original shipment date; •the customer consents to a definite delay and you have not shipped or obtained the customer’s consent to any additional delay by the shipment time the customer consented to; •you have not shipped or provided the required delay or renewed option notices on time; or •you determine that you will never be able to ship the merchandise. http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: SpaceCaptainKangaroo on July 05, 2013, 05:10:07 AM Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Bicknellski on July 05, 2013, 05:41:23 AM Wow. Between this and the pictures of the Mini Rigs held together with black tape, hot glue, and velcro, I'm glad I cancelled. +1 snicker. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: YipYip on July 05, 2013, 06:02:45 AM Not Long Now ....
Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Unacceptable on July 05, 2013, 06:28:23 AM If you want a refund,just whine louder!!!!
Glad I don't have to deal with them anymore ;D & NEVER again :P Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: BTCscraper on July 05, 2013, 07:05:30 AM There's no reason for BFL not to refund. They don't need to stop refunds to order the right amount of parts because I'm sure people are still ordering (new orders replacing refunded ones), and any parts left can be used to build miners that BFL can use by themselves.
Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: PuertoLibre on July 05, 2013, 07:07:56 AM http://s23.postimg.org/vcr2nk7wb/Call_Us_Immediately.png
If you want a refund,just whine louder!!!! Glad I don't have to deal with them anymore ;D & NEVER again :P I think everyone is just entering into panic because: A) The price of Bitcoin is down almost 30% in the last week. (PANIC!) B) The enormous amount of ASICs are making BTC very hard to mine. And this is barely the tip of the iceberg. (PANIC x2) C) BFL's customer base has become aware that they are being royally screwed. I am cheering BFL on. Because they are keeping those that didn't want to see the signs a virtual hostage with their money. In which case, they (BFL) are making these customers stick with their decision. They no longer have a choice in the matter. Shouldn't we rejoice that BFL customers had enough wisdom to rush the refund window all at the same time at the very last second? Now they will get ASICs that will cost them money and not actually make them any (unless they purchased a large lot). (In my opinion.) Hopefully when the BFL customers get desperate and all begin selling off their hardware, people like us will snatch it up on pennies on the dollar. Let them all sell it off at discounted prices. Those of you buying these at disenchanted prices, make sure to hold out for a good deal. Lets start with 50% purchase price. Then work our way down from there. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: YipYip on July 05, 2013, 12:49:05 PM http://s23.postimg.org/vcr2nk7wb/Call_Us_Immediately.png If you want a refund,just whine louder!!!! Glad I don't have to deal with them anymore ;D & NEVER again :P I think everyone is just entering into panic because: A) The price of Bitcoin is down almost 30% in the last week. (PANIC!) B) The enormous amount of ASICs are making BTC very hard to mine. And this is barely the tip of the iceberg. (PANIC x2) C) BFL's customer base has become aware that they are being royally screwed. I am cheering BFL on. Because they are keeping those that didn't want to see the signs a virtual hostage with their money. In which case, they (BFL) are making these customers stick with their decision. They no longer have a choice in the matter. Shouldn't we rejoice that BFL customers had enough wisdom to rush the refund window all at the same time at the very last second? Now they will get ASICs that will cost them money and not actually make them any (unless they purchased a large lot). (In my opinion.) Hopefully when the BFL customers get desperate and all begin selling off their hardware, people like us will snatch it up on pennies on the dollar. Let them all sell it off at discounted prices. Those of you buying these at disenchanted prices, make sure to hold out for a good deal. Lets start with 50% purchase price. Then work our way down from there. Agreed We have so many things to thank BFL that we should really be praising them !! 1) Litecoin would not be in this fantastic and in some ways dominant position that it is without BFL locking all those funds and forcing a lot of die hard BTC guys to look at LTC as a true alternative 2) Anybody who would buy ASIC's in this climate has rocks in their head... having said that I think when the arse falls out of ASIC's i I agree @ 50% pricing BTC even starts to look good to me...lolz 3) And last but not least the never ending comedy act that is Josh Zerhlan and his conman crew delivering the never ending pearls of wisdom of customer relations and how to totally alienate a complete community in short but rather intresting lessons ...the thing that gets me is that "He Thinks" that he is being so totally paitient and understanding in his dealings with all.... the guy gets my vote for the 2013 "Delusional" awards I think we have entered the home stretch and over the next 1-2 months all of BFL's chicken's are going to come home to roost ...i.e all the lies and double dealings and legal problems are going to drop out of the sky and hit them like a meteor Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: erk on July 05, 2013, 03:16:03 PM Kansas, the state where BFL are located, has extensive consumer protection legislation, you might want to review some.
http://kansasstatutes.lesterama.org/Chapter_50/Article_6/ I would imagine that a web sale would fall under the telemarketing legislation, which entitles the consumer to a refund right up until 7 days after taking delivery of the goods or service. So don't fall for the all sales are final ploy, do your research. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Loredo on July 05, 2013, 03:50:18 PM The internet always remembers. :D What an absolute hoot. You just couldn't make this shit up. In the screen shots in the quoted post, of the posts by an individual named "BFL_Josh (member type: employee)," he stated yesterday that one of the reasons they closed the refund window was because BFL isn't a hedge for your bitcoin investment. For most people, still, the question is: "what bitcoin investment?" For them, all they've done is sent cash or bitcoins to somebody in Kansas City (the Silicon Valley of the Bible Belt), and most are still waiting and hoping for the best, including some, now, who would like to stop waiting. BFL isn't anybody's bitcoin hedge. BFL is what a lot of people still need to hedge against. Feckin' classic. :D Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: PaperClip on July 05, 2013, 03:57:37 PM Hopefully when the BFL customers get desperate and all begin selling off their hardware, people like us will snatch it up on pennies on the dollar. Let them all sell it off at discounted prices. Wisdom in its finest form :)Dear everyone-who-now-has-changed-his-mind-and-want-a-refund, Stop acting like child and start to sell your preordered BFL units on ebay. Let me help you: http://www.ebay.com/ (http://www.ebay.com/) Thank you for your cooperation. Best Regards, PaperClip Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Loredo on July 05, 2013, 04:12:57 PM In which case, they (BFL) are making these customers stick with their decision. They no longer have a choice in the matter. Shouldn't we rejoice that BFL customers had enough wisdom to rush the refund window all at the same time at the very last second? While, generally, I try to control the emotions of Schadenfreude, and keep it business, sometimes, it seeps through.Now they will get ASICs that will cost them money and not actually make them any When, in March or April, BFL ran the game called "We're getting ready to ship now. Reconfirm and lock in your order now or we'll refund you now, and nevermore", there was nothing but rejoicing in the BFL camp, and mocking of those who had been questioning things all along. We think we should try to be sympathetic, though. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Paladin69 on July 05, 2013, 07:27:17 PM Yes if you haven't received your refund by now you can file complaint with the Federal trade commission. They will advocate for you and make sure you get your funds. https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/ You can do this with any product if the business is located in the US. bump Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: PuertoLibre on July 05, 2013, 08:38:33 PM Reach out to some news station and get a chance to air your story with a troubled company:
Main Page: http://www.kmbc.com/news/9-can-help Contact Info: http://www.kmbc.com/news/9-can-help/Got-a-problem-Contact-9-Can-Help/-/14588640/14597360/-/yr8m5jz/-/index.html KMBC 9 News investigation Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Paladin69 on July 05, 2013, 09:13:04 PM It looks like you can also file a complaint to the Attorney General of Kansas City directly. Not sure if you need to be a citizen of Kansas City or not...
http://ag.ks.gov/ http://da.jocogov.org/complaint-forms Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Flying Hellfish on July 05, 2013, 09:57:43 PM Kansas, the state where BFL are located, has extensive consumer protection legislation, you might want to review some. http://kansasstatutes.lesterama.org/Chapter_50/Article_6/ I would imagine that a web sale would fall under the telemarketing legislation, which entitles the consumer to a refund right up until 7 days after taking delivery of the goods or service. So don't fall for the all sales are final ploy, do your research. BFL is more likely a mail order business than a telemarketing business, however I will say from what I have read and understand BFL not honouring refund request is at least against FTC regulations, I am also quite sure there are tons of other consumer protection laws on the state and municipal level that deal with this stuff but its pretty clear to most rational people that you can not just take a consumers money and if you have yet to deliver the product you tell them to go pound salt and tell them we will deliver when we deliver. This is the actual FTC link that talks about mail order business and delivery and refunding. From the description there it certainly appears as though BFL falls in the mail order business. http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: PuertoLibre on July 05, 2013, 11:18:48 PM Butterfly Labs @ The Better Business Bureau
http://www.bbb.org/us/Find-Business-Reviews/name/Butterfly+labs/ BBB Reviews for Butterfly Labs: http://www.bbb.org/kansas-city/business-reviews/telecommunication-equipment-and-systems-dealers/butterfly-labs-in-kansas-city-mo-1000002011 How to File a Complaint: https://www.bbb.org/consumer-complaints/file-a-complaint/get-started/?source=cibr&bbbid=0674&bid=1000002011 Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Loredo on July 06, 2013, 02:06:01 AM Do note, though, that the Better Business Bureau has no official capacity. In fact, I believe that a business pays the BBB to become a member and to receive a rating.
So, while membership in good standing is evidence of good will on the part of a business, not being a member is not itself evidence of ill will. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: YipYip on July 06, 2013, 02:31:22 AM Kansas, the state where BFL are located, has extensive consumer protection legislation, you might want to review some. http://kansasstatutes.lesterama.org/Chapter_50/Article_6/ I would imagine that a web sale would fall under the telemarketing legislation, which entitles the consumer to a refund right up until 7 days after taking delivery of the goods or service. So don't fall for the all sales are final ploy, do your research. erk whats this trying to change sides are we....lol You are a BFL shill so please remember your place is to try and fill the world with more BFL bullshit Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Phinnaeus Gage on July 06, 2013, 07:27:52 AM Reach out to some news station and get a chance to air your story with a troubled company: Main Page: http://www.kmbc.com/news/9-can-help Contact Info: http://www.kmbc.com/news/9-can-help/Got-a-problem-Contact-9-Can-Help/-/14588640/14597360/-/yr8m5jz/-/index.html KMBC 9 News investigation You're a mother fuckin' mind reader. The first time one of them BFLers say "No comment!", their mailbox will begin to get filled with even more refund requests. At least BFL will have one ace up their sleeve: Pay for more advertising on this forum to garner more sales. Remember last year when all the buzz was about working 24/7 on the holiday days? Name one day BFL had a full complement of workers at their facility on a holiday. Even better, name any day where crews working 24/7. As far as I can tell, there's still a swarm of locusts in the unemployment line, and that's only if the temp assemblers didn't ear them. http://www.bugbog.com/images/galleries/mexico-pictures-b/mexican-food-grasshoppers.jpg Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: PuertoLibre on July 06, 2013, 07:32:20 AM Reach out to some news station and get a chance to air your story with a troubled company: Main Page: http://www.kmbc.com/news/9-can-help Contact Info: http://www.kmbc.com/news/9-can-help/Got-a-problem-Contact-9-Can-Help/-/14588640/14597360/-/yr8m5jz/-/index.html KMBC 9 News investigation You're a mother fuckin' mind reader. The first time one of them BFLers say "No comment!", their mailbox will begin to get filled with even more refund requests. At least BFL will have one ace up their sleeve: Pay for more advertising on this forum to garner more sales. Remember last year when all the buzz was about working 24/7 on the holiday days? Name one day BFL had a full complement of workers at their facility on a holiday. Even better, name any day where crews working 24/7. As far as I can tell, there's still a swarm of locusts in the unemployment line, and that's only if the temp assemblers didn't ear them. http://www.bugbog.com/images/galleries/mexico-pictures-b/mexican-food-grasshoppers.jpg They never keep their promises, do they? Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: scambutterflylabs on July 06, 2013, 08:27:08 AM Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: KarmaShark on July 06, 2013, 11:22:55 AM http://s23.postimg.org/vcr2nk7wb/Call_Us_Immediately.png If you want a refund,just whine louder!!!! Glad I don't have to deal with them anymore ;D & NEVER again :P I think everyone is just entering into panic because: A) The price of Bitcoin is down almost 30% in the last week. (PANIC!) B) The enormous amount of ASICs are making BTC very hard to mine. And this is barely the tip of the iceberg. (PANIC x2) C) BFL's customer base has become aware that they are being royally screwed. I am cheering BFL on. Because they are keeping those that didn't want to see the signs a virtual hostage with their money. In which case, they (BFL) are making these customers stick with their decision. They no longer have a choice in the matter. Shouldn't we rejoice that BFL customers had enough wisdom to rush the refund window all at the same time at the very last second? Now they will get ASICs that will cost them money and not actually make them any (unless they purchased a large lot). (In my opinion.) Hopefully when the BFL customers get desperate and all begin selling off their hardware, people like us will snatch it up on pennies on the dollar. Let them all sell it off at discounted prices. Those of you buying these at disenchanted prices, make sure to hold out for a good deal. Lets start with 50% purchase price. Then work our way down from there. For all of the coverage the BFL Long-Con has received, this is the first time I have seen someone give this perspective. To anyone involved in ฿ intelligent enough to not do business with BFL, you really have to be thrilled about what they have been able to pull off, on a personal level. You can thank BFL for the following: - Herding the most gullible and naive Bitcoin investors together and cleaning them out of all of some / all of their $ or ฿'s, thus removing them from the market. Their purchasing power is gone and they are no longer competing with yours to drive up prices. BFL customers have made us all wealthier. - ASICMINER has been given the market, thanks in large part to their #2 or #3 challenger offering them a full 12-14 month head start. Any rare BFL hardware that does make it to an investor will now have to compete in a sea of outperforming hardware of scale. BFL has essentially taken $ and ฿ directly from clueless investors and redistributed that bounty back into the network, down the grapevine and into ASICMINER shareholders pockets. - 50-75% hardware blow-outs on BFL's gear are coming this Fall. For the few remaining marks left in the BFL camp, the odds of receiving hardware that works AND is profitable is becoming a pipe dream. Queue the flood of BFL pre-order fire sales taking place in the Auctions forum on this very site and Ebay. This is what should happen, intelligent investors that had the sense to stay away from BFL can now use their $ or ฿ to buy up the bilked investors discounted hardware. This allows someone to still make a net return on the hardware, and that is how it should be in this case. The free market punishes lack of foresight, impatience and naivete. It rewards vision, mental strength and timing. The BFL scandal is a wonderful example of how this industry attracts both types of investors in droves, and why shamelessly (and obviously) bilking the most gullible of them is still a profitable business venture. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: erk on July 06, 2013, 11:57:55 AM For all of the coverage the BFL Long-Con has received, this is the first time I have seen someone give this perspective. To anyone involved in ฿ intelligent enough to not do business with BFL, you really have to be thrilled about what they have been able to pull off, on a personal level. You can thank BFL for the following: - Herding the most gullible and naive Bitcoin investors together and cleaning them out of all of some / all of their $ or ฿'s, thus removing them from the market. Their purchasing power is gone and they are no longer competing with yours to drive up prices. BFL customers have made us all wealthier. - ASICMINER has been given the market, thanks in large part to their #2 or #3 challenger offering them a full 12-14 month head start. Any rare BFL hardware that does make it to an investor will now have to compete in a sea of outperforming hardware of scale. BFL has essentially taken $ and ฿ directly from clueless investors and redistributed that bounty back into the network, down the grapevine and into ASICMINER shareholders pockets. - 50-75% hardware blow-outs on BFL's gear are coming this Fall. For the few remaining marks left in the BFL camp, the odds of receiving hardware that works AND is profitable is becoming a pipe dream. Queue the flood of BFL pre-order fire sales taking place in the Auctions forum on this very site and Ebay. This is what should happen, intelligent investors that had the sense to stay away from BFL can now use their $ or ฿ to buy up the bilked investors discounted hardware. This allows someone to still make a net return on the hardware, and that is how it should be in this case. The free market punishes lack of foresight, impatience and naivete. It rewards vision, mental strength and timing. The BFL scandal is a wonderful example of how this industry attracts both types of investors in droves, and why shamelessly (and obviously) bilking the most gullible of them is still a profitable business venture. Welcome to my ignore list. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: domoblur on July 06, 2013, 01:54:18 PM For those of you with significant preorders "investments" with BFL, I'd suggest you'd seek refunds soon through whichever avenue you choose. You want to be at the front of the refund line and not at the end. Soon the company will be looted and then protected by bankruptcy laws. It will then be unlikely you will see your funds nor any miner.
Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Loredo on July 06, 2013, 03:03:42 PM For all of the coverage the BFL Long-Con has received, this is the first time I have seen someone give this perspective. To anyone involved in ฿ intelligent enough to not do business with BFL, you really have to be thrilled about what they have been able to pull off, on a personal level. You can thank BFL for the following: Can't agree with everything in your point of view, but there is one thing which is certainly true. ... The BFL scandal is a wonderful example of how this industry attracts both types of investors in droves, and why shamelessly (and obviously) bilking the most gullible of them is still a profitable business venture. In high tech, often, the first adopters lose their financial investment. But the hardware is built and functioning, and, then, after the "fire sales," the economic balance between cost and value are restored. Think, e.g., of the amount of fiber run below the streets and rights of way in the late 1990's, dark for a decade, now carrying the expanding backbone. Think of the Iridium satellites, unprofitable until the pennies-on-dollar sale restored the only truly global satellite phone service. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: k9quaint on July 06, 2013, 04:21:30 PM For all of the coverage the BFL Long-Con has received, this is the first time I have seen someone give this perspective. To anyone involved in ฿ intelligent enough to not do business with BFL, you really have to be thrilled about what they have been able to pull off, on a personal level. You can thank BFL for the following: - Herding the most gullible and naive Bitcoin investors together and cleaning them out of all of some / all of their $ or ฿'s, thus removing them from the market. Their purchasing power is gone and they are no longer competing with yours to drive up prices. BFL customers have made us all wealthier. - ASICMINER has been given the market, thanks in large part to their #2 or #3 challenger offering them a full 12-14 month head start. Any rare BFL hardware that does make it to an investor will now have to compete in a sea of outperforming hardware of scale. BFL has essentially taken $ and ฿ directly from clueless investors and redistributed that bounty back into the network, down the grapevine and into ASICMINER shareholders pockets. - 50-75% hardware blow-outs on BFL's gear are coming this Fall. For the few remaining marks left in the BFL camp, the odds of receiving hardware that works AND is profitable is becoming a pipe dream. Queue the flood of BFL pre-order fire sales taking place in the Auctions forum on this very site and Ebay. This is what should happen, intelligent investors that had the sense to stay away from BFL can now use their $ or ฿ to buy up the bilked investors discounted hardware. This allows someone to still make a net return on the hardware, and that is how it should be in this case. The free market punishes lack of foresight, impatience and naivete. It rewards vision, mental strength and timing. The BFL scandal is a wonderful example of how this industry attracts both types of investors in droves, and why shamelessly (and obviously) bilking the most gullible of them is still a profitable business venture. Welcome to my ignore list. Erk ignores anything that disagrees with his point of view. He probably has half the forum ignored by now. From his little echo chamber, BFL is the greatest company on earth and all of it's customers are happy. Plus, he probably gets paid for ButterShilling (TM). Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Loredo on July 06, 2013, 09:58:11 PM Erk ignores anything that disagrees with his point of view. He probably has half the forum ignored by now. If you believe that to be true (and I ain't saying it isn't plausible any more than I'm saying it's wrong) then consider this:From his little echo chamber, BFL is the greatest company on earth and all of it's customers are happy. Plus, he probably gets paid for ButterShilling (TM). A ways above, he was directing people to the Kansas state consumer protection laws, and associating the activities of BFL with telemarketing. That, to that extent that Yip was confused. Taken together, the conclusions would have to be: (a) KA consumer protection would not give any comfort (you, after all, are out of state, e.g.); (b) State telemarketing regulations or laws have nothing to do with it; (c) The Federal laws remain the place to look, if anywhere. Remember who it was who prosecuted Mr. Vleisides before, on what grounds, and for using which instrumentalities of communication and commerce. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: solitude on July 08, 2013, 02:47:15 AM Are you guys selling your preorders on ebay or just filing a claim with Paypal/FTC?
If I sell my pre-order on ebay and am paid through paypal, and these clowns never end up shipping, or ship a year from now, what's stopping the buyer from initiating a chargeback? Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Unacceptable on July 08, 2013, 02:52:24 AM Are you guys selling your preorders on ebay or just filing a claim with Paypal/FTC? If I sell my pre-order on ebay and am paid through paypal, and these clowns never end up shipping, or ship a year from now, what's stopping the buyer from initiating a chargeback? Exactly why I didn't sell my BFL preorder ANYWHERE.................................. ::) It's not worth the headache to worry if their going to fold later or not ship in a "timely" fashion to keep from having to refund the buyer of my preorder. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: solitude on July 08, 2013, 08:09:56 PM Are you guys selling your preorders on ebay or just filing a claim with Paypal/FTC? If I sell my pre-order on ebay and am paid through paypal, and these clowns never end up shipping, or ship a year from now, what's stopping the buyer from initiating a chargeback? Bumping for more replies to this Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: PuertoLibre on July 08, 2013, 10:28:47 PM Are you guys selling your preorders on ebay or just filing a claim with Paypal/FTC? Ebay and Paypal is not designed (policy wise) for BFL pre-orders...nor their subsequent resale. (In my Opinion)If I sell my pre-order on ebay and am paid through paypal, and these clowns never end up shipping, or ship a year from now, what's stopping the buyer from initiating a chargeback? If you resell "promises" of delivery based on what BFL has told you, expect your own customer to be just as screwed as you were. You are just becoming a repeater of promises and hence, you will be charged back. Lets all join a Kumbaya circle and chargeback on each other? Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: PuertoLibre on July 08, 2013, 10:34:46 PM There is a weak link somewhere in the chain of a successful Ebay (p)re-sale.
The question(s) of the day is: Are you the weakest link because you can't deliver to your customer on time? Or is it BFL because they can't seemingly deliver "to you" on time? Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: PuertoLibre on July 08, 2013, 10:44:26 PM http://s13.postimg.org/p4xooqe1j/2013_07_08_174152.png
Courtesy of: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/3144-ls-s-mr-status-speculation-11.html#post46100 Trouble in paradise? There might possibly be a delay due to that darn x-link. X-Link: Apparently a BFL proprietary design for linking boards together. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: k9quaint on July 08, 2013, 11:47:01 PM http://s13.postimg.org/p4xooqe1j/2013_07_08_174152.png Courtesy of: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/3144-ls-s-mr-status-speculation-11.html#post46100 Trouble in paradise? There might possibly be a delay due to that darn x-link. X-Link: Apparently a BFL proprietary design for linking boards together. There hasn't been a "I got my mini-rig" post in a while. BFL halted Jalapeno shipments until the other product lines catch up. It is July 8th. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: solitude on July 09, 2013, 04:02:46 AM So, Big Jody over at BFL posted her daily shipping blog, and guess what
they So I guess the prophets of doom were right, this company really is swindling us. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: solitude on July 09, 2013, 04:10:40 AM Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: PuertoLibre on July 09, 2013, 08:46:22 AM This describes the BFL hype very appropriately:
http://blog.gogrid.com/2012/11/28/riding-the-gartner-hype-cycle-roller-coaster-hang-on-to-your-magic-quadrants/ http://blog.gogrid.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Gartner_Hype_Cycle.svg_thumb.png http://blog.gogrid.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Gartner_Hype_Cycle.MQ_.fw-v2.fw_thumb.png Of course, when graphed, BFL's expectations and performance end with a tail spin and subsequent pitch fork shapes from angry crowds? Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: polarhei on July 09, 2013, 10:15:31 AM How many of you have been successful in getting a refund through paypal, after BFL illegally denied your refund? Within 45 days paypal policy, I have tried to get outta there before June. The BFL is really, really deep damned. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: solitude on July 09, 2013, 05:46:52 PM How many of you have been successful in getting a refund through paypal, after BFL illegally denied your refund? Within 45 days paypal policy, I have tried to get outta there before June. The BFL is really, really deep damned. Were you able to get a refund? Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: solitude on July 09, 2013, 06:07:53 PM I just got off the phone with "Robert" from PayPal and he said they would be more than willing to refund me after a dispute was opened because the BFL cronies haven't shipped a single thing and are denying refunds.
Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Loredo on July 09, 2013, 06:49:10 PM I just got off the phone with "Robert" from PayPal and he said they would be more than willing to refund me after a dispute was opened because the BFL cronies haven't shipped a single thing and are denying refunds. ???But the highlighted part is not true???Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: solitude on July 09, 2013, 06:50:25 PM I just got off the phone with "Robert" from PayPal and he said they would be more than willing to refund me after a dispute was opened because the BFL cronies haven't shipped a single thing and are denying refunds. ???But the highlighted part is not true???BFL shill pls go Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Loredo on July 09, 2013, 06:59:08 PM I just got off the phone with "Robert" from PayPal and he said they would be more than willing to refund me after a dispute was opened because the BFL cronies haven't shipped a single thing and are denying refunds. ???But the highlighted part is not true???BFL shill pls go To say BFL has not shipped a single thing is a prima facie misrepresentation of the truth. You have plenty of cause to come down on BFL without making shit up. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: ASIC-K on July 09, 2013, 07:00:56 PM to be fair, bfl is shipping some products.
Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: solitude on July 09, 2013, 07:06:51 PM I just got off the phone with "Robert" from PayPal and he said they would be more than willing to refund me after a dispute was opened because the BFL cronies haven't shipped a single thing and are denying refunds. ???But the highlighted part is not true???BFL shill pls go To say BFL has not shipped a single thing is a prima facie misrepresentation of the truth. You have plenty of cause to come down on BFL without making shit up. They haven't shipped a single in a month, except to shills like ARS Technica and other "I got my Single today!" shills They haven't provided an explanation as to why they haven't shipped. What pisses me off the most is they claim to still be "Shipping June 23rd Singles" which they've been claiming for a month now. There's under 100 orders for June 23rd, so how many Singles do you think they've shipped? Who in their right mind would defend this company after they started denying refunds to customers, with some phoney explanation? A shill would Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Loredo on July 09, 2013, 07:17:55 PM I just got off the phone with "Robert" from PayPal and he said they would be more than willing to refund me after a dispute was opened because the BFL cronies haven't shipped a single thing and are denying refunds. ???But the highlighted part is not true???BFL shill pls go To say BFL has not shipped a single thing is a prima facie misrepresentation of the truth. You have plenty of cause to come down on BFL without making shit up. They haven't shipped a single in a month, except to shills like ARS Technica and other "I got my Single today!" shills They haven't provided an explanation as to why they haven't shipped. What pisses me off the most is they claim to still be "Shipping June 23rd Singles" which they've been claiming for a month now. There's under 100 orders for June 23rd, so how many Singles do you think they've shipped? Who in their right mind would defend this company after they started denying refunds to customers, with some phoney explanation? A shill would If you represented to PayPal that they haven't shipped anything, then I take to exception to that. On the basis of the apparent violations of US FTC regulations, the constant misrepresentation of delivery schedules and intentions, and so on: go for their balls. Just don't make shit up, and certainly don't tell lies to PayPal. They're your advocate in this, and, just as someone should never lie to their lawyer, they should not lie to their advocates. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Phinnaeus Gage on July 09, 2013, 07:32:33 PM I just got off the phone with "Robert" from PayPal and he said they would be more than willing to refund me after a dispute was opened because the BFL cronies haven't shipped a single thing and are denying refunds. ???But the highlighted part is not true???BFL shill pls go To say BFL has not shipped a single thing is a prima facie misrepresentation of the truth. You have plenty of cause to come down on BFL without making shit up. They haven't shipped a single in a month, except to shills like ARS Technica and other "I got my Single today!" shills They haven't provided an explanation as to why they haven't shipped. What pisses me off the most is they claim to still be "Shipping June 23rd Singles" which they've been claiming for a month now. There's under 100 orders for June 23rd, so how many Singles do you think they've shipped? Who in their right mind would defend this company after they started denying refunds to customers, with some phoney explanation? A shill would Welcome to Full Production, where refunds are no longer honored. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Loredo on July 09, 2013, 07:53:23 PM Welcome to Full Production, where refunds are no longer honored. I can't believe I have to defend myself against being a BFL shill. A cursory review of the characterizations I've made of BFL would strongly suggest to anyone with an iota of the sense you have that, if I had to bet on BFL's raison d'etre I'd bet 'long con' at this point in time.I know they've (quite possibly illegally) stopped refunds. I don't know, but indications are, they've stopped shipping again; the theory someone had that they had a small number of chips, used most in Jallies, and a few in some tickler Big Boxes looks pretty plausible right now.\ My only point is this guy seemed to indicate that he represented to the PayPal agent that BFL had shipped nothing. And that's not true. And if and when PayPal calls BFL, and BFL can demonstrate that's not true, that does nothing to help the refund cause. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: k9quaint on July 09, 2013, 08:02:12 PM Welcome to Full Production, where refunds are no longer honored. I can't believe I have to defend myself against being a BFL shill. A cursory review of the characterizations I've made of BFL would strongly suggest to anyone with an iota of the sense you have that, if I had to bet on BFL's raison d'etre I'd bet 'long con' at this point in time.I know they've (quite possibly illegally) stopped refunds. I don't know, but indications are, they've stopped shipping again; the theory someone had that they had a small number of chips, used most in Jallies, and a few in some tickler Big Boxes looks pretty plausible right now.\ My only point is this guy seemed to indicate that he represented to the PayPal agent that BFL had shipped nothing. And that's not true. And if and when PayPal calls BFL, and BFL can demonstrate that's not true, that does nothing to help the refund cause. Solitude is a bit strident. I wouldn't pay too much attention. He is an equal opportunity hater. ;) Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Loredo on July 09, 2013, 08:06:52 PM Solitude is a bit strident. Don't know if you intended it or not, but this gets the Oxymoron of Day Award.NOTE: NO! I am not calling k9quaint a moron! If unsure, look up the word. Thank you. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Loredo on July 09, 2013, 08:12:19 PM Okay, let's review the day.
There's apparently some internecine conflict going on in Shenzen involving Avalon. It's not clear yet what that's about, except there looks to be somewhere between 300K and 2 million chips sitting around, depending on calculations and assumptions. Bitfury is selling imminently in EU and USA, at around 50 bucks a GH for delivery next month. Good luck to all. BFL is, well, who knows. I'm checking out for a couple days. The lunatics have taken over the asylum, far as I can tell. See ya. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: k9quaint on July 09, 2013, 08:18:54 PM Solitude is a bit strident. Don't know if you intended it or not, but this gets the Oxymoron of Day Award.NOTE: NO! I am not calling k9quaint a moron! If unsure, look up the word. Thank you. One could be alone (solitude) in a harmonica factory running at full tilt (strident). So technically, not a contradiction in terms (oxymoron). :D Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: solitude on July 10, 2013, 03:21:45 AM Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: solitude on July 11, 2013, 03:57:01 AM One single a day goes out their door
Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: erk on July 11, 2013, 04:46:52 AM One single a day goes out their door They have actually done more than that, it's a bit deceptive, although Jody's status report says that they are still shipping single orders from June 23rd. 2012, there were hundreds of the things ordered that day, and they have almost shipped them all, they reckon a day or two to finish the 23rd. off. https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/227-wednesday-july-10-2013-shipping-update.html Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: PuertoLibre on July 11, 2013, 06:27:20 AM Then comes the 24th, 25th, 26th, etc....
All the way up to the 1st and then it starts all over again. (times 12x) Yeesh, these BFL customers have the patience of Buddah! http://www.huggermugger.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/lord-buddha-18a.jpg Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Viceroy on July 11, 2013, 06:29:08 AM dates aside, how many of the products have they shipped as a percentage vs what they've sold? They never stopped taking orders once they started did they? Have they shipped more than 5% of their orders?
Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: YipYip on July 11, 2013, 08:43:28 AM dates aside, how many of the products have they shipped as a percentage vs what they've sold? They never stopped taking orders once they started did they? Have they shipped more than 5% of their orders? ~ 10-15% of Jal ~0-0.5% of SC ~0-0.5% of Little SC ~ 1% of MiniRigs So of total orders they would be above 5% but by not much Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: trichome on July 11, 2013, 01:27:59 PM got my money back through paypal refund. :D
Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Lohoris on July 11, 2013, 01:36:46 PM For those of you with significant preorders "investments" with BFL, I'd suggest you'd seek refunds soon through whichever avenue you choose. You want to be at the front of the refund line and not at the end. Soon the company will be looted and then protected by bankruptcy laws. It will then be unlikely you will see your funds nor any miner. This.Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: solitude on July 11, 2013, 02:09:55 PM Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: solitude on July 12, 2013, 01:35:06 PM If you still haven't charged back your credit card / paypal / contacted the FTC, what's your reason?
It's clear these guys aren't shipping Singles and are full of shit They can't even finish their day 1 order, lol Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: solitude on July 12, 2013, 01:53:10 PM Three letters: R O I
and three more: L O L Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Lohoris on July 13, 2013, 03:04:02 PM If you still haven't charged back your credit card / paypal / contacted the FTC, what's your reason? Because they are stupid&delusional, I'd say?It's clear these guys aren't shipping Singles and are full of shit They can't even finish their day 1 order, lol Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: PuertoLibre on July 13, 2013, 03:20:03 PM got my money back through paypal refund. :D You bastard....!Just kidding, congrats on exercising your rights to...get your money back. <shrug?> ================= Anyone else interested in getting your money back after BFL refuses? Go here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=250985.60 A Special Thanks To Ryan Downs For The Following Upper Management Phone Numbers. 1-408-967-5033 (TOLL NUMBER) Michael Oldenburg, HE WANTS TO HEAR YOURCOMPLAINTS! 1-408-376-7514 (TOLL FAX Number) Ryan Downs, Senior Vice PresidentOperations, PayPal, Inc. and eBay Inc. 1-402-935-2050 (Toll Number) 1-888-215-5506 (Toll Free Number) 1-888-221-1161 (Toll Free Number) 1-408-376-7400 (Toll Number) 1-408-376-7514 (Toll Fax Number) PayPal, San Jose, General Fax #1-650-864-8000 (Toll Number) 1-402-935-2284 (Toll Number -- Banking and Check Issues) 1-402-935-2212 (Toll Number -- ACH Processing & Check Services) 1-402-935-2255 (Toll Number -- Account Review Department) 1-402-935-2257 (Toll Number -- Account Review Department) 1-402-935-2223 (Toll Number -- PayPal Compliance) 1-402-935-2250 (Toll Number -- PayPal Compliance) 1-402-935-2000 (Toll Number -- Customer Service Department) 1-402-935-2007 (Toll Number -- Customer Service Department) 1-402-935-5181 (Toll Number -- Debit Card Services) 1-402-935-2116 (Toll Number -- Escalations Department) 1-402-935-2129 (Toll Number -- Escalations Department) 1-402-935-2238 (Toll Number -- Management, Escalations Department) 1-402-935-2239 (Toll Number -- Fraud Prevention Department) 1-402-935-2251 (Toll Number -- Manager, Resolutions Department) 1-650-251-1101 (Toll FAX Number -- Never Fax w/o a Case Number!) 1-408-376-7514 (Toll FAX Number -- Never Fax w/o a Case Number!) 1-408-967-1005 (Toll Number -- Amanda Pires, PayPal Media Relations) 1-402-537-5755 (Toll FAX Number -- PayPal Chargeback Department) 1-402-938-2337 (Toll FAX Number -- Compliance Department) 1-303-395-2802 (Toll FAX Number -- Compliance Department) 1-402-952-8691 (Thomas, PayPal Executive Dying to Receive Your Call) 1-402-935-2238 (Tiffany Zaporowski, Strategic Risk Operations) 1-402-935-2116 (Elizabeth Morey, Supervisor, Executive Escalations) 1-402-952-8691 (Thomas, Senior Agent, Dying to Receive Your Call) 1-402-935-2172 (Adam Braasch, Senior Agent) 1-402-952-8902 (Gabriel, Agent, Executive Escalations) 1-402-935-2268 (Beth Beutler, Senior Agent) 1-402-935-5146 (Leslie Byrne, Senior Agent) 1-402-935-2399 (Janyce Erikson, Senior Agent) 1-402-935-5145 (Melody Fry, Senior Agent) 1-402-935-2174 (Jackie Hart, Senior Agent) 1-402-935-2229 (Michael Lazure, Senior Agent) *ACH/Wire Expert* 1-402-935-5163 (Rick Martin, Senior Agent) 1-402-935-5073 (Stephanie Mikovec, Senior Agent) 1-402-935-2157 (Megan Moore, Senior Agent) *WORKS WEEKENDS* 1-402-935-3533 (Peggy Pattavina, Senior Agent) 1-402-935-2331 (Tara Stevens, Senior Agent) 1-402-938-3532 (Megan Wetzel, Senior Agent) (402)935-2114 Kay P. 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(402)935-2259 Tereasa Unknown (402)935-2264 Eric Unknown (402)935-2265 Doug H. Unknown (402)935-2271 Cynthia Unknown (402)935-2273 Leslie Walker Unknown (402)935-2276 Heather Johnson Unknown (402)935-2281 Jason Alexander Unknown (402)935-2288 David Unknown (402)935-2291 John Unknown (402)935-2298 Chris Unknown (402)935-2302 Jim Norway Unknown Call was forwarded to a Nextel Phone Afterhours (management?) (402)935-2305 Amanda Unknown (402)935-2308 Cathy Unknown (402)935-2316 Laurie Unknown (402)935-2317 Jason Unknown (402)935-2322 Jamie Swanson Unknown (402)935-2324 Jessica Carasoul Unknown (402)935-2335 Steve Unknown (402)935-2336 Marissa Unknown (402)935-2341 Laurie Unknown (402)935-2342 Torrence Unknown (402)935-2349 Karen Unknown (402)935-2350 Beverly Unknown (402)935-2351 Karen Lovette Unknown (402)935-2358 John Kimmee Unknown (402)935-2363 Claire Shumiker Unknown (402)935-2364 Mary Viella Unknown (402)935-2365 Frank Unknown (402)935-2367 Mary OBrien Unknown (402)935-2369 Kelly Carson Unknown (402)935-2370 unknown Unknown person answered, unsure, will recheck later. (402)935-2372 Bob Miles Unknown (402)935-2375 Renee Unknown Schedule: Tues~Fri 1:30PM~Mid. (402)935-2376 Foreign Speaking Employee Unknown Foreign Employee.. anyone identify language ? (402)935-2377 David B. Unknown (402)935-2381 Tina Unknown (402)935-2386 Cameron Unknown (402)935-2387 Cindy Unknown (402)935-2391 Alisha Rhea Unknown (402)935-2392 Cindy Kathork Unknown (402)935-2393 Andres Unknown (402)935-2394 Robin Unknown (402)935-2395 Jim Unknown (402)935-2397 Mark Davis Unknown (402)935-2399 Janice Erickson Unknown Schedule: M-F 6AM~2:30PM (402)935-5103 Nicole Unknown (402)935-5105 Natalie Unknown (402)935-5106 Angie Unknown (402)935-5108 Gene Unknown (402)935-5111 Doug Maxum Unknown (402)935-5113 Becky Unknown (402)935-5115 Carrie Unknown (402)935-5116 Paula Baldwin Unknown (402)935-5117 Dave Burchill Unknown (402)935-5121 Andy J. Unknown (402)935-5123 Micheal Jones Unknown (402)935-5129 Marlow Rumington Unknown (402)935-5133 Jeanette Unknown (402)935-5136 Quincy Unknown (402)935-5138 Terrell Anderson Unknown (402)935-5144 Lisa L. Unknown (402)935-5147 Evan McCaul Unknown (402)935-5152 Jessica Palamino Unknown (402)935-5156 Steve Unknown (402)935-5164 Tonya Lynn Unknown (402)935-5165 Devon Unknown (402)935-5171 Carrol Unknown (402)935-5175 Cindy Unknown (402)935-5148 Jeff Lonka Unknown Admin maybe (msg says if urgent, call: 402-490-9749) (402)935-5176 Sheila Unknown (402)935-5178 Unknown Employee Unknown (402)935-5179 Tim Maxwell Unknown (402)935-5185 Rich Unknown (402)935-5186 Jerry Lowe (female) Unknown (402)935-5187 Brian G. Unknown Voicemail says w/Ebay (402)935-5189 Brian Unknown (402)935-5192 Christian Reese Unknown (402)935-5194 Reese Unknown (402)935-5195 Angie Unknown (402)935-5196 Scott Unknown Source Link: http://www.paypalsucks.com/PayPalPhoneNumbers.shtml Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Bicknellski on July 13, 2013, 05:23:09 PM http://www.ic3.gov/faq/default.aspx
Q: Can I file a complaint if I have been victimized by an individual or company in the United States, but I am not a citizen of the United States? If one of the two parties involved is located within the United States, please feel free to file a complaint. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: vcsmith on July 13, 2013, 06:56:15 PM PayPal turned down my refund within minutes. The reason stated was "This dispute closed because it was opened for more than 45 days after the transaction date or did not meet other filing criteria." I contacted PayPal by phone and received the same response, even though I am a long-time account holder. PayPal did promise to contact BFL and ask them to ship my order--for whatever that's worth. My next step has been to contact PayPal's fraud department to point out the blatant and ongoing violation of their terms of service for pre-order sales. I believe this is BFL's Achilles heel. BFL needs PayPal. FYI: fraud@paypal.com The PayPal rep I spoke with agreed with my assessment that BFL is violating the TOS. Quote From PayPal's FAQ: Does PayPal permit transactions for pre-sale items? A pre-sale item is advertised for sale before the seller actually has the item. Often, these items are sold before they are available to the general public. A seller might use the money from the pre-sale of an item to purchase the item. PayPal permits pre-sales on a limited basis as long as the seller: Guarantees shipment within 20 days from the date of purchase. Clearly identifies the item as a pre-sale. Provides proof, if needed, that they can successfully deliver the product (supplier information, purchase invoices, shipping information, or delivery confirmation). I don't expect to ever receive a product from BFL, but I'm not laying down for them. Let's keep the pressure on PayPal and maybe they can help BFL find their checkbook. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: PuertoLibre on July 14, 2013, 01:31:19 AM The AUP folks might be able to address your issues:
(402)935-2223 Sheryl AUP Compliance (402)935-2250 Katrina AUP Compliance (402)935-2275 Lisa AUP Compliance (402)935-2332 Julie Gonzales AUP Compliance (402)935-5140 Alahandre Elise(?) AUP Compliance AUP = Account Use Policy (If I recall correctly) AUP = TOS enforcement (Terms Of Service) (402)935-2255 Jasmine Account Review (402)935-2256 Jamie Account Review (402)935-2257 Jamie Account Review (402)935-2328 Chris Account Review (402)935-2333 Luke Account Review (402)935-2239 Collin Fraud & Security Fraud Prevention (402)935-2267 Mark Fraud & Security Trust & Safety (402)935-2272 Michael Fraud & Security Protection Services (402)935-2366 Suzanne Combes Brown Fraud & Security Risk Management Manager (402)935-2368 Sheryl London Fraud & Security Protection Services: Senior Agent (402)935-5134 Bill Gray Fraud & Security Internal Audit. Mountain View Office: 650-864-8046 (402)935-2015 Teresa Rains Charge Backs (402)935-2141 Mikalea Charge Backs (402)935-2152 Anna Charge Backs (402)935-2189 Margaret Charge Backs (402)935-2340 Debbie Charge Backs Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Phinnaeus Gage on July 14, 2013, 01:49:27 AM Let's see what kind of pussies BFL truly is: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=255830.0
Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: PuertoLibre on July 15, 2013, 04:08:16 AM Let's see what kind of pussies BFL truly is: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=255830.0 Have you been sued yet PG?(You scoundrel!) Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: solitude on July 16, 2013, 02:39:52 PM So BFL doesn't even bother to post shipping updates anymore?
*Scamming Intensifies* I guess even they got sick of claiming to be shipping June 23rd Singles Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: ASIC-K on July 16, 2013, 02:54:27 PM fyi, paypal just refunded me my bfl order
Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Loredo on July 16, 2013, 03:20:37 PM fyi, paypal just refunded me my bfl order I'd suggest the following to anyone fortunate enough to have had success in this way, in order to be of assistance to the most people reading this thread:describe the circumstances; i.e.: -->were you within 45 days? -->did you call PayPal directly? -->did you make some allegation (such as Paypal TOS violation) against BFL? Again, just a suggestion... Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: polarhei on July 16, 2013, 05:44:00 PM Within 45 days, everything you can do as people are expected to have tracking number issued by postal service like USPS at least.
I think the lab is the threat Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: solitude on July 16, 2013, 08:03:36 PM fyi, paypal just refunded me my bfl order When did you order ? Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: firefop on July 17, 2013, 05:24:17 AM All sales are final is in itself illegal. As long as they can't deliver the item on the day you want your refund they have to give you the refund. That is common business pratice and even law in some countries... Any good lawyer or judge will tell you its all in the wording, and BFL uses it well. And I quote " Bitforce SC (ASIC) products are shipped according to placement in the order queue, and delivery may take 2 months or more after order. All sales are final." The statement of "2 months or more" makes denying you a refund legal. The only way it becomes illegal is if they never deliver the product....ever. If they discontinue the item and say that it will never ship, THEN you are legally owed a refund. But, when you paid for your item, they essentially told you it would take at least 2 months. They never promised before a certain time frame. Some people have been able to successfully get refunds, and that is totally at the companies discretion. Its no different that buying a product with a warranty, and then that product breaking after that warranty has expired. They company promised that under normal use, their product will last ATLEAST that long. Anything beyond that, they do not have to fix/repair, but if they choose to do it then thats their own discretion. Same also applies to returns and countless other policies in place everyday. Dude... You and BFL may want us all to believe this but until a customers order physically ships it appears according to the FTC that the company must issue a prompt refund when the customer asks for a refund for ANY reason. Just because their ToS is against FTC regulations doesn't mean it's OK to break those regulations because you put it in your ToS LDO. (Bolded in mine) When You Must Cancel an Order You must cancel an order and provide a prompt refund when: •the customer exercises any option to cancel before you ship the merchandise; •the customer does not respond to your first notice of a definite revised shipment date of 30 days or less and you have not shipped the merchandise or received the customer’s consent to a further delay by the definite revised shipment date; •the customer does not respond to your notice of a definite revised shipment date of more than 30 days (or your notice that you are unable to provide a definite revised shipment date) and you have not shipped the merchandise within 30 days of the original shipment date; •the customer consents to a definite delay and you have not shipped or obtained the customer’s consent to any additional delay by the shipment time the customer consented to; •you have not shipped or provided the required delay or renewed option notices on time; or •you determine that you will never be able to ship the merchandise. http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule The way I read this BFL is clearly in violation of the FTC mail and telephone order merchandise rule (punishable by the FTC suing them for up to $16,000 per incident). Your turn, please post some evidence of BFL's no refund policy being legitimate. Reading comprehension is my friend... I'd be happy to introduce you if you'd like to meet up. Item 1: any option to cancel: There is no option for canceling in the sales contract, it specifically states non refundable. An Option refers to a provision in the contract allowing... etc. Item 2: concerns company initiated action - does not apply. Item 3: concerns company initiated action - does not apply. Item 4: nobody consented to any sort of 'definite delay' - bfl ship time has always been "later" Item 5: doesn't apply since no definite deliver date ever established. Item 6: concerns company initiated action (aka rolling up) - does not apply. My advice to you would be - stop trying to invoke the ftc - you obviously don't understand enough about contract law to have any hope of interpreting their regulations. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: k9quaint on July 17, 2013, 05:49:14 AM Dude... You and BFL may want us all to believe this but until a customers order physically ships it appears according to the FTC that the company must issue a prompt refund when the customer asks for a refund for ANY reason. Just because their ToS is against FTC regulations doesn't mean it's OK to break those regulations because you put it in your ToS LDO. (Bolded in mine) When You Must Cancel an Order You must cancel an order and provide a prompt refund when: •the customer exercises any option to cancel before you ship the merchandise; •the customer does not respond to your first notice of a definite revised shipment date of 30 days or less and you have not shipped the merchandise or received the customer’s consent to a further delay by the definite revised shipment date; •the customer does not respond to your notice of a definite revised shipment date of more than 30 days (or your notice that you are unable to provide a definite revised shipment date) and you have not shipped the merchandise within 30 days of the original shipment date; •the customer consents to a definite delay and you have not shipped or obtained the customer’s consent to any additional delay by the shipment time the customer consented to; •you have not shipped or provided the required delay or renewed option notices on time; or •you determine that you will never be able to ship the merchandise. http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule The way I read this BFL is clearly in violation of the FTC mail and telephone order merchandise rule (punishable by the FTC suing them for up to $16,000 per incident). Your turn, please post some evidence of BFL's no refund policy being legitimate. Reading comprehension is my friend... I'd be happy to introduce you if you'd like to meet up. Item 1: any option to cancel: There is no option for canceling in the sales contract, it specifically states non refundable. An Option refers to a provision in the contract allowing... etc. Item 2: concerns company initiated action - does not apply. Except that company initiated action was required of BFL, which they failed to do.If you can't ship within the promised time (or within 30 days if you made no promise), you must notify the customer of the delay, provide a revised shipment date and explain his right to cancel and get a full and prompt refund. BFL missed their original promised date of October and has never issued a hard date since. "As soon as two more weeks" and "2 months or more" are not shipping dates. By law, you must have a reasonable basis for stating that a product can be shipped within a certain time. If your advertising doesn't clearly and prominently state the shipment period, you must have a reasonable basis for believing that you can ship within 30 days. Item 3: concerns company initiated action - does not apply. Also incorrect. "definite revised shipment date" does not mean "later". It means a calendar day ("by July 18th") or a fixed time period ("within 3 days"). Since BFL never provided what they were required to provide, the customers were denied their opportunity to cancel their orders in response to it.Item 4: nobody consented to any sort of 'definite delay' - bfl ship time has always been "later" Since BFL did not provide their revised schedule, nobody had the opportunity to consent to it.For definite delays of up to 30 days, you may treat the customer's silence as agreeing to the delay. But for longer or indefinite delays - and second and subsequent delays - you must get the customer's written, electronic or verbal consent to the delay. If the customer doesn't give you his okay, you must promptly refund all the money the customer paid you without being asked by the customer. BFL are the kings of the indefinite delay. Item 5: doesn't apply since no definite deliver date ever established. That is a violation of FTC rules. By law, you must have a reasonable basis for stating that a product can be shipped within a certain time."Later" is the opposite of certain. My advice to you would be - stop trying to invoke the ftc - you obviously don't understand enough about contract law to have any hope of interpreting their regulations. Oh the irony. Instead of looking up the rules yourself or going to one of the dozens of sites that explain them to you, you just waltz in wing it. So far PayPal has been granting refunds to BFL customers who want them, but the FTC is there if PayPal ever cuts off the flow of refunds.Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Flying Hellfish on July 17, 2013, 11:45:03 AM All sales are final is in itself illegal. As long as they can't deliver the item on the day you want your refund they have to give you the refund. That is common business pratice and even law in some countries... Any good lawyer or judge will tell you its all in the wording, and BFL uses it well. And I quote " Bitforce SC (ASIC) products are shipped according to placement in the order queue, and delivery may take 2 months or more after order. All sales are final." The statement of "2 months or more" makes denying you a refund legal. The only way it becomes illegal is if they never deliver the product....ever. If they discontinue the item and say that it will never ship, THEN you are legally owed a refund. But, when you paid for your item, they essentially told you it would take at least 2 months. They never promised before a certain time frame. Some people have been able to successfully get refunds, and that is totally at the companies discretion. Its no different that buying a product with a warranty, and then that product breaking after that warranty has expired. They company promised that under normal use, their product will last ATLEAST that long. Anything beyond that, they do not have to fix/repair, but if they choose to do it then thats their own discretion. Same also applies to returns and countless other policies in place everyday. Dude... You and BFL may want us all to believe this but until a customers order physically ships it appears according to the FTC that the company must issue a prompt refund when the customer asks for a refund for ANY reason. Just because their ToS is against FTC regulations doesn't mean it's OK to break those regulations because you put it in your ToS LDO. (Bolded in mine) When You Must Cancel an Order You must cancel an order and provide a prompt refund when: •the customer exercises any option to cancel before you ship the merchandise; •the customer does not respond to your first notice of a definite revised shipment date of 30 days or less and you have not shipped the merchandise or received the customer’s consent to a further delay by the definite revised shipment date; •the customer does not respond to your notice of a definite revised shipment date of more than 30 days (or your notice that you are unable to provide a definite revised shipment date) and you have not shipped the merchandise within 30 days of the original shipment date; •the customer consents to a definite delay and you have not shipped or obtained the customer’s consent to any additional delay by the shipment time the customer consented to; •you have not shipped or provided the required delay or renewed option notices on time; or •you determine that you will never be able to ship the merchandise. http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule The way I read this BFL is clearly in violation of the FTC mail and telephone order merchandise rule (punishable by the FTC suing them for up to $16,000 per incident). Your turn, please post some evidence of BFL's no refund policy being legitimate. Reading comprehension is my friend... I'd be happy to introduce you if you'd like to meet up. Item 1: any option to cancel: There is no option for canceling in the sales contract, it specifically states non refundable. An Option refers to a provision in the contract allowing... etc. Item 2: concerns company initiated action - does not apply. Item 3: concerns company initiated action - does not apply. Item 4: nobody consented to any sort of 'definite delay' - bfl ship time has always been "later" Item 5: doesn't apply since no definite deliver date ever established. Item 6: concerns company initiated action (aka rolling up) - does not apply. My advice to you would be - stop trying to invoke the ftc - you obviously don't understand enough about contract law to have any hope of interpreting their regulations. As K9 politely pointed out you couldn't be more wrong. Consumer protection laws are quite clear and quite old. Lets ignore for one second all your points except #4 & 5. By your own definition BFL has required customers to wait for an "indefinite" delay (of course if you read the rule you would know that you must provide a definitive delivery date and 2 months or more is not definitve therefore it would fall under the indefinite delay clause). One of the things REQUIRED by the company if the are asking for and receive an indefinite delay is the following. •a statement that, if the customer agrees to the indefinite delay, the customer may cancel the order any time until you ship. According to the FTC BFL is breaking their requirements by not TELLING the customer they have the RIGHT cancel an order ANY time until you ship. There is no room for ambiguity with their statement. BFL MUST TELL the customer they have the right to cancel the order and when the order is cancelled they MUST refund. BFL is not only telling their customer the exact opposite of what the FTC tells them they must say but they are also doing the opposite of what is required by not providing the refund. Sir, my reading comprehension and understanding of consumer protection laws is OK, yours on the other hand?? IF this ends up with the FTC or the courts BFL doesn't have a leg to stand. Your inability to understand this does not change to facts as they are. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Xian01 on July 17, 2013, 01:42:29 PM My advice to you would be - stop trying to invoke the ftc - you obviously don't understand enough about contract law to have any hope of interpreting their regulations. Is this your professional, legal opinion ? In fact, the Federal Trade Commission was set up for just such consumer protection cases. Taking things to the FTC is a reasonable step in lodging a formal complaint and establishing a problem pattern if you have a legitimate case. Every little bit helps establish a pattern. http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/index.shtml Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: firefop on July 17, 2013, 06:39:54 PM As K9 politely pointed out you couldn't be more wrong. Consumer protection laws are quite clear and quite old. Lets ignore for one second all your points except #4 & 5. By your own definition BFL has required customers to wait for an "indefinite" delay (of course if you read the rule you would know that you must provide a definitive delivery date and 2 months or more is not definitve therefore it would fall under the indefinite delay clause). One of the things REQUIRED by the company if the are asking for and receive an indefinite delay is the following. •a statement that, if the customer agrees to the indefinite delay, the customer may cancel the order any time until you ship. According to the FTC BFL is breaking their requirements by not TELLING the customer they have the RIGHT cancel an order ANY time until you ship. There is no room for ambiguity with their statement. BFL MUST TELL the customer they have the right to cancel the order and when the order is cancelled they MUST refund. BFL is not only telling their customer the exact opposite of what the FTC tells them they must say but they are also doing the opposite of what is required by not providing the refund. Sir, my reading comprehension and understanding of consumer protection laws is OK, yours on the other hand?? IF this ends up with the FTC or the courts BFL doesn't have a leg to stand. Your inability to understand this does not change to facts as they are. I suppose with this level of incompetence I should probably take the extra time to figure out what rule you're imagining. From the context it sounds like you're talking about 'prompt delivery'. If so then I should point out that this only applies to physical goods existing at the time of sale, and is purely about the delivery of those goods. Even if we go ahead and ignore the nature of a non-developed hardware pre-order... and agree to say this rule applies: There still wasn't any delay in delivery of the goods. There has been a period of time where the product was not developed. The initial timetable sale stated that it wasn't yet developed and had a very loose estimate (basically 'whenever it gets done')... there has been no delay when we're talking about the sales contract and deliver of the goods. The time table on shipping is still the same 'in order of paid date, starting once we have the hardware to ship'. Since it was specified at the beginning, within 30 days is in applicable. But that's just a fun mental exercise. It doesn't matter what you or I or anyone thinks about ftc regulations. Instead of playing games trying to use inapplicable rules... if you're serious about finding a violation you should be looking into forward contract law... because that's what the sales were. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: firefop on July 17, 2013, 06:43:19 PM My advice to you would be - stop trying to invoke the ftc - you obviously don't understand enough about contract law to have any hope of interpreting their regulations. Is this your professional, legal opinion ? In fact, the Federal Trade Commission was set up for just such consumer protection cases. Taking things to the FTC is a reasonable step in lodging a formal complaint and establishing a problem pattern if you have a legitimate case. Every little bit helps establish a pattern. http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/index.shtml I completely agree that anyone is welcome to waste the FTCs time with this nonsense. I'm just getting a little sick of everyone and their dog playing lawyer and trying to apply random regulations to things that they don't actually apply to. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Xian01 on July 17, 2013, 06:50:31 PM I completely agree that anyone is welcome to waste the FTCs time with this nonsense. Your opinion. I'm just getting a little sick of everyone and their dog playing lawyer and trying to apply random regulations to things that they don't actually apply to. I hope you can appreciate there are some that are sick of production problems over the last 300+ some-odd days that have created the current acrimonious environment. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Trongersoll on July 17, 2013, 06:51:47 PM This is better than Judge Judy! ;D
Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: becoin on July 17, 2013, 06:59:41 PM I completely agree that anyone is welcome to waste the FTCs time with this nonsense. Don't panic!Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Moneymaker1990 on July 17, 2013, 07:00:12 PM All sales are final is in itself illegal. As long as they can't deliver the item on the day you want your refund they have to give you the refund. That is common business pratice and even law in some countries... Any good lawyer or judge will tell you its all in the wording, and BFL uses it well. And I quote " Bitforce SC (ASIC) products are shipped according to placement in the order queue, and delivery may take 2 months or more after order. All sales are final." The statement of "2 months or more" makes denying you a refund legal. The only way it becomes illegal is if they never deliver the product....ever. If they discontinue the item and say that it will never ship, THEN you are legally owed a refund. But, when you paid for your item, they essentially told you it would take at least 2 months. They never promised before a certain time frame. Some people have been able to successfully get refunds, and that is totally at the companies discretion. Its no different that buying a product with a warranty, and then that product breaking after that warranty has expired. They company promised that under normal use, their product will last ATLEAST that long. Anything beyond that, they do not have to fix/repair, but if they choose to do it then thats their own discretion. Same also applies to returns and countless other policies in place everyday. You are completely incorrect in your understanding of the legal precedent around this issue. U.S. Consumer Protection Laws are very clear. If they have not actually shipped the merchandise, they cannot deny your request for a refund, regardless of what terms and conditions they have in some arbitrary corner of their website. ^^This It is amazing to me how the BFL fanbois will excuse almost any behavior by the company, up to and including refusing their customers refunds. Fanboy I am not. Yes, I have a Jalapeno, but I also ordered mine in July 2012. So, someone who ordered 2 months ago who is upset about not getting a refund, I say to them, what do you say to the person who has waited almost a year to get their unit? I refer you to my post below and the FTC laws governing All Sales Finals and the legality of them offering refunds. Like it or not, they are within their legal right to deny a refund, just like you are within your legal right to ask for, and put in a claim for one. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=249125.msg2648214#msg2648214 FTC is clear. All sales final is not binding. You can always cancel. Espcially if product has not shipped within 30 days or order, regardless of if you are warned it may be longer than 2 months. BFL is breaking US FTC laws. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: solitude on July 17, 2013, 07:06:06 PM All of these ASIC companies are scams. Nobody has miners on hand and if they did you'd pay through the nose for one.
The cute little block eruptor USB miner won't even get you back your ROI ever. Yet people buy it anyway. I could of sold my BFL preorder on ebay but what's the point when I'll just be charged back eventually, or even worse, end up shipping it to the buyer (assuming I ever receive it to begin with), who mines with it for two weeks, then returns it and then gets a full refund courtesy of paypal. I spoke with a paypal rep who assured me they'd get refunds to all the people BFL has scammed. I would of maybe waited even longer but seeing Josh's posts over the last couple weeks has just made me not want to do business with this company regardless of how much profit I might be able to earn with their miners. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: becoin on July 17, 2013, 07:11:30 PM I would of maybe waited even longer but seeing Josh's posts over the last couple weeks has just made me not want to do business with this company regardless of how much profit I might be able to earn with their miners. Still hesitate? 99% of BFL customers (rather investors) will never get positive ROI. That is guaranteed!Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: solitude on July 17, 2013, 07:16:52 PM Funny how men are so passive and complacent in this day and age. Can you imagine if this was a company selling mostly jewelry or whatever bullshit women buy, and they never delivered for whatever reason?
The fucking FBI, CIA, NSA, Coast Guard, Army, Marines, and Air Force would descend upon their headquarters. But since these scammers are selling vaporware to a 100% male audience, nobody complains, and even the major government agencies don't get involved. How does it feel to be a second class citizen in Obongo's America? Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Viceroy on July 18, 2013, 12:17:05 AM a white male audience
Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: BTCscraper on July 18, 2013, 12:22:27 AM Selling jewelry, you say?
https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/234-fabulous-bfl-pcb-jewelry.html https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/235-photos.html Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Phinnaeus Gage on July 18, 2013, 05:47:22 AM Selling jewelry, you say? https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/234-fabulous-bfl-pcb-jewelry.html https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/235-photos.html Direct for Jody & Ass. Data Wear LLC: http://blog.rewarestyle.com/wp-content/ecouterre_feb10b.jpg Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: solitude on July 21, 2013, 07:43:36 PM bumping for posterity
Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Phinnaeus Gage on July 21, 2013, 09:57:27 PM bumping for posterity +1 (to prove such posts get deleted) Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Viceroy on August 02, 2013, 06:05:18 PM "YES, you can get a REFUND from BFL"
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=266945.0 Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: PuertoLibre on August 04, 2013, 04:11:33 PM got my money back through paypal refund. :D You bastard....!Just kidding, congrats on exercising your rights to...get your money back. <shrug?> ================= Anyone else interested in getting your money back after BFL refuses? Go here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=250985.60 A Special Thanks To Ryan Downs For The Following Upper Management Phone Numbers. 1-408-967-5033 (TOLL NUMBER) Michael Oldenburg, HE WANTS TO HEAR YOURCOMPLAINTS! 1-408-376-7514 (TOLL FAX Number) Ryan Downs, Senior Vice PresidentOperations, PayPal, Inc. and eBay Inc. 1-402-935-2050 (Toll Number) 1-888-215-5506 (Toll Free Number) 1-888-221-1161 (Toll Free Number) 1-408-376-7400 (Toll Number) 1-408-376-7514 (Toll Fax Number) PayPal, San Jose, General Fax #1-650-864-8000 (Toll Number) 1-402-935-2284 (Toll Number -- Banking and Check Issues) 1-402-935-2212 (Toll Number -- ACH Processing & Check Services) 1-402-935-2255 (Toll Number -- Account Review Department) 1-402-935-2257 (Toll Number -- Account Review Department) 1-402-935-2223 (Toll Number -- PayPal Compliance) 1-402-935-2250 (Toll Number -- PayPal Compliance) 1-402-935-2000 (Toll Number -- Customer Service Department) 1-402-935-2007 (Toll Number -- Customer Service Department) 1-402-935-5181 (Toll Number -- Debit Card Services) 1-402-935-2116 (Toll Number -- Escalations Department) 1-402-935-2129 (Toll Number -- Escalations Department) 1-402-935-2238 (Toll Number -- Management, Escalations Department) 1-402-935-2239 (Toll Number -- Fraud Prevention Department) 1-402-935-2251 (Toll Number -- Manager, Resolutions Department) 1-650-251-1101 (Toll FAX Number -- Never Fax w/o a Case Number!) 1-408-376-7514 (Toll FAX Number -- Never Fax w/o a Case Number!) 1-408-967-1005 (Toll Number -- Amanda Pires, PayPal Media Relations) 1-402-537-5755 (Toll FAX Number -- PayPal Chargeback Department) 1-402-938-2337 (Toll FAX Number -- Compliance Department) 1-303-395-2802 (Toll FAX Number -- Compliance Department) 1-402-952-8691 (Thomas, PayPal Executive Dying to Receive Your Call) 1-402-935-2238 (Tiffany Zaporowski, Strategic Risk Operations) 1-402-935-2116 (Elizabeth Morey, Supervisor, Executive Escalations) 1-402-952-8691 (Thomas, Senior Agent, Dying to Receive Your Call) 1-402-935-2172 (Adam Braasch, Senior Agent) 1-402-952-8902 (Gabriel, Agent, Executive Escalations) 1-402-935-2268 (Beth Beutler, Senior Agent) 1-402-935-5146 (Leslie Byrne, Senior Agent) 1-402-935-2399 (Janyce Erikson, Senior Agent) 1-402-935-5145 (Melody Fry, Senior Agent) 1-402-935-2174 (Jackie Hart, Senior Agent) 1-402-935-2229 (Michael Lazure, Senior Agent) *ACH/Wire Expert* 1-402-935-5163 (Rick Martin, Senior Agent) 1-402-935-5073 (Stephanie Mikovec, Senior Agent) 1-402-935-2157 (Megan Moore, Senior Agent) *WORKS WEEKENDS* 1-402-935-3533 (Peggy Pattavina, Senior Agent) 1-402-935-2331 (Tara Stevens, Senior Agent) 1-402-938-3532 (Megan Wetzel, Senior Agent) (402)935-2114 Kay P. ACH / Check Services (402)935-2212 ACH Processing Main Line ACH / Check Services (402)935-2284 cindy ACH / Check Services Processing / Bank Only (402)935-2295 Chuck ACH / Check Services Processing Manager (402)935-2255 Jasmine Account Review (402)935-2256 Jamie Account Review (402)935-2257 Jamie Account Review (402)935-2328 Chris Account Review (402)935-2333 Luke Account Review (402)935-2114 Kay P. ACH / Check Services (402)935-2212 ACH Processing Main Line ACH / Check Services (402)935-2284 cindy ACH / Check Services Processing / Bank Only (402)935-2295 Chuck ACH / Check Services Processing Manager (402)935-2223 Sheryl AUP Compliance (402)935-2250 Katrina AUP Compliance (402)935-2275 Lisa AUP Compliance (402)935-2332 Julie Gonzales AUP Compliance (402)935-5140 Alahandre Elise(?) AUP Compliance (402)935-2029 Todd Business Development (402)935-5126 Shane Business Development Schedule: 8:30~5PM M-F (402)935-5197 Ken Holston Business Development Business Management & Account Management (402)935-2000 Call Center Inbound Call Center (402)935-2007 Call Center Inbound Line Call Center (402)935-2012 Call Center Inbound Call Center (402)935-2011 Call Center Inbound Call Center (402)935-2014 Call Center Inbound Call Center (402)935-2017 Call Center Inbound: Debit Cards Call Center (402)935-2019 Call Center Inbound Call Center (402)935-2021 Call Center Inbound Call Center (402)935-2022 Call Center Inbound Call Center (402)935-2023 Call Center Inbound Call Center (402)935-2024 Call Center Inbound Call Center (402)935-2025 Call Center Inbound Call Center (402)935-2030 Call Center Inbound Call Center (402)935-2050 Call Center Inbound Call Center (402)935-2053 Call Center Inbound: Premier Services Call Center (402)935-2057 Call Center Inbound Call Center (402)935-2065 Call Center Inbound Call Center (402)935-2079 Call Center Inbound Call Center (402)935-2080 Call Center Inbound Call Center (402)935-2081 Call Center Inbound Call Center (402)935-2082 Premier Service Line Call Center (402)935-2084 Call Center Inbound Call Center (402)935-2085 Call Center Inbound Call Center (402)935-2092 Call Center Inbound Call Center (402)935-2100 Call Center Inbound Call Center Premier Services Line (402)935-2106 Call Center Inbound Call Center Premier Services Line (402)935-2107 Call Center Inbound Call Center (402)935-2124 Call Center Inbound Call Center (402)935-2148 Call Center Inbound Call Center (402)935-2166 Call Center Inbound Call Center (402)935-2194 Call Center Inbound Call Center (402)935-2233 Call Center Inbound Call Center (402)935-2300 Call Center Inbound Call Center (402)935-2323 Call Center Inbound Call Center (402)935-5119 Call Center Inbound Call Center (402)935-2165 Jessica Card Services (402)935-2396 Tamara Spurlock Card Services (402)935-5181 Lisa Weaver Card Services Debit Card Team (402)935-2015 Teresa Rains Charge Backs (402)935-2141 Mikalea Charge Backs (402)935-2152 Anna Charge Backs (402)935-2189 Margaret Charge Backs (402)935-2340 Debbie Charge Backs (402)935-2063 Taj Education Team Product Education (402)935-2064 Dona Education Team (402)935-2116 Elizabeth Executive Escalations Works closely w/Tiffany(detp.mgr). Very Responsive. (402)935-2129 Joe Executive Escalations (402)935-2156 Brian Executive Escalations (402)935-2157 Megan Executive Escalations (402)935-2172 Adam Executive Escalations (402)935-2173 John Executive Escalations (402)935-2174 Jackie Executive Escalations (402)935-2192 Eric Executive Escalations (402)935-2128 Stacy Executive Escalations (402)935-2228 Stacy Executive Escalations (402)935-2238 Tiffany Executive Escalations Manager of Executive Escalations. (402)935-2268 Beth Executive Escalations (402)935-2269 Michelle Executive Escalations Schedule: Tues~Thur 9:30AM~8PM (402)935-2334 Luke Executive Escalations (402)935-5145 Melanie Executive Escalations Schedule: M-F 4PM~Mid. CST (402)935-5146 Leslie Executive Escalations (402)935-5163 Rick Martin Executive Escalations (402)935-2112 Gloria Finance (402)935-2207 Jeremy Finance (402)935-2371 Julie Finance (402)935-2239 Collin Fraud & Security Fraud Prevention (402)935-2267 Mark Fraud & Security Trust & Safety (402)935-2272 Michael Fraud & Security Protection Services (402)935-2366 Suzanne Combes Brown Fraud & Security Risk Management Manager (402)935-2368 Sheryl London Fraud & Security Protection Services: Senior Agent (402)935-5134 Bill Gray Fraud & Security Internal Audit. Mountain View Office: 650-864-8046 (402)935-2044 Paula Adams Global Services Global Help Desk (402)935-2127 Amy Bush Global Services (402)935-2048 Joyce Brown Human Resources Training Department (402)935-2051 Melanie Human Resources Training Department (402)935-2128 Michelle Human Resources HR/Benefits Coordinator (402)935-2169 Sterling Blackwell Human Resources Employee Development (402)935-2283 Amy Human Resources Staffing (402)935-2318 John Latke Human Resources Training Department (402)935-2339 Michelle Mullis Human Resources (402)935-5128 Michelle Human Resources Benefits Coordinator (402)935-2001 IVR Testing Line Internal / IT Tests voice recognition, play around. (402)935-2004 IVR Testing Line Internal / IT Tests voice recognition, etc.. play around (402)935-2026 Password Prompt (?) Internal / IT Line immediately prompts for password. Unsure of it's use. (402)935-2032 Employee Attendance Line Internal / IT (try user: 1234 pass:1234, works to play around with) (402)935-2069 ECS System Testing Internal / IT Play around, not sure of purpose. (402)935-2299 Internal Software Helpdesk Internal / IT (402)935-5100 Employee Attendance Line Internal / IT (user: 1234 / pass: 1234 to play around) (402)935-5151 Hold Music / Advertisement Internal / IT Test Line for Hold Music ? (402)935-5149 Monitoring Line? Internal / IT (402)935-5168 Monitoring Line Internal / IT (402)935-5184 Gene (or Steve) Internal / IT Technical Support Manager (402)935-5199 Call Center Status Line Internal / IT This ext. will place the call center in Emergency or Normal state. (402)935-2274 Matthew Member Services Member Services Supervisor (402)935-2321 Michelle Member Services Supervisor (Sat/Sun/Mon 11A~Mid) (402)935-2357 Terry Dale Member Services (402)935-5161 Tim Loban Merchant Fraud & Risk Weekend Supervisor (Sat/Sun/Mon 11AM~Mid) (402)935-5169 Alicia Merchant Fraud & Risk (402)935-2074 Tammy Galvin Quality Development (402)935-2226 Jenny Quality Development (402)935-2034 Janie Bartlett Resolution Services (402)935-2132 Bryant Resolution Services Team Leader (402)935-2241 Lynn Vogue Resolution Services (402)935-2251 Mike McCormick Resolution Services Resolution Services Supervisor (402)935-2266 Rich H. Resolution Services (402)935-2353 Lorie Kilstrom Resolution Services (402)935-5120 Tim Underlow Resolution Services Product Education Trainer for Resolution Services (402)935-5141 Resolutions Department Line Resolution Services (402)935-2218 Douglas H. Security (402)935-5172 Michell Security (402)935-2002 April Garner Unknown (402)935-2005 Adonocca Banks Unknown (402)935-2010 Nick Unknown (402)935-2013 Pat Unknown (402)935-2018 Vicki Hernandez Unknown (402)935-2020 Mary Jo Unknown (402)935-2028 Megan Unknown (402)935-2039 Jeff Hagan Unknown (402)935-2040 Mary Steeley Unknown (402)935-2041 Michelle Parkins Unknown (402)935-2049 Jason Finer Unknown (402)935-2052 Eduardo(?) Unknown (402)935-2054 Tonya Unknown (402)935-2055 John Freeze Unknown (402)935-2061 Rick Unknown (402)935-2062 Nick Unknown (402)935-2066 Michelle Unknown (402)935-2073 Kelly Shipley Unknown (402)935-2086 Jeff Allen Unknown (402)935-2087 Patience Unknown (402)935-2091 Dawn Mouski Unknown (402)935-2095 Steve Unknown (402)935-2098 Dona Shong Unknown (402)935-2099 Shelly Unknown (402)935-2101 John Unknown (402)935-2103 Latrisha Harris Unknown (402)935-2104 Lisa Hughes Unknown (402)935-2110 Amy Lescott Unknown (402)935-2113 Kelly Unknown (402)935-2115 Maggie Mentato Unknown (402)935-2118 Paul Ingles Unknown (402)935-2119 Stacy Price Unknown (402)935-2123 Kelly Unknown (402)935-2125 Koreen Unknown (402)935-2126 Michelle Unknown (402)935-2134 Cindy Langstrom Unknown (402)935-2136 Lynette Lane Unknown (402)935-2138 Kim Unknown (402)935-2142 Kimberly Unknown (402)935-2149 Mark Rosenthal Unknown (402)935-2150 Eddie Unknown (402)935-2154 Charles Unknown (402)935-2158 Bill Unknown (402)935-2168 Peggy Unknown (402)935-2170 Deb Myer Unknown Schedule: M-F 8AM~4:30PM (402)935-2171 Trish Unknown (402)935-2175 Zack Unknown (402)935-2178 Lashaun Unknown (402)935-2179 Beth Unknown (402)935-2181 Valerie Dasante Unknown (402)935-2182 Erin Crain Unknown (402)935-2183 Frank Unknown (402)935-2184 Kevin Armstrong Unknown (402)935-2186 Emily Heldridge Unknown (402)935-2187 Erin Unknown (402)935-2188 Lamay Unknown (402)935-2201 Ray Unknown (402)935-2203 Sherry Unknown (402)935-2204 Lisa Thompson Unknown (402)935-2205 Kimberly Unknown (402)935-2206 Osma Unknown (402)935-2216 Tracy Unknown (402)935-2217 Shaun Unknown (402)935-2224 Meliss Unknown (402)935-2225 Jim Unknown (402)935-2227 Eric Harrison Unknown (402)935-2129 Name not known Unknown (402)935-2229 unknown Unknown (402)935-2230 Mark Peterson Unknown (402)935-2234 Dave Unknown (402)935-2236 Brock Unknown (402)935-2237 Shaun Unknown (402)935-2240 Angie Anderson Unknown (402)935-2244 Julie Gonzales Unknown (402)935-2246 Sally Unknown (402)935-2253 Deb Unknown (402)935-2254 Ellie Unknown Number changed to 935-1835, per voicemail. (402)935-2259 Tereasa Unknown (402)935-2264 Eric Unknown (402)935-2265 Doug H. Unknown (402)935-2271 Cynthia Unknown (402)935-2273 Leslie Walker Unknown (402)935-2276 Heather Johnson Unknown (402)935-2281 Jason Alexander Unknown (402)935-2288 David Unknown (402)935-2291 John Unknown (402)935-2298 Chris Unknown (402)935-2302 Jim Norway Unknown Call was forwarded to a Nextel Phone Afterhours (management?) (402)935-2305 Amanda Unknown (402)935-2308 Cathy Unknown (402)935-2316 Laurie Unknown (402)935-2317 Jason Unknown (402)935-2322 Jamie Swanson Unknown (402)935-2324 Jessica Carasoul Unknown (402)935-2335 Steve Unknown (402)935-2336 Marissa Unknown (402)935-2341 Laurie Unknown (402)935-2342 Torrence Unknown (402)935-2349 Karen Unknown (402)935-2350 Beverly Unknown (402)935-2351 Karen Lovette Unknown (402)935-2358 John Kimmee Unknown (402)935-2363 Claire Shumiker Unknown (402)935-2364 Mary Viella Unknown (402)935-2365 Frank Unknown (402)935-2367 Mary OBrien Unknown (402)935-2369 Kelly Carson Unknown (402)935-2370 unknown Unknown person answered, unsure, will recheck later. (402)935-2372 Bob Miles Unknown (402)935-2375 Renee Unknown Schedule: Tues~Fri 1:30PM~Mid. (402)935-2376 Foreign Speaking Employee Unknown Foreign Employee.. anyone identify language ? (402)935-2377 David B. Unknown (402)935-2381 Tina Unknown (402)935-2386 Cameron Unknown (402)935-2387 Cindy Unknown (402)935-2391 Alisha Rhea Unknown (402)935-2392 Cindy Kathork Unknown (402)935-2393 Andres Unknown (402)935-2394 Robin Unknown (402)935-2395 Jim Unknown (402)935-2397 Mark Davis Unknown (402)935-2399 Janice Erickson Unknown Schedule: M-F 6AM~2:30PM (402)935-5103 Nicole Unknown (402)935-5105 Natalie Unknown (402)935-5106 Angie Unknown (402)935-5108 Gene Unknown (402)935-5111 Doug Maxum Unknown (402)935-5113 Becky Unknown (402)935-5115 Carrie Unknown (402)935-5116 Paula Baldwin Unknown (402)935-5117 Dave Burchill Unknown (402)935-5121 Andy J. Unknown (402)935-5123 Micheal Jones Unknown (402)935-5129 Marlow Rumington Unknown (402)935-5133 Jeanette Unknown (402)935-5136 Quincy Unknown (402)935-5138 Terrell Anderson Unknown (402)935-5144 Lisa L. Unknown (402)935-5147 Evan McCaul Unknown (402)935-5152 Jessica Palamino Unknown (402)935-5156 Steve Unknown (402)935-5164 Tonya Lynn Unknown (402)935-5165 Devon Unknown (402)935-5171 Carrol Unknown (402)935-5175 Cindy Unknown (402)935-5148 Jeff Lonka Unknown Admin maybe (msg says if urgent, call: 402-490-9749) (402)935-5176 Sheila Unknown (402)935-5178 Unknown Employee Unknown (402)935-5179 Tim Maxwell Unknown (402)935-5185 Rich Unknown (402)935-5186 Jerry Lowe (female) Unknown (402)935-5187 Brian G. Unknown Voicemail says w/Ebay (402)935-5189 Brian Unknown (402)935-5192 Christian Reese Unknown (402)935-5194 Reese Unknown (402)935-5195 Angie Unknown (402)935-5196 Scott Unknown Source Link: http://www.paypalsucks.com/PayPalPhoneNumbers.shtml Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Bitcoinorama on August 04, 2013, 04:32:53 PM ^^H0ly crap, you have numbers for Paypal UK as well? Their automated BS diverting to Ireland or India outsourced customer services sucks!
Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Quix on August 05, 2013, 01:56:48 AM I don't know about your country but in Canada if you sell something the buyer can cancel if you don't deliver within 60 days of the agree upon date. If there is no agreed upon date (E.G. 2 months or more would not count as an agreed upon date) they can cancel any time they like before the product is shipped. The way BFL practises business wouldn't be tolerated in any other industry, I think the problem here is more the number of people with dollar signs in their eyes who will give anyone money for the chance of getting magical money-making machines. It's really not rational, BFL is asking their customers to submit to ridiculous terms that are probably not enforceable just for a chance to own one of their magic boxes next year, maybe if you're lucky.
Any reputable business would at this point stop accepting orders and actually deliver product, even Avalon has been doing that and they're not exactly a fortune 500 operation. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: joeventura on August 21, 2013, 05:03:34 PM Anyone had any direct contact with a specific person with a specific phone number at Paypal?
Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: bcp19 on August 21, 2013, 06:17:10 PM I would of maybe waited even longer but seeing Josh's posts over the last couple weeks has just made me not want to do business with this company regardless of how much profit I might be able to earn with their miners. Still hesitate? 99% of BFL customers (rather investors) will never get positive ROI. That is guaranteed!The smart ones who mine and refuse to sell what they mined WILL eventually get RoI, but when is the question. Now, if you made the statement "Those who used BTC to purchase will never get that amount of BTC back" You could very well be correct. From this point forward, it's pretty much impossible for ANYONE to mine 10,000 BTC even though it has been done in the past. That 10,000 BTC was only worth a PIZZA at one point, it's worth a pretty huge house today. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: k9quaint on August 21, 2013, 06:23:33 PM The smart ones who mine and refuse to sell what they mined WILL eventually get RoI, but when is the question. They might get their USD back, they will never earn back what their investment in BTC. On the other hand, BTC could very easily drop back down to $60 and may never see these valuations again. Also, hoping BTC rises in order to bail out underwater miners is not a very good investment premise. Better to get a refund, then purchase BTC in that case. Zero uncertainty. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: bcp19 on August 21, 2013, 06:29:41 PM The smart ones who mine and refuse to sell what they mined WILL eventually get RoI, but when is the question. They might get their USD back, they will never earn back what their investment in BTC. On the other hand, BTC could very easily drop back down to $60 and may never see these valuations again. Also, hoping BTC rises in order to bail out underwater miners is not a very good investment premise. Better to get a refund, then purchase BTC in that case. Zero uncertainty. BTC is like gold, it will eventually appreciate over time, the question then becomes is the wait worth it? Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Flying Hellfish on August 21, 2013, 09:32:12 PM BTC is like gold, it will eventually appreciate over time, the question then becomes is the wait worth it? Could you use your time machine to go ahead and get me the next winning powerball lottery numbers please. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: bcp19 on August 21, 2013, 09:38:20 PM BTC is like gold, it will eventually appreciate over time, the question then becomes is the wait worth it? Could you use your time machine to go ahead and get me the next winning powerball lottery numbers please. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Phinnaeus Gage on August 22, 2013, 12:21:05 AM BF Labs Inc. has reversed its stance and will now honor all refunds via bitcoins: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=279173.0
Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Street Jammer on August 25, 2013, 03:56:09 PM All sales are final and they use paypal ?
how does that work ? paypal has 45day pre-order terms Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: k9quaint on August 25, 2013, 05:36:33 PM All sales are final and they use paypal ? how does that work ? paypal has 45day pre-order terms A sale is not a sale until the merchandise is shipped to the customer. What BFL is saying is "after you get your stuff, we will not give you your money back". This actually has nothing to do with pre-order investors who have not yet received their miners. ;) Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: Syke on August 26, 2013, 07:51:21 PM All sales are final and they use paypal ? how does that work ? paypal has 45day pre-order terms https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/helpcenter/article/?solutionId=39067&topicID=11500005&m=TCI Quote Guarantees shipment within 20 days from the date of purchase. 20 days. BFL quoting 60+ days for delivery has always been in direct violation of PayPal policies. Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: terrapinflyer on August 27, 2013, 01:06:16 PM Got my refund yesterday!
https://www.dropbox.com/s/eh22z6r1u8fzrdn/Screen%20Shot%202013-08-27%20at%202.05.41%20AM.png (https://www.dropbox.com/s/eh22z6r1u8fzrdn/Screen%20Shot%202013-08-27%20at%202.05.41%20AM.png) After a few hours on the phone and some nasty emails I got my money out of that pit. Even had PP refund a pre order purchased on ebay all in one shot. 8) Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: k9quaint on August 27, 2013, 04:03:05 PM Got my refund yesterday! https://www.dropbox.com/s/eh22z6r1u8fzrdn/Screen%20Shot%202013-08-27%20at%202.05.41%20AM.png After a few hours on the phone and some nasty emails I got my money out of that pit. Even had PP refund a pre order purchased on ebay all in one shot. 8) Good to hear! Could you share the process you went through in more detail so that others can benefit from it? Title: Re: BFL refund through Paypal claim Post by: terrapinflyer on August 27, 2013, 07:19:15 PM Got my refund yesterday! https://www.dropbox.com/s/eh22z6r1u8fzrdn/Screen%20Shot%202013-08-27%20at%202.05.41%20AM.png After a few hours on the phone and some nasty emails I got my money out of that pit. Even had PP refund a pre order purchased on ebay all in one shot. 8) Good to hear! Could you share the process you went through in more detail so that others can benefit from it? Yea for sure. Basically after literally being laughed at by a PP agent I called my bank and explained to them PP's response. They where happy to reverse my charges even though it was way past there 90 day policy. After I called back PP and explained that I had reversed the charges, they told me that this was the only way to open a case after the 45 day limit. They in turn charged BFL and I got my refund that day. All and all it was pretty painless it just took a few hours on the phone and a few joints to calm down after but I win so... I hope this helps some people good luck getting your money back, I already started hashing the money they where holding. |
