BFL refund through Paypal claim

[becoin]

I completely agree that anyone is welcome to waste the FTCs time with this nonsense.

Don't panic!

[Moneymaker1990]

All sales are final is in itself illegal. As long as they can't deliver the item on the day you want your refund they have to give you the refund. That is common business pratice and even law in some countries...

Any good lawyer or judge will tell you its all in the wording, and BFL uses it well. And I quote " Bitforce SC (ASIC) products are shipped according to placement in the order queue, and delivery may take 2 months or more after order. All sales are final."

The statement of "2 months or more" makes denying you a refund legal.  The only way it becomes illegal is if they never deliver the product....ever.  If they discontinue the item and say that it will never ship, THEN you are legally owed a refund.  But, when you paid for your item, they essentially told you it would take at least 2 months.  They never promised before a certain time frame.

Some people have been able to successfully get refunds, and that is totally at the companies discretion.  Its no different that buying a product with a warranty, and then that product breaking after that warranty has expired.  They company promised that under normal use, their product will last ATLEAST that long.  Anything beyond that, they do not have to fix/repair, but if they choose to do it then thats their own discretion.  Same also applies to returns and countless other policies in place everyday.

You are completely incorrect in your understanding of the legal precedent around this issue.
U.S. Consumer Protection Laws are very clear. If they have not actually shipped the merchandise, they cannot deny your request for a refund, regardless of what terms and conditions they have in some arbitrary corner of their website.

^^This
It is amazing to me how the BFL fanbois will excuse almost any behavior by the company, up to and including refusing their customers refunds.

Fanboy I am not.  Yes, I have a Jalapeno, but I also ordered mine in July 2012.  So, someone who ordered 2 months ago who is upset about not getting a refund, I say to them, what do you say to the person who has waited almost a year to get their unit?

I refer you to my post below and the FTC laws governing All Sales Finals and the legality of them offering refunds.  Like it or not, they are within their legal right to deny a refund, just like you are within your legal right to ask for, and put in a claim for one.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=249125.msg2648214#msg2648214

FTC is clear.  All sales final is not binding.  You can always cancel.  Espcially if product has not shipped within 30 days or order, regardless of if you are warned it may be longer than 2 months.

BFL is breaking US FTC laws.

[solitude]

All of these ASIC companies are scams.  Nobody has miners on hand and if they did you'd pay through the nose for one.

The cute little block eruptor USB miner won't even get you back your ROI ever.  Yet people buy it anyway.

I could of sold my BFL preorder on ebay but what's the point when I'll just be charged back eventually, or even worse, end up shipping it to the buyer (assuming I ever receive it to begin with), who mines with it for two weeks, then returns it and then gets a full refund courtesy of paypal.

I spoke with a paypal rep who assured me they'd get refunds to all the people BFL has scammed.

I would of maybe waited even longer but seeing Josh's posts over the last couple weeks has just made me not want to do business with this company regardless of how much profit I might be able to earn with their miners.

[becoin]

I would of maybe waited even longer but seeing Josh's posts over the last couple weeks has just made me not want to do business with this company regardless of how much profit I might be able to earn with their miners.

Still hesitate? 99% of BFL customers (rather investors) will never get positive ROI. That is guaranteed!

[solitude]

Funny how men are so passive and complacent in this day and age.  Can you imagine if this was a company selling mostly jewelry or whatever bullshit women buy, and they never delivered for whatever reason?

The fucking FBI, CIA, NSA, Coast Guard, Army, Marines, and Air Force would descend upon their headquarters.

But since these scammers are selling vaporware to a 100% male audience, nobody complains, and even the major government agencies don't get involved.

How does it feel to be a second class citizen in Obongo's America?

[Viceroy]

a white male audience

[BTCscraper]

Selling jewelry, you say?

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/234-fabulous-bfl-pcb-jewelry.html
https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/235-photos.html

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Selling jewelry, you say?

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/234-fabulous-bfl-pcb-jewelry.html
https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/235-photos.html

Direct for Jody & Ass. Data Wear LLC:

[solitude]

bumping for posterity

[Phinnaeus Gage]

bumping for posterity

+1 (to prove such posts get deleted)

[Viceroy]

"YES, you can get a REFUND from BFL"
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=266945.0

[PuertoLibre]

got my money back through paypal refund.  

You bastard....!

Just kidding, congrats on exercising your rights to...get your money back. <shrug?>

=================

Anyone else interested in getting your money back after BFL refuses?

Go here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=250985.60

A Special Thanks To Ryan Downs For The Following Upper Management
Phone Numbers.
1-408-967-5033 (TOLL NUMBER) Michael Oldenburg, HE WANTS TO HEAR YOURCOMPLAINTS!
1-408-376-7514 (TOLL FAX Number) Ryan Downs, Senior Vice PresidentOperations, PayPal, Inc. and eBay Inc.
1-402-935-2050 (Toll Number)
1-888-215-5506 (Toll Free Number)
1-888-221-1161 (Toll Free Number)
1-408-376-7400 (Toll Number)
1-408-376-7514 (Toll Fax Number) PayPal, San Jose, General Fax #1-650-864-8000 (Toll Number)
1-402-935-2284 (Toll Number -- Banking and Check Issues)
1-402-935-2212 (Toll Number -- ACH Processing & Check Services)
1-402-935-2255 (Toll Number -- Account Review Department)
1-402-935-2257 (Toll Number -- Account Review Department)
1-402-935-2223 (Toll Number -- PayPal Compliance)
1-402-935-2250 (Toll Number -- PayPal Compliance)
1-402-935-2000 (Toll Number -- Customer Service Department)
1-402-935-2007 (Toll Number -- Customer Service Department)
1-402-935-5181 (Toll Number -- Debit Card Services)
1-402-935-2116 (Toll Number -- Escalations Department)
1-402-935-2129 (Toll Number -- Escalations Department)
1-402-935-2238 (Toll Number -- Management, Escalations Department)
1-402-935-2239 (Toll Number -- Fraud Prevention Department)
1-402-935-2251 (Toll Number -- Manager, Resolutions Department)
1-650-251-1101 (Toll FAX Number -- Never Fax w/o a Case Number!)
1-408-376-7514 (Toll FAX Number -- Never Fax w/o a Case Number!)
1-408-967-1005 (Toll Number -- Amanda Pires, PayPal Media Relations)
1-402-537-5755 (Toll FAX Number -- PayPal Chargeback Department)
1-402-938-2337 (Toll FAX Number -- Compliance Department)
1-303-395-2802 (Toll FAX Number -- Compliance Department)
1-402-952-8691 (Thomas, PayPal Executive Dying to Receive Your Call)
1-402-935-2238 (Tiffany Zaporowski, Strategic Risk Operations)
1-402-935-2116 (Elizabeth Morey, Supervisor, Executive Escalations)
1-402-952-8691 (Thomas, Senior Agent, Dying to Receive Your Call)
1-402-935-2172 (Adam Braasch, Senior Agent)
1-402-952-8902 (Gabriel, Agent, Executive Escalations)
1-402-935-2268 (Beth Beutler, Senior Agent)
1-402-935-5146 (Leslie Byrne, Senior Agent)
1-402-935-2399 (Janyce Erikson, Senior Agent)
1-402-935-5145 (Melody Fry, Senior Agent)
1-402-935-2174 (Jackie Hart, Senior Agent)
1-402-935-2229 (Michael Lazure, Senior Agent) *ACH/Wire Expert*
1-402-935-5163 (Rick Martin, Senior Agent)
1-402-935-5073 (Stephanie Mikovec, Senior Agent)
1-402-935-2157 (Megan Moore, Senior Agent) *WORKS WEEKENDS*
1-402-935-3533 (Peggy Pattavina, Senior Agent)
1-402-935-2331 (Tara Stevens, Senior Agent)
1-402-938-3532 (Megan Wetzel, Senior Agent)   
(402)935-2114   Kay P. ACH / Check Services       
(402)935-2212   ACH Processing Main Line ACH / Check Services       
(402)935-2284   cindy ACH / Check Services     Processing / Bank Only    
(402)935-2295   Chuck ACH / Check Services     Processing Manager    
(402)935-2255   Jasmine Account Review       
(402)935-2256   Jamie Account Review       
(402)935-2257   Jamie Account Review       
(402)935-2328   Chris Account Review       
(402)935-2333   Luke Account Review       
(402)935-2114   Kay P. ACH / Check Services       
(402)935-2212   ACH Processing Main Line ACH / Check Services       
(402)935-2284   cindy ACH / Check Services     Processing / Bank Only    
(402)935-2295   Chuck ACH / Check Services     Processing Manager    
(402)935-2223   Sheryl AUP Compliance       
(402)935-2250   Katrina AUP Compliance       
(402)935-2275   Lisa AUP Compliance       
(402)935-2332   Julie Gonzales AUP Compliance       
(402)935-5140   Alahandre Elise(?) AUP Compliance       
(402)935-2029   Todd Business Development       
(402)935-5126   Shane Business Development     Schedule: 8:30~5PM M-F    
(402)935-5197   Ken Holston Business Development     Business Management & Account Management    
(402)935-2000   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2007   Call Center Inbound Line Call Center       
(402)935-2012   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2011   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2014   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2017   Call Center Inbound: Debit Cards Call Center       
(402)935-2019   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2021   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2022   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2023   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2024   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2025   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2030   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2050   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2053   Call Center Inbound: Premier Services Call Center       
(402)935-2057   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2065   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2079   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2080   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2081   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2082   Premier Service Line Call Center       
(402)935-2084   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2085   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2092   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2100   Call Center Inbound Call Center     Premier Services Line    
(402)935-2106   Call Center Inbound Call Center     Premier Services Line    
(402)935-2107   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2124   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2148   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2166   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2194   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2233   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2300   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2323   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-5119   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2165   Jessica Card Services       
(402)935-2396   Tamara Spurlock Card Services       
(402)935-5181   Lisa Weaver Card Services     Debit Card Team    
(402)935-2015   Teresa Rains Charge Backs       
(402)935-2141   Mikalea Charge Backs       
(402)935-2152   Anna Charge Backs       
(402)935-2189   Margaret Charge Backs       
(402)935-2340   Debbie Charge Backs       
(402)935-2063   Taj Education Team     Product Education    
(402)935-2064   Dona Education Team       
(402)935-2116   Elizabeth Executive Escalations     Works closely w/Tiffany(detp.mgr). Very Responsive.    
(402)935-2129   Joe Executive Escalations       
(402)935-2156   Brian Executive Escalations       
(402)935-2157   Megan Executive Escalations       
(402)935-2172   Adam Executive Escalations       
(402)935-2173   John Executive Escalations       
(402)935-2174   Jackie Executive Escalations       
(402)935-2192   Eric Executive Escalations       
(402)935-2128   Stacy Executive Escalations       
(402)935-2228   Stacy Executive Escalations       
(402)935-2238   Tiffany Executive Escalations     Manager of Executive Escalations.    
(402)935-2268   Beth Executive Escalations       
(402)935-2269   Michelle Executive Escalations     Schedule: Tues~Thur 9:30AM~8PM    
(402)935-2334   Luke Executive Escalations       
(402)935-5145   Melanie Executive Escalations     Schedule: M-F 4PM~Mid. CST    
(402)935-5146   Leslie Executive Escalations       
(402)935-5163   Rick Martin Executive Escalations       
(402)935-2112   Gloria Finance       
(402)935-2207   Jeremy Finance       
(402)935-2371   Julie Finance       
(402)935-2239   Collin Fraud & Security     Fraud Prevention    
(402)935-2267   Mark Fraud & Security     Trust & Safety    
(402)935-2272   Michael Fraud & Security     Protection Services    
(402)935-2366   Suzanne Combes Brown Fraud & Security     Risk Management Manager    
(402)935-2368   Sheryl London Fraud & Security     Protection Services: Senior Agent    
(402)935-5134   Bill Gray Fraud & Security     Internal Audit. Mountain View Office: 650-864-8046    
(402)935-2044   Paula Adams Global Services     Global Help Desk    
(402)935-2127   Amy Bush Global Services       
(402)935-2048   Joyce Brown Human Resources     Training Department    
(402)935-2051   Melanie Human Resources     Training Department    
(402)935-2128   Michelle Human Resources     HR/Benefits Coordinator    
(402)935-2169   Sterling Blackwell Human Resources     Employee Development    
(402)935-2283   Amy Human Resources     Staffing    
(402)935-2318   John Latke Human Resources     Training Department    
(402)935-2339   Michelle Mullis Human Resources       
(402)935-5128   Michelle Human Resources     Benefits Coordinator    
(402)935-2001   IVR Testing Line Internal / IT     Tests voice recognition, play around.    
(402)935-2004   IVR Testing Line Internal / IT     Tests voice recognition, etc.. play around    
(402)935-2026   Password Prompt (?) Internal / IT     Line immediately prompts for password. Unsure of it's use.    
(402)935-2032   Employee Attendance Line Internal / IT     (try user: 1234 pass:1234, works to play around with)    
(402)935-2069   ECS System Testing Internal / IT     Play around, not sure of purpose.    
(402)935-2299   Internal Software Helpdesk Internal / IT       
(402)935-5100   Employee Attendance Line Internal / IT     (user: 1234 / pass: 1234 to play around)    
(402)935-5151   Hold Music / Advertisement Internal / IT     Test Line for Hold Music ?    
(402)935-5149   Monitoring Line? Internal / IT       
(402)935-5168   Monitoring Line Internal / IT       
(402)935-5184   Gene (or Steve) Internal / IT     Technical Support Manager    
(402)935-5199   Call Center Status Line Internal / IT     This ext. will place the call center in Emergency or Normal state.   
(402)935-2274   Matthew Member Services     Member Services Supervisor    
(402)935-2321   Michelle Member Services     Supervisor (Sat/Sun/Mon 11A~Mid)    
(402)935-2357   Terry Dale Member Services       
(402)935-5161   Tim Loban Merchant Fraud & Risk     Weekend Supervisor (Sat/Sun/Mon 11AM~Mid)    
(402)935-5169   Alicia Merchant Fraud & Risk       
(402)935-2074   Tammy Galvin Quality Development       
(402)935-2226   Jenny Quality Development       
(402)935-2034   Janie Bartlett Resolution Services       
(402)935-2132   Bryant Resolution Services     Team Leader    
(402)935-2241   Lynn Vogue Resolution Services       
(402)935-2251   Mike McCormick Resolution Services     Resolution Services Supervisor    
(402)935-2266   Rich H. Resolution Services       
(402)935-2353   Lorie Kilstrom Resolution Services       
(402)935-5120   Tim Underlow Resolution Services     Product Education Trainer for Resolution Services    
(402)935-5141   Resolutions Department Line Resolution Services       
(402)935-2218   Douglas H. Security       
(402)935-5172   Michell Security       
(402)935-2002   April Garner Unknown       
(402)935-2005   Adonocca Banks Unknown       
(402)935-2010   Nick Unknown       
(402)935-2013   Pat Unknown       
(402)935-2018   Vicki Hernandez Unknown       
(402)935-2020   Mary Jo Unknown       
(402)935-2028   Megan Unknown       
(402)935-2039   Jeff Hagan Unknown       
(402)935-2040   Mary Steeley Unknown       
(402)935-2041   Michelle Parkins Unknown       
(402)935-2049   Jason Finer Unknown       
(402)935-2052   Eduardo(?) Unknown       
(402)935-2054   Tonya Unknown       
(402)935-2055   John Freeze Unknown       
(402)935-2061   Rick Unknown       
(402)935-2062   Nick Unknown       
(402)935-2066   Michelle Unknown       
(402)935-2073   Kelly Shipley Unknown       
(402)935-2086   Jeff Allen Unknown       
(402)935-2087   Patience Unknown       
(402)935-2091   Dawn Mouski Unknown       
(402)935-2095   Steve Unknown       
(402)935-2098   Dona Shong Unknown       
(402)935-2099   Shelly Unknown       
(402)935-2101   John Unknown       
(402)935-2103   Latrisha Harris Unknown       
(402)935-2104   Lisa Hughes Unknown       
(402)935-2110   Amy Lescott Unknown       
(402)935-2113   Kelly Unknown       
(402)935-2115   Maggie Mentato Unknown       
(402)935-2118   Paul Ingles Unknown       
(402)935-2119   Stacy Price Unknown       
(402)935-2123   Kelly Unknown       
(402)935-2125   Koreen Unknown       
(402)935-2126   Michelle Unknown       
(402)935-2134   Cindy Langstrom Unknown       
(402)935-2136   Lynette Lane Unknown       
(402)935-2138   Kim Unknown       
(402)935-2142   Kimberly Unknown       
(402)935-2149   Mark Rosenthal Unknown       
(402)935-2150   Eddie Unknown       
(402)935-2154   Charles Unknown       
(402)935-2158   Bill Unknown       
(402)935-2168   Peggy Unknown       
(402)935-2170   Deb Myer Unknown     Schedule: M-F 8AM~4:30PM    
(402)935-2171   Trish Unknown       
(402)935-2175   Zack Unknown       
(402)935-2178   Lashaun Unknown       
(402)935-2179   Beth Unknown       
(402)935-2181   Valerie Dasante Unknown       
(402)935-2182   Erin Crain Unknown       
(402)935-2183   Frank Unknown       
(402)935-2184   Kevin Armstrong Unknown       
(402)935-2186   Emily Heldridge Unknown       
(402)935-2187   Erin Unknown       
(402)935-2188   Lamay Unknown       
(402)935-2201   Ray Unknown       
(402)935-2203   Sherry Unknown       
(402)935-2204   Lisa Thompson Unknown       
(402)935-2205   Kimberly Unknown       
(402)935-2206   Osma Unknown       
(402)935-2216   Tracy Unknown       
(402)935-2217   Shaun Unknown       
(402)935-2224   Meliss Unknown       
(402)935-2225   Jim Unknown       
(402)935-2227   Eric Harrison Unknown       
(402)935-2129   Name not known Unknown       
(402)935-2229   unknown Unknown       
(402)935-2230   Mark Peterson Unknown       
(402)935-2234   Dave Unknown       
(402)935-2236   Brock Unknown       
(402)935-2237   Shaun Unknown       
(402)935-2240   Angie Anderson Unknown       
(402)935-2244   Julie Gonzales Unknown       
(402)935-2246   Sally Unknown       
(402)935-2253   Deb Unknown       
(402)935-2254   Ellie Unknown     Number changed to 935-1835, per voicemail.    
(402)935-2259   Tereasa Unknown       
(402)935-2264   Eric Unknown       
(402)935-2265   Doug H. Unknown       
(402)935-2271   Cynthia Unknown       
(402)935-2273   Leslie Walker Unknown       
(402)935-2276   Heather Johnson Unknown       
(402)935-2281   Jason Alexander Unknown       
(402)935-2288   David Unknown       
(402)935-2291   John Unknown       
(402)935-2298   Chris Unknown       
(402)935-2302   Jim Norway Unknown     Call was forwarded to a Nextel Phone Afterhours (management?)    
(402)935-2305   Amanda Unknown       
(402)935-2308   Cathy Unknown       
(402)935-2316   Laurie Unknown       
(402)935-2317   Jason Unknown       
(402)935-2322   Jamie Swanson Unknown       
(402)935-2324   Jessica Carasoul Unknown       
(402)935-2335   Steve Unknown       
(402)935-2336   Marissa Unknown       
(402)935-2341   Laurie Unknown       
(402)935-2342   Torrence Unknown       
(402)935-2349   Karen Unknown       
(402)935-2350   Beverly Unknown       
(402)935-2351   Karen Lovette Unknown       
(402)935-2358   John Kimmee Unknown       
(402)935-2363   Claire Shumiker Unknown       
(402)935-2364   Mary Viella Unknown       
(402)935-2365   Frank Unknown       
(402)935-2367   Mary OBrien Unknown       
(402)935-2369   Kelly Carson Unknown       
(402)935-2370   unknown Unknown     person answered, unsure, will recheck later.    
(402)935-2372   Bob Miles Unknown       
(402)935-2375   Renee Unknown     Schedule: Tues~Fri 1:30PM~Mid.    
(402)935-2376   Foreign Speaking Employee Unknown     Foreign Employee.. anyone identify language ?    
(402)935-2377   David B. Unknown       
(402)935-2381   Tina Unknown       
(402)935-2386   Cameron Unknown       
(402)935-2387   Cindy Unknown       
(402)935-2391   Alisha Rhea Unknown       
(402)935-2392   Cindy Kathork Unknown       
(402)935-2393   Andres Unknown       
(402)935-2394   Robin Unknown       
(402)935-2395   Jim Unknown       
(402)935-2397   Mark Davis Unknown       
(402)935-2399   Janice Erickson Unknown     Schedule: M-F 6AM~2:30PM    
(402)935-5103   Nicole Unknown       
(402)935-5105   Natalie Unknown       
(402)935-5106   Angie Unknown       
(402)935-5108   Gene Unknown       
(402)935-5111   Doug Maxum Unknown       
(402)935-5113   Becky Unknown       
(402)935-5115   Carrie Unknown       
(402)935-5116   Paula Baldwin Unknown       
(402)935-5117   Dave Burchill Unknown       
(402)935-5121   Andy J. Unknown       
(402)935-5123   Micheal Jones Unknown       
(402)935-5129   Marlow Rumington Unknown       
(402)935-5133   Jeanette Unknown       
(402)935-5136   Quincy Unknown       
(402)935-5138   Terrell Anderson Unknown       
(402)935-5144   Lisa L. Unknown       
(402)935-5147   Evan McCaul Unknown       
(402)935-5152   Jessica Palamino Unknown       
(402)935-5156   Steve Unknown       
(402)935-5164   Tonya Lynn Unknown       
(402)935-5165   Devon Unknown       
(402)935-5171   Carrol Unknown       
(402)935-5175   Cindy Unknown       
(402)935-5148   Jeff Lonka Unknown     Admin maybe (msg says if urgent, call: 402-490-9749)    
(402)935-5176   Sheila Unknown       
(402)935-5178   Unknown Employee Unknown       
(402)935-5179   Tim Maxwell Unknown       
(402)935-5185   Rich Unknown       
(402)935-5186   Jerry Lowe (female) Unknown       
(402)935-5187   Brian G. Unknown     Voicemail says w/Ebay    
(402)935-5189   Brian Unknown       
(402)935-5192   Christian Reese Unknown       
(402)935-5194   Reese Unknown       
(402)935-5195   Angie Unknown       
(402)935-5196   Scott Unknown

Source Link: http://www.paypalsucks.com/PayPalPhoneNumbers.shtml

In case anyone needs special Paypal number, they are listed above.

[Bitcoinorama]

^^H0ly crap, you have numbers for Paypal UK as well? Their automated BS diverting to Ireland or India outsourced customer services sucks!

[Quix]

I don't know about your country but in Canada if you sell something the buyer can cancel if you don't deliver within 60 days of the agree upon date. If there is no agreed upon date (E.G. 2 months or more would not count as an agreed upon date) they can cancel any time they like before the product is shipped. The way BFL practises business wouldn't be tolerated in any other industry, I think the problem here is more the number of people with dollar signs in their eyes who will give anyone money for the chance of getting magical money-making machines. It's really not rational, BFL is asking their customers to submit to ridiculous terms that are probably not enforceable just for a chance to own one of their magic boxes next year, maybe if you're lucky.

Any reputable business would at this point stop accepting orders and actually deliver product, even Avalon has been doing that and they're not exactly a fortune 500 operation.

[joeventura]

Anyone had any direct contact with a specific person with a specific phone number at Paypal?

[bcp19]

I would of maybe waited even longer but seeing Josh's posts over the last couple weeks has just made me not want to do business with this company regardless of how much profit I might be able to earn with their miners.

Still hesitate? 99% of BFL customers (rather investors) will never get positive ROI. That is guaranteed!

Actually, it is not guaranteed unless the value of BTC stagnates and never climbs above it's current value.

The smart ones who mine and refuse to sell what they mined WILL eventually get RoI, but when is the question.

Now, if you made the statement "Those who used BTC to purchase will never get that amount of BTC back"  You could very well be correct.  From this point forward, it's pretty much impossible for ANYONE to mine 10,000 BTC even though it has been done in the past.  That 10,000 BTC was only worth a PIZZA at one point, it's worth a pretty huge house today.

[k9quaint]

The smart ones who mine and refuse to sell what they mined WILL eventually get RoI, but when is the question.

They might get their USD back, they will never earn back what their investment in BTC. On the other hand, BTC could very easily drop back down to $60 and may never see these valuations again.

Also, hoping BTC rises in order to bail out underwater miners is not a very good investment premise.
Better to get a refund, then purchase BTC in that case. Zero uncertainty.

[bcp19]

The smart ones who mine and refuse to sell what they mined WILL eventually get RoI, but when is the question.

They might get their USD back, they will never earn back what their investment in BTC. On the other hand, BTC could very easily drop back down to $60 and may never see these valuations again.

Also, hoping BTC rises in order to bail out underwater miners is not a very good investment premise.
Better to get a refund, then purchase BTC in that case. Zero uncertainty.

It's not a hope.  It will happen, the only question becomes when.  Gold used to be $34 an ounce.  How many people bought when it was shooting up to $800 only to see it fall to $400?  How many despaired and sold out and how many held and sold at $1600 or more? 

BTC is like gold, it will eventually appreciate over time, the question then becomes is the wait worth it?

[Flying Hellfish]

BTC is like gold, it will eventually appreciate over time, the question then becomes is the wait worth it?

Could you use your time machine to go ahead and get me the next winning powerball lottery numbers please.

[bcp19]

BTC is like gold, it will eventually appreciate over time, the question then becomes is the wait worth it?

Could you use your time machine to go ahead and get me the next winning powerball lottery numbers please.

No. I never warp the space time continum for personal glory or greed.