BFL refund through Paypal claim

[Lohoris]

If you still haven't charged back your credit card / paypal / contacted the FTC, what's your reason?

It's clear these guys aren't shipping Singles and are full of shit

They can't even finish their day 1 order, lol

Because they are stupid&delusional, I'd say?

[PuertoLibre]

got my money back through paypal refund.  

You bastard....!

Just kidding, congrats on exercising your rights to...get your money back. <shrug?>

=================

Anyone else interested in getting your money back after BFL refuses?

Go here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=250985.60

A Special Thanks To Ryan Downs For The Following Upper Management
Phone Numbers.
1-408-967-5033 (TOLL NUMBER) Michael Oldenburg, HE WANTS TO HEAR YOURCOMPLAINTS!
1-408-376-7514 (TOLL FAX Number) Ryan Downs, Senior Vice PresidentOperations, PayPal, Inc. and eBay Inc.
1-402-935-2050 (Toll Number)
1-888-215-5506 (Toll Free Number)
1-888-221-1161 (Toll Free Number)
1-408-376-7400 (Toll Number)
1-408-376-7514 (Toll Fax Number) PayPal, San Jose, General Fax #1-650-864-8000 (Toll Number)
1-402-935-2284 (Toll Number -- Banking and Check Issues)
1-402-935-2212 (Toll Number -- ACH Processing & Check Services)
1-402-935-2255 (Toll Number -- Account Review Department)
1-402-935-2257 (Toll Number -- Account Review Department)
1-402-935-2223 (Toll Number -- PayPal Compliance)
1-402-935-2250 (Toll Number -- PayPal Compliance)
1-402-935-2000 (Toll Number -- Customer Service Department)
1-402-935-2007 (Toll Number -- Customer Service Department)
1-402-935-5181 (Toll Number -- Debit Card Services)
1-402-935-2116 (Toll Number -- Escalations Department)
1-402-935-2129 (Toll Number -- Escalations Department)
1-402-935-2238 (Toll Number -- Management, Escalations Department)
1-402-935-2239 (Toll Number -- Fraud Prevention Department)
1-402-935-2251 (Toll Number -- Manager, Resolutions Department)
1-650-251-1101 (Toll FAX Number -- Never Fax w/o a Case Number!)
1-408-376-7514 (Toll FAX Number -- Never Fax w/o a Case Number!)
1-408-967-1005 (Toll Number -- Amanda Pires, PayPal Media Relations)
1-402-537-5755 (Toll FAX Number -- PayPal Chargeback Department)
1-402-938-2337 (Toll FAX Number -- Compliance Department)
1-303-395-2802 (Toll FAX Number -- Compliance Department)
1-402-952-8691 (Thomas, PayPal Executive Dying to Receive Your Call)
1-402-935-2238 (Tiffany Zaporowski, Strategic Risk Operations)
1-402-935-2116 (Elizabeth Morey, Supervisor, Executive Escalations)
1-402-952-8691 (Thomas, Senior Agent, Dying to Receive Your Call)
1-402-935-2172 (Adam Braasch, Senior Agent)
1-402-952-8902 (Gabriel, Agent, Executive Escalations)
1-402-935-2268 (Beth Beutler, Senior Agent)
1-402-935-5146 (Leslie Byrne, Senior Agent)
1-402-935-2399 (Janyce Erikson, Senior Agent)
1-402-935-5145 (Melody Fry, Senior Agent)
1-402-935-2174 (Jackie Hart, Senior Agent)
1-402-935-2229 (Michael Lazure, Senior Agent) *ACH/Wire Expert*
1-402-935-5163 (Rick Martin, Senior Agent)
1-402-935-5073 (Stephanie Mikovec, Senior Agent)
1-402-935-2157 (Megan Moore, Senior Agent) *WORKS WEEKENDS*
1-402-935-3533 (Peggy Pattavina, Senior Agent)
1-402-935-2331 (Tara Stevens, Senior Agent)
1-402-938-3532 (Megan Wetzel, Senior Agent)   
(402)935-2114   Kay P. ACH / Check Services       
(402)935-2212   ACH Processing Main Line ACH / Check Services       
(402)935-2284   cindy ACH / Check Services     Processing / Bank Only    
(402)935-2295   Chuck ACH / Check Services     Processing Manager    
(402)935-2255   Jasmine Account Review       
(402)935-2256   Jamie Account Review       
(402)935-2257   Jamie Account Review       
(402)935-2328   Chris Account Review       
(402)935-2333   Luke Account Review       
(402)935-2114   Kay P. ACH / Check Services       
(402)935-2212   ACH Processing Main Line ACH / Check Services       
(402)935-2284   cindy ACH / Check Services     Processing / Bank Only    
(402)935-2295   Chuck ACH / Check Services     Processing Manager    
(402)935-2223   Sheryl AUP Compliance       
(402)935-2250   Katrina AUP Compliance       
(402)935-2275   Lisa AUP Compliance       
(402)935-2332   Julie Gonzales AUP Compliance       
(402)935-5140   Alahandre Elise(?) AUP Compliance       
(402)935-2029   Todd Business Development       
(402)935-5126   Shane Business Development     Schedule: 8:30~5PM M-F    
(402)935-5197   Ken Holston Business Development     Business Management & Account Management    
(402)935-2000   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2007   Call Center Inbound Line Call Center       
(402)935-2012   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2011   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2014   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2017   Call Center Inbound: Debit Cards Call Center       
(402)935-2019   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2021   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2022   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2023   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2024   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2025   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2030   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2050   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2053   Call Center Inbound: Premier Services Call Center       
(402)935-2057   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2065   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2079   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2080   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2081   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2082   Premier Service Line Call Center       
(402)935-2084   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2085   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2092   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2100   Call Center Inbound Call Center     Premier Services Line    
(402)935-2106   Call Center Inbound Call Center     Premier Services Line    
(402)935-2107   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2124   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2148   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2166   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2194   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2233   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2300   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2323   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-5119   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2165   Jessica Card Services       
(402)935-2396   Tamara Spurlock Card Services       
(402)935-5181   Lisa Weaver Card Services     Debit Card Team    
(402)935-2015   Teresa Rains Charge Backs       
(402)935-2141   Mikalea Charge Backs       
(402)935-2152   Anna Charge Backs       
(402)935-2189   Margaret Charge Backs       
(402)935-2340   Debbie Charge Backs       
(402)935-2063   Taj Education Team     Product Education    
(402)935-2064   Dona Education Team       
(402)935-2116   Elizabeth Executive Escalations     Works closely w/Tiffany(detp.mgr). Very Responsive.    
(402)935-2129   Joe Executive Escalations       
(402)935-2156   Brian Executive Escalations       
(402)935-2157   Megan Executive Escalations       
(402)935-2172   Adam Executive Escalations       
(402)935-2173   John Executive Escalations       
(402)935-2174   Jackie Executive Escalations       
(402)935-2192   Eric Executive Escalations       
(402)935-2128   Stacy Executive Escalations       
(402)935-2228   Stacy Executive Escalations       
(402)935-2238   Tiffany Executive Escalations     Manager of Executive Escalations.    
(402)935-2268   Beth Executive Escalations       
(402)935-2269   Michelle Executive Escalations     Schedule: Tues~Thur 9:30AM~8PM    
(402)935-2334   Luke Executive Escalations       
(402)935-5145   Melanie Executive Escalations     Schedule: M-F 4PM~Mid. CST    
(402)935-5146   Leslie Executive Escalations       
(402)935-5163   Rick Martin Executive Escalations       
(402)935-2112   Gloria Finance       
(402)935-2207   Jeremy Finance       
(402)935-2371   Julie Finance       
(402)935-2239   Collin Fraud & Security     Fraud Prevention    
(402)935-2267   Mark Fraud & Security     Trust & Safety    
(402)935-2272   Michael Fraud & Security     Protection Services    
(402)935-2366   Suzanne Combes Brown Fraud & Security     Risk Management Manager    
(402)935-2368   Sheryl London Fraud & Security     Protection Services: Senior Agent    
(402)935-5134   Bill Gray Fraud & Security     Internal Audit. Mountain View Office: 650-864-8046    
(402)935-2044   Paula Adams Global Services     Global Help Desk    
(402)935-2127   Amy Bush Global Services       
(402)935-2048   Joyce Brown Human Resources     Training Department    
(402)935-2051   Melanie Human Resources     Training Department    
(402)935-2128   Michelle Human Resources     HR/Benefits Coordinator    
(402)935-2169   Sterling Blackwell Human Resources     Employee Development    
(402)935-2283   Amy Human Resources     Staffing    
(402)935-2318   John Latke Human Resources     Training Department    
(402)935-2339   Michelle Mullis Human Resources       
(402)935-5128   Michelle Human Resources     Benefits Coordinator    
(402)935-2001   IVR Testing Line Internal / IT     Tests voice recognition, play around.    
(402)935-2004   IVR Testing Line Internal / IT     Tests voice recognition, etc.. play around    
(402)935-2026   Password Prompt (?) Internal / IT     Line immediately prompts for password. Unsure of it's use.    
(402)935-2032   Employee Attendance Line Internal / IT     (try user: 1234 pass:1234, works to play around with)    
(402)935-2069   ECS System Testing Internal / IT     Play around, not sure of purpose.    
(402)935-2299   Internal Software Helpdesk Internal / IT       
(402)935-5100   Employee Attendance Line Internal / IT     (user: 1234 / pass: 1234 to play around)    
(402)935-5151   Hold Music / Advertisement Internal / IT     Test Line for Hold Music ?    
(402)935-5149   Monitoring Line? Internal / IT       
(402)935-5168   Monitoring Line Internal / IT       
(402)935-5184   Gene (or Steve) Internal / IT     Technical Support Manager    
(402)935-5199   Call Center Status Line Internal / IT     This ext. will place the call center in Emergency or Normal state.   
(402)935-2274   Matthew Member Services     Member Services Supervisor    
(402)935-2321   Michelle Member Services     Supervisor (Sat/Sun/Mon 11A~Mid)    
(402)935-2357   Terry Dale Member Services       
(402)935-5161   Tim Loban Merchant Fraud & Risk     Weekend Supervisor (Sat/Sun/Mon 11AM~Mid)    
(402)935-5169   Alicia Merchant Fraud & Risk       
(402)935-2074   Tammy Galvin Quality Development       
(402)935-2226   Jenny Quality Development       
(402)935-2034   Janie Bartlett Resolution Services       
(402)935-2132   Bryant Resolution Services     Team Leader    
(402)935-2241   Lynn Vogue Resolution Services       
(402)935-2251   Mike McCormick Resolution Services     Resolution Services Supervisor    
(402)935-2266   Rich H. Resolution Services       
(402)935-2353   Lorie Kilstrom Resolution Services       
(402)935-5120   Tim Underlow Resolution Services     Product Education Trainer for Resolution Services    
(402)935-5141   Resolutions Department Line Resolution Services       
(402)935-2218   Douglas H. Security       
(402)935-5172   Michell Security       
(402)935-2002   April Garner Unknown       
(402)935-2005   Adonocca Banks Unknown       
(402)935-2010   Nick Unknown       
(402)935-2013   Pat Unknown       
(402)935-2018   Vicki Hernandez Unknown       
(402)935-2020   Mary Jo Unknown       
(402)935-2028   Megan Unknown       
(402)935-2039   Jeff Hagan Unknown       
(402)935-2040   Mary Steeley Unknown       
(402)935-2041   Michelle Parkins Unknown       
(402)935-2049   Jason Finer Unknown       
(402)935-2052   Eduardo(?) Unknown       
(402)935-2054   Tonya Unknown       
(402)935-2055   John Freeze Unknown       
(402)935-2061   Rick Unknown       
(402)935-2062   Nick Unknown       
(402)935-2066   Michelle Unknown       
(402)935-2073   Kelly Shipley Unknown       
(402)935-2086   Jeff Allen Unknown       
(402)935-2087   Patience Unknown       
(402)935-2091   Dawn Mouski Unknown       
(402)935-2095   Steve Unknown       
(402)935-2098   Dona Shong Unknown       
(402)935-2099   Shelly Unknown       
(402)935-2101   John Unknown       
(402)935-2103   Latrisha Harris Unknown       
(402)935-2104   Lisa Hughes Unknown       
(402)935-2110   Amy Lescott Unknown       
(402)935-2113   Kelly Unknown       
(402)935-2115   Maggie Mentato Unknown       
(402)935-2118   Paul Ingles Unknown       
(402)935-2119   Stacy Price Unknown       
(402)935-2123   Kelly Unknown       
(402)935-2125   Koreen Unknown       
(402)935-2126   Michelle Unknown       
(402)935-2134   Cindy Langstrom Unknown       
(402)935-2136   Lynette Lane Unknown       
(402)935-2138   Kim Unknown       
(402)935-2142   Kimberly Unknown       
(402)935-2149   Mark Rosenthal Unknown       
(402)935-2150   Eddie Unknown       
(402)935-2154   Charles Unknown       
(402)935-2158   Bill Unknown       
(402)935-2168   Peggy Unknown       
(402)935-2170   Deb Myer Unknown     Schedule: M-F 8AM~4:30PM    
(402)935-2171   Trish Unknown       
(402)935-2175   Zack Unknown       
(402)935-2178   Lashaun Unknown       
(402)935-2179   Beth Unknown       
(402)935-2181   Valerie Dasante Unknown       
(402)935-2182   Erin Crain Unknown       
(402)935-2183   Frank Unknown       
(402)935-2184   Kevin Armstrong Unknown       
(402)935-2186   Emily Heldridge Unknown       
(402)935-2187   Erin Unknown       
(402)935-2188   Lamay Unknown       
(402)935-2201   Ray Unknown       
(402)935-2203   Sherry Unknown       
(402)935-2204   Lisa Thompson Unknown       
(402)935-2205   Kimberly Unknown       
(402)935-2206   Osma Unknown       
(402)935-2216   Tracy Unknown       
(402)935-2217   Shaun Unknown       
(402)935-2224   Meliss Unknown       
(402)935-2225   Jim Unknown       
(402)935-2227   Eric Harrison Unknown       
(402)935-2129   Name not known Unknown       
(402)935-2229   unknown Unknown       
(402)935-2230   Mark Peterson Unknown       
(402)935-2234   Dave Unknown       
(402)935-2236   Brock Unknown       
(402)935-2237   Shaun Unknown       
(402)935-2240   Angie Anderson Unknown       
(402)935-2244   Julie Gonzales Unknown       
(402)935-2246   Sally Unknown       
(402)935-2253   Deb Unknown       
(402)935-2254   Ellie Unknown     Number changed to 935-1835, per voicemail.    
(402)935-2259   Tereasa Unknown       
(402)935-2264   Eric Unknown       
(402)935-2265   Doug H. Unknown       
(402)935-2271   Cynthia Unknown       
(402)935-2273   Leslie Walker Unknown       
(402)935-2276   Heather Johnson Unknown       
(402)935-2281   Jason Alexander Unknown       
(402)935-2288   David Unknown       
(402)935-2291   John Unknown       
(402)935-2298   Chris Unknown       
(402)935-2302   Jim Norway Unknown     Call was forwarded to a Nextel Phone Afterhours (management?)    
(402)935-2305   Amanda Unknown       
(402)935-2308   Cathy Unknown       
(402)935-2316   Laurie Unknown       
(402)935-2317   Jason Unknown       
(402)935-2322   Jamie Swanson Unknown       
(402)935-2324   Jessica Carasoul Unknown       
(402)935-2335   Steve Unknown       
(402)935-2336   Marissa Unknown       
(402)935-2341   Laurie Unknown       
(402)935-2342   Torrence Unknown       
(402)935-2349   Karen Unknown       
(402)935-2350   Beverly Unknown       
(402)935-2351   Karen Lovette Unknown       
(402)935-2358   John Kimmee Unknown       
(402)935-2363   Claire Shumiker Unknown       
(402)935-2364   Mary Viella Unknown       
(402)935-2365   Frank Unknown       
(402)935-2367   Mary OBrien Unknown       
(402)935-2369   Kelly Carson Unknown       
(402)935-2370   unknown Unknown     person answered, unsure, will recheck later.    
(402)935-2372   Bob Miles Unknown       
(402)935-2375   Renee Unknown     Schedule: Tues~Fri 1:30PM~Mid.    
(402)935-2376   Foreign Speaking Employee Unknown     Foreign Employee.. anyone identify language ?    
(402)935-2377   David B. Unknown       
(402)935-2381   Tina Unknown       
(402)935-2386   Cameron Unknown       
(402)935-2387   Cindy Unknown       
(402)935-2391   Alisha Rhea Unknown       
(402)935-2392   Cindy Kathork Unknown       
(402)935-2393   Andres Unknown       
(402)935-2394   Robin Unknown       
(402)935-2395   Jim Unknown       
(402)935-2397   Mark Davis Unknown       
(402)935-2399   Janice Erickson Unknown     Schedule: M-F 6AM~2:30PM    
(402)935-5103   Nicole Unknown       
(402)935-5105   Natalie Unknown       
(402)935-5106   Angie Unknown       
(402)935-5108   Gene Unknown       
(402)935-5111   Doug Maxum Unknown       
(402)935-5113   Becky Unknown       
(402)935-5115   Carrie Unknown       
(402)935-5116   Paula Baldwin Unknown       
(402)935-5117   Dave Burchill Unknown       
(402)935-5121   Andy J. Unknown       
(402)935-5123   Micheal Jones Unknown       
(402)935-5129   Marlow Rumington Unknown       
(402)935-5133   Jeanette Unknown       
(402)935-5136   Quincy Unknown       
(402)935-5138   Terrell Anderson Unknown       
(402)935-5144   Lisa L. Unknown       
(402)935-5147   Evan McCaul Unknown       
(402)935-5152   Jessica Palamino Unknown       
(402)935-5156   Steve Unknown       
(402)935-5164   Tonya Lynn Unknown       
(402)935-5165   Devon Unknown       
(402)935-5171   Carrol Unknown       
(402)935-5175   Cindy Unknown       
(402)935-5148   Jeff Lonka Unknown     Admin maybe (msg says if urgent, call: 402-490-9749)    
(402)935-5176   Sheila Unknown       
(402)935-5178   Unknown Employee Unknown       
(402)935-5179   Tim Maxwell Unknown       
(402)935-5185   Rich Unknown       
(402)935-5186   Jerry Lowe (female) Unknown       
(402)935-5187   Brian G. Unknown     Voicemail says w/Ebay    
(402)935-5189   Brian Unknown       
(402)935-5192   Christian Reese Unknown       
(402)935-5194   Reese Unknown       
(402)935-5195   Angie Unknown       
(402)935-5196   Scott Unknown

Source Link: http://www.paypalsucks.com/PayPalPhoneNumbers.shtml

[Bicknellski]

http://www.ic3.gov/faq/default.aspx

Q: Can I file a complaint if I have been victimized by an individual or company in the United States, but I am not a citizen of the United States?
If one of the two parties involved is located within the United States, please feel free to file a complaint.

[vcsmith]

PayPal turned down my refund within minutes. The reason stated was "This dispute closed because it was opened for more than 45 days after the transaction date or did not meet other filing criteria."

I contacted PayPal by phone and received the same response, even though I am a long-time account holder.  PayPal did promise to contact BFL and ask them to ship my order--for whatever that's worth.

My next step has been to contact PayPal's fraud department to point out the blatant and ongoing violation of their terms of service for pre-order sales.  I believe this is BFL's Achilles heel.  BFL needs PayPal.

FYI: fraud@paypal.com

The PayPal rep I spoke with agreed with my assessment that BFL is violating the TOS.

From PayPal's FAQ:

Does PayPal permit transactions for pre-sale items?

A pre-sale item is advertised for sale before the seller actually has the item. Often, these items are sold before they are available to the general public.

A seller might use the money from the pre-sale of an item to purchase the item.

PayPal permits pre-sales on a limited basis as long as the seller:

    Guarantees shipment within 20 days from the date of purchase.
    Clearly identifies the item as a pre-sale.
    Provides proof, if needed, that they can successfully deliver the product (supplier information, purchase invoices, shipping information, or delivery confirmation).

I don't expect to ever receive a product from BFL, but I'm not laying down for them.

Let's keep the pressure on PayPal and maybe they can help BFL find their checkbook.

[PuertoLibre]

The AUP folks might be able to address your issues:

(402)935-2223   Sheryl AUP Compliance      
(402)935-2250   Katrina AUP Compliance      
(402)935-2275   Lisa AUP Compliance      
(402)935-2332   Julie Gonzales AUP Compliance      
(402)935-5140   Alahandre Elise(?) AUP Compliance  

AUP = Account Use Policy (If I recall correctly)
AUP = TOS enforcement (Terms Of Service)

(402)935-2255   Jasmine Account Review      
(402)935-2256   Jamie Account Review      
(402)935-2257   Jamie Account Review      
(402)935-2328   Chris Account Review      
(402)935-2333   Luke Account Review      

(402)935-2239   Collin Fraud & Security     Fraud Prevention    
(402)935-2267   Mark Fraud & Security     Trust & Safety    
(402)935-2272   Michael Fraud & Security     Protection Services    
(402)935-2366   Suzanne Combes Brown Fraud & Security     Risk Management Manager    
(402)935-2368   Sheryl London Fraud & Security     Protection Services: Senior Agent    
(402)935-5134   Bill Gray Fraud & Security     Internal Audit. Mountain View Office: 650-864-8046

(402)935-2015   Teresa Rains Charge Backs       
(402)935-2141   Mikalea Charge Backs       
(402)935-2152   Anna Charge Backs       
(402)935-2189   Margaret Charge Backs       
(402)935-2340   Debbie Charge Backs   

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Let's see what kind of pussies BFL truly is: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=255830.0

[PuertoLibre]

Let's see what kind of pussies BFL truly is: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=255830.0

Have you been sued yet PG?

(You scoundrel!)

[solitude]

So BFL doesn't even bother to post shipping updates anymore?  

*Scamming Intensifies*

I guess even they got sick of claiming to be shipping June 23rd Singles

[ASIC-K]

fyi, paypal just refunded me my bfl order

[Loredo]

fyi, paypal just refunded me my bfl order

I'd suggest the following to anyone fortunate enough to have had success in this way, in order to be of assistance to the most people reading this thread:

describe the circumstances; i.e.:
-->were you within 45 days? 
-->did you call PayPal directly? 
-->did you make some allegation (such as Paypal TOS violation) against BFL?

Again, just a suggestion...

[polarhei]

Within 45 days, everything you can do as people are expected to have tracking number issued by postal service like USPS at least.

I think the lab is the threat

[solitude]

fyi, paypal just refunded me my bfl order

When did you order ?

[firefop]

All sales are final is in itself illegal. As long as they can't deliver the item on the day you want your refund they have to give you the refund. That is common business pratice and even law in some countries...

Any good lawyer or judge will tell you its all in the wording, and BFL uses it well. And I quote " Bitforce SC (ASIC) products are shipped according to placement in the order queue, and delivery may take 2 months or more after order. All sales are final."

The statement of "2 months or more" makes denying you a refund legal.  The only way it becomes illegal is if they never deliver the product....ever.  If they discontinue the item and say that it will never ship, THEN you are legally owed a refund.  But, when you paid for your item, they essentially told you it would take at least 2 months.  They never promised before a certain time frame.

Some people have been able to successfully get refunds, and that is totally at the companies discretion.  Its no different that buying a product with a warranty, and then that product breaking after that warranty has expired.  They company promised that under normal use, their product will last ATLEAST that long.  Anything beyond that, they do not have to fix/repair, but if they choose to do it then thats their own discretion.  Same also applies to returns and countless other policies in place everyday.

Dude...

You and BFL may want us all to believe this but until a customers order physically ships it appears according to the FTC that the company must issue a prompt refund when the customer asks for a refund for ANY reason.

Just because their ToS is against FTC regulations doesn't mean it's OK to break those regulations because you put it in your ToS LDO.

(Bolded in mine)

When You Must Cancel an Order

You must cancel an order and provide a prompt refund when:
•the customer exercises any option to cancel before you ship the merchandise;
•the customer does not respond to your first notice of a definite revised shipment date of 30 days or less and you have not shipped the merchandise or received the customer’s consent to a further delay by the definite revised shipment date;
•the customer does not respond to your notice of a definite revised shipment date of more than 30 days (or your notice that you are unable to provide a definite revised shipment date) and you have not shipped the merchandise within 30 days of the original shipment date;
•the customer consents to a definite delay and you have not shipped or obtained the customer’s consent to any additional delay by the shipment time the customer consented to;
•you have not shipped or provided the required delay or renewed option notices on time; or
•you determine that you will never be able to ship the merchandise.


http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

The way I read this BFL is clearly in violation of the FTC mail and telephone order merchandise rule (punishable by the FTC suing them for up to $16,000 per incident).


Your turn, please post some evidence of BFL's no refund policy being legitimate.

Reading comprehension is my friend... I'd be happy to introduce you if you'd like to meet up.

Item 1: any option to cancel: There is no option for canceling in the sales contract, it specifically states non refundable. An Option refers to a provision in the contract allowing... etc.
Item 2: concerns company initiated action - does not apply.
Item 3: concerns company initiated action - does not apply.
Item 4: nobody consented to any sort of 'definite delay' - bfl ship time has always been "later"
Item 5: doesn't apply since no definite deliver date ever established.
Item 6: concerns company initiated action (aka rolling up) - does not apply.

My advice to you would be - stop trying to invoke the ftc - you obviously don't understand enough about contract law to have any hope of interpreting their regulations.

[k9quaint]

Dude...

You and BFL may want us all to believe this but until a customers order physically ships it appears according to the FTC that the company must issue a prompt refund when the customer asks for a refund for ANY reason.

Just because their ToS is against FTC regulations doesn't mean it's OK to break those regulations because you put it in your ToS LDO.

(Bolded in mine)

When You Must Cancel an Order

You must cancel an order and provide a prompt refund when:
•the customer exercises any option to cancel before you ship the merchandise;
•the customer does not respond to your first notice of a definite revised shipment date of 30 days or less and you have not shipped the merchandise or received the customer’s consent to a further delay by the definite revised shipment date;
•the customer does not respond to your notice of a definite revised shipment date of more than 30 days (or your notice that you are unable to provide a definite revised shipment date) and you have not shipped the merchandise within 30 days of the original shipment date;
•the customer consents to a definite delay and you have not shipped or obtained the customer’s consent to any additional delay by the shipment time the customer consented to;
•you have not shipped or provided the required delay or renewed option notices on time; or
•you determine that you will never be able to ship the merchandise.


http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

The way I read this BFL is clearly in violation of the FTC mail and telephone order merchandise rule (punishable by the FTC suing them for up to $16,000 per incident).


Your turn, please post some evidence of BFL's no refund policy being legitimate.

Reading comprehension is my friend... I'd be happy to introduce you if you'd like to meet up.

Item 1: any option to cancel: There is no option for canceling in the sales contract, it specifically states non refundable. An Option refers to a provision in the contract allowing... etc.

Incorrect. The customer cannot waive the rules of the FTC for BFL, nor can BFL make them disappear by claiming they do not have to follow them (e.g. "no cancellations and/or no refunds"). Customers retain their right to a refund from BFL under the "Dry testing" advisory opinion issued by the FTC about the "Mail or Telephone Order Merchandise Trade Regulation Rule".

Item 2: concerns company initiated action - does not apply.

Except that company initiated action was required of BFL, which they failed to do.
If you can't ship within the promised time (or within 30 days if you made no promise), you must notify the customer of the delay, provide a revised shipment date and explain his right to cancel and get a full and prompt refund.
BFL missed their original promised date of October and has never issued a hard date since. "As soon as two more weeks" and "2 months or more" are not shipping dates.
By law, you must have a reasonable basis for stating that a product can be shipped within a certain time. If your advertising doesn't clearly and prominently state the shipment period, you must have a reasonable basis for believing that you can ship within 30 days.

Item 3: concerns company initiated action - does not apply.

Also incorrect. "definite revised shipment date" does not mean "later". It means a calendar day ("by July 18th") or a fixed time period ("within 3 days"). Since BFL never provided what they were required to provide, the customers were denied their opportunity to cancel their orders in response to it.

Item 4: nobody consented to any sort of 'definite delay' - bfl ship time has always been "later"

Since BFL did not provide their revised schedule, nobody had the opportunity to consent to it.
For definite delays of up to 30 days, you may treat the customer's silence as agreeing to the delay. But for longer or indefinite delays - and second and subsequent delays - you must get the customer's written, electronic or verbal consent to the delay. If the customer doesn't give you his okay, you must promptly refund all the money the customer paid you without being asked by the customer.
BFL are the kings of the indefinite delay.

Item 5: doesn't apply since no definite deliver date ever established.

That is a violation of FTC rules. By law, you must have a reasonable basis for stating that a product can be shipped within a certain time.
"Later" is the opposite of certain.

My advice to you would be - stop trying to invoke the ftc - you obviously don't understand enough about contract law to have any hope of interpreting their regulations.

Oh the irony. Instead of looking up the rules yourself or going to one of the dozens of sites that explain them to you, you just waltz in wing it. So far PayPal has been granting refunds to BFL customers who want them, but the FTC is there if PayPal ever cuts off the flow of refunds.

[Flying Hellfish]

All sales are final is in itself illegal. As long as they can't deliver the item on the day you want your refund they have to give you the refund. That is common business pratice and even law in some countries...

Any good lawyer or judge will tell you its all in the wording, and BFL uses it well. And I quote " Bitforce SC (ASIC) products are shipped according to placement in the order queue, and delivery may take 2 months or more after order. All sales are final."

The statement of "2 months or more" makes denying you a refund legal.  The only way it becomes illegal is if they never deliver the product....ever.  If they discontinue the item and say that it will never ship, THEN you are legally owed a refund.  But, when you paid for your item, they essentially told you it would take at least 2 months.  They never promised before a certain time frame.

Some people have been able to successfully get refunds, and that is totally at the companies discretion.  Its no different that buying a product with a warranty, and then that product breaking after that warranty has expired.  They company promised that under normal use, their product will last ATLEAST that long.  Anything beyond that, they do not have to fix/repair, but if they choose to do it then thats their own discretion.  Same also applies to returns and countless other policies in place everyday.

Dude...

You and BFL may want us all to believe this but until a customers order physically ships it appears according to the FTC that the company must issue a prompt refund when the customer asks for a refund for ANY reason.

Just because their ToS is against FTC regulations doesn't mean it's OK to break those regulations because you put it in your ToS LDO.

(Bolded in mine)

When You Must Cancel an Order

You must cancel an order and provide a prompt refund when:
•the customer exercises any option to cancel before you ship the merchandise;
•the customer does not respond to your first notice of a definite revised shipment date of 30 days or less and you have not shipped the merchandise or received the customer’s consent to a further delay by the definite revised shipment date;
•the customer does not respond to your notice of a definite revised shipment date of more than 30 days (or your notice that you are unable to provide a definite revised shipment date) and you have not shipped the merchandise within 30 days of the original shipment date;
•the customer consents to a definite delay and you have not shipped or obtained the customer’s consent to any additional delay by the shipment time the customer consented to;
•you have not shipped or provided the required delay or renewed option notices on time; or
•you determine that you will never be able to ship the merchandise.


http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

The way I read this BFL is clearly in violation of the FTC mail and telephone order merchandise rule (punishable by the FTC suing them for up to $16,000 per incident).


Your turn, please post some evidence of BFL's no refund policy being legitimate.

Reading comprehension is my friend... I'd be happy to introduce you if you'd like to meet up.

Item 1: any option to cancel: There is no option for canceling in the sales contract, it specifically states non refundable. An Option refers to a provision in the contract allowing... etc.
Item 2: concerns company initiated action - does not apply.
Item 3: concerns company initiated action - does not apply.
Item 4: nobody consented to any sort of 'definite delay' - bfl ship time has always been "later"
Item 5: doesn't apply since no definite deliver date ever established.
Item 6: concerns company initiated action (aka rolling up) - does not apply.

My advice to you would be - stop trying to invoke the ftc - you obviously don't understand enough about contract law to have any hope of interpreting their regulations.

As K9 politely pointed out you couldn't be more wrong.  Consumer protection laws are quite clear and quite old.

Lets ignore for one second all your points except #4 & 5.  By your own definition BFL has required customers to wait for an "indefinite" delay (of course if you read the rule you would know that you must provide a definitive delivery date and 2 months or more is not definitve therefore it would fall under the indefinite delay clause).  One of the things REQUIRED by the company if the are asking for and receive an indefinite delay is the following.

•a statement that, if the customer agrees to the indefinite delay, the customer may cancel the order any time until you ship.


According to the FTC BFL is breaking their requirements by not TELLING the customer they have the RIGHT cancel an order ANY time until you ship.

There is no room for ambiguity with their statement.  BFL MUST TELL the customer they have the right to cancel the order and when the order is cancelled they MUST refund.  BFL is not only telling their customer the exact opposite of what the FTC tells them they must say but they are also doing the opposite of what is required by not providing the refund.

Sir, my reading comprehension and understanding of consumer protection laws is OK, yours on the other hand??  IF this ends up with the FTC or the courts BFL doesn't have a leg to stand.  Your inability to understand this does not change to facts as they are.

[Xian01]

My advice to you would be - stop trying to invoke the ftc - you obviously don't understand enough about contract law to have any hope of interpreting their regulations.

 Is this your professional, legal opinion ? In fact, the Federal Trade Commission was set up for just such consumer protection cases.

 Taking things to the FTC is a reasonable step in lodging a formal complaint and establishing a problem pattern if you have a legitimate case.

 Every little bit helps establish a pattern.

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/index.shtml

[firefop]

As K9 politely pointed out you couldn't be more wrong.  Consumer protection laws are quite clear and quite old.

Lets ignore for one second all your points except #4 & 5.  By your own definition BFL has required customers to wait for an "indefinite" delay (of course if you read the rule you would know that you must provide a definitive delivery date and 2 months or more is not definitve therefore it would fall under the indefinite delay clause).  One of the things REQUIRED by the company if the are asking for and receive an indefinite delay is the following.

•a statement that, if the customer agrees to the indefinite delay, the customer may cancel the order any time until you ship.


According to the FTC BFL is breaking their requirements by not TELLING the customer they have the RIGHT cancel an order ANY time until you ship.

There is no room for ambiguity with their statement.  BFL MUST TELL the customer they have the right to cancel the order and when the order is cancelled they MUST refund.  BFL is not only telling their customer the exact opposite of what the FTC tells them they must say but they are also doing the opposite of what is required by not providing the refund.

Sir, my reading comprehension and understanding of consumer protection laws is OK, yours on the other hand??  IF this ends up with the FTC or the courts BFL doesn't have a leg to stand.  Your inability to understand this does not change to facts as they are.

I suppose with this level of incompetence I should probably take the extra time to figure out what rule you're imagining. From the context it sounds like you're talking about 'prompt delivery'. If so then I should point out that this only applies to physical goods existing at the time of sale, and is purely about the delivery of those goods. Even if we go ahead and ignore the nature of a non-developed hardware pre-order... and agree to say this rule applies:

There still wasn't any delay in delivery of the goods. There has been a period of time where the product was not developed. The initial timetable sale stated that it wasn't yet developed and had a very loose estimate (basically 'whenever it gets done')... there has been no delay when we're talking about the sales contract and deliver of the goods. The time table on shipping is still the same 'in order of paid date, starting once we have the hardware to ship'.

Since it was specified at the beginning, within 30 days is in applicable.

But that's just a fun mental exercise. It doesn't matter what you or I or anyone thinks about ftc regulations. Instead of playing games trying to use inapplicable rules... if you're serious about finding a violation you should be looking into forward contract law... because that's what the sales were.


 

[firefop]

My advice to you would be - stop trying to invoke the ftc - you obviously don't understand enough about contract law to have any hope of interpreting their regulations.

 Is this your professional, legal opinion ? In fact, the Federal Trade Commission was set up for just such consumer protection cases.

 Taking things to the FTC is a reasonable step in lodging a formal complaint and establishing a problem pattern if you have a legitimate case.

 Every little bit helps establish a pattern.

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/index.shtml

I completely agree that anyone is welcome to waste the FTCs time with this nonsense. I'm just getting a little sick of everyone and their dog playing lawyer and trying to apply random regulations to things that they don't actually apply to.

[Xian01]

I completely agree that anyone is welcome to waste the FTCs time with this nonsense.

 Your opinion.

I'm just getting a little sick of everyone and their dog playing lawyer and trying to apply random regulations to things that they don't actually apply to.

 I hope you can appreciate there are some that are sick of production problems over the last 300+ some-odd days that have created the current acrimonious environment.

[Trongersoll]

This is better than Judge Judy!