Bitcoin Forum

If BFL is not officially refusing to refund their customers, then they better get somebody in official capacity to state otherwise. And I don't mean user Inaba, albeit BFL_Josh would suffice.

It's to their best interest to make a public statement on this forum stating their current policy on refunds, or... (haven't figured that part out yet  ::)).

Phin, I haven't been following this too closely, but I've heard some users complain about it in other threads.

Are they refusing to refund ALL orders, or just the newer preorders? For instance: I have a pre-order from August. Will they not refund it if I asked? (not that I want to)

To be fair it does state on their site that it's 2 months or more for the order to ship.  All sales are final.  Products are shipping.

It's my understanding that if a person's specific unit isn't about to be shipped, then they're entitled to a refund via simply asking for one. If one is not given, then the supplier is breaking the law, a great song by Judas Priest, BTW.

Remember to read anything before agreeing to it. Very shady though, I would be wary about giving them any money.

I'm thinking someone needs to go back to the time - March or April (?) - when BFL announced that they needed all to reconfirm their orders, and if they failed to do so their orders would be canceled.  At that time, the "no refunds" was first stated; it has recently been re-stated in the cloth of "production management."

The language and representations made in those announcements are important in this. 

Getting a customer to agree to something that is against federal regulations will not relieve BFL of complying with those regulations LDO.

When a company offers a product for sale that is not in stock they must provide a definitive shipping date, I doubt many people think 2 months OR more is definitive.

When the first delivery date is missed a new revised definitive delivery date must be given along with a reason for the delay.  They must also obtain the customers approval for the first delay and EACH delay after (which they must also supply a definitive date and reason for).  If they do not provide this info or obtain the customers consent they actually must refund the customer.

The company must also cancel an order and issue a refund if the customer exercises any option to cancel the order BEFORE the product ships.

In order for a sale to take place a person must pay for and receive a product (or service), until the customer receives his product (or it ships) a sale has not taken place and hence why it is called an order and not a sale yet, hence all sales are final in this situation is not applicable.   Typically All Sales are Final refers to once a customer receives the product that they are then not able to return the product for a refund (after the sale has taken place).

This is all my interpretation of what I have researched IANAL.

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

For those who need glasses, he wrote...

Getting a customer to agree to something that is against federal regulations will not relieve BFL of complying with those regulations LDO.

When a company offers a product for sale that is not in stock they must provide a definitive shipping date, I doubt many people think 2 months OR more is definitive.

When the first delivery date is missed a new revised definitive delivery date must be given along with a reason for the delay.  They must also obtain the customers approval for the first delay and EACH delay after (which they must also supply a definitive date and reason for).  If they do not provide this info or obtain the customers consent they actually must refund the customer.

The company must also cancel an order and issue a refund if the customer exercises any option to cancel the order BEFORE the product ships.

In order for a sale to take place a person must pay for and receive a product (or service), until the customer receives his product (or it ships) a sale has not taken place and hence why it is called an order and not a sale yet, hence all sales are final in this situation is not applicable.   Typically All Sales are Final refers to once a customer receives the product that they are then not able to return the product for a refund (after the sale has taken place).

This is all my interpretation of what I have researched IANAL.

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

FWIW, that's the new +1 since those are now being deleted on this forum.

If there is so much heartburn about this you should just lawyer up and prove your point. By now I think its very clear to everyone that you should not expect product for months and months and months when you buy from BFL. They even say so on their web site.

I am not entirely sure if this is directed at me or not but, I don't need to lawyer up, I don't live in the same country BFL operates in and BFL doesn't and never will have any of my money.  I suspect there are some people at least talking to their lawyers and the FTC.

As far as everyone know how long it will take to ship, hogwash the BTC community is growing by the day and too many Noobs get suckered in, so a few of us try our best to keep the information out there. 

There are also people who don't understand their rights (even if they know ALL about BFL and have orders with them), so I am sharing with them stuff I have found that I feel is relevant and encouraging any customers that are asking for refunds and being denied them to do a little research and read the link I provided, if you wish to continue down the path with an FTC complaint or lawyer up they are free to do so.

Why exactly do you want us to stop discussing it?  Feel free to put me on ignore and ignore these types of threads and your problem is solved and we can carry on like adults.

What do noobs get suckered into exactly? People should be encouraged to read the terms of the agreement they enter into before they hand over their money. In all cases caveat emptor. And if consumers do feel they have been wronged they should be encouraged to take action.  And to be clear I did not ask anyone to stop discussing anything. Those are your words.

To me your post smacks of sour grapes.

Who cares? Someone dumb enough to not read TOS, order in the last 2 months and now want a refund should have their damn head examined and deserves to loose money.

Here's a thread that nobody at BFL cared to address about a once loyal customer of theirs wanting a refund going on a week now: https://forums.butterflylabs.com/bfl-forum-miscellaneous/3587-ask-refund-my-4-orders-now-we-will-see-bfls-true-colors.html

Madness!/Bastards! (pick one)

Read the posts about that guy. He apparently is a big troll over there.

Please don't report BFL to the FTC, such distractions might push out my shipping date even further out.  ;D ;D ;D

I think, the timing is the problem as there is two month delay even the 35 jala are shipped out.

I used to order 10G on April. In May, there is nothing to update. I use PAYPAL to fire up. Then the BFL has refunded the money I deposited as I don't think the being will be on my hands.

I am sorry, sir, but there is a bit of a language problem here.  Are you saying:

Your made an order in April;
It did not ship in May;
You had originally ordered with Paypal, and requested refund from them;
BFL then refunded your order themselves.

If that is not it, then please try again.  Thanks.

Believe it or not (probably not), you uncovered Jody's sock puppet. Note the chicken scratching.  ;D

You can try to request a refund through their site at https://products.butterflylabs.com/sales/guest/form/ (https://products.butterflylabs.com/sales/guest/form/) if it helps.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=114329.msg1233371#msg1233371
   

ROFLMAO!!!!!   Well, we all know how his second choice ended!!!  The bASIC fail, where Buzzdave claimed (lied) he saw Tom's working real ASIC btw.

∞ + x = ∞

Lol, is that infinity, or Butterfly? ;D

Lol it was meant to be "infinity", I didn't realise their thread resembled an infinity symbol.
Quite ironic, isn't it.

RE: "That said, I don't believe they are a scam, I believe they will eventually ship their asics, just not to everyone, and a lot of people will be left behind and probably never recover their investment."

But that's the definition of a scam.  It isn't just: "take a bunch of money and disappear with it all."  Lots of cons and frauds run with some getting return - maybe big return.  That's how they stay in business. 

It's called partial reinforcement scheduling.  If you want to keep 50 sheep at the fence, feed two some grain, then stay in sight of all of them, and they'll all stay, hoping they get theirs.

http://minyan.byethost7.com/wings9.png

Dude, their actual logo is an infinity sign, that's what's hilarious!!

I'm surprised no one has picked up on this before!!

Actually, it's a Mobius strip, isn't it?  I have heard that (maybe a myth) the infinity symbol derives from the Mobius strip.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity_symbol

Thank you.  From that article:

In the works of Vladimir Nabokov, including The Gift and Pale Fire, the figure-eight shape is used symbolically to refer to the Möbius strip and the infinite, for instance in these books' descriptions of the shapes of bicycle tire tracks and of the outlines of half-remembered people.

But the first usage of the symbol is much earlier than Mobius. 

Just to drive one of Phinn's points deeper into everybody's head:

"Sales are final" does not apply unless there was an actual sale taking place. If you have not received your unit, there was no sale - only a (pre)order.

Maybe because not everyone fails the basic math knowledge to see the difference between the infinity symbol, and a Lorenz Attractor' styled butterfly?
By the lack of you giving an answer btw, as the KNC expert, to the question how many units KNC will withhold, I understand that you still don't know how many units, or better THash, KNC will take from their production run to mine bitcoins for themselves?

Actually it's https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenz_attractor


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e0/Lorenz.png/170px-Lorenz.png

Of which BFL is on record in stating that that's not where their logo was derived.

Somebody may need to redo this chart reflecting as it applies to BFL.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/16/Operant_conditioning_diagram.png/658px-Operant_conditioning_diagram.png

Might be a fine job for you, you don't seem to have anything imported at hand lately to do with your life besides hanging around here in the BFL topics?

Except jacking off to MFC girls, barn wood, and writing a book (non-fiction not necessarily Bitcoin related).

And making pies.

And spending a hour each morning with autistic adults. Ironically (factually), I pitch a Nerf-like baseball to a guy name Joss. Another guy, named Larry (an Afro-American), just started coming around to speaking again since being dramatized at a younger age thanks, in part, to my efforts. I also taught him to shake hands.

As a whole, and to be fair, SLok, your assessment is somewhat accurate.

Now what, playing the sentimental game? Want a tap on the back, good boy? wtf Larry the "afro-american"? Is that some special qualification?

How are those BFL sample chips tasting? How many TMWs has it been?

In other news, everyone who has an order with BFL can get a refund until they receive their unit. Contact BFL, if they don't comply, contact PayPal. If you didn't order via PayPal fill out a complaint with the FTC and then forward that to BFL as well. You will get your refund if BFL hasn't yet shipped your products to you.

 Are we to assume with this particular phraseology, that you have some concrete insider information about America's favorite Bitcoin ASIC company ? More specifically, the implication that they are definitively using their production to mine bitcoins for themselves as you are accusing KNC of doing ?

 Do tell.

bASIC fail or not, at least I and other bASIC customers got a refund for our bASIC orders that never got delivered in January 2013 which allowed us to participate in Avalon Batch #2

There is a lot to be said about the bASIC messup (heck, I would have ended up with 30 Avalon Batch #1 units if I did not got lured into bASIC) but at least Tom (and Buzzdave) kept their word and refunded all their customers.

I wonder if BFL customers feel so lucky at this point? Oh for fun, let's have a look at bitcoindifficulty.com, Next difficulty (estimate): 26,844,091

Sweet...

What you are describing is a Ponzi.
A scam is, most often, where everyone gets fucked.

BFL is certainly a Ponzi, and i suspect before too long they will pack up shop and move to Costa Rica, or the FTC will kick down the door and seize everything.

Either way, i feel like i got bent over the table.

If you have ordered from BFL and have not yet received your product, you are entitled to a refund whenever you request one (per FTC rules).
First ask BFL for one, they will probably say no but you might get lucky.
If you ordered via PayPal you can file a complaint with them even if you are outside the 45 day window. One customer has already gotten a refund from PayPal that was outside the 45 days.
If you ordered via BTC or Bank wire, you can fill out a complaint with the FTC and they will advocate for you with BFL to get your refund.

I was only pointing out that Larry is an Afro-American. At the age of five he was severely beaten by his step-dad of which never served a single day behind bars for his actions.

In response to the rest of your post, the intent of my post was NOT to seek any sentimental recognition.

So, no, it's not some special qualification.

Care to play again?

Dramatized?  TV play, movie, or stage show?

I think you meant traumatized.   :P

Josh was right! I'm losing it.

<In the voice of Josh>

The second time Bruno "The Drama Queen" has spoken a truism.

I placed my order with BFL over a year ago, at this point it just makes me laugh when I think about it, I guess I expect that some day it will show up but we are going on 13 months now...  we are past the point of ridiculous.

In my opinion, if you place an order with BFL now, your hardware will be useless by the time you get it (due to extremely high difficulty). There really is no point.

PayPal turned me down within minutes. The reason stated was "This dispute closed because it was opened for more than 45 days after the transaction date or did not meet other filing criteria."

You spent 1/50th of your life waiting for that BFL hardware. How does it feel compared to your Avalon purchase time?

In light of your experience, your mileage may vary. It is important to try PayPal first because that is the easiest route to getting your money back.

Your next step would be to fill out the form at the FTC noting that you ordered a product X number of days ago and that BFL has still not shipped it to you. When you asked for a refund, BFL refused.

Maybe. I contacted PayPal by phone and received the same response, even though I am also a long-time account holder.  PayPal did promise to contact BFL and ask them to ship my order--for whatever that's worth.

My next step has been to contact PayPal's fraud department to point out the blatant and ongoing violation of their terms of service for pre-order sales.  I believe this is BFL's Achilles heel.  BFL needs PayPal.

Of course, my complaints would certainly carry more weight if other BFL victims would follow suit.

How many individual FTC claims does it take before they open an internal investigation?

Would you (or anyone else who knows of this) please elaborate on the highlighted statement?  

The PayPal rep I spoke with agreed with my assessment that BFL is violating the TOS.

It seems to me that PayPal is breaking their ToS by allowing BFL to continue to use their services. I'm sure PayPal would not like to open themselves up to a lawsuit when one of BFL's miners catches fire and kills a baby.

they can just ship you a box of fans real quick and then put you in warranty hell

True, and that will make for a great "unboxing" video.  I don't expect to ever receive a product from BFL, but I'm not laying down for them.

Everyone seems focused on lighting a fire under BFL.  I say, light the fire under PayPal and maybe they can help BFL find their checkbook.

I am with you, what did the fraud department say they would do next?

PayPal isn't ignorant about BFL non-compliance with ToS.  They've been aware of the issue for months.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/137-first-most-boring-update.html#comment1600

Unclear if this was a one-time verification they requested, or if this is something they continue to "manage".

It looks like we need to keep the pressure on PayPal, as that seems to be the only thing getting BFL to actually ship units.

FYI: fraud@paypal.com

A Special Thanks To Ryan Downs For The Following Upper Management
Phone Numbers.
1-408-967-5033 (TOLL NUMBER) Michael Oldenburg, HE WANTS TO HEAR YOURCOMPLAINTS!
1-408-376-7514 (TOLL FAX Number) Ryan Downs, Senior Vice PresidentOperations, PayPal, Inc. and eBay Inc.
1-402-935-2050 (Toll Number)
1-888-215-5506 (Toll Free Number)
1-888-221-1161 (Toll Free Number)
1-408-376-7400 (Toll Number)
1-408-376-7514 (Toll Fax Number) PayPal, San Jose, General Fax #1-650-864-8000 (Toll Number)
1-402-935-2284 (Toll Number -- Banking and Check Issues)
1-402-935-2212 (Toll Number -- ACH Processing & Check Services)
1-402-935-2255 (Toll Number -- Account Review Department)
1-402-935-2257 (Toll Number -- Account Review Department)
1-402-935-2223 (Toll Number -- PayPal Compliance)
1-402-935-2250 (Toll Number -- PayPal Compliance)
1-402-935-2000 (Toll Number -- Customer Service Department)
1-402-935-2007 (Toll Number -- Customer Service Department)
1-402-935-5181 (Toll Number -- Debit Card Services)
1-402-935-2116 (Toll Number -- Escalations Department)
1-402-935-2129 (Toll Number -- Escalations Department)
1-402-935-2238 (Toll Number -- Management, Escalations Department)
1-402-935-2239 (Toll Number -- Fraud Prevention Department)
1-402-935-2251 (Toll Number -- Manager, Resolutions Department)
1-650-251-1101 (Toll FAX Number -- Never Fax w/o a Case Number!)
1-408-376-7514 (Toll FAX Number -- Never Fax w/o a Case Number!)
1-408-967-1005 (Toll Number -- Amanda Pires, PayPal Media Relations)
1-402-537-5755 (Toll FAX Number -- PayPal Chargeback Department)
1-402-938-2337 (Toll FAX Number -- Compliance Department)
1-303-395-2802 (Toll FAX Number -- Compliance Department)
1-402-952-8691 (Thomas, PayPal Executive Dying to Receive Your Call)
1-402-935-2238 (Tiffany Zaporowski, Strategic Risk Operations)
1-402-935-2116 (Elizabeth Morey, Supervisor, Executive Escalations)
1-402-952-8691 (Thomas, Senior Agent, Dying to Receive Your Call)
1-402-935-2172 (Adam Braasch, Senior Agent)
1-402-952-8902 (Gabriel, Agent, Executive Escalations)
1-402-935-2268 (Beth Beutler, Senior Agent)
1-402-935-5146 (Leslie Byrne, Senior Agent)
1-402-935-2399 (Janyce Erikson, Senior Agent)
1-402-935-5145 (Melody Fry, Senior Agent)
1-402-935-2174 (Jackie Hart, Senior Agent)
1-402-935-2229 (Michael Lazure, Senior Agent) *ACH/Wire Expert*
1-402-935-5163 (Rick Martin, Senior Agent)
1-402-935-5073 (Stephanie Mikovec, Senior Agent)
1-402-935-2157 (Megan Moore, Senior Agent) *WORKS WEEKENDS*
1-402-935-3533 (Peggy Pattavina, Senior Agent)
1-402-935-2331 (Tara Stevens, Senior Agent)
1-402-938-3532 (Megan Wetzel, Senior Agent)   
(402)935-2114   Kay P. ACH / Check Services       
(402)935-2212   ACH Processing Main Line ACH / Check Services       
(402)935-2284   cindy ACH / Check Services     Processing / Bank Only    
(402)935-2295   Chuck ACH / Check Services     Processing Manager    
(402)935-2255   Jasmine Account Review       
(402)935-2256   Jamie Account Review       
(402)935-2257   Jamie Account Review       
(402)935-2328   Chris Account Review       
(402)935-2333   Luke Account Review       
(402)935-2114   Kay P. ACH / Check Services       
(402)935-2212   ACH Processing Main Line ACH / Check Services       
(402)935-2284   cindy ACH / Check Services     Processing / Bank Only    
(402)935-2295   Chuck ACH / Check Services     Processing Manager    
(402)935-2223   Sheryl AUP Compliance       
(402)935-2250   Katrina AUP Compliance       
(402)935-2275   Lisa AUP Compliance       
(402)935-2332   Julie Gonzales AUP Compliance       
(402)935-5140   Alahandre Elise(?) AUP Compliance       
(402)935-2029   Todd Business Development       
(402)935-5126   Shane Business Development     Schedule: 8:30~5PM M-F    
(402)935-5197   Ken Holston Business Development     Business Management & Account Management    
(402)935-2000   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2007   Call Center Inbound Line Call Center       
(402)935-2012   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2011   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2014   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2017   Call Center Inbound: Debit Cards Call Center       
(402)935-2019   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2021   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2022   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2023   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2024   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2025   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2030   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2050   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2053   Call Center Inbound: Premier Services Call Center       
(402)935-2057   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2065   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2079   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2080   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2081   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2082   Premier Service Line Call Center       
(402)935-2084   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2085   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2092   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2100   Call Center Inbound Call Center     Premier Services Line    
(402)935-2106   Call Center Inbound Call Center     Premier Services Line    
(402)935-2107   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2124   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2148   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2166   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2194   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2233   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2300   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2323   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-5119   Call Center Inbound Call Center       
(402)935-2165   Jessica Card Services       
(402)935-2396   Tamara Spurlock Card Services       
(402)935-5181   Lisa Weaver Card Services     Debit Card Team    
(402)935-2015   Teresa Rains Charge Backs       
(402)935-2141   Mikalea Charge Backs       
(402)935-2152   Anna Charge Backs       
(402)935-2189   Margaret Charge Backs       
(402)935-2340   Debbie Charge Backs       
(402)935-2063   Taj Education Team     Product Education    
(402)935-2064   Dona Education Team       
(402)935-2116   Elizabeth Executive Escalations     Works closely w/Tiffany(detp.mgr). Very Responsive.    
(402)935-2129   Joe Executive Escalations       
(402)935-2156   Brian Executive Escalations       
(402)935-2157   Megan Executive Escalations       
(402)935-2172   Adam Executive Escalations       
(402)935-2173   John Executive Escalations       
(402)935-2174   Jackie Executive Escalations       
(402)935-2192   Eric Executive Escalations       
(402)935-2128   Stacy Executive Escalations       
(402)935-2228   Stacy Executive Escalations       
(402)935-2238   Tiffany Executive Escalations     Manager of Executive Escalations.    
(402)935-2268   Beth Executive Escalations       
(402)935-2269   Michelle Executive Escalations     Schedule: Tues~Thur 9:30AM~8PM    
(402)935-2334   Luke Executive Escalations       
(402)935-5145   Melanie Executive Escalations     Schedule: M-F 4PM~Mid. CST    
(402)935-5146   Leslie Executive Escalations       
(402)935-5163   Rick Martin Executive Escalations       
(402)935-2112   Gloria Finance       
(402)935-2207   Jeremy Finance       
(402)935-2371   Julie Finance       
(402)935-2239   Collin Fraud & Security     Fraud Prevention    
(402)935-2267   Mark Fraud & Security     Trust & Safety    
(402)935-2272   Michael Fraud & Security     Protection Services    
(402)935-2366   Suzanne Combes Brown Fraud & Security     Risk Management Manager    
(402)935-2368   Sheryl London Fraud & Security     Protection Services: Senior Agent    
(402)935-5134   Bill Gray Fraud & Security     Internal Audit. Mountain View Office: 650-864-8046    
(402)935-2044   Paula Adams Global Services     Global Help Desk    
(402)935-2127   Amy Bush Global Services       
(402)935-2048   Joyce Brown Human Resources     Training Department    
(402)935-2051   Melanie Human Resources     Training Department    
(402)935-2128   Michelle Human Resources     HR/Benefits Coordinator    
(402)935-2169   Sterling Blackwell Human Resources     Employee Development    
(402)935-2283   Amy Human Resources     Staffing    
(402)935-2318   John Latke Human Resources     Training Department    
(402)935-2339   Michelle Mullis Human Resources       
(402)935-5128   Michelle Human Resources     Benefits Coordinator    
(402)935-2001   IVR Testing Line Internal / IT     Tests voice recognition, play around.    
(402)935-2004   IVR Testing Line Internal / IT     Tests voice recognition, etc.. play around    
(402)935-2026   Password Prompt (?) Internal / IT     Line immediately prompts for password. Unsure of it's use.    
(402)935-2032   Employee Attendance Line Internal / IT     (try user: 1234 pass:1234, works to play around with)    
(402)935-2069   ECS System Testing Internal / IT     Play around, not sure of purpose.    
(402)935-2299   Internal Software Helpdesk Internal / IT       
(402)935-5100   Employee Attendance Line Internal / IT     (user: 1234 / pass: 1234 to play around)    
(402)935-5151   Hold Music / Advertisement Internal / IT     Test Line for Hold Music ?    
(402)935-5149   Monitoring Line? Internal / IT       
(402)935-5168   Monitoring Line Internal / IT       
(402)935-5184   Gene (or Steve) Internal / IT     Technical Support Manager    
(402)935-5199   Call Center Status Line Internal / IT     This ext. will place the call center in Emergency or Normal state.   
(402)935-2274   Matthew Member Services     Member Services Supervisor    
(402)935-2321   Michelle Member Services     Supervisor (Sat/Sun/Mon 11A~Mid)    
(402)935-2357   Terry Dale Member Services       
(402)935-5161   Tim Loban Merchant Fraud & Risk     Weekend Supervisor (Sat/Sun/Mon 11AM~Mid)    
(402)935-5169   Alicia Merchant Fraud & Risk       
(402)935-2074   Tammy Galvin Quality Development       
(402)935-2226   Jenny Quality Development       
(402)935-2034   Janie Bartlett Resolution Services       
(402)935-2132   Bryant Resolution Services     Team Leader    
(402)935-2241   Lynn Vogue Resolution Services       
(402)935-2251   Mike McCormick Resolution Services     Resolution Services Supervisor    
(402)935-2266   Rich H. Resolution Services       
(402)935-2353   Lorie Kilstrom Resolution Services       
(402)935-5120   Tim Underlow Resolution Services     Product Education Trainer for Resolution Services    
(402)935-5141   Resolutions Department Line Resolution Services       
(402)935-2218   Douglas H. Security       
(402)935-5172   Michell Security       
(402)935-2002   April Garner Unknown       
(402)935-2005   Adonocca Banks Unknown       
(402)935-2010   Nick Unknown       
(402)935-2013   Pat Unknown       
(402)935-2018   Vicki Hernandez Unknown       
(402)935-2020   Mary Jo Unknown       
(402)935-2028   Megan Unknown       
(402)935-2039   Jeff Hagan Unknown       
(402)935-2040   Mary Steeley Unknown       
(402)935-2041   Michelle Parkins Unknown       
(402)935-2049   Jason Finer Unknown       
(402)935-2052   Eduardo(?) Unknown       
(402)935-2054   Tonya Unknown       
(402)935-2055   John Freeze Unknown       
(402)935-2061   Rick Unknown       
(402)935-2062   Nick Unknown       
(402)935-2066   Michelle Unknown       
(402)935-2073   Kelly Shipley Unknown       
(402)935-2086   Jeff Allen Unknown       
(402)935-2087   Patience Unknown       
(402)935-2091   Dawn Mouski Unknown       
(402)935-2095   Steve Unknown       
(402)935-2098   Dona Shong Unknown       
(402)935-2099   Shelly Unknown       
(402)935-2101   John Unknown       
(402)935-2103   Latrisha Harris Unknown       
(402)935-2104   Lisa Hughes Unknown       
(402)935-2110   Amy Lescott Unknown       
(402)935-2113   Kelly Unknown       
(402)935-2115   Maggie Mentato Unknown       
(402)935-2118   Paul Ingles Unknown       
(402)935-2119   Stacy Price Unknown       
(402)935-2123   Kelly Unknown       
(402)935-2125   Koreen Unknown       
(402)935-2126   Michelle Unknown       
(402)935-2134   Cindy Langstrom Unknown       
(402)935-2136   Lynette Lane Unknown       
(402)935-2138   Kim Unknown       
(402)935-2142   Kimberly Unknown       
(402)935-2149   Mark Rosenthal Unknown       
(402)935-2150   Eddie Unknown       
(402)935-2154   Charles Unknown       
(402)935-2158   Bill Unknown       
(402)935-2168   Peggy Unknown       
(402)935-2170   Deb Myer Unknown     Schedule: M-F 8AM~4:30PM    
(402)935-2171   Trish Unknown       
(402)935-2175   Zack Unknown       
(402)935-2178   Lashaun Unknown       
(402)935-2179   Beth Unknown       
(402)935-2181   Valerie Dasante Unknown       
(402)935-2182   Erin Crain Unknown       
(402)935-2183   Frank Unknown       
(402)935-2184   Kevin Armstrong Unknown       
(402)935-2186   Emily Heldridge Unknown       
(402)935-2187   Erin Unknown       
(402)935-2188   Lamay Unknown       
(402)935-2201   Ray Unknown       
(402)935-2203   Sherry Unknown       
(402)935-2204   Lisa Thompson Unknown       
(402)935-2205   Kimberly Unknown       
(402)935-2206   Osma Unknown       
(402)935-2216   Tracy Unknown       
(402)935-2217   Shaun Unknown       
(402)935-2224   Meliss Unknown       
(402)935-2225   Jim Unknown       
(402)935-2227   Eric Harrison Unknown       
(402)935-2129   Name not known Unknown       
(402)935-2229   unknown Unknown       
(402)935-2230   Mark Peterson Unknown       
(402)935-2234   Dave Unknown       
(402)935-2236   Brock Unknown       
(402)935-2237   Shaun Unknown       
(402)935-2240   Angie Anderson Unknown       
(402)935-2244   Julie Gonzales Unknown       
(402)935-2246   Sally Unknown       
(402)935-2253   Deb Unknown       
(402)935-2254   Ellie Unknown     Number changed to 935-1835, per voicemail.    
(402)935-2259   Tereasa Unknown       
(402)935-2264   Eric Unknown       
(402)935-2265   Doug H. Unknown       
(402)935-2271   Cynthia Unknown       
(402)935-2273   Leslie Walker Unknown       
(402)935-2276   Heather Johnson Unknown       
(402)935-2281   Jason Alexander Unknown       
(402)935-2288   David Unknown       
(402)935-2291   John Unknown       
(402)935-2298   Chris Unknown       
(402)935-2302   Jim Norway Unknown     Call was forwarded to a Nextel Phone Afterhours (management?)    
(402)935-2305   Amanda Unknown       
(402)935-2308   Cathy Unknown       
(402)935-2316   Laurie Unknown       
(402)935-2317   Jason Unknown       
(402)935-2322   Jamie Swanson Unknown       
(402)935-2324   Jessica Carasoul Unknown       
(402)935-2335   Steve Unknown       
(402)935-2336   Marissa Unknown       
(402)935-2341   Laurie Unknown       
(402)935-2342   Torrence Unknown       
(402)935-2349   Karen Unknown       
(402)935-2350   Beverly Unknown       
(402)935-2351   Karen Lovette Unknown       
(402)935-2358   John Kimmee Unknown       
(402)935-2363   Claire Shumiker Unknown       
(402)935-2364   Mary Viella Unknown       
(402)935-2365   Frank Unknown       
(402)935-2367   Mary OBrien Unknown       
(402)935-2369   Kelly Carson Unknown       
(402)935-2370   unknown Unknown     person answered, unsure, will recheck later.    
(402)935-2372   Bob Miles Unknown       
(402)935-2375   Renee Unknown     Schedule: Tues~Fri 1:30PM~Mid.    
(402)935-2376   Foreign Speaking Employee Unknown     Foreign Employee.. anyone identify language ?    
(402)935-2377   David B. Unknown       
(402)935-2381   Tina Unknown       
(402)935-2386   Cameron Unknown       
(402)935-2387   Cindy Unknown       
(402)935-2391   Alisha Rhea Unknown       
(402)935-2392   Cindy Kathork Unknown       
(402)935-2393   Andres Unknown       
(402)935-2394   Robin Unknown       
(402)935-2395   Jim Unknown       
(402)935-2397   Mark Davis Unknown       
(402)935-2399   Janice Erickson Unknown     Schedule: M-F 6AM~2:30PM    
(402)935-5103   Nicole Unknown       
(402)935-5105   Natalie Unknown       
(402)935-5106   Angie Unknown       
(402)935-5108   Gene Unknown       
(402)935-5111   Doug Maxum Unknown       
(402)935-5113   Becky Unknown       
(402)935-5115   Carrie Unknown       
(402)935-5116   Paula Baldwin Unknown       
(402)935-5117   Dave Burchill Unknown       
(402)935-5121   Andy J. Unknown       
(402)935-5123   Micheal Jones Unknown       
(402)935-5129   Marlow Rumington Unknown       
(402)935-5133   Jeanette Unknown       
(402)935-5136   Quincy Unknown       
(402)935-5138   Terrell Anderson Unknown       
(402)935-5144   Lisa L. Unknown       
(402)935-5147   Evan McCaul Unknown       
(402)935-5152   Jessica Palamino Unknown       
(402)935-5156   Steve Unknown       
(402)935-5164   Tonya Lynn Unknown       
(402)935-5165   Devon Unknown       
(402)935-5171   Carrol Unknown       
(402)935-5175   Cindy Unknown       
(402)935-5148   Jeff Lonka Unknown     Admin maybe (msg says if urgent, call: 402-490-9749)    
(402)935-5176   Sheila Unknown       
(402)935-5178   Unknown Employee Unknown       
(402)935-5179   Tim Maxwell Unknown       
(402)935-5185   Rich Unknown       
(402)935-5186   Jerry Lowe (female) Unknown       
(402)935-5187   Brian G. Unknown     Voicemail says w/Ebay    
(402)935-5189   Brian Unknown       
(402)935-5192   Christian Reese Unknown       
(402)935-5194   Reese Unknown       
(402)935-5195   Angie Unknown       
(402)935-5196   Scott Unknown

Source Link: http://www.paypalsucks.com/PayPalPhoneNumbers.shtml

Made a couple of phone calls this morning.  I was informed about this website and told that they would likely be very interested in hearing about BF Labs story.

Don't be shy fellows, they accept third party submissions.  Let the IC3 determine if no refunds is legal or not...


http://www.ic3.gov/default.aspx

Let's try and keep this thread on the first page for great justice

I see this thread has been moved into a dark corner of the basement. Why?  ???

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=73.0

I just got my refund from my order for 2x50gh units (Ordered mid-June).   BFL refused,  I contacted American Express and they were able to refund my account.  My BFL order status now says that each unit has been refunded.

Started with strategies to get BFL or PayPal to issue refunds, but migrated to dinging them with the FTC, to calling the FBI, to posting PayPal contacts and phones.

At the end of the day, if you want a refund, your options seem to be:
-Begging BFL for a refund and/or alerting the FTC is the recourse for those that paid with BTC
-Call PayPal if within 45 days of purchase to trigger a refund.
-Call your Credit Card company if after 45 days from the pay date if used PayPal.

The deal about BFL not shipping within PayPal's shipping terms for vendors, well that's a clause between PayPal and the vendor.  Non-compliance won't entitle the buyer to a refund beyond 45 days of purchase, just gives PayPal a reason to drop BFL from using their platform in future.  Breach of a business contract is a civil matter between PayPal and BFL.

I understand folks are uber-upset at the prospect of receiving their unit when difficulty is incredibly high, but naturally, there were no representations from BFL with respect to this.

As things are, my two orders will arrive way too late.

Because BFL buys a lot of bitcointalk publicity slots?

As I see it, a BFL investor is able to get a refund (for now), but they have to jump through a myriad of hoops and heartaches to get it. At the end of the day, BFL is still out the same amount of money as if they were to kindly give the same exact refund when it was first asked for.

Ask yourself this: Are you more apt to spread cheers of a company that quickly gave a refund or one that told you "Sorry, Charlie, no refunds!" I assume the former, for the latter is a piece of shit type of company.

Bottom line, BFL will be out the same exact amount of money when people get their refunds the hard way at the expense of dragging the good name of Chris Vlesides (the KC photograpy, Sonny's step dad) to the ground, taking every single person currently working for BFL with him.

This Sonny Vleisides is one fucked up dude.

Butterfly Labs has not played nice from the get-go, and still to this day continues to stick it up their client's asses, eventually closing down shop and heading south.

BF Labs Ins. is nothing but a crock and should be avoided at all cost. This is not an opinion! This is fact that I am stating. Josh Zerlan has my full name and address on file so that BFL's lawyers can contact me if they too are not pussies.

Let's see what kind of pussies BFL truly is: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=255830.0

quote:

Criminal Lawsuit against BFL in Germany [in progress]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=256944.msg2737302#msg2737302

"Official documents of the german prosecutor will be released here soon.

Be patient."

"34 german customers gave me their identity and order IDs so far. None of them did receive any unit from BFL."

"I cant release all details yet. BFL got a german version of their website and through  that their german sales apply to german laws. They get busted in germany if they have the ass to fly over to the court."

Is she in Germany?

http://daniels.du.edu/faculty-staff/carol-johnson/

thats its a scam !
Call her and ask !

Only a identie thief ....

grüsse aus Deutschland

Has this been confirmed? If so, should the account be allowed to remain given it isn't who it claims to be?

Dear Big Fuckin' Liars

Thanking for informing me that you will no longer be providing PSUs with any of your Bitcoin miners and asking me if I would mine.

The answer is yes, I will mine, but it won't be with a BFL product. I look forward to my refund of which now I'm formally requesting.

Sincerely,

A Monumental Asshole

ama/ama

Good luck!  I was able to get my refund for an order for two 50GHs units purchased in April and two 10 GHs upgrades purchased in June.   Going to BFL for the refund was denied.   Going though Paypal for the April unit was closed since it was too old but the upgrades did get refunded by opening a case with Paypal.   

I called my credit card company (AMEX) to dispute the 2 units.  They opened the dispute with Paypal and then Paypal provided the refund.

Hope things work out for you!

Even through the hell this guy had to obtain a simple little refund, he still had the compassion to wish BFL good tidings. That's a class act in my book.

To follow his lead I, too, hope things work out for you as you bleed through your funds in the form of refunds.

Remember folks, nobody moves up in queue position when the last one in is the one no longer awaiting BFL's Magically -ROI Black Box.

I got $5000 refunded: Someone has posted a new method that get's a refund from paypal within just a few hours with one email https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=295187 - I got my $5,000 back the same day I mailed. BFL are known at very high level at Paypal now so this is a slam dunk refund.

Butterfly Labs Customer? Please review your buying Experience with this company.Thank you

http://www.bitcoinsniper.com/asic-miners/butterfly-labs/

http://www.woodlaw.com/cases/butterfly-labs-and-bf-labs-inc-bitcoin-miners

Still refusing?

Join the class action.

The end...

Bitcoin startup Butterfly Labs settles with FTC for $38.6M, but it can’t pay


http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/02/bitcoin-startup-butterfly-labs-settles-with-ftc-for-38-6m-but-it-cant-pay/