Bitcoin Forum

They are 2 many scams and vendors breaking their promises on pre orders, so don't, don't and DON'T BUY Pre Orders.

yup, i agree, no more pre-orders

Heh, however only those who preordered made a profit :)

You can go ahead and gamble with your bitcoins. It's probably the same chance to "make a profit" but certainly more fun than waiting for company X to deliver on their promises.

+1

Live by the pre-order, die by the pre-order.  :)

If you can't stand the heat of the pool, then get out.  ;)

How do we know you guys aren't just Avalon B1/B2 owners protecting your hashrate?  ???  ;D  :D

People have tried worse stunts here.

I'm sorry, I apologize. You might be one of those burned pre-order guys. Care to share what happened since I see you're so intent on discouraging others from doing pre-orders at all?

Which I might mention: if miners never did pre-order, no one would have a miner today because these Application Specific Integrated Circuits had to be purposely designed from scratch to be built for this one specific purpose!

This was much too risky and niche for any real VC to take an interest in. I'm imagining such an elevator pitch wouldn't go too well. They eventually cloned the Kickstarter funding route that's all the rage and have taken advantage of the good will of their customers such crowdfunding usually endears.

Intel, AMD, and ARM didn't have any SHA-256 capable ASIC chips in stock for some reason when Avalon & BFL went to bat, which is why we still have this pre-order mess today.  :(

actually... no

only avalon batch 1. that's it (and journalists who got their BFLs)

agreed.

I think our batch 3s will ROI one way or another. In two weeks we mined 20% of what we paid for them. Hopefully Avalon offers a trade in deal for next gen like they did for Icarus/Lancelot customers. The FPGAs were selling for more than what you could mine with it, simply because you could trade it in for value on a purchase of an Avalon ASIC. It is possible we will ROI this way.

Another possibility is SHA256 ALT coins. Although Bitcoin may become unprofitable at some point, perhaps SHA-256 ALT coins will become more popular as people's Bitcoin ASICs become unprofitable. Thus injecting people into the SHA256 ALT coin communities and markets... price likely goes up. Kind of like how Litecoin became way more popular after GPU mining became unprofitable on Bitcoin.

Another possibility is as Bitcoing gets more popular, people with free power start popping out of the woodwork, offering to buy hardware for more than what others are willing to. If I lived in an apartment that offered free power, I know I would buy a rig. You could mine for years and years, and not have to worry about profitability or electrical efficiency.

A lot of things can happen, the future is impossible to tell, but you shouldn't worry too much after hardware has been ordered and it's hashing. We all made the decision to order the hardware, no one made us. It is partially our own fault and everyone should of known this was risky. What Bitcoin investment isn't risky though? Bitcoin in itself is inherently risky due to the wild fluctuations in the price.

if you don't preorder, there will be little competition. you will be stuck with avalon and bfl as the major players. are they who you want to do business with?

Good point. I was both a BFL customer (refunded) and an Avalon customer (delayed). Both of them left a bad taste in my mouth. I want other companies to come in and show them how it's done. These new companies will not be able to get off the ground without help from pre-orders.

Most people don't have millions around to fund R&D/production of a Bitcoin ASIC.

Below are the last 20 posts of "Eve"... I think he/she needs some XanaX and ....relax...



Show us the working Asic Chips please.

We want to see the Asic Chips.

No More Group Buy. Stay Away
      
No More Pre Orders. Please

Don't Join Any Group Buy. Beware and Stay Away. The promoters don't give a shit if your orders has problems. They will Hide inside their Caves and pretend to not know anything.

Just Show US the Asic Chips.

The only thing missing is the Asic Chip, anything else is secondary. Show us the Asic Chips.

Stay Away No Pre Orders Please. Will turn out to be liked Butterfly and Avalon

Yes Please Show us the Asic Chips and the rest can come later

Remember No Pre order. and don't buy if they don't accept credit cards and paypal
It could turn out to be one, since they don't accept credit cards. Stay Away Please. No Pre order.

Yes No More Pre Orders

Yes, we have our internet inside our caves.

Stay Away and Stay Clear of Group Buys and Pre Orders. The promoters only wants to make money out of you.

Could end up like BFL 13 months later

Where is Mr.Abdi? mia? We thought he will come back with some good news like lowest price per gh/s, payment by paypal and credit cards and on time guarantee delivery?
mark my words could even be longer than 13 months or disappear totally into thin air

he is probably still sleeping and thinking what to do next.  

updating his profile on LinkedIn, copy some photos from the web and photo shop them, and other touch up, so they would looks real and not some vapourware.

They were so many new threads on hashfast seems like they are desperate to take your money. beware and stay away. No Pre orders and they don't accept credit cards or Paypal so stay clear.

They are 2 many scams and vendors breaking their promises on pre orders, so don't, don't and DON'T BUY Pre Orders.

I've seen the chip..! If you haven't, check out some serious photos of real already mining chips. (ASICMINER, Avalon, BFL, Bitfury)

Group buys makes it cheaper (probably) and less risky to participate in the mining fever. You should probably next target that those miners -will not- make ROI.

This is why ignore lists exist.

So the real question is, if you don't want to pre-order, why are you pre-ordering?  If someone wants to pre-order, why do you care what someone else wants to do?

How are you forced to pre-order from any company?

Why do you feel compelled to want to control others in what they are able and allowed to do?

Preordering is a choice, not a requirement.  No one is required to preorder an ASIC.

Best quote of the Day :-)

Well if I didnt pre order avalon batch 2 how do I get a faster RIO? Those who can take risk will be rewarded. Ya take it from someone with less than 200 posts telling everyone not to pre order

I think he/she means well, and is trying to forewarn people from being stung by unscrupulous business practices...

you are still without scammer tag here? incredible.

rather than ban pre-orders, I think we need to educate the community that pre-orders are not as appealing and could end up in a negative roi.  I do think that established companies like BFL, Asicminer, Avalon can do away with the pre-order model and have a rolling always in stock order, disable ordering after stock is not available and re-enable ordering system when stock is replenished.  This would guarantee quick shipping times, less customer complaints, less legal issues and also improve companies reputations. 

I think that this whole pre-order SNAFU will sort itself out in the next 6 months - people who have lost money (myself included) have learned and those coming in behind us will be able to educate themselves.  Unless BTC hits an all time high, I think, no HOPE that pre-orders will be a thing of the past and (like you said) we'll be back to 'normal' online purchasing (in stock and available or out of stock, come back later).

Basically just one whole clusterf*ck of a transitionary peiriod.

Only people who preorder will ever make money.

If there was a miner being sold that you could get right now and it was profitable, everyone would buy it, difficulty would rise and it would no longer be profitable.

Only people who take a risk and preorder will ever have a chance of making a profit from mining.

I think it's great that you are telling everyone not to pre-order. Thats means more for me!

It's a gamble, some pre-orders have worked out, some haven't

Pre-orders that were good ideas:

- Avalon Batch 1
- Early Jalapenos
- Avalon batch 2

Bad ideas:

- pretty much anything else from BFL
- Avalon batch 3
- probably Avalon chips, but too early to tell

don't forget scam pre-orders :)

What I think we need is some kind of community authenticated pre-order product check in order to at least set a % of risk as to persons Identity as well as other facts.

However unrealistic to expect, we have lacked transparency with respects manufactures claims. Thus far Bitfury has raised the bar for ASIC details proven prior to taking pre-orders..

Agree

To be fair to eve at least they have nice and short and to the point posts and replies.  Far better than a lot of the windbags around here.

Right on the best way to my message across. Don' Buy if they don't have any stocks.

Early Jalapenos were a terrible idea. People took 20 BTC worth of currency and spent it to wait 11 months and get 8 BTC back from mining.

It it doesn't hash already, with a screenshot posted, I ain't buyin'

Frigging ridiculous. Still waiting for my BFL order, and now the whole Avalon chip fiasco.

Your business along with Avalons is dead. Shouldn't you be preparing for trial?

I have batch 2 Avalon that I received i June I made my money back in 5 days....

Ive been making money ever since. woke up today made more money

shhhh. so did i.  don't tell them you paid with BTC and via a pre-order.

In dollar terms, my Jalapeños have already returned ~3.5x what I paid for them. They funded a K16 (which might have gone sideways) and a Bitfury starter kit (still mostly on track AFAIK). I almost have enough accumulated again to add another H-board to the Bitfury rig before it arrives.

Be on the lookout for the shill and troll from hashfast and cointerra they will say all the positive things and hide the real facts.

Good to know many newbie got my message. Too much Risks and Scams buying pre order.

I have one of the last Avalon Batch #2 (Feb 18) units shipped.  I expect break-even in 3 more weeks.

The Scary thought is not delivering on time. We need to have the Vendors to Guarantee Delivery on Time.

My Avalon is making about 0.8 BTC per day this week, down a lot from the 5 or 6 BTC/day estimated in mid March.  I am in touch with the large amount of income that it could have made in March, April, May, and June.

Almost 10 years ago, I spent a very long time laying out a computer board, making prototype runs, getting the software right.  I posted photographs of operational prototypes, and I tried to collect pre-paid funds to do a cheaper production run.  I did not get the money, and I did not make the run.  No one was angry with me, but no one got a product, and I was effectively unemployed during my development time.

KickStarter is a thriving crowd sourced pre-paid project funding environment, and it is very, very cool.

I am convinced, if Bitsyncom / Avalon had not taken pre-orders, that the angst surrounding them would not exist.  I am also sure that I would not have an Avalon, and that the Avalon units that did sell would be much more expensive.

I am gathering funds now to make another pre-order paid with bitcoin.  I hope enough other people will pre-pay so that the technology growth continues.

Pre Order with No Guarantee of Delivery and No Refund is a dead end.

Agreed. As there are many scams. Let see if kncminer is also...

I swear, I thought the title of this thread was: If you don't have socks available...

Pre Order without using credit cards or Paypal is a BIG RISKS. They will SURELY Ends Up like Avalon and Butterfly that delay and No delivery and you have no recourse to get back your Refund, but only bark and bark or shout and shout in this forum. If you used third party like Paypal or Credit cards you are protected and get refund when they delay or don't delivers.

I would have no problems with pre-orders if they were like an iPhone preorder, as in a release date is posted, so there is a real deadline. That system I am ok with, what I am not ok with is using pre-orders as a vehicle for R&D. I think that future bitcoin miners should demand ownership in the company in return for the risk. This might allow for the miners to have voting rights to have some say in how the company manages the investments made to them and would allow an incompetent CEO to be replaced. Hopefully bitshares will solve that more easily, we shall see...

Either way no original asic company can say that the average customer made more money than just holding bitcoins or buying bitcoins on first day of orders. It's bad press for BTC when orders don't come for months and it makes it look scammy/ponzi/in need of regulation, which hurts the community as a whole.

In the beginning of ASICs, I can understand the need for pre-orders to get the funds to actually create the devices and there was little competition.  The difficulty rate wouldn't change dramatically over a few months.

However, now with the difficulty rate skyrocketing, it's very difficult to know what the rate will be in 3 months when a pre-order to due to be shipped, making it hard to make a good judgment on the ROI.

The rapidly changing difficulty rate means that ASIC vendors will need to start taking orders within a month of the order date so that pricing can be adjusted appropriately for the difficultly level.

I would caution consumers though that our pre-orders are funding large ASIC companies who will eventually have enough money to just built chips and mine for themselves with no incentive to sell the actual devices.  I predict that within the next 2 years that nearly all of the bitcoin hashrate will be provided by large farms from a few ASIC manufacturers rather than individual miners.

I look at the new companies webshops like Cointerra and Hashfast and its direct BTC or Bitpay payments only  :P

Fool me once (BFL) shame on them, Fool me Twice shame on me.

No CC or Paypal with CC then NO CANDY FOR YOU >:(

I'm on wait for CC payment with Bitfury US October order.